Should we abandon grades?

[Heretic]

OK here's a point that has come up violently in one of the Flame threads: Kendo does grades (Kyu, Dan), so do a range of other originally Japanese and now global Budo. Koryu did award teacher licenses and that was it. The same for non-Japanese martial arts, including western disciplines such as boxing etc.

Kano's Kyu/Dan grades took the world by storm it seems, thereby instilling a particular parochial culture and style onto what might well be the majority of East Asian Martial Arts practised today. The militarist connotations of his sytem are well known.

So: Are we right in perpetuating the system of grades, the almost mythical 'black belt' status? Might there be costs that come with this sytem that outweigh its strong points? Is it time, in other words, to revert to the older and internationally initially much more prevalent way of granting assistant, teacher, and 'top coach' awards?

[Paikea]

Yes. Thought you were just passing by (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=262883&postcount=60)?

[Heretic]

Yes. Thought you were just passing by (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=262883&postcount=60)?

Why then?

Guys like yourself are persuading me to stay, not too many forums where one can share in a civilised, mature discussion with for the most part reasonably experienced Budoka.

[Oroshi]

Most of the serious MA practitioners I know aren't really interested in grades. Kyu/dan ranks serve their purpose well enough, especially in competitive arts like kendo. Most koryu (which are non-competitive) do fine without them.

I take gradings when my sensei tells me I should. Other than that I don't really give it much thought.

[Ignatz]

. . .Guys like yourself are persuading me to stay. . .

I thought it was the fan mail from your secret admirers.

[Paikea]

Why then?

Guys like yourself are persuading me to stay, not too many forums where one can share in a civilised, mature discussion with for the most part reasonably experienced Budoka.Oh, bull. You're another anonymous blowhard, here to shill for your personal cult hero. I can fill a hefty crapsack with the names of bozos who have come here in the last few years to do exactly what you're doing now. Get in line behind 2SwordStyle, Weird Al Kilgore, his boy SengokuClassic and the ever-popular Gatsu.

Plonk.

[Heretic]

I thought it was the fan mail from your secret admirers.

Obviously, you can see straight into my heart. But off topic, right?

[Ignatz]

"a hefty crapsack"

now that my friends is poetry.

[Heretic]

I thought it was the fan mail from your secret admirers.


Oh, bull. You're another anonymous blowhard, here to shill for your personal cult hero. I can fill a hefty crapsack with the names of bozos who have come here in the last few years to do exactly what you're doing now. Get in line behind 2SwordStyle, Weird Al Kilgore, his boy SengokuClassic and the ever-popular Gatsu.

Plonk.

Aye Sir. Will not question that. Would seem arrogant, right? Let me line up then. Ossu.

[Heretic]

"a hefty crapsack"

now that my friends is poetry.

And I am the first to agree. And to admit that my personal cult hero has just changed. Will it ever end?:rambo:

[Ignatz]

Obviously, you can see straight into my heart. But off topic, right?

No, directly on-topic. You want a world where you can be sensei without ever having to go through the process.

Anybody can call themself shihan or soke or teacher or whatever and if you are a good enough salesman you will get some followers. Heck, Charlie Manson had followers.

With kendo, the kind that millions of people practice, you know what you are getting. Even the worst 6 dan that I ever met had a level of kendo that is more than significantly better that your "I don't need this rank" kind of guy.

The rank is quality control and shows the minimum standard which you don't have in your rankless world.

[Heretic]

Point taken Ignatz, but the same quality control could be achieved by just having a widely accepted standard for assistant, associate and full teacher grade. Do we really need 10 different teacher grades?

[Oroshi]

There are 10 teacher grades?

[Heretic]

OK help me count: when does student for first time teach class under supervision? That be No. 1. Is that Yondan? Or Shodan? Or Rokku Kyu? the count from there. For most Budo, I end up with about 10.

[tattooedasshole]

OK help me count: when does student for first time teach class under supervision? That be No. 1. Is that Yondan? Or Shodan? Or Rokku Kyu? the count from there. For most Budo, I end up with about 10.
Just one piece of advice for ya, it's alot easier to see the world around you when you take your head out of your ass.

[Heretic]

I do appreciate that you feel so generous today.

Very humble, right? You guys must feel pretty sure of yourselves, no doubt you practice in some superior character building spare time activity.

[tattooedasshole]

I do appreciate that you feel so generous today.

Very humble, right? You guys must feel pretty sure of yourselves, no doubt you practice in some superior character building spare time activity.
Did you eat paint chips as a kid? Anti-freeze too tasty to resist? Or are you smoking crack?

[Oroshi]

OK help me count: when does student for first time teach class under supervision? That be No. 1. Is that Yondan? Or Shodan? Or Rokku Kyu? the count from there. For most Budo, I end up with about 10.
We clearly have very different ideas about what a teacher is and what dan grades actually mean.

[joekc6nlx]

Guys, guys, guys!!!!

Don't bother arguing with him, you'll never win, and it's just playing into his game.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was Hai-Hai resurrected from the dead who's doing this to have some fun with us.

[Kenshi]

Actually, kendo has 3 teaching licenses: renshi, kyoshi, and hanshi. Dan grades are these just to measure your physical ability which - Im sure you agree - you must have in order to be a teacher. Too many people talk without walking...

[Kenzan]

... I can fill a hefty crapsack


Must..stop..crying!
WHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

..."Crapsack!"

Best..compound word..ever!
Brilliant!!!!
:D :D:D:D

[Kenzan]

The rank is quality control and shows the minimum standard which you don't have in your rankless world.

Kenzan sees what you did there.
:grin:

I say to you Excelsior, Sir!
:D

[Juho L]

I don't see a reason why the grading system should be removed. It indicates rather well the level of experience and skill of the kendoka and it's an excellent (and probably the only) way to divide the kendokas to fair shiai series.

Without the grades how would one define the shiai series? Physical measurements like weight and height really don't matter much in kendo so they don't work. Also experience measured as years of practicing kendo is also same to nothing as some people train once a week and some people almost every day.

The only situation a grading thing is crappy is when someone starts to boast with ones grade, but then again that's not the grading systems fault - All the blame goes for the boaster.

[xvikingx]

Too many people talk without walking...
Oh yeah, well I can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time. What do I win?

[Newbie]

Heretic, to make such an ignorant and ill-informed suggestion, it's obvious that you haven't been involvedin FIK related MA for very long, if at all.

You're a visiting sensei from overseas. There are a hundred budoka in the room. You need to split them into groups and most of them you've never even spoken a few words with, let alone know their capabilities and length of time training or what they know. You gonna put someone training for ten years with someone who's never picked up a sword/shinai/jo/naginata etc? That's fine for day to day practise in the dojo but very frustrating for big events.

Even small seminars. Weekend just gone, half a dozen people in attendence for a iai/jo seminar. I've met all but one of the visiting sensei/sempai before, two of them multiple times. They can't keep track of everyone in the country who practises, even if I have met him quite a number of times and he's trained me quite a number of times. He says "what grade are you again?" and I reply. Instantly he has a rough idea (because he knows I haven't been training long enough to have missed too many gradings so I'm not like those who've trained for years but haven't been able/bothered to grade for whatever reason) of where I am and what he can teach me.

On a day to day level in the dojo. My sempai knows what he needs to worry about for the direction of my training at my level. There are concepts he doesn't want me to worry about because they aren't neccessary and will only make me lose sight of my basics until I reach, for example, sankkyu. There is a reason for this. If I start worrying about jo ha ku (sp?) now at rokkyu, I'm going to totally fluff my kata. But any visiting instructor, knowing my grade, will also know that.

I think this could be an interesting, serious discussion, specially for noobs who are curious rather than peanuts flaming and trying to cause arguments.

Oh well.

[Kingofmyrrh]

I'm a bit of a contrarian here... I don't necessarily want to get rid of grades, but I have realised lately that the grading system is just another aspect of the bizarre obsession with qualifications that Japanese society has. I'm feeling too lazy to go into it at length, but let's just say that even SURFING has a qualification system and you have to have them to be taken seriously, no matter how proficient you are. I mean really... this is surfing.

I would definitely abolish shogo however. Just an excuse for the ZNKR to scoop up some cash as far as I can see. Nice to have major qualifications like shodan or 8th dan, but don't really need 6 in between, especially as really strong people make a bit of a mockery of the system. Having said that, I'll be taking my 4th dan, but mainly because I enjoy the opportunity to test myself and see how I perform by my own standards (ie did it feel good to me). Something like the old 5 dan system might be nice.

[Lloromannic]

I miss Gatsu and quality trolling.

[xvikingx]

even SURFING has a qualification system and you have to have them to be taken seriously, no matter how proficient you are. I mean really... this is surfing.

You must be joking.

[Kenshi]

I'm a bit of a contrarian here.....Something like the old 5 dan system might be nice.

Thats quite an interesting take. Thinking about it, you could probably lump 4+5 and 6+7 together.. maybe a round 5 would be good.

I agree with the fact that shogo grades are really about prestige/money though.... but if they actually meant something it wouldnt hurt.

For example, in Osaka you must be nanadan kyoshi or renshi (cant remember which) to officially open a dojo. I think this is a good idea.... but in reality what happens is you get sensei putting their name down on paper, but they actually never go there and teach. (if there is any form of "thank you" gift in the deal I dont know...)

[Kingofmyrrh]

You must be joking.

I wish I was...

[Kingofmyrrh]

Thats quite an interesting take. Thinking about it, you could probably lump 4+5 and 6+7 together.. maybe a round 5 would be good.

Exactly... when I meet a 4th dan or a 2nd dan, I have no real reason to believe that they will be stronger/weaker than I am as there's so much individual difference. Spacing things out a little might introduce some more meaning... or not, I don't know.

[xvikingx]

I keep thinking how unbelievalb e that is and then I remember we are talking about Japan, a country where they have certificates and ranking for damn near anything. How can you even rank surfing? And another thing, since when did Brits surf?

[Kenshi]

Exactly... when I meet a 4th dan or a 2nd dan, I have no real reason to believe that they will be stronger/weaker than I am as there's so much individual difference. Spacing things out a little might introduce some more meaning... or not, I don't know.

Well, at least by being over here we dont have the worry about getting grades as much as we would have if we were at home... where its a mad scramble for prestige and power.

[Fudo-Shin]

I am not one to speak on changing the system. But I will say that in the lower ranks, and I suspect sometimes in the higher ranks, the grade does not always reflect one's ability or experience. People are too quick to pigeon-hole someone upon hearing their rank. But it does work for a rough guideline I guess. However, I don't think there is any feasible reason to change the current system.

[Kenshi]

I don't think there is any feasible reason to change the current system.

Just discussing.... no-one has the ability to change the system here.

[Fudo-Shin]

Just discussing.... no-one has the ability to change the system here.ahh, bad wording. I mean, I don't have any problems per se with the current system. But I see the where you (more experienced) guys are coming from.

[Kingofmyrrh]

I keep thinking how unbelievalb e that is and then I remember we are talking about Japan, a country where they have certificates and ranking for damn near anything. How can you even rank surfing? And another thing, since when did Brits surf?

This Brit has only been surfing for a short while. He can barely get to his feet, let alone get a qualification. For the basic levels you have to demonstrate catching waves and bottom turns, but apparently for the higher levels it's very difficult to test because the waves here are no consistent enough and you can't get anything powerful enough to show your stuff. I also hear (no personal knowledge) that by making these qualifications a prerequisite for tournament entry, they can prevent the entry of guys from Australia/Hawaii/wherever, who would trash the locals pretty hard. Needless to say I will not be grading.

[xvikingx]

I’m sh*t at surfing so I’m really not one to comment. My brother was pro for Xanadu years ago. I went out with him a number of times but after my nose got busted by the board while paddling out and then being axed across the face after gathering my footing I said f*ck surfing.
As far as grading is concerned it sounds like a pile of rubbish.
Where do you surf? I’ve seen good surf in Kochi and Miyazaki, and my Aussie friend said that there are some good spots on the Sea Japan side of Kyoto. Of course that nut case was going out in November/ December.

[Kingofmyrrh]

I’m sh*t at surfing so I’m really not one to comment. My brother was pro for Xanadu years ago. I went out with him a number of times but after my nose got busted by the board while paddling out and then being axed across the face after gathering my footing I said f*ck surfing.
As far as grading is concerned it sounds like a pile of rubbish.
Where do you surf? I’ve seen good surf in Kochi and Miyazaki, and my Aussie friend said that there are some good spots on the Sea Japan side of Kyoto. Of course that nut case was going out in November/ December.

I've been hitting Onjuku in Chiba mainly. Perilously close to IBU at Katsuura... I was in Miyazaki over GW but sadly no gear. Anyway, I have a long way to go before I can even pretend I know what I'm talking about. I get beaten up by my own board at least once per session.

[Mike Molloy]

Careful Matt, surfing is addictive and will take over your life!
if you arrive back in Oxford wearing baggies and flip-flops I'll know it has got to you...

Aaah, the smell of Mr Zog's Sex Wax in the morning...:D

[xvikingx]

I get beaten up by my own board at least once per session.

Well good for you for getting out on that stick. You've more balls than I'll ever have.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Nice to have major qualifications like shodan or 8th dan, but don't really need 6 in between, especially as really strong people make a bit of a mockery of the system.You think shodan is a major qualification? Kendo is already basically a 5 dan system, as the first 3 match up to kyu level ability in some other martial arts I can think of. Judging panels think of it that way too, near as I can tell. They start looking at you really hard from yondan.

[hl1978]

I'm a bit of a contrarian here... I don't necessarily want to get rid of grades, but I have realised lately that the grading system is just another aspect of the bizarre obsession with qualifications that Japanese society has. I'm feeling too lazy to go into it at length, but let's just say that even SURFING has a qualification system and you have to have them to be taken seriously, no matter how proficient you are. I mean really... this is surfing.



don't forget that baseball has a similar ranking system and even kata.

A friend of mine, and another poster on this board, has dan rankings in shodo. The kyu/dan ranking system can be quite humerous when applied to certain subjects.

As for questioning the kyu/dan system when applied to tournaments, for those seeking an alternative, why not apply similar criteria as used in western fencing?

On the other hand, most tournaments I have attended have basically been an open tournament for all ranks/genders above sandan anyways.

[JSchmidt]

d
A friend of mine, and another poster on this board, has dan rankings in shodo. The kyu/dan ranking system can be quite humerous when applied to certain subjects.

Why? It reflects that a certain level of skill has been achieved and why should that not apply to non-martial arts?

[Neil Gendzwill]

As for questioning the kyu/dan system when applied to tournaments, for those seeking an alternative, why not apply similar criteria as used in western fencing?I'm not familiar with how western fencing does it. My daughter is an Irish Dancer, and they progress up the ranks by winning or placing in competitions at the lower rank. The number of valid placings varies on the size of the competition. There are 6 levels, and it's also sorted by age, so it's quite complex.

[hl1978]

Why? It reflects that a certain level of skill has been achieved and why should that not apply to non-martial arts?

Isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder when it comes to art? Shouldn't recognition from ones peers be enough for art?

Rankings in a team sport, like baseball, seems somewhat silly to me. What additional benefits to they provide?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Rankings in a team sport, like baseball, seems somewhat silly to me. What additional benefits to they provide?To allow kids of a similar ability to play together. My daughter's soccer league is organized into 4 different tiers. If a top tier team played a bottom tier team, neither side would have any fun.

[Kenzan]

Why? It reflects that a certain level of skill has been achieved and why should that not apply to non-martial arts?

Too true.
My wife hold sandan in Shoudou.
~and I am certain It is no less difficult to obtain than that in Kendo. or other arts.

[JSchmidt]

Isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder when it comes to art?

Ok, so who has the most beautiful kendo? A hachi-dan or a shodan?.

[hl1978]

I'm not familiar with how western fencing does it. My daughter is an Irish Dancer, and they progress up the ranks by winning or placing in competitions at the lower rank. The number of valid placings varies on the size of the competition. There are 6 levels, and it's also sorted by age, so it's quite complex.


As I recall, fencing awards classifications based on tournament performance, levels a-e. After 4 years it reverts to the next lowest level, if the fencer has not maintained the same classification or improved. Sounds somewhat similar to the system used for your daughter.

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1172035

the above has some explanation.

now this doesn't solve anything for determining how well one can teach, nor does it address any sort of ranking for people who aren't tournament oriented.

[hl1978]

Ok, so who has the most beautiful kendo? A hachi-dan or a shodan?.

Would you even need a ranking to tell? Outside of posture/movment, they both look the same in bogu as we dont have coloured belts.

To the layman they would be physically indistinguishable from one another until they moved.

[Neil Gendzwill]

To the layman they would be physically indistinguishable from one another until they moved.Even when they move. To the experienced, they look different just standing there. What's your point?

[hl1978]

Even when they move. To the experienced, they look different just standing there. What's your point?

I think a layman can tell the difference between one guy who gets dominated, and one guy who doesnt, when there is a huge difference in skill, even if one is not educated in what is considered good within that area. The same layman can tell the difference between a 5 year olds drawing and artwork in MoMa/the Louvre or the Met (outside of some impressionist, and "modern" art of course).

My original point was that outside or martial arts from a western perspective the kyu/dan sysem seem silly when applied to non martial sports and artistic endeavours (something uniquely japanese who love to rank everything, just watch japanese tv, visit ranking/ranqueen etc and you will see what i mean having just gotten back 2 days ago myself), to which JSchmidt attempted to bring it back to application to kendo by inferring hachidan level as being artistic (something which I certianly don't disagree).

I'm not opposed to ranking in kendo,but I am not sure how it is necessarily better as a than the old menkyo sytem, or something like the western fencing system.

Perhaps some hybrid could be applied (in part like judo where those who excel in tournaments are more easily promoted/interval time between promotions is decreased?)

Actually, Neil, perhaps you could comment on how effectively that is applied in judo? Is there any envy amongst those who don't participate in the tournament scene?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Actually, Neil, perhaps you could comment on how effectively that is applied in judo? Is there any envy amongst those who don't participate in the tournament scene?I can only respond on how it's done in my club. Here tournament performance has been mostly taken out of the picture. When I was a kid, you had to play tournaments, and if you did well you could be promoted on the spot. Now the exams (at kyu grade) are simply about demonstrating the waza and the kata and the on-the-spot promotions have been all but eliminated.

When going for dan, you need to accumulate points. One way of accumulating points is to fight at tournaments and give strong showings, but there's lots of other ways. You can volunteer at tournaments (timekeep, ref, score), attend seminars, get coaching certs. You get points for just time in grade and for helping with dojo admin. So I think a strong tournament fighter will get the points a little faster but it's certainly not shutting any doors for you if you opt out.

[Ignatz]

I think a layman can tell the difference between one guy who gets dominated, and one guy who doesnt, when there is a huge difference in skill, even if one is not educated in what is considered good within that area. . . .

The layman and/or the beginner might have a different idea about what is what that someone with more experience.

I watched a match the other day where a young guy, probably in his very early 20's was against a guy who was probably 60.

You and I might differ in our opinions as to who "dominated".

[Avenger]

OK here's a point that has come up violently in one of the Flame threads: Kendo does grades (Kyu, Dan), so do a range of other originally Japanese and now global Budo. Koryu did award teacher licenses and that was it. The same for non-Japanese martial arts, including western disciplines such as boxing etc.

Kano's Kyu/Dan grades took the world by storm it seems, thereby instilling a particular parochial culture and style onto what might well be the majority of East Asian Martial Arts practised today. The militarist connotations of his sytem are well known.

So: Are we right in perpetuating the system of grades, the almost mythical 'black belt' status? Might there be costs that come with this sytem that outweigh its strong points? Is it time, in other words, to revert to the older and internationally initially much more prevalent way of granting assistant, teacher, and 'top coach' awards?

To answer your question simply: No, we should not abandon grades. They serve a variety of practical purposes already covered in previous posts (easy identification of skill level, standardization of learning and evaluation, ensuring similar levels of competition, giving students a sense of progress and the ability to set goals and focus on meeting them, etc.) If people misunderstand the purpose of grades, or get totally wrapped around the notion of "You're not even worth my time, since I'm a shodan and you're just a beginner", this does not detract from the practical purposes of a grading system. Most likely, a person who is a jerk will be a jerk regardless of a grading system.

It's also interesting to note the usage of words in the somewhat inflammatory language you used, stating grades created a "parochial culture and style" and that "The militarist connotations of his sytem are well known." Contrary to what you are trying to convey, Kano's grading system emerged alongside the gendai budo and other modern martial arts that we know today, which emphasize the martial arts bettering the individual while de-emphasizing the military utility of the arts. Previous to Kano's system, koryu's focused heavily on the military aspects of the martial arts, as the practical purpose to learning how to swing a bokken was to go out on the battlefield the next day and decapitate and gut the soldiers of your lord's enemy. A swordsman with ten years of experience could "lose" to a beginner on the battlefield if the beginner simply managed to cut his head of first, irrespective of any fancy colored belt he could happen to be wearing.

In an interesting parallel, the growth of mixed martial arts (MMA) competitions in the last few decades has led to a de-emphasis on grades in some forms of martial arts. While MMA has spurred interest in learning martial arts like jujutsu, many students are not as interested in the philosophical or spiritual aspects of self-improvement as they are in defeating members of rival schools through brutual strikes and submission moves in a caged octagon ring. Of course, the reason jujutsu and other fighting arts developed in the first place was for the primal and practical reason of defeating opponents on the field of battle. As traditional warfare became irrelevant, training in martial arts for purely military reasons became irrelevant as well, and we saw the emergance of modern martial arts as we know them. However, MMA has created a spirited "battlefield" environment for schools to test the effectiveness of their art, and we have seen a return to practical application and competition above all else in many schools of martial arts - and they don't wear fancy colored belts.

[Kingofmyrrh]

You think shodan is a major qualification? Kendo is already basically a 5 dan system, as the first 3 match up to kyu level ability in some other martial arts I can think of. Judging panels think of it that way too, near as I can tell. They start looking at you really hard from yondan.

It is to an ikkyu.

[kurisu]

I have no issue with grades, it's the inconsistancy throughout the world that I question. In some parts of the world you can make nidan in 2 years shodan in 10 months, in my part of the world that is unheard of. So around the world, grades mean diffrent things. I'd like to see the same standards everywhere (but that will never happen).

[Kingofmyrrh]

I have no issue with grades, it's the inconsistancy throughout the world that I question. In some parts of the world you can make nidan in 2 years shodan in 10 months, in my part of the world that is unheard of. So around the world, grades mean diffrent things. I'd like to see the same standards everywhere (but that will never happen).

Considering the fact that this is manageable, if difficult, here in Japan where there are more people doing kendo than anywhere else in the world, I would say that the realignment needs to start in your part of the world.

[Newbie]

I have no issue with grades, it's the inconsistancy throughout the world that I question. In some parts of the world you can make nidan in 2 years shodan in 10 months, in my part of the world that is unheard of.

Really? We have minimum gap times in between gradings - three months between kyu grade gradings, six months between ikkyu and shodan, one year between shodan and nidan and then the gaps keep getting bigger. Of course you get some skipping in the kyu grades, but that mainly occurs when someone's very remote (this is Australia, after all) and can maybe only get to gradings and instructed training every couple years. On the whole though, this ensures that everyone in the country of a certain grade *are* at roughly the same level.

[kurisu]

Considering the fact that this is manageable, if difficult, here in Japan where there are more people doing kendo than anywhere else in the world, I would say that the realignment needs to start in your part of the world.

I agree.....

[joekc6nlx]

, but that mainly occurs when someone's very remote (this is Australia, after all)

You're kidding, right? I thought Australia was in an entirely different galaxy, not even on this planet.

Oh, I'm only having some fun.... :silly:

In our federation (the regional, not AUSKF), older beginners, like me, can take their first promotion test without specifying which kyu they are testing for, ikkyu excepted. It is then up to the panel of judges to which kyu the testee is promoted. Of course, after that first testing, the requirement that you specify the grade for which you are testing is in effect. I have seen one person go from mukyu to ikkyu at one testing, but that was an isolated incident.

[Kingofmyrrh]

I agree.....

There goes our chance of a heated mud slinging contest!

[shred_lord]

Really? We have minimum gap times in between gradings - three months ....If if all countries stuck to the FIK Guidelines instead of making things harder for themselves, the grades would be more internationally equal. But you'd struggle to get exact parity as different grading panel interpret the grade requirements differently.

[bullet08]

grading is rather important. it tells who needs to go out for beer run when beer runs out, and who need to give the beer money to the kid who needs to go run around looking for beer at 2 in the morning.

pete

[ScottUK]

+rep for you el capitan... :D

[ScottUK]

Sorry for the double post, but congrats to Heretic for starting a potentially flammable thread, sitting back and not contributing ('cos he/she can't) to what has become an interesting read, courtesy of proper martial artists from four corners of the globe (which he/she isn't).

The classic English V sign to you, sir/madam, for your trolling backfiring on you.

[joekc6nlx]

+rep for you el capitan... :D

Ditto! :cheerful:

[Paikea]

The classic English V sign to you, sir/madam, for your trolling backfiring on you.Oh...we were supposed to use two fingers?

Whoops.

[ScottUK]

That is the norm - at least on this side of the pond...

However, I hear that US sign language is different to what deaf/mute folk use here, so all is well... :)

[rainmaker]

We have been using grading system for many years by millions people, worldwide. You think you can change that ????

[ScottUK]

Is there a grading system for trolls?

[James]

Is there a grading system for trolls?

Yes, it involves a bridge, and 3 Billy Goats in ascending levels of gruffness.

[Sparv]

Yes. Bad rep, temp ban and ban. Here the temp ban doesn't seem to exist. A good system I think.

[ScottUK]

Aha I see - the shogo system of Troll advancement - the highest being 'Ban-shi'.

Hehe never mind. I'll get me coat.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Here the temp ban doesn't seem to exist.It exists. I haven't used it yet.

[joekc6nlx]

Aha I see - the shogo system of Troll advancement - the highest being 'Ban-shi'.

Hehe never mind. I'll get me coat.

Ban-shi, is that like an Irish spirit that wails in the night, sending shivers up and down one's spine?

Groan.....

[Oroshi]

Banshi = 'certain death' in Japanese :rolleyes:

[ScottUK]

No way? My joke was better than I thought... :D

[Heretic]

1. First of all, apologies for having come here with testosterone hot on my heels, I got them a bit upset over at Flames but they will get over it.

2. Some posters share at least some of my scepticism regarding the cultural compulsion to rank (which stems from the need in feudal societies to know exactly where one's place is).

3. Agreement regarding the rationale of certifying the standing of coaches (a three tier system is virtually universal)

4. An interesting point was raised concerning the function of ranks when it comes to teaching students one does not know. Yes I can see some value in being able to match students of similar experience and skill in some teaching contexts. But experienced teachers will find it easy to group a class into 2-3 groups of comparable skill on the basis of a handful of simple exercises that one can go through at the beginning (in fact, that's used by some peripatetic teachers anyway as a matter of course)

5. Persistent concern for incentives to push oneself beyond one's existing skill level. Yes, that's sadly how we have come to function in this globalised world of market capitalism, and it may go some way in explaining why rankings and gradings have become so entrenched

6. What I take away from the discussion so far: if one knows each other, and if one does not require ranks to motivate one's strive to push further, then there is no need for gradings (but there remains a need to award licenses to teach)

[xvikingx]

5. Persistent concern for incentives to push oneself beyond one's existing skill level. Yes, that's sadly how we have come to function in this globalised world of market capitalism, and it may go some way in explaining why rankings and gradings have become so entrenched

Don't you think you are taking this a little far? It takes time and money to "move up" so I see little incentive other than maybe an ego boost for some.

[Kenshi]

...[stuff]....

You make some interesting points, both here and in some of your other posts. But in order to be taken at more than an armchair-samurai, can you confirm that you have participated in the grading system (pref. kendo or iaido) or hold a teaching license of a sort? A bit of background would help us to understand how you came to your conclusions and thus enrich the conversation on both sides.

[Ignatz]

5. Persistent concern for incentives to push oneself beyond one's existing skill level. Yes, that's sadly how we have come to function in this globalised world of market capitalism, and it may go some way in explaining why rankings and gradings have become so entrenched


If they gave out dan ranking for saying really stupid, inane shit, you would be a hachidan.

Globalised world of market capitalism. What a putz.

[pgsmith]

What I take away from the discussion so far: if one knows each other, and if one does not require ranks to motivate one's strive to push further, then there is no need for gradings
Heretic, you're an idiot. Sorry to be so blunt, but there's no kinder way to put it. I don't know you sir, and yet I feel that I do. Let me see if I can't pin your background up here just based on reading a couple of your posts ...
You sir, have spent a number of years "training" under someone that was not authorized to teach. Your "ranks" that you feel you worked hard for, mean nothing outside of your own school, and are generally ignored by everyone else. You took what your original teacher taught you, added some stuff that you picked up from others along the way, sprinkled it with a bit of stuff that you came up with on your own, and have declared it your own "style". You've had numerous conversations with students of the traditional arts, and they all tend to pass you off as another "wannabe" that doesn't want to put in the time and effort required to get somewhere traditionally. So, now your latest crusade is to attempt to get people believing that "rank" shouldn't matter at all, and it's all in what you know. This way you feel that you will gain a bit of legitimacy. What you fail to realize though, is that since you've never "really" trained under true qualified instruction, you don't know or understand anywhere near what you think you do.

How was that, pretty close? You're far from the first with this same background to appear on-line spouting the same flawed reasoning with the same agenda.

[Heretic]

What you fail to realize though, is that since you've never "really" trained under true qualified instruction, you don't know or understand anywhere near what you think you do.

Hats off to a self-declared modern ryu (we need more courageous souls ready to break that umbilical cord) but how have you defined 'true qualified instruction' since the departure of the founder of your weapons styles? Any peer review element beyond the oversight of the highest graded student(s) of the highest graded student(s) of ... the founder?

PS, your psychological profile is a nice try but get it: I am a genuine armchair samurai, and proudly so. Shall the Ban of Shi strike me, but I stand by the claim that one does not have to do X in order to say anything sensible about X. All you have got to do is read a lot of what people write that do X. I hear you saying: 'But surely, there is so much about X that cannot be cast into words, and you would only know that by doing X'. This my friend would be a return to the dark ages of wholesale pre-enlightenment mysticism.

[Sparv]

one of the funniest post I have ever read

:D In some way you deserve good rep points. I think that you have never see any high-ranked kendola/kenshi/kendoist (choose the one you prefer) showing his art. That simple thing is something you can't put in words: you understand why they can teach only after you have tried to do 1 percent of what they do.

BTW, it's not because I gave you the pain in the ass medal that you are an "official" pain in the ass: I'm a noob on this forum. All I wanted to do is using Fred27's very good picture.

[hyuna]

6. What I take away from the discussion so far: if one knows each other, and if one does not require ranks to motivate one's strive to push further, then there is no need for gradings (but there remains a need to award licenses to teach)
desire to get somewhere not a substitute for a map.

all the motivation in the world to go north will not be able to tell you that you are facing south. all the desire in the world to get to 125th st will not tell you that you are are still at 14th st. no amount of willpower to get home can tell you what home is.

perhaps you are talking about the formalism around grades rather than the grade itself?

[Ignatz]

. . .I am a genuine armchair samurai. . .

Not to mention an armchair intellectual.

[verissimus]

All you have got to do is read a lot of what people write that do X.

(From "Good Will Hunting")

Sean: So if I asked you about art, you'd probably give me the skinny on every art book ever written. Michelangelo, you know a lot about him. Life's work, political aspirations, him and the pope, sexual orientations, the whole works, right? But I'll bet you can't tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel. You've never actually stood there and looked up at that beautiful ceiling; seen that. If I ask you about women, you'd probably give me a syllabus about your personal favorites. You may have even been laid a few times. But you can't tell me what it feels like to wake up next to a woman and feel truly happy. You're a tough kid. And I'd ask you about war, you'd probably throw Shakespeare at me, right, "once more unto the breach dear friends." But you've never been near one. You've never held your best friend's head in your lap, watch him gasp his last breath looking to you for help. I'd ask you about love, you'd probably quote me a sonnet. But you've never looked at a woman and been totally vulnerable. Known someone that could level you with her eyes, feeling like God put an angel on earth just for you. Who could rescue you from the depths of hell. And you wouldn't know what it's like to be her angel, to have that love for her, be there forever, through anything, through cancer. And you wouldn't know about sleeping sitting up in the hospital room for two months, holding her hand, because the doctors could see in your eyes, that the terms "visiting hours" don't apply to you. You don't know about real loss, 'cause it only occurs when you've loved something more than you love yourself. And I doubt you've ever dared to love anybody that much. And look at you... I don't see an intelligent, confident man... I see a cocky, scared shitless kid. But you're a genius Will. No one denies that. No one could possibly understand the depths of you. But you presume to know everything about me because you saw a painting of mine, and you ripped my fucking life apart. You're an orphan right?
[Will nods]
Sean: You think I know the first thing about how hard your life has been, how you feel, who you are, because I read Oliver Twist? Does that encapsulate you? Personally... I don't give a shit about all that, because you know what, I can't learn anything from you, I can't read in some fuckin' book. Unless you want to talk about you, who you are. Then I'm fascinated. I'm in. But you don't want to do that do you sport? You're terrified of what you might say. Your move, chief.

[Heretic]

... Sean Monologue from "Good Will Hunting" ...

Close, and relevant (hang on for my Pt 2), but note that my suggestion is to read the Seans who write (this one doesn't).

[verissimus]

Close, and relevant (hang on for my Pt 2), but note that my suggestion is to read the Seans who write (this one doesn't).

Read the originals (if that is what you're getting at), and I assure you, you will be equally lost unless you practice what you read. Simply reading Poincare's original books on Celestial Mechanics (in French) will not get you a graduate degree in the subject. You have to stay up nights, coding, and making sense of the results.

And FWIW, Sean in GWH *did* write (watch the movie :) ).

Am waiting for Pt 2 with baited breath.

[Oroshi]

Sigh.

Reading may give you knowledge, but only doing can give you understanding.

Guess which is more relevant here. Here's a clue: we don't read in the dojo.

[ScottUK]

Bloody 'spread rep' nonsense...

[Heretic]

Sean in GWH *did* write. ... [Pointcare snippet] ...

That's the movie ordered.

No, more like: do I have to learn playing the piano in order to say anything useful regarding the skills of a gifted pianist? In deference to Sparv: yes, not just reading what initiates say / write, but also observing / experiencing what they do. Basically, all that's possible without becoming initiated to the 'inside' view that would require going through the ranks.

[verissimus]

Basically, all that's possible without becoming initiated to the 'inside' view that would require going through the ranks.

Maybe, but without knowing how skilled you are (according to widely accepted metric, i.e. rank) would I be able to trust you to impart quality instruction to me?

I know you'd mean well, but I'd rather not, thanks. The risks (for example, ruining my footwork for good) would be too great for a beginner like me.

It's for the same reason that you need a PhD to be a professor - basic minimum credibility.

[joekc6nlx]

PS, your psychological profile is a nice try but get it: I am a genuine armchair samurai, and proudly so. Shall the Ban of Shi strike me, but I stand by the claim that one does not have to do X in order to say anything sensible about X. All you have got to do is read a lot of what people write that do X. I hear you saying: 'But surely, there is so much about X that cannot be cast into words, and you would only know that by doing X'. This my friend would be a return to the dark ages of wholesale pre-enlightenment mysticism.

Ah, yes, so I should teach my children how to ride a bicycle, never having ridden one myself, but I've read lots of books on how to ride, how to maintain a bicycle, and how one should relate to other vehicles on the road. I see, I never knew that reading could be such an easy path to enlightenment.

As they say, "Them that can, do. Them that can't, teach!"

[Heretic]

Maybe, but without knowing how skilled you are (according to widely accepted metric, i.e. rank) would I be able to trust you to impart quality instruction to me?

No teaching without quality assurance and that should include assurance that a teacher can teach what they claim to teach (do you hear me Scott?). But:

a) this is only a rationale for ranking teachers, hence not the vast majority of practitioners

b) a lot of skills teaching is (and has been, including martial arts) in practice successfully quality assured by simple three tier systems (assistant, full, senior)

[ScottUK]

Care to explain?

[Heretic]

Care to explain?

The thread has gone off track a bit due to some posters insisting I declare my level of relevant experience, . I don't think I require any to be able to say sth sensible on whether Dan/Kyu grades should be abandoned. But that's another topic, for another thread maybe.

On this one here (my call to abandon grades other than teaching qualifications):

I see a lot of baggage that comes with the Dan/Kyu system, but not much speaking in its favour. This is not an argument against a system that grades teachers (both in terms of teaching and technical skill): Joe, you are right of course.

It's an argument against grading students in the way that the Dan/Kyu system does. Do I understand that correctly, that in your own dojo, you don't grade either? That's the pre-Kano way. It clearly has worked and still works well. I am mystified as to why Kano's system caught on so successfully, in particular in the West.

[ScottUK]

No, I meant explain this:
No teaching without quality assurance and that should include assurance that a teacher can teach what they claim to teach (do you hear me Scott?).

[Heretic]

No, I meant explain this ...

Well over at Flames we shed some goodwill regarding whether 'this guy' (let alone 'that guy') is skilled to teach or not. You mentioned Naginata Jutsu, and that you had seen him and his students doing that (without you being much impressed by it). You implied this also raised the question whether he had taught it to them (might it have been just for demonstration purposes?). So that relates to my point here: arguing for rankless students does not mean a free for all when it comes to teaching.

[Andoru]

Really? We have minimum gap times in between gradings - three months between kyu grade gradings, six months between ikkyu and shodan, one year between shodan and nidan and then the gaps keep getting bigger. Of course you get some skipping in the kyu grades, but that mainly occurs when someone's very remote (this is Australia, after all) and can maybe only get to gradings and instructed training every couple years. On the whole though, this ensures that everyone in the country of a certain grade *are* at roughly the same level.

In NSW it's 6 months between kyu grade gradings, 1 year between ikkyu and shodan, 1 year between shodan and nidan etc. I think that's the same in Victoria and Queensland too.

[ScottUK]

Nope. Still don't get it.

Heretic - what's your purpose here? You want to abolish grades? You having some fun with us? You just bored and indulging in some mastrollbation?

Questions:

1 - Do you formally practice an art? If so, what, where, with whom?
2 - Are you connected in any way with Mr Finn?
3 - If the two above are 'no', what's your purpose on KW, a JSA forum?

If you can't answer the above, I will add you to my very short ignore list and urge others to do the same, or ask the Genzterminator to consider your contributon here.

[Heretic]

Well over at Flames ...

Any continuation on that issue, beyond the clarification that Scott asked for, should of course revert back to Flames guys (but you'll have to play without me so that would be rather boring).

[Neil Gendzwill]

I am mystified as to why Kano's system caught on so successfully, in particular in the West.It's because Kano's system works well within large organizations. The koryu ranking system is (in simplified terms) beginner, member of the ryu, teacher. Maybe there are some finer gradations depending on ryu but that's basically it. Koryu organisations are, by and large, small. The head of the ryu is one guy, and he is responsible for everyone. But judo, kendo, mainstream iaido (IKF or ZNIR), all those things are large organizations governed by committees. There isn't one person in charge, there are millions of people involved and so having some sort of standardized grading system is handy.

[neko kenshi]

You can argue whatever you like, how seriously people take you is usually based on your credentials and experience. As for grading: It's already been brought up that it's useful for those who don't know you to have a vague idea of your skill level. I view it like the SAT/ACT, does it tell you everything you need to know? No. Is it flawed? Yes. But it is standardized and useful. I'm beginning to wonder if what I just said is relevant at all, but I'll leave it in case it is. Anywho, I still don't see why you think it's a bad thing. As for the not needing to do x to say something worthwhile about x, think of it like a sport instead of an academic subject (because it requires developed skill more than just knowledge). I can say that it would make more sense for the lacrosse players to pass more often, but I have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes down to it.

This post is crap, but I honestly don't care enough to fix it.

[ahmed61086]

I like the grading system. Taking it away would just make things confusing, and probably cause a lot of problems(ie, maybe more mcdojos?).

It give a decent understanding(most of teh times) how long someone has been doing kendo, and helps us understand seniority in the Dojo much better.

Imagine a dojo where people would be fighting with eachother over who should be listened to or not. "I have been doing kendo this long and you have been doing kendo this long, ect ect. It makes it much easier to just have Dan grades. This way we know he is sempai and Kohai period. No confusing rules.

If I am your sempai, you have to listen to me, thats thats. No back talk. If your my sempai, I have to listen to you, no back talk. Its real simple.

[Heretic]

It's because Kano's system works well within large organizations. ... There isn't one person in charge, there are millions of people involved and so having some sort of standardized grading system is handy.

Take Western gymnastics, to some extent comparable perhaps: here, the grading system applies to routines at various levels of complexity (a points system for competitions, which also provides the buidling blocks for awarding levels of achievement per sub-discipline). That seems to scale up as well, but without ranking individual practitioners as such, who remain undifferentiated from each other (apart from general skill level groups for teaching purposes: beginner, intermediate, advanced etc).

<<Scott: [yawn] the inquisition again ... you have made it to my ignore>>

[Moose]

Perhaps Heretic, you would like to see an end to Rei as well?

[ScottUK]

<<Scott: [yawn] the inquisition again ... you have made it to my ignore>>Excellent comeback - shame I can't leave you +rep.

[Heretic]

Perhaps Heretic, you would like to see an end to Rei as well?

Now we are talking!:D

[Manuka]

In it's simplest form the grading system reduces the risk of people getting hurt.

With a persons grade you have an idea of what they know, and what they do not know.

Unranked, expect them to have way to much right hand, a kote being more like driving a railroad spike than cutting wood with an axe. Yep! please do not attempt Tsuki for the next year or two.

Kata with boken, Yes I can see that knowing the level being useful.

An armchair samurai never gets tired, just like an armchair mountaineer, or sailor, but you also never attain a summit or see the sunrise after a bumpy night.

I guess beer never tastes special to you either.

[Kenzan]

This is what happens when you let people read Nietzsche and Lao Tzu all in the same weekend.

Look, Heretic,
Even the most die-hard nilhistic-existentialistic-anarchist will admit to one thing:

Knowing that something is illusory and yet still willing to participate in the "game" is the thing that separates those walking the path of a true human from the "Fashion Zen Gurus."

"Which is a fancy way of saying:
"Don't like rank, grades, or levels?"

Well, get used to it. As long as there are human-kind, so will there be such these things such as rank.

Oh, and...um..

You stink.
:silly:

[Ignatz]

. . .Knowing that something is illusory and yet still willing to participate in the "game" is the thing that separates those walking the path of a true human from the "Fashion Zen Gurus." . . .


Just shows to go you, even monkeys fall out of trees now and again.

"If nothing had any meaning, you would be right. But there is something that still has a meaning." Albert Camus rejecting nihilism.

Whooo hooo, gotta get me a beer.

[Heretic]

With a persons grade you have an idea of what they know, and what they do not know. [reducing the risk of injury in pairwise exercise].

All you hve is a rough idea of what they should know, and what they probably don't know yet. Clearly relevant for group teaching, but are grades tagged to the individual not a bit too crude here, compared to the alternative of using graded exercise routines which gives you a much more finegrained picture?

The point re. risk of injury in pairwise encounters might be more relevant, but I am not quite sure: is it knowing the grade of your Uke that prevents injury, or using grades to only match up symmetric / asymmetric skill levels?

Ultimately, I would think that the only thing that truly reduces the risk of people getting hurt is skill, so if you have an asymmetric match, the one with more skill has to take care that the two of them don't get hurt (too much ... surely pain is as good a teacher as any?).


An armchair samurai never gets tired, just like an armchair mountaineer, or sailor, but you also never attain a summit or see the sunrise after a bumpy night.

Maybe I pick different summits (Fuji San sunrise: been there, done that, better than any beer, in particular over there ...)

[Fudo-Shin]

...Whole lotta stuff!!....
Are you another Kendo Jehova?...why are you pushing your "stuff" on an audience that clearly doesn't agree with your sentiments?....this thread is achieving less than nothing, give up!

[Ignatz]

. . .been there, done that, better than any beer, in particular over there ...)

Once again the poseur reveals himself.

[Heretic]

Are you another Kendo Jehova?...why are you pushing your "stuff" on an audience that clearly doesn't agree with your sentiments?....this thread is achieving less than nothing, give up!

Amen! :cool2:
[ off flies the cork of his Gold Miner's ... ]

[Manuka]

Ultimately, I would think that the only thing that truly reduces the risk of people getting hurt is skill, so if you have an asymmetric match, the one with more skill has to take care that the two of them don't get hurt (too much ... surely pain is as good a teacher as any?).

Pain OK, injury is not, difference betweeen a shinai and a boken.




Maybe I pick different summits (Fuji San sunrise: been there, done that, better than any beer, in particular over there ...)

You do pick different summits, I prefer Robert Frost, "the one less travelled" and every one has been unique in the time I was there, the day, the weather, I have never felt "Been there, done that", very moment has been a joy.

and the beer is camraderie after, after the kendo practice, after the race or competition, after getting back from the hill, and that first beer is a beauty.

[hyuna]

I see a lot of baggage that comes with the Dan/Kyu system

one man's baggage is another man's stuff.

please don't throw away my stuff.

thank you for your consideration.

[verissimus]

The thread has gone off track a bit due to some posters insisting I declare my level of relevant experience, . I don't think I require any to be able to say sth sensible on whether Dan/Kyu grades should be abandoned.

Yes, you do, and the point is well on track. The logic follows thus:

I'm sure you'll agree that thus far your arguments have strictly been of the my-word-against-yours genre (i.e. you say this, but I think you're wrong, etc). And if I have to choose between two competing theories, I would go with the one offered by someone who at least has well-established credentials (because, as a beginner, I simply would not know better - right now, at least - unless told so by someone). This goes back to my point on a rank/degree indicating rigor of thought and method.

I'm surprised you require this aspect spelt out, since your posts appear to be written by someone at least capable of making a good point... if he/she chose to do so. I think you're arguing for the sake of argument. Apart from the GWH post (which I think is an awesome movie), I think I've wasted my breath.

[shred_lord]

Here is a simple premise for you Heretic.

The only people who can talk about the grading system authoritatively are those with some experience with it.

The only people who have the right to actually reorder the entire grading structure, are those who have experienced every part of it.

As you appear to have experienced none of it, I (and I would think most others) will not agree with you no matter how hard you try to convince us.

To be honest, you strike me as someone who's put a load of time in at a McDojo and are now pissed that if you want to play with the big boys you'll be treated like any other beginner. Grow up.

[Bokushingu]

Dear Heretic,

I don't know why but i get the feeling that you have another idenity here on the forum.

I also get the feeling that you have been involved in kendo for quite a while. Something happened in your orginization that angered you.

I may be wrong but you remind me of an angry san-dan that couldn't pass youn-dan exam a few times, but feel you are more qualified than a yon dan.

of course this is speculation...

[hyuna]

As you appear to have experienced none of it, I (and I would think most others) will not agree with you no matter how hard you try to convince us.

I'd like to think that I have an open mind. However, I haven't actually seen any arguments for restructuring the ranking system. I have only seen some vague handwaving about baggage and fudalism and such.

Sometimes the most important insights come from outsiders, because their perspective is unaffected by the need for group cohesion and such.

That said, I have yet to see any indication that Heretic even understands the ranking system as it is actually used in kendo, much less any argument for why it would be beneficial to anyone other than him or his teacher to change it.

[ScottUK]

Thanks for the neg-rep:

"Scott, once upset, will not relent in trying his best only to see the worst in whatever I do here."

All I ask is who you are and what your level is before I talk/debate/argue with you.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Take Western gymnastics, to some extent comparable perhapsSure. If you want to teach gymnastics in Canada, you're subject to the same criterion as judo instructors - 5 different levels of coaching certification. Gee, not unlike dan ranks. If you're a competitor, you are divided by your competition level and taught accordingly. There may not be a coloured belt around your waist, but you have a rank for sure.

Hockey, soccer, baseball - they all work the same way - you play in divisions organized by skill level. Lots of sports rank their competitors, it's just something you need to do. Don't know why you have such a problem with martial arts. They're not the exception. The main difference is that within a club we end up with people of different rank training together, as opposed to having a soccer team where are the kids are in the same division and practicing together.

All you hve is a rough idea of what they should knowMore than a rough idea. If I practice with someone for 2 minutes, I can tell you their dan. Actually at the lower ranks I can usually tell just watching their kirikaeshi (basic cutting exercise). If I'm wrong, it's never more than one dan. By and large, the system is pretty consistent.

[pgsmith]

Hats off to a self-declared modern ryu (we need more courageous souls ready to break that umbilical cord) but how have you defined 'true qualified instruction' since the departure of the founder of your weapons styles? Any peer review element beyond the oversight of the highest graded student(s) of the highest graded student(s) of ... the founder?
If you're attempting to speak about me and my personal training, I have continued with six years of Sekiguchi ryu under Carl McClafferty sensei, menkyo kaiden and U.S. representative. I've also trained with Yamada Yoshitaka soke of Sekiguchi ryu. I've attended various training sessions with quite a number of advanced instructors from several different arts. Meanwhile, you've trained with who exactly? ... That's what I thought you'd say! :D

PS, your psychological profile is a nice try but get it: I am a genuine armchair samurai, and proudly so. Shall the Ban of Shi strike me, but I stand by the claim that one does not have to do X in order to say anything sensible about X. All you have got to do is read a lot of what people write that do X. I hear you saying: 'But surely, there is so much about X that cannot be cast into words, and you would only know that by doing X'. This my friend would be a return to the dark ages of wholesale pre-enlightenment mysticism.
Ah, I see. So this makes you a babbler, a putz, and a liar! :) If you had no stake in any of this, you'd not be here arguing about it. This just tells me that you're afraid to reveal who you really are, or who you trained under, because then we'd all simply laugh and tell you to go away. Come to think of it, many people have already laughed at you and told you to go away, but you've refused so far.

What you've revealed to me from all of your blathering, is that you've no real idea what you're talking about. You can argue as vociferously as you like, but your words are meaningless because you are making assumptions about the subject matter since you have no real knowledge. Assumptions which are mainly incorrect by the way.

PLONK!

[ahmed61086]

Hmmmm, is it time to stop feeding the troll? He seems nice and fat from all the treats we have given him.

[joekc6nlx]

Enough is enough! :angry:

[Ignatz]

I have noticed an interesting pattern throughout my life. When faced with a question or a problem, I am usually presented with the answer or solution if I only pay attention.

Here I know that our little troll is full of it and it is easy for me to pick him apart simply based upon his putzness if you will. (He reminds me of the fellow that went to see the pyramids and rode a camel. He told his wife that the camel he rode was a male camel. She asked how he knew and he replied "Many people said, Look at the putz on that camel.")

Today there was a promotional exam in NYC and, as usual, our dojo helped out. I got the job of shuttling the examinees in and out to keep it running smoothly and, as a result, I got to see every examination from shodan to yondan.

Now I knew most of the people testing and have had the opportunity to either see their kendo or play them at various times. This was the first time I saw them all in a steady stream.

Here is what I saw in about 80 or so tests:

From shodan to yondan is NOT like a curve. It is definitely a series of steps.
Even someone who may not pass yondan is at a level different than the sandan group.
It is true that here and there you might find someone who is outstanding and could probably pass the next higher grade, but as a rule they are each a distinct step.
Someone who is aware of the steps could probably be brought in blindfolded and be shown 30 to 60 seconds of the test and tell you what grade they are testing for.

mr. heretic is simply full of beans.

[enkorat]

Hmm...

You're not upyu are you? Or one of his compatriots?

Yes, grading is elitist. It separates the people who climb the mountain from those who get to the guest lodge on the tour bus, look at the mountain, go back to the bar and drink a few beers and then go home and tell their friends they've seen the view from the top, and how hard it was to get there but yet how exhilaratingly wonderful it is...

[Bokushingu]

I don't even think this thread was really about the current ranking system. This thread was about Heretic...and he knew that when he started it. He used verbose language not because he thought he was smarter but to hide his identity.

[enkorat]

My gut feeling is that its a situation where the original poster deliberately provoked the forum audience so that his compatriots could then come and visit the thread and see how "completely trapped by orthodoxy" we were, and come away feeling better about themselves.

At the broadest view, kendo for the most of us is a hobby which we do to enjoy. There is no direct "real life application", really. If you think about it then, all hobbies (and games) share several things in common. Most hobbies are expensive, and they usually have complicated rules and traditions. They exist to make it challenging and hard, and make success an uncertain thing. Human beings find certain kinds of uncertainty (and risk) to be attractive and compelling.

Grading therefore is in a sense artificial, because we as a group have decided to accept grading in kendo as part of the rules that we play by. But taking away grading is like trying to play golf with no hole, or skydiving on the ground. Would you travel to a shiai and spend all that money thats involved with away tournaments if you knew beforehand that no one would keep score, because "in the end we're all winners"? Would you run a race if there was no finish line tape, and no one cared who came first, because "its the running thats important, not the winning"?

In the end, attacking grading is actually saying "the rules you play by are stupid", and "the game you play is stupid". Thats fine, no one is forcing you to play kendo, and you can do something else.

[Paikea]

My gut feeling is that its a situation where the original poster deliberately provoked the forum audience so that his compatriots could then come and visit the thread and see how "completely trapped by orthodoxy" we were, and come away feeling better about themselves.
Ya think? Was it the ridiculous and obviously inflammatory subject matter or the pedantic and pompous language that gave him away?

See "Contrarian Troll (http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/fieldguidetotrolls.htm)". Even Phil has his number...

[tattooedasshole]

Ya think? Was it the ridiculous and obviously inflammatory subject matter or the pedantic and pompous language that gave him away?

See "Contrarian Troll (http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/fieldguidetotrolls.htm)". Even Phil has his number...
The Deceptive or "Classic" Troll. More sophisticated but often easily identified and exposed, the Classic Troll gratifies his ego by pretending to be someone or something he or she is not. Classics make up elaborate stories about themselves, sometimes weaving some amounts of truth into their lies. As a web of lies is difficult to build with consistency, however, Classics are often "outed" by other forumites. When this happens, Classic Trolls have a bag of tricks to which they turn:
Is it just me, or is Phil describing himself here?

[Kenzan]

What Phil's trying to do, is pigeon hole just about every atypical psychology that exists in written correspondence, and then use his own guide to win internet arguments on an "ad hominem" basis.

"See! See!
Your points are invalid because you fit the (vague) "_______ troll."
"I win!!!"

He is, of course, a troll himself.
In my estimation, the man has deep-rooted psychological and emotional problems.
I'd steer clear of using *anything* he writes as a reference for *anything.* (Other than entertainment.)

[Sparv]

He is on the limit: he always says "I'm not an expert in MA", but he acts as if he is.

[hl1978]

Heretic, you're an idiot. Sorry to be so blunt, but there's no kinder way to put it. I don't know you sir, and yet I feel that I do. Let me see if I can't pin your background up here just based on reading a couple of your posts ...
You sir, have spent a number of years "training" under someone that was not authorized to teach. Your "ranks" that you feel you worked hard for, mean nothing outside of your own school, and are generally ignored by everyone else. You took what your original teacher taught you, added some stuff that you picked up from others along the way, sprinkled it with a bit of stuff that you came up with on your own, and have declared it your own "style". You've had numerous conversations with students of the traditional arts, and they all tend to pass you off as another "wannabe" that doesn't want to put in the time and effort required to get somewhere traditionally. So, now your latest crusade is to attempt to get people believing that "rank" shouldn't matter at all, and it's all in what you know. This way you feel that you will gain a bit of legitimacy. What you fail to realize though, is that since you've never "really" trained under true qualified instruction, you don't know or understand anywhere near what you think you do.

How was that, pretty close? You're far from the first with this same background to appear on-line spouting the same flawed reasoning with the same agenda.

I have no clue about that particular posters background, but on the topic at hand think the following two alternative ranking systems might be of interest to the discussion.

What about practioners of CMA, you have a number of systems with little to no ranking system at all beyond a teacher/student relationship, the exceptions being some commerical schools in the west. Under such a system, people of great skill or teaching ability are still recognized. Someone like Chen Xiao Wang, certainly one of the great Tai Chi teachers today (whom I recently had the experience to train with), certainly doesn't possess any real equivlent dan rank, yet most within the art recognize his ability.

An alternative ranking system to consider would be something along the lines of the sumo system, for purely tournament based competitors, where the truely great can keep their rank forver (yokozuna), while others ranks go up and down based on tournament performance.

I've seen similiar ranking arguments by Rob Redmond, and a number of MMA enthusiasts, who liken reciving a martial arts rank to recieving your B.S. 40 years ago. are you really in the same top form, or in the case of the degree, still know the entirety of the curriclum, not just your specialized subject area 40 years later? (I certainly don't remember all of the chemistry I had to take as a EE) Anyways those arguments are usualy applied against obviously out of shape practioners with high ranks, or who have not trained in years.

I believe it is easier to continue that line of reasoning in empty hand arts where power and speed are a bit more important, due to the level of contact. Its not like we are submitting/knocking people down in kendo.

Im not personally preoccupied with rank, I see benefits (tournament placement, being able to track how far you are up the mountain, teaching qualifcations etc), but don't see it as an essential part of martial arts since plenty of martial arts don't apply it, or at least dont apply the kyu/dan system.

On a side note:
Enkorat, I don't think Upyu is involved in this discussion. Akuzawa comes from a CMA/koryu background, and has never in any of my conversations with him given any explicit thoughts on ranking, nor does he award ranks either.

[Kenzan]

Sparv Wrote:
He is on the limit: he always says "I'm not an expert in MA", but he acts as if he is.


If you ask me, the only thing he's an expert on is pulling the wool over some people's eyes.
:wink:

[enkorat]

I think at the end, I have a fundamental difference of opinion, or perhaps a difference of personality.

When faced with a challenge or failure my first reaction isn't "this is crap, obviously the problem is the system, not me, thus the system must be changed"

I don't really understand this whole preoccupation with wanting to change things, particularly something as relatively inconsequential as a hobby. There are things that I hold dear to my heart that I would lay down my life for, and political fights that I wage every day a little at a time because I think they are worth fighting for. Many of these fights I fight because I have no choice. Kendo is a free choice.

At the end of the day, I do kendo because I find it personally fufilling on many levels, including the ranking system. There are things that I like less about kendo, and there are things I like more about kendo. But in the end I play by the rules, because without those rules it wouldn't be kendo, and I wouldn't be a good sportsman.

There are many hobbies that I personally find not fufilling or not attractive. Indeed, there are hobbies that I find ridiculous, absurd, or inane. Therefore I do not do them, but I still respect people's passion about them, and so I shrug and think "there are all types". Perhaps provoking flame wars is someone's idea of a hobby, who knows.

Besides, no one says kendo is or is supposed to be perfect. Its supposed to help you face imperfect situations with grace.

[verissimus]

there are things I like more about kendo. But in the end I play by the rules, because without those rules it wouldn't be kendo, ...

Could not resist:

Red Forman: Without rules, we all might as well be up in a tree flinging our crap at each other.

:silly:

[Heretic]

Mu anybody?

[leans forward in her armchair, down to the crowd that keeps feeding this thread; takes off her sunglasses - originally put on not to be blinded by the obvious]

A troll only ever exists in the eyes of the beholder, so why all that pointless geek-speak? Surely, the best way to test an important idea is to push its limits. If all I had got back was a thunderous 'go away', then this forum clearly would have been what some obviously would like it to be: a church run by a hierarchical clique of elders, putting everybody in their place (Ossu!).

Luckily, and to the credit of those who run it, this is an open and largely democratic place (some noobs feel too shy about their potential contrib though). The way I see it, Neil's and Ignatz's points clinch it: they have managed to convince this outsider (get it: no steaks here, Buster!) that ranks do serve some useful purpose within the well-ordered and civilised world of mass-Kendo and perhaps even beyond, alongside coaching qualifications. Quite apart from their sentimental value that will keep them in place forever :tired:

My original question - taisabaki against the inquisition - is not mine at all, it has popped up in various forms over the years (did sb say 'Redmond'?) so I thought why not grace your forum with it. Impressed as I had been with the level of competent and serious discussion that one can witness in many threads, I was sure ppl would pick it up and run with it. Scott, who I have been told is actually a decent chap despite a regretable weakness for the v-ulgaire, was the first to admit that something has come out of that. V-eni, v-idi, v-ici :tongue:

No doubt, density of usefull discussion is comparatively high here (rec.martial-arts anybody?) due to forum members volunteering their true identities. Heretic will not give hers because she has none (if that strikes you as odd then go feast on the Bungle Affair (http://www.juliandibbell.com/texts/bungle.html); the last two paragraphs all the way down the page will do if you don't have time to read it all). She is running an open social experiment on whether the forum will eventually come to accept her in spite of all her faults and shortcomings :cyclops: But not below Yondan ...

[neko kenshi]

Come on, referring to yourself in the third person, using condescending remarks, refusing to reveal your identity, attempting to make yourself sound intelligent with needless complexity, you're obviously a teenager. I'm guessing 14 (and if not, then you seem it). Face it, yondans (if I'm not incorrect in assuming you claim yourself to be one) don't act like that.

[Paikea]

V-eni, v-idi, v-ici :p
Excellent, thanks for playing.

[Bokushingu]

Luckily, and to the credit of those who run it, this is an open and largely democratic place (some noobs feel too shy about their potential contrib though). The way I see it, Neil's and Ignatz's points clinch it: they have managed to convince this outsider (get it: no steaks here, Buster!) that ranks do serve some useful purpose within the well-ordered and civilised world of mass-Kendo and perhaps even beyond, alongside coaching qualifications. Quite apart from their sentimental value that will keep them in place forever

Just as i thought. you seem to have some problem with Neil Sensei & Ignatz Sensei. all your post point to that.


She is running an open social experiment on whether the forum will eventually come to accept her in spite of all her faults and shortcomings But not below Yondan ...

you are definately unhappy with your current rank. And you definately have another idenity on this forum probably someone with a high post count. I hope that you will feel better & move on with what's bothering you. Just let it go...ain't worth the frustration.

[Kingofmyrrh]

you are definately unhappy with your current rank. And you definately have another idenity on this forum probably someone with a high post count. I hope that you will feel better & move on with what's bothering you. Just let it go...ain't worth the frustration.

Not that this means you don't know this person of course, but their spelling would tend to suggest that they are actually British.. or Aus/Can or somewhere else that uses British English.

[Fudo-Shin]

Dare I say it, but she has such a beautiful way with words. She is obviously not connected to Kendo though, hence why she does not understand the traditional values that we, who are connected, do not question. Whether I agreed with her confrontational remarks or not I enjoyed reading her posts. I do appreciate her willingness to question tradition on certain things and think for herself, however nobody should lobby to change a system that they have not been through IMO. Surely she can see the sense in that.

I thought she was someone else that posts/argues here, but she is too well written to be that person IMO. Although I do not agree with her, I respect her. If we were all lambs being led to the slaughterhouse, she might well be the one who escapes....perhaps only to find out that we were being led to the water.

[ScottUK]

3rd person female? This is a new development. You refer to yourself as she/her too many times - are you trying to hide your footprints?


Scott, who I have been told is actually a decent chap despite a regretable weakness for the v-ulgaireHehe who told you that? I'll have a word with 'em... :)

[bullet08]

She is running an open social experiment on whether the forum will eventually come to accept her in spite of all her faults and shortcomings :cyclops: But not below Yondan ...

pick up a shinai and join a kendo dojo.. that's all it's needed here to be accepted.

pete

[tilt]

As they say, "Them that can, do. Them that can't, teach!"

And them that can't teach, teach P.E.

[Andrew S]

So, Heretic:
What is your problem with grades? Is it you don't like being pigeon-holed? You think they are archaic? Too regimented or militaristic for your liking? Associated with a different culture?
I don't think you have stated any background for your position, or even stated any part of position other than "I don't agree with grades."
This is not helpful at all. Neither is your shroud of secrecy and pseudo-intellectual writing. Hell, even Kensenbatsusai can do that.
Want to be taken seriously? Be honest with us about yourself, quit with the trollish behaviour, and stop feeling that you have to disagree with everyone.

[Ignatz]

Excellent, thanks for playing.

Do we have a parting gift for our lovely contestant?

[ScottUK]

Don't hold your breath yet... the he/she teen/adult kenshi/donkey may yet return.

[Chaby]

Back in 2005, when nanadan sensei Wolfgang Demski visited Belgrade, he said something that glued to my mind!
He said:
At examine for the sandan(not really sure) he failed the first time, but learned a lot!

At second attempt,failed again,and learned even more!

The third attempt, yet again unsuccessful, but worthy lesson.

The fourth attempt was successful but did not learned a lot from it!

[Paikea]

Do we have a parting gift for our lovely contestant?A swift kick in the ass?

[Heretic]

Good heavens, Kendoplayer throwing a kick ... we'll hang on for that sight!:cheeky:

[Kenzan]

Good heavens, Kendoplayer throwing a kick ... we'll hang on for that sight!:cheeky:

WAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Oh..(wipes tear) oh my! That was awsome!
You are SOOOOOOO funny!
Do you wrote your own material!
I mean, because that's was sensational!
I mean...you took Paikea's words,...and then you twisted them out of context to add to this everyday situation!
I mean, "Good heavens, Kendoplayer throwing a kick ... we'll hang on for that sight!"

Simply Hysterical!

How DO you come up with these delightful comedic zingers?
...Oh my god you are SOOOOOOO Funny (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=1624650716)!

[Heretic]

Been hoping all along that tatoo would oblige, but that'll do too :-)

[pgsmith]

Thanks Kenzan,
It does me no good to have the idiot on my ignore list if you're going to quote what it writes so I read it anyway!

You owe me for that! :D

[Andrew S]

Well, Heretic hasn't answered my questions but still found time to post.

Again:
Why do you disagree with the grading system in kendo, and what are your reasons for doing so?

[ScottUK]

Andrew, don't fret - he/she doesn't answer my questions either...

[Kenzan]

Thanks Kenzan,
It does me no good to have the idiot on my ignore list if you're going to quote what it writes so I read it anyway!

You owe me for that! :D

LOL
What "it" writes....
Yes..m'precious....We thinks it tastes good does it? Mah preeeecious!
LOL
:D

[Andrew S]

Andrew, don't fret - he/she doesn't answer my questions either...
Not fretting, just trotting over the bridge a bit louder than usual.



What "it" writes....
Yes..m'precious....We thinks it tastes good does it? Mah preeeecious!
Must spread reputation blah blah.:tongue:

[pgsmith]

What "it" writes....
Yeah well, I'm not really sure if it's male or female, kid or psycho. It seemed to fit better than any other description.

Hey Scott,
Sorta reminds me of our old friend Marubaii, except with better grammar and vocabulary. It would certainly fit the profile I posted though. :)

[ScottUK]

I miss Marubaii, even though she had toys in her attic.

[ReKru]

Yeah well, I'm not really sure if it's male or female, kid or psycho.

Most likely a bunch of bored teenies sitting their asses off in an internet cafe in some godforsaken village where throwing tin cans at cats was the biggest entertainment a young person could get, before thar intraweb was invented.

God bless thar intraweb! It's the opium of (for?) the masses, ruled by the elite of angsty emo teens. :ko:

[Newbie]

Hey Heretic, if you're actually serious and not the pathetic little twerp just trolling that you appear, then if you read a certain little book called Budo, Mind and Body, then the reasons behind grades and why they're important, as well as why, in a good explanation, you cannot understand the concepts or techniques of martial arts without practising them, is explained in the very first chapter.

[Kenzan]

Sadly, It appears that we are now not wholly unlike a discarded tissue in Heretic's post-masturbatory romp.
:confused2

[verissimus]

What a waste of time. Henceforth I shall keep awesome movie quotes to myself. :(

[Bokushingu]

Sadly, It appears that we are now not wholly unlike a discarded tissue in Heretic's post-masturbatory romp.
:confused2


LMAO man, i bet you can keep a room full of people smiling & laughing all night long :)

[Fudo-Shin]

LMAO man, i bet you can keep a room full of people smiling & laughing all night long :)Yeah, but don't ask how....:ko:, the mods won't be happy.