Should players change Kamae during a shiai match?

[Landorph]

I'm sure a lot of people have answered this already.. well.. and it's split debate between anyone i surpose..

but i've noticed that some players would change their kame to Chudan or Jodan during a shiai match.. in the same round vs the same opponent. SOme does it really obvious.. and some people don't.

I've ask both Koreans and Japanese kenshi.. and their opinions vary from person to person regardless of their nash.

Q: Should people change stance if they feel necessary or advantagous in the match?

what are the reasons for should or should not...

[SheBear]

I believe that, if it works do it. I'm a bit of a realist (and i do find some kendo rules stupid, but hey).
So yes. It's a test of skill, and some skill comes through judgement.

[JSchmidt]

and i do find some kendo rules stupid

Which ones?

[Stephen]

There's a couple of players from our club that do this, and the three I have in mind are all kyu grades. This is not something encouraged by our instructors, however, they were told prior to the nationals that if they reach a point in a match where they are deadlocked, and/or see a weakness in their opponents kamae they can go for it. It also goes without saying that these players have all practices playing jodan during gigeiko and were obviously confident enough to pull it out during shiai.

I personally feel that one should play one kamae or the other, and soley chudan in kyu shiai (unless there is a specific reason as to why they cannot).

[Landorph]

please elaborate on why you personally feel that way..??

[Stephen]

please elaborate on why you personally feel that way..??

That's a good question actually. The more I think about it the more I realise there's not much logic behind this feeling. I suppose the main reason for this regarding kyu shiai is that generally speaking, anything out of the ordinary will often have some success. This may be an odd way of playing, additional height or playing from alternate kamae. Due to limited experience, other player will generally not know how to deal wit things out of the ordinary. If winning is a priority, then this may seem like a good idea, however, I think there should be a line in the sand where one accepts that while they may loose, they're playing on an even field and are gaining the experience needed for later on. If it become common for kyu players to use both chudan and jodan, if a club wanted any success in shiai they would have to teach both kamae. I can only see this as problematic for most as this is a time when its hard enough to learn the basic skills of chudan.

I have to admit, that I'm not really sold on this line of thinking. In Dan shiai, I wouldn't think as much if someone used a combination of chudan and jodan (such as a couple of the taller australian players) - although they seem to do so a little more selectivley. Their opponents should also have enough experience to be able to deal with this. Hmm..I think I'll have to give this more thought, and am keen to hear what others say. Whatever the case, I think its fair to say we're past the stage where we should simply say its 'impolite' to assume jodan, especially halfway through a match. I also think its important for kendoka to learn and be familiar with both kamae, even if they have no intention of using it - jodan is after all a part of kendo, and we will all eventually have to play an opponent who uses this kamae.

Ok, in the time its taken me to write this i think I've changed my mind a little. I think if a person has trained in alternate stances they should be used much like waza - if your confident why not (although I am still hesitant with regards to kyu shiai for the above reasons)

[tango]

Without getting into the discussion of who should or should not be doing jodan, my opinion:

If you start in chudan, you can move to jodan....
If you are ever in jodan (either start in jodan or move to jodan), then do NOT move back to chudan.

Why? Because jodan is a more aggressive kamae than chudan... so, moving from chudan to jodan = get more aggressive
moving in the opposite direction, from jodan to chudan, = "let me tone it down a bit," "I want to be less aggressive," "I'm too weak to continue using jodan," "I no longer have confidence in my jodan" ---- these are weak/negative kendo concepts...

[Andoru]

I agree with tango 100%

[Halcyon]

Yes, I also agree with tango. Here are some additional guidelines that I mentioned in another thread.
1. If you start in jodan, stay in jodan.
2. If you start in chudan and want to go up into jodan, better to not do it immediately after you lose a point in chudan. It gives the impression that you've lost confidence in your chudan.
3. Go up into jodan during the middle of play to break a stalemate.
4. A good time to move from chudan to jodan is immediately after getting a point in chudan. The message -- I got you in chudan, now I'm going to get you in jodan.

[rainmaker]

Agree with Halcyon, there are no such written rules for these but it is unwritten rules.



Yes, I also agree with tango. Here are some additional guidelines that I mentioned in another thread.
1. If you start in jodan, stay in jodan.
2. If you start in chudan and want to go up into jodan, better to not do it immediately after you lose a point in chudan. It gives the impression that you've lost confidence in your chudan.
3. Go up into jodan during the middle of play to break a stalemate.
4. A good time to move from chudan to jodan is immediately after getting a point in chudan. The message -- I got you in chudan, now I'm going to get you in jodan.

[Neil Gendzwill]

4. A good time to move from chudan to jodan is immediately after getting a point in chudan. The message -- I got you in chudan, now I'm going to get you in jodan.Alternate message - I've got my point, good luck getting it back now.

[Halcyon]

Alternate message - I've got my point, good luck getting it back now.
Yes, indeed. A fine alternate interpretation. :smiley:

[tango]

Yes, I also agree with tango. Here are some additional guidelines that I mentioned in another thread.
1. If you start in jodan, stay in jodan.
2. If you start in chudan and want to go up into jodan, better to not do it immediately after you lose a point in chudan. It gives the impression that you've lost confidence in your chudan.
3. Go up into jodan during the middle of play to break a stalemate.
4. A good time to move from chudan to jodan is immediately after getting a point in chudan. The message -- I got you in chudan, now I'm going to get you in jodan.

Ah.. Paul's #2 above is EXCELLENTLY made. That was something I had forgotten about but have seen others mention it several times around here in the past.

[AlexM]

Yes, I also agree with tango. Here are some additional guidelines that I mentioned in another thread.
1. If you start in jodan, stay in jodan.
2. If you start in chudan and want to go up into jodan, better to not do it immediately after you lose a point in chudan. It gives the impression that you've lost confidence in your chudan.
3. Go up into jodan during the middle of play to break a stalemate.
4. A good time to move from chudan to jodan is immediately after getting a point in chudan. The message -- I got you in chudan, now I'm going to get you in jodan.

I disagree with everything but point number one.

Changing kamae in the middle of a match (not keiko) is classless in my opinion. I've never heard of a high level player doing so and I wouldn't think much of a person's kendo if they did that. Not sure what my justification is other than it would look incredibly stupid (changing kamae, not the justification ;) ).

[A Wadlow]

I disagree with everything but point number one.

Changing kamae in the middle of a match (not keiko) is classless in my opinion. I've never heard of a high level player doing so and I wouldn't think much of a person's kendo if they did that.

err well here is a video of an 8th dan doing it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqjbFYcpxD4

But i think fighting Toda sensei makes people do funny things.

Going for jodan to chudan looks stupid. Going for chudan to jodan again looks stupid unless you can actualy do it, and let say it is after scoring a point, it would make you look very opressive if you do that. Which helps you win. But other wise it makes you look like your not happy with what your doing and have no confidence in your kamae

[samurai80]

I was told that if someone uses jodan, or fights nito, and there is no physical reason why they can't do chudan, that its like they're telling you that their kendo is so much better than yours, they don't have to fight you in chudan. I have actually been told I should be offended if someone uses jodan against me.

[tango]

I was told that if someone uses jodan, or fights nito, and there is no physical reason why they can't do chudan, that its like they're telling you that their kendo is so much better than yours, they don't have to fight you in chudan. I have actually been told I should be offended if someone uses jodan against me.

Just out of curiosity, who told you this?

If you don't want to put it on this thread, you can PM me..

[A Wadlow]

I was told that if someone uses jodan, or fights nito, and there is no physical reason why they can't do chudan, that its like they're telling you that their kendo is so much better than yours, they don't have to fight you in chudan. I have actually been told I should be offended if someone uses jodan against me.

That might possibley be a lie. What about if someone is just better at doing that then chudan? Be wary of someone who tells you what you should be feeling. Isn't it all about doing better kendo than the next guy?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I was told that if someone uses jodan, or fights nito, and there is no physical reason why they can't do chudan, that its like they're telling you that their kendo is so much better than yours, they don't have to fight you in chudan. I have actually been told I should be offended if someone uses jodan against me.There are some sensei who simply don't like jodan or nito. However, if someone is properly doing jodan or nito, then that is their specialty and they should be doing it all the time, through suburi, drills, jigeiko, everything. Asking them to use chudan is breaking their training.

Those people are required by etiquette to ask permission of seniors before assuming the alternate kamae, though.

[enkorat]

Changing kamae in the middle of a match (not keiko) is classless in my opinion. I've never heard of a high level player doing so and I wouldn't think much of a person's kendo if they did that. Not sure what my justification is other than it would look incredibly stupid (changing kamae, not the justification ;) ).

During the exhibition keiko during the lunch break at the last Cleveland tournament, Sugawara sensei of Central Indiana fought Kato sensei (7th dan) of New York (?) in chudan for a bit and then switched to jodan. A few minutes later Kato sensei also went up into jodan. There was collective gasp that rippled through the audience and I think everyone (including myself) sat up a little straighter...

In my humble opinion, it was far from stupid looking... it was pretty cool, I thought.

[AlexM]

During the exhibition keiko during the lunch break at the last Cleveland tournament, Sugawara sensei of Central Indiana fought Kato sensei (7th dan) of New York (?) in chudan for a bit and then switched to jodan. A few minutes later Kato sensei also went up into jodan. There was collective gasp that rippled through the audience and I think everyone (including myself) sat up a little straighter...

In my humble opinion, it was far from stupid looking... it was pretty cool, I thought.

It's not in shiai...

[AlexM]

err well here is a video of an 8th dan doing it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqjbFYcpxD4

But i think fighting Toda sensei makes people do funny things.

Going for jodan to chudan looks stupid. Going for chudan to jodan again looks stupid unless you can actualy do it, and let say it is after scoring a point, it would make you look very opressive if you do that. Which helps you win. But other wise it makes you look like your not happy with what your doing and have no confidence in your kamae

All rules are out the door for nito: Just fight'em till you can't.

Changing kamae in shiai is like saying you don't know what you want to do.

[enkorat]

It's not in shiai...

Yes thats true. But my point is that it was even more remarkable because its an exhibition keiko. If an exhibition keiko is supposed to be an exemplar for the rest of us lower ranking members, indeed in front of members of two regional federations, if it something "not" to be done or encouraged, why was it done during what is considered to be an instructional example for the rest of us, while we were all watching?

I simply wanted to offer a recent example where a high ranking sensei did switch kamaes. I am certainly not going to critique a 7th dan in any sort of way on a public forum.

Personally I don't care what kamae my opponent fights in. One of my senseis fights regularly in jodan, and a sempai fights nito, so I'm not going to be intimidated by the novelty factor. If someone tried fighting in waki or hasso, maybe then I'll be weirded out...

[A Wadlow]

An exibition is exactly that. A demonstration of what there is. The guy could walk of half way through, get a shoto and start bashing away in nito and everyone would smile, clap and think "oh so thats how it works". Its not shiai, or even jigeiko.

[AlexM]

Yes thats true. But my point is that it was even more remarkable because its an exhibition keiko. If an exhibition keiko is supposed to be an exemplar for the rest of us lower ranking members (...)

Ditto what Wadlow said...

Exhibition keiko are not shiai. Someone changing kamae in jigeiko or any keiko is ok. Hell, I don't care if people ask permission. It's also practically expected from someone like Sugawara-sensei (If he's the guy I'm thinking about).

But, once again, changing kamae shiai looks ridiculous: Like you don't know what you want to do.

[Kingofmyrrh]

But, once again, changing kamae shiai looks ridiculous: Like you don't know what you want to do.

Both Chiba sensei and Toda sensei (both AJKC winners) changed from chudan to jodan mid-match during their competitive careers. To start in jodan was considered poor manners at the time.

[D'Artagnan]

I have actually been told I should be offended if someone uses jodan against me.

That's just plain ridiculous

[A Wadlow]

Both Chiba sensei and Toda sensei (both AJKC winners) changed from chudan to jodan mid-match during their competitive careers. To start in jodan was considered poor manners at the time.

I do believe that both of them are 8th dans now. I don't think it really applies to them, especialy if it is out of manners. But no one minds if you fight them in Jodan now, unless they can't fight it:smiley:.

Also Chiba and Toda are very very good at both kamae. Doing anything but chudan isn't a good idea anyway unless your experienced enough let alone changing to a kamae that you are probably not very good at in the middle of shiai. Someone with experience would break it and distroy you. Jodan is not fun or easy. Sticking to learning how to nail someone in the main kamae you practice in and you won't need to change.

[AlexM]

Both Chiba sensei and Toda sensei (both AJKC winners) changed from chudan to jodan mid-match during their competitive careers. To start in jodan was considered poor manners at the time.

Chiba who? Never heard of him... can he do jodan?

(Pause for laughter)

As you pointed out, both Chiba and Toda were competitive twenty to thirty years ago. Quite alot of water as flowed under the bridge since then and, as you describe it, they did so out of courtesy according to the practice of the times.

Also, there is the bad-ass factor with both of them: When you win the All-Japan's three times in your career, like that Chiba dude I've never heard of, you can take whatever the hell kamae you want. At that point, even if you look ridiculous, it's kind of hard to convince others that you are... ;)

The only time I have seen people change kamae in shiai they have been beginners. I'll let you guess the results.

[Andoru]

Haha that reminds me of the video I once saw of a shiai in Japan in which a cocky american kid (I think he's american) assumed wakigamae and fell on his face when executing the first cut from that kamae. I still laugh about it whenever I think back. :D

[ben]

One of the semi-finals of the senior division of the 32AKC saw two jodan specialists face of in ai-jodan. There was that ripple went through the audience and it was very exciting at first. However ai-jodan is has few openings. Really only kote and do, so it can lead to a stalemate. However there was nothing uncouth or reprehensible in these two senshu taking jodan against each other. It was perfectly appropriate.

b

[Andoru]

That was an interesting match because one of the senshu is shorter than the other one. From ai-jodan perspective the maai became critical so that was an exciting match.

[Kingofmyrrh]

I do believe that both of them are 8th dans now. I don't think it really applies to them, especialy if it is out of manners. But no one minds if you fight them in Jodan now, unless they can't fight it:smiley:.

Also Chiba and Toda are very very good at both kamae. Doing anything but chudan isn't a good idea anyway unless your experienced enough let alone changing to a kamae that you are probably not very good at in the middle of shiai. Someone with experience would break it and distroy you. Jodan is not fun or easy. Sticking to learning how to nail someone in the main kamae you practice in and you won't need to change.

It was standard manners for everyone back then. Nothing to do with the fact that they are bad boys. As i hear it, the custom crumbled as people became obsessed with winning high school tournaments and started putting in jodan players just to grab draws... obviously this strategy isn't very good if you have to first get a point from chudan before you can raise up.

Personally I couldn't care less what my opponent does, it's all good practice for me. I know more than a couple of pretty high ranked people who switch as they see fit. No problem if they're having fun, right? I think AlexM needs to get out more...

[SheBear]

Which ones?

no hitting while the opponent has their back on you. If they're stupid enough to turn their back on an opponent, maybe they deserve it.

not being allowed to tsuki until you're a dan. I realise the tsuki is easly stuffed up and can be dangerous and you should not be allowed to do it in tournaments as a beginner, but I wouldn't go as far as to ban it until you're a dan grade.

I'm sure someone will rebut me and explain why these rules are in place, but it's just how i feel.

[SheBear]

as for kamae, I'm not really sure anymore! I'm just going to stick to reading people's posts, hopefully I'll form a more solid opinion and reason :normal:

[ahmed61086]

Just this past tournament, I was in my 4th or 5th match against a sempai from my Dojang, and I know his style, so I did the whole match in Jodan, even though I had done my previous matches in Chudan. Why?

Because I knew his kendo, and hes realy sneaky when he is against chudan, but he can't do any of those sneaky things when I am in jodan. I won 2-0. Other than that, I didn't realy switch back and forth, if I can remember correctly.

[enkorat]

no hitting while the opponent has their back on you. If they're stupid enough to turn their back on an opponent, maybe they deserve it.

not being allowed to tsuki until you're a dan. I realise the tsuki is easly stuffed up and can be dangerous and you should not be allowed to do it in tournaments as a beginner, but I wouldn't go as far as to ban it until you're a dan grade.

I'm sure someone will rebut me and explain why these rules are in place, but it's just how i feel.

Please do not take offense to my question, but may I inquire how long you have been doing kendo, and if you have had an opportunity to interact with many beginners?

I'd like to have some background information before I frame my reply.

[SheBear]

Please do not take offense to my question, but may I inquire how long you have been doing kendo, and if you have had an opportunity to interact with many beginners?

I'd like to have some background information before I frame my reply.

o not very long so feel free to barrate me :grin:
kendo, since the beginning of this year.

i do take iaido as well, and weapons, so I'm probably biased as a result of this. I have been doing iai and weapons for just over two years now and my tsuki is fine (weapons). I wasn't allowed to do it until not long ago, but can now do it safely. I have, however, had a beginner (who was told explicitly not to tsuki in drills) almost stick his bokken through my throat during a drill - in a drill that didn't even HAVE a tsuki technique in it! :dead:
OK I'm rambling.

I haven't done either of this things for all that long, but I do observe others, and at the moment I just can't help feeling as I do. Maybe that will change.

[enkorat]

o not very long so feel free to barrate me :grin:
kendo, since the beginning of this year.

i do take iaido as well, and weapons, so I'm probably biased as a result of this. I have been doing iai and weapons for just over two years now and my tsuki is fine (weapons). I wasn't allowed to do it until not long ago, but can now do it safely. I have, however, had a beginner (who was told explicitly not to tsuki in drills) almost stick his bokken through my throat during a drill - in a drill that didn't even HAVE a tsuki technique in it! :dead:
OK I'm rambling.

I haven't done either of this things for all that long, but I do observe others, and at the moment I just can't help feeling as I do. Maybe that will change.

Ah okay, I understand a bit better now. I had a feeling it was something like that.

My own impression and understanding is that many of the rules and conventions that exist in kendo exist primarily for safety. Although often times its easier to say "do this" because of respect, tradition, or "less talking more practice" to a beginner, I've thought about most of the rules away from practice and realized that most of our "rules" are based on a need for safety.

I think in iaido you are a little freer, as you don't have to deal with the unpredictability of an opponent of unknown skill as often.

As for tsuki in mudansha shiai, I think you'll get a better understanding when you have had the joyful opportunity to be a motodachi for tsuki practice with a number of beginners. One of my senseis also shares the opinion that learning tsuki (versus doing tsuki in shiai) should not be restricted to yudansha. Its a fun day. Really!

The other thing is that for the most part in Japan, only children are mudansha, and children's bogu doesn't come with the steel plate behind the tsuki.

The third thing to consider is that the mudansha division in a tournament can be anything from "oh you got bogu last week, I signed you up for tournament and you're going" to "I don't believe in testing but I've been doing kendo for... a ...while..." So you can guess what some mudansha matches end up looking like, and then you can imagine trying to throw tsuki into the mix.

As for hitting in the back of the head, I've had that happen to me a few times from beginners. Again I'd approach it from the angle of safety. The back of the head isn't very well protected, even though the top is. The problem is that for many people (myself included), the angle of the shinai hitting the men isn't quite right all the time. If you were hitting head-on at that angle, that's the situation where you end up hitting the metal bars on the men. Replicate this same hit on the back of the head, and you end up hitting directly on the exposed back of the head.

I suppose from the philosophical angle, the reason why I might have my back to you is that I've gone through after hitting, and in my mind your dead and you don't matter anymore. To not go through means that I've doubted my strike, choked the power of my strike, and killed my zanshin, which then invalidates whatever point I would have gotten.

Does that make sense?

[SheBear]

yes, it makes perfect sense :spchless: thanks
I'm still undecided about kamae though. I'll just sit and read.

[DCPan]

2. If you start in chudan and want to go up into jodan, better to not do it immediately after you lose a point in chudan. It gives the impression that you've lost confidence in your chudan.

Hmm...one of my friends did exactly just that at Steveston either last year or the year before last in the sandan division.

He lost the first point. Took jodan and got the point back. Did the final point in chudan. Can't remember whether he won or lost though....

IMHO, if you have time to worry about it during shiai, you are thinking too much.

[tango]

Also Chiba and Toda are very very good at both kamae. Doing anything but chudan isn't a good idea anyway unless your experienced enough let alone changing to a kamae that you are probably not very good at in the middle of shiai. Someone with experience would break it and distroy you. Jodan is not fun or easy. Sticking to learning how to nail someone in the main kamae you practice in and you won't need to change.

My opinion, what I've bolded from your response above is very true.

Bottom line -- unless you KNOW how to play jodan, then don't even think about leaving chudan.

[The great I AM]

I have actually been told I should be offended if someone uses jodan against me.This is the silliest thing I've read for a while.

Its up there with being told that a particular someone had said that one of my students should stick to chudan for a good few years instead of doing jodan, knowing full well that the person in question has a particular disability that means doing jodan or doing no kendo. Both of these statements are exactly the same in my book: bloody stupid and totally ill thought.

[JoDuncan]

I asked my Sensei about hasso and why you don't see it in shinai kendo.

His answer was that because it's more of a street-fighter kamae and gives limited kendo point scoring opportunity. He added in one shiai he saw a new comer to kendo upon starting in chudan he went into hasso, a few seconds later he was in waki, a few more seconds to gedan, another few to jodan... both migi and hidari. Must have been funny to watch.
"Look what i've learned!"
Good on him giving it a go at least.

Chudan should be ranked 1st, 2nd and 3rd in your top 3 kamae choices.

[Halcyon]

Hmm...one of my friends did exactly just that at Steveston either last year or the year before last in the sandan division.

He lost the first point. Took jodan and got the point back. Did the final point in chudan. Can't remember whether he won or lost though....

IMHO, if you have time to worry about it during shiai, you are thinking too much.
Quite true. I think a lot of folks may be getting a bit hung up on the kamae change issue. In shiai, the vast majority of jodan players will start in jodan and stay in jodan. Same for chudan. The bottom line is you do what works for you. But having said that, shiai does not exist in a vacuum divorced from all the other traditions of kendo. The things I've mentioned are guidelines, not rules. It's what many sensei generally regard as standard operating procedure, so to speak. Don't take my word for it. Ask your own sensei their opinions when you go out to the second dojo for a drink or something.

[Landorph]

This post is running away from "should u change stance in a shiai" to Jodan is good or not...
Cos recently I've versed an opponent, he lost a ippon in his chudan and went to Jodan after. Although he didn't manage to score on me, but prevented me scoring a second. I'd say if I was a lesser experienced player, he would have definately gotten that ippon back or even won the bout.

I watched this 100 kote video, and these are all very good players. The person who did a kote didn't move to jodan after a point or waited for a while. He was in chudan, the other semed him, he stepped back and when straight up to Jodan, as he's steping back the other kenshi tried to hit men forward, and he's jodan came down whilst he's resetting from the step back, and hit kote. (ippon).

Hence the question here is, not hodding onto Jodan and looking silly, if the opportunity allows it.. should one change to any kamae that will exploit opponents weakness and score an ippon in a shiai, this includes hasso waki gedan etc etc.. knowing all... they all part of kendo kata, and that is fundementals of kendo.

If changing kamae is restricted or flamed upon.. then it might as well say the fundations of kendo isn't right, ppl should just do what is now commonly accepted, and I see kendo in 50 years will just be chudan and small men or kote. like olympic sport. (i mean come on.. they've already took away kicking and mune tsuki and pushing and throwing) - it's still a MA yet.

[Halcyon]

I asked my Sensei about hasso and why you don't see it in shinai kendo.
You actually do see hasso quite a bit in jigeiko and in shiai, but only as a transitional kamae. After you hit kote and you close the distance with your opponent, you will be in gyaku hasso. Being in gyaku hasso allows you to attempt some followup waza if necessary.

[JoDuncan]

Gyaku hasso... pardon my ignorance but my kendo terminology is a bit aikified. Is this "standard hasso" or more like what i've heard termed "nuki do" or similarly the pseudo hidari hasso of katsugi....

I'm not sure if i've made that pretentious enough....

emmm, wot wot wot.

Done.

(think i heard "nuki do" being referred to in the kamae sense in Ozawa Sensei's book.)

[tango]

nuki dou is a waza, not a kamae.

[tango]

I was told that if someone uses jodan, or fights nito, and there is no physical reason why they can't do chudan, that its like they're telling you that their kendo is so much better than yours, they don't have to fight you in chudan. I have actually been told I should be offended if someone uses jodan against me.

I'm serious, by the way.

I would really like to know who told you this, just for my own personal information. Would you please PM me?

[JoDuncan]

nuki dou is a waza, not a kamae.

Yes. I know this; i'll read the bit of the book tonight and post what it says.

[tango]

Ok, sorry.. guess I'm just misunderstanding what you're saying..

[enkorat]

This post is running away from "should u change stance in a shiai" to Jodan is good or not... [...]

Hence the question here is, not hodding onto Jodan and looking silly, if the opportunity allows it.. should one change to any kamae that will exploit opponents weakness and score an ippon in a shiai, this includes hasso waki gedan etc etc.. knowing all... they all part of kendo kata, and that is fundementals of kendo.

If changing kamae is restricted or flamed upon.. then it might as well say the fundations of kendo isn't right, ppl should just do what is now commonly accepted, and I see kendo in 50 years will just be chudan and small men or kote. like olympic sport. (i mean come on.. they've already took away kicking and mune tsuki and pushing and throwing) - it's still a MA yet.

So I suppose my question would be more fundamental, since I don't fight in jodan. I'm curious as to what are the actual weaknesses in an opponent that could be exploited by a change from chudan to jodan?

The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are either an opponent who is hesitant/passive or has a weak chudan no kamae...

There is also the possibility that becoming "offended" because of jodan is part of the mental "off-balancing" intended by the person who switches....

I thought that hasso as a stand alone kamae isn't really used because its a specialized kamae for a situation where you have relatively low clearance, and isn't too relevent in a shiaijo. I have heard that people use hasso as a transitional kamae when they normally fight in jodan... I also thought that waki isn't used because generally its used to disguise the sword from a certain distance away, and again isn't too relevant in a shiai-jo because the opportunity to be that far away from an opponent doesn't arise too often. I was also told that waki is very much an "all or nothing" strike and you're not left with much if you miss....

[Halcyon]

Gyaku hasso... pardon my ignorance but my kendo terminology is a bit aikified. Is this "standard hasso" or more like what i've heard termed "nuki do" or similarly the pseudo hidari hasso of katsugi....
Gyaku hasso is reverse hasso-no-kamae, that is, your shinai will be on your left side, fairly vertical, with tsuba at about mouth height, though in kendo, it tends to be a little lower. And as I said, it's a transitional kamae in kendo.

[tango]

So I suppose my question would be more fundamental, since I don't fight in jodan. I'm curious as to what are the actual weaknesses in an opponent that could be exploited by a change from chudan to jodan?

Aside from the mental aspects of it which you mention, I'm not sure your question can be answered, based on how the it's phrased.
As I understand your question, I'd say you may not know what weaknesses could be exploited until after you've gone into jodan.


I have heard that people use hasso as a transitional kamae when they normally fight in jodan...

As much as my opinion counts for anything, I wouldn't even call it a "transitional kamae"... I just call it a "transition".... I don't think -- but I'm not sure -- than anyone making the transition has the intent of holding hasso as kamae, although it seems I've seen video of people pausing at length during the transition and actually attacking from that position (and I'm not talking about katsugi waza)...


I also thought that waki isn't used because generally its used to disguise the sword from a certain distance away, and again isn't too relevant in a shiai-jo because the opportunity to be that far away from an opponent doesn't arise too often. I was also told that waki is very much an "all or nothing" strike and you're not left with much if you miss....

anybody who has the gall to actually try waki in shiai deserves to get 100 katate tsuki to the bicep (or armpit, if possible), IMO.

[JoDuncan]

Waki no kamae has no place in shinai kendo.

[satsumaruma]

I've come to this late - apologies.

Once was fencing Toaster and went into TSKSR kamae - Sasa Gakura. which was met by total bemusement by the young whippersnapper of the screeching kiai. So I just popped her a nice yokomen.

Sometimes doing something out of the ordinary can throw off an opponents concentration quite effectively. Don't try it twice mind 'cos you just get battered.

[Manuka]

I will preface this by saying I am extremely low on the Kendo ladder.

I would expect that in Shiai I would use my strongest kamae, I am being judged so I would rather be judged on my strengths.

When I am testing for a high rank, perhaps it would be expected that I should be strong in several areas, and I should demonstrate that, that may require me to change kamae's to show that I was proficient in them.

To open in Jodan is making a statement to your opponent, and like flashy bogu, you better have the skill to back up that statement or you look a fool.

In an earlier thread I had a sidebar with Halcyon on changing kamae during competition. There I argued that if one is losing (or facing an opponent to who you have always lost) then you have nothing to lose and probably should change. This may get you through that one match, probably not, but the loser should never continue a losing strategy, always try to change.
Likewise when winning you should never change. This is specifically competition though, not a testing for skill/rank situation.

[DCPan]

So I suppose my question would be more fundamental, since I don't fight in jodan. I'm curious as to what are the actual weaknesses in an opponent that could be exploited by a change from chudan to jodan?

Well, just to give one example...if your opponent likes to kill the sword before he strikes, by going to jodan, he can't "physically" kill the center first...thus removing him from his forte.

This is actually why I use to like doing jodan against nito, as it makes the shoto somewhat less useful on the attacking end of things (i.e. he can't hold your kamae down with his shoto as he whacks you)

Besides, changing kamae usually shakes things up...an acquiantance of mine got me to try nurf weapons ala SCA...I picked something similar to shinai...it's amazing to find out how one isn't as flexible as one thinks when it comes to adjusting to different kamae....

[Neil Gendzwill]

When I am testing for a high rank, perhaps it would be expected that I should be strong in several areas, and I should demonstrate that, that may require me to change kamae's to show that I was proficient in them.Nope..........

[DCPan]

But having said that, shiai does not exist in a vacuum divorced from all the other traditions of kendo. The things I've mentioned are guidelines, not rules. It's what many sensei generally regard as standard operating procedure, so to speak.

LOL, I'm not disagreeing with you in the sense that I've heard the same guidelines before.

Sometimes though, you gotta wonder about how much guidelines mean to you.

How many people have heard that there is no doh from jodan? What is the first thing Seike did in the match against USA? Gyaku-Doh.

How many people have heard that jodan exemplifies the kendo ideal of one strike? How many people have seen Shodai's 5 rensoku katate men?

If adhering to a guidelines.restrictions gives you more convinction to your kendo, more power to you...if it is something that just ties your hands up....

In other words, I think whether or not you change kamae and whether or not that affects you depends on how you tie your self-image to your kamae.

YMMV

[AlexM]

No problem if they're having fun, right? I think AlexM needs to get out more...

I object to that characterization! Why, just the other month... it must have been December... I left my house for a reason other than work or kendo. I believe it had something to do with some kind of pagan ritual involving the birth of their saviour or something.

[Sparv]

You buy your food by Internet?

[Kingofmyrrh]

It's a long winter up in Quebec! :)

[JoDuncan]

Ok, sorry.. guess I'm just misunderstanding what you're saying..


Tango:

I read the page in Ozawa Sense's book

P112, nanahonme kendo kata.

"Step forward to the right with your right foot and at the same time raise the bokken up to a level of your left shoulder, holding a posture of nuki do"

That's what I was meaning. I am sure you can understand my newbie confusion.. when Ozawa says something about kendo I pretty much assume that to be gospel... but i' think the addresss for the taisedokai in the dojo listings is wrong ;)

Many thanks

[Neil Gendzwill]

It's just unfortunate translation or something. What Ozawa-sensei meant to say is hold a posture similar to the way you look during the execution of nuki-doh.

[JoDuncan]

Word.

Thought i'd show the reference none the less.

It's not important, was never the question. I was using it as a similar vehicle of visualisation.

[Landorph]

Waki no kamae has no place in shinai kendo.

Then why do I see alot of kenshi in shiai.. after hitting hiki kote.. while zanshin backwards it's a wakki in a sense.. with the shinai pointing to either left or right behind going backwards. If opponent are to chase.. then they are basically initiating an attack from waki position ...

although it is not stationary like the ones you see in kata and movies.. i mean come on.. in actual kendo.. I dont think any kamae is absolutely stationary.. in a shiai.. even chudan or jodan.. (unlike that of kata or in movies.) ..

[JoDuncan]

Then why do I see alot of kenshi in shiai.. after hitting hiki kote.. while zanshin backwards it's a wakki in a sense.. with the shinai pointing to either left or right behind going backwards. If opponent are to chase.. then they are basically initiating an attack from waki position ...

although it is not stationary like the ones you see in kata and movies.. i mean come on.. in actual kendo.. I dont think any kamae is absolutely stationary.. in a shiai.. even chudan or jodan.. (unlike that of kata or in movies.) ..


I'm trying to get why / how one would go into something like waki no kamae from hiki kote. I can't visualise it, nor can i rationalise it. Wouldn't you go into chudan from hiki kote for ippon, like you would go into jodan from hiki men?

I'm not understanding you here; can you explain please.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

I think he meant, to assume a position in which the kensaki is pointing backwards with the shinai placed at one side of the body, right or left.

[JoDuncan]

My hiki waza are pretty shite to be honest. Is that how you back off from hiki kote? I've never seen it done like that.

totally confused...

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

I think it´s not how you´re supposed to do it, but you will find many people doing zanshin after a hote hit like that, anyway, from what I´ve seen, that´s mainly a kumdo tendency as in kendo people tendo to raise the kensaki instead of moving it backwards.

[ahmed61086]

;264014']I think it´s not how you´re supposed to do it, but you will find many people doing zanshin after a hote hit like that, anyway, from what I´ve seen, that´s mainly a kumdo tendency as in kendo people tendo to raise the kensaki instead of moving it backwards.

Hmmm, I don't realy think its just a kumdo tendency, Ive seen it done at all levels from many different dojos/dojangs.

I personally come back to chudan after hiki kote, but I do the "waki" thingy sometimes after debana kote or kote uchi, because you realy can't bring your shinia back to chudan in that position, so its only natural.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

Hmmm, I don't realy think its just a kumdo tendency, Ive seen it done at all levels from many different dojos/dojangs.

I personally come back to chudan after hiki kote, but I do the "waki" thingy sometimes after debana kote or kote uchi, because you realy can't bring your shinia back to chudan in that position, so its only natural.

yeah I agree that it happens everywhere, but I´v seen it more often in kumdo players than kendo.

[ahmed61086]

;264022']yeah I agree that it happens everywhere, but I´v seen it more often in kumdo players than kendo.

Your probably right, now that I think about it.

[Ookami7]

Alright, throw in my 2cents here. Personally I like to switch between kamae during jigeiko time and although I haven`t used them in tournament I probably would. When I am practicing w/ my J.R. High students in Japan, I switch it up alot. The one I usally go for is gedan! Thats because I wear glasses, but don`t wear them when I`m in bogu therefore kote is the easist target for me to see. My kote is fairly strong so I have a tendency to switch into gedan. I also once in a while will use Jodan and hasso, but my hasso sucks. Now the rule of thumb I use is that if you are practicing with a Sensei you never switch kamae espcially when low level/ranking. It is respect for the sensei and also you still need learn alot more about basic strikes, kamae, waza etc. Now against a ni dan, san dan, maybe even a yondan. no prob. But appoglise before switching to show respect. The one exception is if it is your reg dojo, your senseis know that you like to switch kamae and are fine with it. Anyways thats what I go by. And yes I want to try gedan in taikai sometime. Got to see my first Japanese taikai and was fun. Saw tsuki and jodan used, but no gedan so was kinda bummed! My Jr High kendo team, 3 of the boys made it to 3rd round before being eleminated. Not bad considering this is only the 2nd yr for the schools kendo club!
mata, Ookami yori / Jeff

[JoDuncan]

I think I almost get what you are talking about wrt waki from hiki kote...

Does it have similar form to the position of shinai in katsugi waza but kensen pointing slightly backwards?
I still can't think why you'd fully waki-it i.e. have the kensen below the horizontal...

[ahmed61086]

I think I almost get what you are talking about wrt waki from hiki kote...

Does it have similar form to the position of shinai in katsugi waza but kensen pointing slightly backwards?
I still can't think why you'd fully waki-it i.e. have the kensen below the horizontal...

Its not a full waki, its just like going into Jodan after hiki men. If you watch some videos of japan kendo you will see after kote the kensen brought up and allmost slightly back. But you will also see some people over take it a little further with the zanshin and bring the kensen farther back. It can actually help and keep away an opponent, because it can help make them feel insecure about coming any closer untill the aite goes back into chudan.

[JoDuncan]

I saw Miyazaki do a hiki-kote and move the shinai back just like how i described. I think that's where my confusion was sorted.

Cheers!

[JByrd]

I think I almost get what you are talking about wrt waki from hiki kote...

Does it have similar form to the position of shinai in katsugi waza but kensen pointing slightly backwards?
I still can't think why you'd fully waki-it i.e. have the kensen below the horizontal...

A single kote strike is an easy technique to counter, so when I do it, I try to close in quickly to deny my opponent that opportunity. If I hit a straight kote, my tip would poke him in the body, preventing me from closing in. The solution is to move my tip slightly to the left after the strike, just enough to clear his body and allow me to close in. As I close in and assume a posture better suited for tsuba-zeriai, my tip comes back, and my shinai assumes a more vertical position. At least, that's how I see it.

I don't see a reason to lower the tip when retreating, maybe it's just an exaggeration of zanshin.

[JByrd]

I don't see a reason to lower the tip when retreating, maybe it's just an exaggeration of zanshin.

Oops, I missed the 5 minute edit window. I meant to say that I don't see a reason to move the tip when retreating (lower or raise it). It would seem safest to keep it straight on their center.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

by the way I don´t think every single position someone takes in a shiai or keiko is a kamae, as I don´t think this is wakigamae either, as JByrd says it´s mostly a move made to prevent accidents or to make things more simple, as the fact of lowering the kensen is not necessarily gedan, I think the point is chudan - jodan change during a shiai, like one of the taipei players at the WKC.

[Kendoka]

I agree with tango 100%

Think about nihon kendo kata #6 and what happens.

[DCPan]

Its not a full waki, its just like going into Jodan after hiki men. If you watch some videos of japan kendo you will see after kote the kensen brought up and allmost slightly back. But you will also see some people over take it a little further with the zanshin and bring the kensen farther back. It can actually help and keep away an opponent, because it can help make them feel insecure about coming any closer untill the aite goes back into chudan.

I think what you are referring to is closest to gyaku-hasso....

[JByrd]

I thought about it some more, and maybe there is a practical reason to pull the hands back in after striking kote, and while retreating: To prevent one's opponent from countering using kote-kaeshi-kote.

[tango]

I said:


If you are ever in jodan (either start in jodan or move to jodan), then do NOT move back to chudan.

Why? Because jodan is a more aggressive kamae than chudan... so, moving from chudan to jodan = get more aggressive
moving in the opposite direction, from jodan to chudan, = "let me tone it down a bit," "I want to be less aggressive," "I'm too weak to continue using jodan," "I no longer have confidence in my jodan" ---- these are weak/negative kendo concepts...

Andou said:

I agree with tango 100%


And you said:

Think about nihon kendo kata #6 and what happens.

CAN a guy switch from jodan to chudan in the middle of shiai? Sure, of course he can. But as has been previously noted in this thread (I think), there is an "unwritten rule" that once you go to jodan, you do not go back to chudan.
You can increase/escalate pressure, but it makes no sense to decrease pressure.
So... of course one CAN change from jodan to chudan in the middle of a match, but it would not surprise me at all if some shimpan would then score no points for the guy who did it. Guess it depends on what division it happens in and who the shimpan are. But I digress...

The whole idea of switching from jodan back to chudan is, in my opinion, an action which does NOT jive with the concept of "nobility in kendo."

"Nobility" would seem to dictate (again, just my opinion) that once you adopt a more aggressive kamae (jodan), then you STICK with it. Again, changing from chudan to jodan --- maybe not too terribly an issue when it comes to shiai-geiko, because you're moving to a more aggressive kamae.. and really, I'm purposefully avoiding the argument about respect/disrespect of whipping it out against a higher ranking player in jigeiko. Increasing aggression, increasing voice, increasing attack, escalating pressure --- these are kendo concepts which make sense.

But the idea of DE-ESCALATING aggression (moving DOWN from jodan to chudan) seems to be a foreign concept in kendo. Decreasing attack, decreasing kamae, decreasing pressure... to me, this "decreasing" is NOT KENDO.

There is no question that jodan is an ESCALATION of aggression from chudan, in the exact same way that pointing a pistol at someone with your finger on the trigger is an INCREASE in aggression from having the pistol in its holster on your hip. How do I make you feel less threatened when I stop pointing my gun at you and simply put it back in its holster? ..because that's akin to what happens when you switch from jodan to chudan.

Quite frankly, I really fail to see how kendo kata #6 has anything to do with the overall concept of what is being discussed in this thread.

Keep in mind that these rumblings are only from a 3.dan perspective, so take it with a grain of salt.

[DCPan]

The whole idea of switching from jodan back to chudan is, in my opinion, an action which does NOT jive with the concept of "nobility in kendo."

But the idea of DE-ESCALATING aggression (moving DOWN from jodan to chudan) seems to be a foreign concept in kendo. Decreasing attack, decreasing kamae, decreasing pressure... to me, this "decreasing" is NOT KENDO.

Just to play Devil's Advocate...usually, people move back to chudan because the expected ESCALATION didn't quite happen... :D

YMMV

[Ignatz]

I have been told at seminars that a point is a point. It is not less of a point because you switched from jogan kamae anymore than it is less of a point because it is a godan fighting a shodan.

If shimpan are following "unwritten rules" they should not be shimpan.

[Paburo]

I thought about it some more, and maybe there is a practical reason to pull the hands back in after striking kote, and while retreating: To prevent one's opponent from countering using kote-kaeshi-kote.
there is a very practical reason for that i think yeaaah. in fact, in my last tournament i got an ippon off a hiki kote, and right after i hit my opponent he went running like crazy after me trying to hit my kote all through the shiaijo (it seemed to me like he attempted kote 2 or 3 times in that lapse of time!), but he couldn't catch me hehehe :D i did the gyaku hasso position you mention to avoid him getting my kote and killing my zanshin. if i'd went back to chudan in that moment then he would had most probably hit my kote...

well, my english sucks so if you'd rather see it on youtube than figure out my lousy explanation it's here... around min 4:10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAH7IHsIboM&feature=PlayList&p=A81EC35A7470004F&index=13)

OTOH, i don't share tango's view on switching kamaes during a match. especially the part where he says shimpan shouldnt or wouldnt award ippon after switching back to chudan and that doing this is something un-noble and un-kendoish.

imho, i think that as long as you keep it safe and play it fair, any strategy is valid in shiai. if you have enough confidence in the strenght of both of your kamae, and that you can and will be able to score using either, i think you should switch as you please and as you see fit. that would really annoy and discomfort an opponent off! when you're doing jodan, you're sort of switching kamae all the time anyway, in tsuba zeriai and when retreating... until you have enough maai to safely raise back to jodan. so, i don't personally see where is the poor sportmanship or dishonour in it. a great ippon is a great ippon either from jodan or chudan.

cheers.

[DCPan]

I have been told at seminars that a point is a point. It is not less of a point because you switched from jogan kamae anymore than it is less of a point because it is a godan fighting a shodan.

If shimpan are following "unwritten rules" they should not be shimpan.

Hi Ignatz,

Thanks for the opening as you’ve got me thinking about something that I’ve been wondering for a while about now.

What I am taught now is that the judges’ jobs are to give points in a way that is clear to the participants and the audience. So, you need to be consistent, fair, and impartial. That makes perfect sense and that’s what I “strive” to do right now.

However, I’ve been told as well, by some folks that I could at best loosely term as “old school” back when I first started, that the judge’s job is to promote the kind of kendo you want to see, as what you allow, you teach. So, rather than viewing shiai as competition, it is viewed as a different kind of “training” ground. In this particular paradigm, the objective isn’t so much to be fair as to provide feedback. So, style reasons may play more of a role in whether a point is giving or not. While I am hard-pressed to give you a clear example, perhaps the scenario you’d see this play out of the most is in how far you allow the participants to “rough-up” each other before something is done about it. With this group, their thought is “If your judging is such that the causal audience can understand, you don’t really need to be there.”

My thoughts on the matter currently is this. I consider kendo as means through which I could connect with others. So, when your vocabulary differs from other people, it is simply exclusionary and not very nice. I recently visited a dojo that just had to do “everything” differently, even kirikaeshi. So, instead of spending the time practicing, myself and several other guests spent most of the time waiting and seeing what other people are doing before proceeding. I simply did not see the value of not telling people how many times an exercise is done before one rotates. It’s one thing if I’m the only guest as it’d be a simple matter to catch what others are doing and just follow along by peripheral vision. It is quite another matter to do everything differently, when more than half the people on the floor are guests who are unfamiliar with this particular place’s protocol.

So yeah, no playing by “unwritten rules” for me, as I don’t like being judged by standards that I maybe unaware of and do not necessarily agree with.

YMMV

[AlexM]

If shimpan are following "unwritten rules" they should not be shimpan.

I have been told of at least one unwritten rule in shimpaning: Don't renounce to judge if the point scored or not scored was a men-uchi. On men-uchi you either believe it was ippon or not, no cop-outs.

Also, in reference to DCPan's post, I don't think the judges have any obligation towards the audience. The audience doesn't matter at all: The judges should (in a perfect world) just validate what the two fencers already know (i.e. who won and who lost).

Playing to the audience is what other activities (like judo) do to become popular and "easy" to understand: That's when they stop being budo and become full-fledged sports.

But he right about the shimpan's having the discretion to use the match as a learning tool. In the shiaijo the shimpan rule... just be ready to back-up your decisions.

[Neil Gendzwill]

So yeah, no playing by “unwritten rules” for me, as I don’t like being judged by standards that I maybe unaware of and do not necessarily agree with.There's quite a few unwritten rules. The IKF shimpan guidelines don't cover every situation. That's partly why we need to have shimpan seminars, so this information can get distributed.

For example, what do you do if someone's bogu becomes untied? How is that different from if a shinai breaks? How do you deal with a men being countered with mune-zuki? When do you call wakari? etc, etc.

[tango]

I have been told at seminars that a point is a point. It is not less of a point because you switched from jogan kamae anymore than it is less of a point because it is a godan fighting a shodan.

If shimpan are following "unwritten rules" they should not be shimpan.

Just for clarification, I didn't say that ANY shimpan were doing such a thing.
I just noted my opinion that it would not surprise me if some shimpan did do it.

In any case, if somebody moves from jodan back to chudan, I should think that the opponent might take that as a sign of some weakness and try to capitalize on it.

Again... more opinion from the peanut gallery.

[Ignatz]

. . .For example, what do you do if someone's bogu becomes untied? How is that different from if a shinai breaks? How do you deal with a men being countered with mune-zuki? When do you call wakari? etc, etc.

I don't think that is what we are talking about. The seminars we have cover these things regularly but we have been told (I think) that it is ippon or it is not. You don't deny a point because of something like "Well he changed from jodan to chudan so his spirit is not strong enough".

As for:

While I am hard-pressed to give you a clear example, perhaps the scenario you’d see this play out of the most is in how far you allow the participants to “rough-up” each other before something is done about it.

The trend in this neck of the woods, at least as has been set forth by el presidente, is that roughness should be squished immediately. No smashy bashy, this is kendo not roller derby (with apologies to Perry).
So yes, there is an element of teaching here. You can even stop a match and warn a player that it will be hansoku next time he does it.

I think that is good judging.

[Sakari]

I have been told of at least one unwritten rule in shimpaning: Don't renounce to judge if the point scored or not scored was a men-uchi. On men-uchi you either believe it was ippon or not, no cop-outs.


Why would this be so? If the judge can't determine if a point was valid by seeing, hearing or reasoning, then surely the judge can't signal either way? For example a kote or tsuki can be positioned so that the judge really can't reasonably see the contact. Men on the other hand would seem to be visible at all times. I would think it a failure of the judge to pay attention if he did not see the attempt at men.

I don't think of it in terms of a cop-out or not, but if a judge is prone to such errors then he really should not be judging in real competitions.

[Landorph]

well.. i think most of you would know this phrase.. "shimpan is your enemy in a shiai.. not the opponent." that's what happens in competition with all the poor shimpanning by unexperienced shimpans.. or those that rotates who helds a biased judgement towards their own members or a grudge that u beat them before..

however you look at it.. it is both political and a sad truth in alot of competitions.. esp at local and regional level.

[JSchmidt]

well.. i think most of you would know this phrase.. "shimpan is your enemy in a shiai.. not the opponent." that's what happens in competition with all the poor shimpanning by unexperienced shimpans.. or those that rotates who helds a biased judgement towards their own members or a grudge that u beat them before..

however you look at it.. it is both political and a sad truth in alot of competitions.. esp at local and regional level.

Wow. Are you sure you have the experience to judge that?.

[AlexM]

Why would this be so? If the judge can't determine if a point was valid by seeing, hearing or reasoning, then surely the judge can't signal either way? For example a kote or tsuki can be positioned so that the judge really can't reasonably see the contact. Men on the other hand would seem to be visible at all times. I would think it a failure of the judge to pay attention if he did not see the attempt at men.


I think you're agreeing with me.

I said that one of the "unwritten rules" was that shimpan cannot renounce to judge an ippon on men-uchi. In other words, assuming another judge raises a flag to indicate a point on men, you have to either agree or disagree with the decision. You cannot say you didn't see it because, as you pointed out, men is visible at all times (or 99% of the time).

[DCPan]

There's quite a few unwritten rules. The IKF shimpan guidelines don't cover every situation. That's partly why we need to have shimpan seminars, so this information can get distributed.

For example, what do you do if someone's bogu becomes untied? How is that different from if a shinai breaks? How do you deal with a men being countered with mune-zuki? When do you call wakari? etc, etc.

Of course you can’t have a rule for every situation. (But I thought Wakare is in the rule books :D )

That said, there’s also broader directions that most situation fall under.

For example, a broad direction is a judge should maintain control the match and maintain the safety of the players. So, when you see an equipment that maybe loose, you need to balance the risk of injury vs. the weight of breaking the flow of the match. The timing of your “yame” could still be interpreted as favoritism if you called yame right when one opponent has pretty much dominated the other, and the other person has the lower doh himo untied which is not a big deal considering his men is open at that point.

Similarly, you can give warnings to players for “not having the intent to fight”, “stalling”, or “intentionally striking a non-scoring area”.

Lastly, there’s always “gogi” and “head judge” when you don’t know what to do.

When I say unwritten rules, I mean stuff like “I’m not taking any diagonal kote because there’s obviously no hasuji….”

That’s serious crap. How could anyone say there’s no diagonal cuts in kendo? Sayu-men? Doh? Diagonal kote is just a lower migi-men or a higher doh.

There’s a lot of reasons why diagonal kote is bad. Just to give some for example, diagonal kote is bad because you usually end up in a bad posture, you step off the centerline when you finish so you can’t do rensoku waza, if you miss the opponent tend to get bruised knuckles or elbows, blah blah…but none of those reasons for why diagonal kote is bad involve “bad hasuji”. I have yet to hear a good explaination of why diagonal kote is bad hasuji…it could be considered as BAD tachi-suji based on the reasons I gave above, but it is not bad hasuji.

[kendokamax]

It's not always being the case of a diagonal kote and hasuji being bad. It's just that with diagonal kote there is a better % than the hasuji will be bad. Because a lot of time the shinai will hit the kote on the fist or the hit will be done with the tip of the shinai.

[Kendoka]

well.. i think most of you would know this phrase.. "shimpan is your enemy in a shiai.. not the opponent." that's what happens in competition with all the poor shimpanning by unexperienced shimpans.. or those that rotates who helds a biased judgement towards their own members or a grudge that u beat them before..

however you look at it.. it is both political and a sad truth in alot of competitions.. esp at local and regional level.

Mmm. Being shinpan is actually REALLY HARD.

Kendo players have to learn to be a shinpan somewhere and there is only one way to really learn to be shinpan.

As for bias and grudges, I can't speak for every shinpan and every situation, but I would be very surprised if Landorphs comments are fair. All the shinpan at the recent AKC tried and worked very hard for two days to get the best result, by rewarding good, proper and effective kendo.

[mashu19]

i do,inately play jodan, but i do change to chudan for little bits if there isnt enough space to get into jodan, if im too close its just to easy to get hit on my kote while going up into jodan..

[ahmed61086]

i do,inately play jodan, but i do change to chudan for little bits if there isnt enough space to get into jodan, if im too close its just to easy to get hit on my kote while going up into jodan..

So Jodan is in your blood huh? You just picked up a shinai and were like, " I am a master at Jodan". Good stuff there, yoda.

[MrChow]

I'm kyu and we're not taught/supposed to do tsuki, but one day during jigeiko, a close friend and dojomate (he's same grade as me) went into gedan and I went for katate tsuki. I hit the target in the right spot but it was quite a faint touch. He tried it again and I hit kihon men. He occasionally still does it, but he's a very stationary player. He'll sit in gedan, wait for you to come and if you go for kote or kote-men, he'll sit there for nuki-men everytime.

Apart from the aforementioned incident, I don't have any experience of changing kamae during a match. Even if I thought I was skilled enough to do so, I'd still stick to the one I know best for the duration of the match.

[Alison2805]

well.. i think most of you would know this phrase.. "shimpan is your enemy in a shiai.. not the opponent." that's what happens in competition with all the poor shimpanning by unexperienced shimpans.. or those that rotates who helds a biased judgement towards their own members or a grudge that u beat them before..

however you look at it.. it is both political and a sad truth in alot of competitions.. esp at local and regional level.

Im sure you know the phrase "suck it up, princess".

[Martino]

well.. i think most of you would know this phrase.. "shimpan is your enemy in a shiai.. not the opponent." that's what happens in competition with all the poor shimpaning by unexperienced shimpans.. or those that rotates who helds a biased judgement towards their own members or a grudge that u beat them before..

however you look at it.. it is both political and a sad truth in alot of competitions.. esp at local and regional level.

Sorry to be another person to unload on you Landorph. But I as well disagree with your statement.

To me it reads as a very pessimistic (the world hates me) statement.

So I have a couple of question for anyone who has little faith in shimpan.

1) How often do you practice shimpaning at your club?
2) Is it fair to agree that as low level shimpan: It is easier to identify with someone who play the same style of kendo as you (It is easier to identify a good cut from a club member than from another club. The Kumdo/Kendo style argument)
3) How do propose we address this issue of unexperienced shimpans?


If people are making comments about shimpan been Biased and Crap, why would anyone want be a shimpan and run the risk of been lumped with one of these tags.

So what do you(people who complain about shimpaning) want?
a) Regular rotations, but at the risk of inexperience shimpan. Who miss point because they are none the wiser.
b) A small but elite group of shimpan. Who get mentally burnet out and start missing points due to the work load.

Most countries are not as fortunate as Japan/Korea where you can rope in a bunch of 6th dan and higher.

Yes quite often shimpan do fail the combatants in shiai, but it is not because your or your club or you state. Its because were human, we make mistakes, as yet kendo/kumdo is not developed to a point were we have a sufficient talent pool to support what you are asking for.

If people are so concerned about the problem why don't they put there hand up and be part of the solution.
Here in a Australia we have the Kendo board, and in NSW you also have to Kendo Technical Committee. I know the Kendo Board are looking into way of improving the shimpan quality. If you have any ideas concerns why not raise it with them.

There are no Trophies for best shimpan or most improved. There is a reason why the best shiai players also tend to be the better shimpan. But the only way that shimpaning is going to improve outside of the kendo power houses is by people willing to pick up the flag's and make mistakes. By people from different clubs and back grounds getting together and explaining/showing each other what makes and breaks a point in there eyes.
Unfortunately ego and disagreement will arise (and to a degree they should), however as long as everyone remembers what we are here for. Then we can continue to develop.

While I agree with

Im sure you know the phrase "suck it up, princess".
I don't think its much help,
a much more usefully one is

'Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.'

Anyway thanks Landorph for giving me use a juicy topic to bite into to. I hope you realise that my reposed isn't aimed at you. But at those who are at a level were shimpaning is asked of them, they don't assist and then complain about those that do put there hand up.



Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.

That way its harder for them to catch you.