Gedan no kamae

[weldon87]

has anyone ever seen this technique
it is a defense technique (yes defending in kendo) the stance is holding your shinai pointing to the ground

[sminki]

has anyone ever seen this technique
it is a defense technique (yes defending in kendo) the stance is holding your shinai pointing to the ground

Not much of a "technique", is it?

Gedan is a defensive, rather than an offensive kamae. However, I have never seen it done in a keiko or tournament context. People sometimes lower the kensen to the waistline or slightly lower for a moment or two during keiko or shiai, but I don't know if that qualifies as gedan.

[aru-ma]

Not much of a "technique", is it?

Gedan is a defensive, rather than an offensive kamae. However, I have never seen it done in a keiko or tournament context. People sometimes lower the kensen to the waistline or slightly lower for a moment or two during keiko or shiai, but I don't know if that qualifies as gedan.

I've never seen gedan used in a keiko/shiai either,nor have I seen anyone in hasso or waki-kamae, the only time I've seen it used is in kata. as for the reason why hardly anyone uses it, it's just not practicle for shiai and the only waza I can see from gedan is kaeshi do,kote maybe tsuki, but I doubt it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I've never seen gedan used in a keiko/shiai either,nor have I seen anyone in hasso or waki-kamae, the only time I've seen it used is in kata. as for the reason why hardly anyone uses it, it's just not practicle for shiai and the only waza I can see from gedan is kaeshi do,kote maybe tsuki, but I doubt it.
Gedan is a posture which says "I believe I am going to die in this fight, so I'm going to take you out, too". It's tough to win from there, but pretty easy to tie.

For shinai kendo, it's a little slow. Lots of people will use a modified version, keep the tip flat or a little lower and hope the aite tries kote - suriagi from there is very strong. From full gedan with shinai, aiuchi is about all you can hope for.

[JSchmidt]

I've seen (and fought) people who used gedan and hasso, but never waki.

Jakob

[weldon87]

i've seen waki used in kata, but another technique i haven't seen is nito no kamae has anyone seen that technique?

[aru-ma]

Nito? yes I've seen people use nito, I've seen Toda sensei in nito, tought us how to fight in nito several weeks back. you use a 37" shnai in one hand and a shotto/kodachi in the other, usually daito on the left hand. Not my personal favorite though.

[Charlie]

Gedan is a posture which says "I believe I am going to die in this fight, so I'm going to take you out, too". It's tough to win from there, but pretty easy to tie.

For shinai kendo, it's a little slow. Lots of people will use a modified version, keep the tip flat or a little lower and hope the aite tries kote - suriagi from there is very strong. From full gedan with shinai, aiuchi is about all you can hope for.

It has really messed with me in the past, Neil. I think it's mostly in my head. But I know a couple of guys - both Koreans, I think - that get it real low and invite me in, then try to pick of my kote as I attack.

I've defused this a few times by just not falling for it, and while I was baffled by it at first I noticed after a while that it - didn't usually work! When the guy goes for my kote from down there he usually misses. Or the maai is off. Anywho, I've had some success just going for men and tsuki.

Your thoughts?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I haven't tried much kote from there - I wait for the aite to try kote, then suriagi-men is my counter of choice.

If they're really low, just hit men. They can't come up fast enough from there to counter very effectively.

[emitbrownne]

Where is the threat in Kendo from Gedan?
Fencing Naginata where the shin is a target, I can understand the threat, but in Kendo surely you can concentrate on cutting your opponent and dont worry about the shinai in Gedan?

Or am I being dim again?!?!

[mingshi]

Anyone heard of the term "Gedan Seme"? :confused:

(...not the Gedan as in Kendo Kata. I think it is higher up, like, at tare level. )

Gedan Tsuki was one of the waza as I read...

[Neil Gendzwill]

Where is the threat in Kendo from Gedan?
Because it's so low, you really can't get it out of the way before you attack with any harai-waza or uchio-toshi or anything like that. So you really must rely on seme, otherwise the gedan guy is simply going to raise his sword as you come down with yours and hit you tsuki. As we're talking real swords here, he only has to come up level and he has you somewhere on the torso.

[Charlie]

Because it's so low, you really can't get it out of the way before you attack with any harai-waza or uchio-toshi or anything like that. So you really must rely on seme, otherwise the gedan guy is simply going to raise his sword as you come down with yours and hit you tsuki. As we're talking real swords here, he only has to come up level and he has you somewhere on the torso.

Right. Try fencing against someone who is pretty good at it, it is a threatening feeling.

[Nishi]

I use geidan to hit kote... I keep lots of pressure on my opponent and move in with the feeling of " hit my men, i'll bet i get that kote first". Usually if you do it right your opponent will lose site of your shinai under their own shinai, and this starts the doubts, sometimes they even move their shinai to the left to see your shinai, opening kote or even tsuki if you can attack straight enough. The fact that your shinai is hidden and your opponent loses depth perception, gives you your chance here, enter with confidence and a feeling of debana.

You can even use harai-waza if your opponent shows no suki in his kamae. Its cocky-kendo....lol!!!

[samurai999]

Anyone heard of the term "Gedan Seme"? :confused:

(...not the Gedan as in Kendo Kata. I think it is higher up, like, at tare level. )

Gedan Tsuki was one of the waza as I read...

Yikes.. If i ever play keiko with you, remind me to wear extra protection... From what you are saying, gedan seme is aimed right for the male.. ahem... :dead:

Tim

[Eldritch Knight]

I was taught that gedan pointed towards the knee (as opposed to chuudan which points towards the throat)...

[lwegerich]

has anyone ever seen this technique
it is a defense technique (yes defending in kendo) the stance is holding your shinai pointing to the ground

I've been told gedan no kamae is a defensive stand which was used in real combat against spears (naginatas or spears used in sojutsu).

Guess the spearmen tend to attack the legs of the swordmen.

I've also been told the typical "sequence" of a fight between samurai armies was bow, spear and then sword. Makes sense for me regarding the range of these weapons.

Lars

[Nishi]

I was taught that gedan pointed towards the knee (as opposed to chuudan which points towards the throat)...

If you look at geidan in terms of kata, then i suppose it does aim at the knees (not as a target however). In kata #6 we see shidachi take giedan, and he applies seme in the way of a threat to the hands and wrists of uchidachi...my sensei's have stressed this advantage is due to uchidachi's loss of depth perception, so uchidachi takes jodan, because he was pressured and by raising his sword he exposes shidachi's sword...of course shidachi continues the pressure and the kata goes on.....

I notice some of the pre-war footage ive seen, geidan is pointed more to motodachi's lower belly, same with kamae o'toku(sp).

Just an observation.

[Rularn]

Anyone heard of the term "Gedan Seme"? :confused:

(...not the Gedan as in Kendo Kata. I think it is higher up, like, at tare level. )

Gedan Tsuki was one of the waza as I read...

Well, gedan isn't really completely defensive. You can use it to lure men-kiashi-dou. I can even hit men from gedan incorporating harai to sweep their shinai out of the way as I go for men. Though like jodan, you can't really stay in gedan for too long. You have to move or make the other guy move once you get into it otherwise it loses it's tempo.

[Nishi]

...Though like jodan, you can't really stay in gedan for too long.....

You can actually stay in jodan forever. As for gedan, when you take this kamae against an opponent it usually works because the opponent is unfamiliar with it. If you think in terms of chudan, the distance from this kamae to the "men" is approximatley the same distance from gedan is to the "kote"...of course in chudan your distance to "kote" is optimum as well as the "men"...The downside is gedan opens and invites attacks to your own "men", and with your only target realisticly "kote", you are instigating a race..."my men for your kote".

Gedan seme...jodan seme...chudan etc etc...no such thing! Just seme...it shouldnt matter whats in your hands or what kamae your in.

[tango]

Wow!
I'm really impressed with the responses I've seen on this board..

True, gedan in shiai is much different than gedan in kata. I think anybody who uses 'kata gedan' in shiai might as well put a bumper sticker on his men that reads: Strike HERE.

I've watched many people use a gedan in shiai with mixed results, but the ones I've seen who have been able to use it *effectively* are more experienced players with a very good sense of maai.

[moocow65]

hahah i used to do gedan no kamae when i was ummm 3-kyu or 2-kyu. my gedan would be similar to the gedan you do after you do a kata...(gedan kamae and take five steps back). boy, the shinpan didn't like 13-year old doing that. but it was really effective for me. the good thing is that, it is more difficult for your opponent to calculate the distance between you and him because he can't really use your shinai to judge the distance. if they come in for men, you can just use the "uppercut tsuki" to stop them in their tracks. just watch out for the tsuki coming at you. but since i was only a kyu, they couldn't hit tsuki, so the only thing that was open was men. my main waza i used from gedan was men. i can do a faster men from gedan than i could from seigan. and that was really effective. a few years later, a sensei from japan (oomori sensei) practiced at our dojo for a few months. he was GOOD. he also hit men from gedan sometimes and it was FAST.

[Chusan]

I`m using both gedan and hasso kamae as well-working stances.
Gedan is fine for opposing jodan-kamae, hasso isn`t that bad for hitting kote (it really is!), though it tends to become some kind of katsugi-waza.
Nevertheless, gedan is useful against jodan.