Why do you think its disrespectful?

[The great I AM]

So, having snooped my way around a few threads, posted a little bit of random nonsense from my stream of conciousness, I've noticed a few things like this:


by trying to maki age/otoshi their shinai away, you are basicaly telling the sensei his kamae and grip is weak.


I was told that if someone uses jodan, or fights nito, and there is no physical reason why they can't do chudan, that its like they're telling you that their kendo is so much better than yours, they don't have to fight you in chudan. I have actually been told I should be offended if someone uses jodan against me.
Those are the two that jumped at me today.

Where does this sort of thinking come from, or start? Surely when practising with someone, in particular my sensei, I want to give them my strongest techniques, and learn from them beating these techniques? What do I get from pandering to them by not using my best kendo and essentially "allowing" them to kick my ass as opposed to trying to beat them and "getting" my ass kicked? Its a big difference.

This sort of thing has me totally confused. On the one hand we've got trying your hardest and improving your kendo, and on the other we've got "you can't do that because he's a teacher/its supposedly rude/pick your reason."

Puzzled.....anyone who thinks like this care to ellaborate on the whys and wherefores? At the moment it just seems quite a closed and limited way of thinking, and perhaps playing far too much to one side of the "respect your seniors" idea.

[dwez]

I don't know if this is similar but I was warned on Saturday that there were women on the opposing team and therefore not to tsuki, not that I would.

Now obviously tsuki carries it's own set of issues anyway but it's a legitimate target and if one was significantly more adept at it why would it be OK to receive a tsuki but not be able to do it in return?

I'd imagine a stray do cut would be potentially more inappropriate than tsuki against women. I'd imagine someone who is six grades above me would find it far more insulting that I shouldn't use tsuki because of her gender than if I did use it and she felt 'disrespect for a senior'.

[cesarekim]

My sensei once told me that anything goes in shiai but not in jigeiko. His idea of jigeiko is to improve your kendo not win. Having said that, he once mentioned how disrespectful a nanadan had been at a shimpan seminar by going jodan on him right at the beginning of jigeiko. He had no qualms pummelling him for it. For some reason, he does not seem to object when people here in Italy try jodan on him but I guess the nanadan was a Japanese person in his 50's who should have known better.

Going back to a thread I started last year, tsuki is one of those no-no waza. I regularly get scolded for not taking the opportunity when it's given to me by my sensei. Having said that, I will rarely try katate yoko-men on a senior (actually anyone) while I will definitely try katate-tsuki. Weird....

My personal understanding on this is that courtesy as pertaining to specific waza or kamae is a perception based more on the person doing the action rather than on the waza or kamae itself. I vaguely remember one occasion where a nanadan had to be told to go to jodan during a demonstration by one of the hachidan there. He had not taken this kamae despite the fact it was his normal kamae out of respect for the sensei he was practicing with...

[Fudo-Shin]

It just doesn't make sense to me. Why wouldn't you explore every possible way to play well against Sensei?

But I have found myself in a situation/s, where an Old-school Japanese Sensei would only let me cut Men and Kote when I thought I was capable of much more, it felt more like waza-geiko. I conformed then out of respect, I could sense a boundary and I consider myself a classic non-conformist. So I can understand why some Kendoka (particularly in Japan I think) feel limited with their Kendo vocabulary against Sensei. Just depends on the sensei.

But I thank "Kendo's Jehova" that my regular Japanese Sensei here let's me try my hand at anything during Keiko,.. maki-otoshi, tsuki and even a bit of Jukendo if we see a good chance (mucking around on a personal level of course). I think it's healthy to mix it up, but then again it's good to have your Kendo picked apart and re-constructed by those strict Kendo purist sensei...Doshio??

As for the Jodan thing, if he takes to Jodan, no offence taken,...but hello tsuki, but I don't know any Sensei who play Jodan anyway. And I wouldn't attempt tsuki on a Sensei I didn't know well. Hope I aided in opening the debate.

[JSchmidt]

I don't know if this is similar but I was warned on Saturday that there were women on the opposing team and therefore not to tsuki, not that I would.


It's actually part of the BKA shiai rules, that tsuki is not allowed in mixed gender matches, unless one of them is in jodan/nito.

Jakob

[Fudo-Shin]

Let me re-phrase something,... I wouldn't try Tsuki on any Sensei I didn't know extremely well, even if he took to Jodan. Not that I have been in that situation anyway.

[JoDuncan]

My Sensei has also commented on jodan.

He said that in Japan you should ask if you can fight in jodan. It's a very high level technique so it's a long way off for me.

As for the maki, i asked why it is direspectful also. Seems like a perfectly legitimate (and bad ass) technique to pull out every so often.

[cesarekim]

SNIP
But I thank "Kendo's Jehova" that my regular Japanese Sensei here let's me try my hand at anything during Keiko,.. maki-otoshi, tsuki and even a bit of Jukendo if we see a good chance (mucking around on a personal level of course). I think it's healthy to mix it up, but then again it's good to have your Kendo picked apart and re-constructed by those strict Kendo purist sensei...Doshio??
SNIP

Is jukendo when you get to use old rules including ashi barai and throw the kote at your aite? :eek:

PS: I will try katate and tsuki stuff with sensei but ONLY with the ones I actually know and have had at least a drink with... Sorry if I wasn't explicit above...

[Fudo-Shin]

Is jukendo when you get to use old rules including ashi barai and throw the kote at your aite? :eek:Well...only the tripping each other over (gently) part. Mucking around.

[cesarekim]

I only get to do that when it's a private session with my peers. Adds a whole new dimension to tsubatseriai... lots of fun ;)

I shudder to think how sensei or kohai would react to us doing this in general practice. I can almost see my sensei picking me up by the privates and hitting me over the head with the tsuka...

[A Wadlow]

Let me re-phrase something,... I wouldn't try Tsuki on any Sensei I didn't know extremely well, even if he took to Jodan. Not that I have been in that situation anyway.

tsuki his boots off. Nothing wrong with that.

I somtimes have a problem fighting two perticular sensei's as its quite hard to have the "i'm going to crush you" attitude against them because I feel like a twat. Its just a subconsious thing I'm trying to get rid of. And as Jehova said its all a bit of budo anyway.

[ScottUK]

Is jukendo when you get to use old rules including ashi barai and throw the kote at your aite? :eek:No, Jukendo is the Way of the Bayonet.

Picture here (http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/fuchusi.jukendo.renmei/SAMPLE/SAMPLE/17nentominsiaihukei.JPG).

[GavinP]

As a newcomer I can definitely understand the 'that's an advanced technique, why don't you stick with this for now' thinking. You have to get the basics right before the more advanced stuff. In a competition (shiai?) I think it would be disrespectful NOT to give them your very best whether that be jodan, trying for tsuki or whatever. Anything less is like telling your opponent that you don't need to try to beat them.

In training, well you do whatever it is that you are supposed to be learning... but isn't that the perfect place to be trying to better your Kendo? How are you going to learn to go against jodan if no-one ever does it in training because it is supposedly disrespectful?

[Fudo-Shin]

No, Jukendo is the Way of the Bayonet.

Picture here (http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/fuchusi.jukendo.renmei/SAMPLE/SAMPLE/17nentominsiaihukei.JPG).Sorry, I should have said Pre-War Kendo. I'm no expert in either, hence why I refer to it as "mucking around". Nice picture BTW.

[A Wadlow]

No, Jukendo is the Way of the Bayonet.

Picture here (http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/fuchusi.jukendo.renmei/SAMPLE/SAMPLE/17nentominsiaihukei.JPG).


That just looks rubbish.

I was half expecting the link to be a trick, tubgirl or meatspin.

[ScottUK]

That just looks rubbish.I saw some of this last year. All tsuki waza with a big stick with nothing more than a rubber stopper on the end of it. Rather you than me.


I was half expecting the link to be a trick, tubgirl or meatspin.Has there been a Tubgibbo yet? :eek: :D

[The great I AM]

In training, well you do whatever it is that you are supposed to be learning... but isn't that the perfect place to be trying to better your Kendo? How are you going to learn to go against jodan if no-one ever does it in training because it is supposedly disrespectful?This is what I don't get, and also why I'm puzzled by the post above I quoted saying that by trying makiwaza with your teacher you are implying his grip and kamae aren't good enough. Surely then by that reasoning I shouldn't be trying debana waza either then, because it implies that my sensei's timing is not good enough......how the hell would I learn anything. What piffle!

[Fudo-Shin]

Has there been a Tubgibbo yet? :eek: :DOk, curiosity got the better of me, I googled....I should have known better. I'm glad I didn't do an image search. I don't wanna know about the meatspin.

[The great I AM]

I saw some of this last year. All tsuki waza with a big stick with nothing more than a rubber stopper on the end of it. Rather you than me.

Has there been a Tubgibbo yet? :eek: :DThere will be when I have my next Curry and Stella Combo for dinner. Won't be in no bath tub neither. Probably all over the inside of my bed.

Mmmm, double post bed-gibbo goodness.

[A Wadlow]

Ok, curiosity got the better of me, I googled....I should have known better. I'm glad I didn't do an image search. I don't wanna know about the meatspin.

:D HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Tubgirl - 1
Curiosity restraint - 0

[ScottUK]

Hehe, not every image with the word 'girl' in can be considered good. :)

[enkorat]

I can give you the reasons that I've overheard and watching my senseis and sempai do jodan and nito, at least for jodan and nito....

First I think it boils down to the idea that nito and jodan are considered "advanced" techniques, and by doing them regardless of your original motivation, people might interpret your choice as saying that you have essentially "mastered" chudan, and don't need to practice it any more. So if you do either jodan or nito, you have to do it very well, and there isn't much middle ground. I think this practically means that for a while you have to practice either jodan or nito "secretly", and then all of a sudden "reveal" that you can "magically" do either jodan or nito. I think its kinda funny, but probably a good idea.

Second, since both jodan and nito is relatively rare, I think it falls under the whole "look at me I'm being different" thing that Japanese culture seems to be allergic to.

Third, particularly with nito, maybe not so much with jodan, since its rare I have a gut feeling that many shimpan may not have as much experience judging what constitutes an ippon. Therefore in order to score using either nito or jodan, your "ippon" has to be even more "definitive" than if it were made from chudan. This I think gets rid of that grey area that sometimes exists in chudan shiai kendo where you can be "sloppy" but still score. So it makes someones jodan or nito look either extremely strong, or extremely weak.

On occasion I've seen mudansha attempt either nito or jodan in shiai, and having practice now with seniors and senseis who regularly do both and sort of see "how it should be done", I'm beginning to understand the caveat about how you really need to have a firm understanding of maai before you do either.

Anyway, that's what I've seen...

[Frame]

these same people who interpret your choice as saying that you have essentially "mastered" chudan probably also must of heard the you can never master kendo/men cut/chudan

From this i can only conclude that they think no one should ever practice jodan. nito or techniques such as tsuki.

Balls to that

[ScottUK]

I did a decent men cut once. Can I have a go at jodanwaza? :)

[The great I AM]

First I think it boils down to the idea that nito and jodan are considered "advanced" techniques, and by doing them regardless of your original motivation, people might interpret your choice as saying that you have essentially "mastered" chudan, and don't need to practice it any more. So if you do either jodan or nito, you have to do it very well, and there isn't much middle ground. This is probably the most relevant part of it I guess, at least as far as "doing jodan is rude" comes from, though again it does kind of mystify given that you get highschool kids doing it. I know some people will come back to this and say that these guys are different, they are better than us, xyz, but it gets kind of tedious to hear constantly that you have to be #dan in order to do jodan, because of the ideas involved in it. You'd never have anyone outside japan do jodan if this were really the case.

Its kind of sad that many people do think that you can only do jodan once you have mastered chudan, but what does that realistically entail? This opinion varies hideously from person to person, which invariably muddies the waters even further! I personally would like to see more people doing jodan. Although its not my own cup of tea (I like the flexibility offered by chudan more than what jodan can give me) I enjoy seeing people doing jodan, and certainly enjoy fighting against it.


I think this practically means that for a while you have to practice either jodan or nito "secretly", and then all of a sudden "reveal" that you can "magically" do either jodan or nito. I think its kinda funny, but probably a good idea.
I find this quietly amusing whenever I hear about it. If you haven't got the balls to come out with it and say to your teacher straight up "I want to do jodan, please teach me" then what the hell makes these guys think they've got the balls to do jodan! Brilliant!

[Newbie]

It's actually part of the BKA shiai rules, that tsuki is not allowed in mixed gender matches, unless one of them is in jodan/nito.

Really? How bizarre. Any idea why?

[ScottUK]

Sexism. :D

We can hurt other guys but not the ladies... oh, no - they're too delicate. :rolleyes:

[A Wadlow]

I find this quietly amusing whenever I hear about it. If you haven't got the balls to come out with it and say to your teacher straight up "I want to do jodan, please teach me" then what the hell makes these guys think they've got the balls to do jodan! Brilliant!

Everyone likes to hate the person who does stuff differently, whether its the left handed kid at school that you pissed on in the corner of the playground or the person who though he would bring back the shell suit, mullet and big gold chains.

Yes leave starting jodan atleast untill you have a grasp of chudan and realised that you don't like it. But you don't have to wait till your 6th dan and have spent enough of your life contemplaiting why your doing something you don't like. There is a perfect example of a guy in our club doing that and its worked very well for him. I believe JSchmidt started jodan a while into his kendo life as well.

[Newbie]

We can hurt other guys but not the ladies... oh, no - they're too delicate.

We are? Riiiiiiight... Been called a lot of things. Never delicate.

[akumalkenshi]

my guess is the attitude towards certain techniques, can vary from person to person, and be subjective to their own interpretation. Therefore to the misunderstanding that leads to a wrong idea of respect or disrespect.

From reading this, I gather that is best to ask before hand if they mind that you are tfrying to pull your full repertory of skills on them.

if they say "No Jodan" "no tsuki" then it would be disrespectfull to attempt it on them.

my teacher tells me that advanced techniques are frown upon when you fail. in other words, its worst to attempt a katate waza or tsuki and miss, than doing it at all.

I play it by ear, and seldom use tsuki. but i'll take a jodan stance as a tsuki invitation regardless of the rank of my opponent.

keep it coming.....

[Charlie]

I think some of you are ignoring the cultural considerations that go into this. What it is, as I see it, is that for many people learning kendo culture is also learning Japanese culture. In doing so, we are told to try to imitate our sempai and anticipate the proper reigi for various situations.

You can frequently get conflicting advice on this sort of thing, or various situations require a degree of finesse or complexity that you may not understand unless someone spells it out for you (and maybe not even then! I'm still, in my opinion, lousy at the gift-givig practice). So people learning kendo try to lock on to the correct behavior and pass that on to their peers and kohai.

Adding to that is that some Japanese will expect some situations to be interpreted the way they would in Nippon, while others allow for the fact that they are in an international audience. And then there's the age thing. So in other words, a Japanese of a certain age might not be used to an international kenshi and could get confused by an action and/or interpret it as rude, whereas a different kenshi in the same situation would shrug and say "no biggie" and maybe even point out the behavior.

I'm in agreement with Gibbs, though, that the waza he describes is perfectly appropriate to do against sensei. Otoshi can sometimes be interpreted as aggresive, a smacking away of kamae as if to say, "Get that thing outta my way." But where does a maki-otoshi end and a harai begin? Too, with kamae, if you practice jodan and take it with a new sensei, they may go, "Oh, all right, let's see what this kid can do," or they may go, "What the hell? Who the hell do you think you are?"

I guess the point is we tell kohai to pay attention and imitate their sempai and we shouldn't be surprised that they are trying to learn the rei of things and store them as a set of concrete rules. At some point they will learn, "sensei-such says this, and sensei-whosis says this, and neither of them are incorrect!" which only adds to it.

[tango]

Yes leave starting jodan atleast untill you have a grasp of chudan and realised that you don't like it. But you don't have to wait till your 6th dan and have spent enough of your life contemplaiting why your doing something you don't like. There is a perfect example of a guy in our club doing that and its worked very well for him. I believe JSchmidt started jodan a while into his kendo life as well.

I guess that depends on how one wants to define what a "grasp of chudan" is...

This might be what you're actually implying, but I think what's important is that one have at least a decent understanding/grasp of proper maai and seme before trying to get into jodan. This is my gut feeling, but then again, with hidari jodan, it seems that seme and maai are just different (at least slightly) from chudan, so... maybe the jodan players here can comment on this.... learning jodan might imply learning seme and maai all over again anyway.

This might explain why some sensei might decide to allow someone "less experienced" to start with jodan. I think there is an 1.kyu or a 1.dan in Atlanta that is using jodan (and from what I saw at the last SEUSKF tournament, he seemed to be getting along with it fairly well)...
I know Arai-sensei down there fairly well and have a lot of respect for him, so, if he's cool with it, who am I to question that decision?

Continuing to ramble somewhat more off-topic, I think if sensei approaches the student and says, "You need to try jodan" then, no questions asked, there's no problem with that. I think that's a bit different than being a kyu-grade or a low-level dan grade and then "being bored with chudan" (or whatever), you go up and ask to start jodan.

Personally, I have no desire to use jodan, HOWEVER, at some point, I would like to learn it just so I have a better grasp of how it really works... I've never faced someone in jodan outside of somebody goofing off in jigeiko, but at some point, I figure I will.

[dwez]

It's actually part of the BKA shiai rules, that tsuki is not allowed in mixed gender matches, unless one of them is in jodan/nito.


Yep, that was clarified afterwards, but it is also a mixed ability match so for the life of me it seems laughable that just because of someones gender a higher grade couldn't be tsuki-ed. I think Newbie's post clearly illustrates that it is far more offensive to be told not to do that to a lady because of her gender than because it's rude to a higher grade.
But what do I know, I wouldn't tsuki anyway as I'd probably miss due to last second insanity.

I do have a habit of trying to hold my chudan very strongly though if I feel an opponent isn't getting it out of the way. This in itself offers a similar 'insult' as I have felt on occassion my opponent is offended - "how dare you imply my waza is not sufficient to remove your centre".

I spent an entire night running onto other peoples chudan last night only to learn that lesson, I certainly wasn't insulted but then I'm not a high grade. Surely it just depends on the opponent. As if I didn't have enough on my mind now I've got to worry about their feelings?

[tango]

btw.. Gibbo...


I find this quietly amusing whenever I hear about it. If you haven't got the balls to come out with it and say to your teacher straight up "I want to do jodan, please teach me" then what the hell makes these guys think they've got the balls to do jodan! Brilliant!

I think a lot of it has to do with circumstances and how someone goes about asking for it.
I mean, would you or anyone else take seriously a person who after 3 months into kendo watches a DVD of the AJKC, sees someone using jodan, and then comes to the next practice with a request to start learning it? I know I wouldn't.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Jodan is a more aggressive posture. It also is one that is built almost entirely on seme, as you don't have many of the tools you do when fighting from chudan. By assuming jodan, you are saying to sensei, "my basic kendo is strong enough that I don't need chudan to fight you", which is quite an arrogant thing to say. That's why just taking jodan against sensei is considered rude.

Having said that, most sensei don't have a problem with it, so long as you just ask politely if it's OK at the start. There's a stock phrase in Japanese that's used, I forget what it is at the moment. However, some sensei feel that if you think you're strong enough to take jodan against them, you're also strong enough to take their best kendo. So just be prepared for a shitstorm against these guys. There's another Japanese phrase for the necklace pattern of bruises you get from the constant tsuki when learning jodan, my memory is failing me today.

[ScottUK]

There's a stock phrase in Japanese that's used, I forget what it is at the moment.Jodan onegaishimasu?

[tango]

Scott -- no, it's a more specific phrase... something simple like, "Please excuse my bad manners"... I can't recall it either...

[hyuna]

I find the original question a little confusing. As was said, jodan is considered kind of "advanced." So is maki waza, I think.

I understand the idea of wanting to use your best techniques against sensei, but shouldn't your best techniques be basic ones? I should say that by "best" I am talking about your ability to execute the technique correctly, and not your ability to score in shiai.

Even if it is possible to be better at an advanced technique than a basic one, if that is your situation, shouldn't you use your practice time with sensei to improve your basics? But I am not even sure if that question makes sense -- how it possible to be better at an advanced technique than a basic one, when the advanced technique requires some aspect developed through basics?

I think there is something to the comment about learning jodan "in secret." I think it is disrespectful to waste sensei's time, so if you are just starting out with a technique, maybe it is not a good use of your time with sensei to practice it with him.

I think these are variants of the same thing. If you cannot reliably hit from chika ma, what is the point of trying maki-waza? If you cannot do maki-waza against a mudansha, what is the point of trying it against sensei?

[ScottUK]

Scott -- no, it's a more specific phrase... something simple like, "Please excuse my bad manners"... I can't recall it either...Jodan shitsureishimasu? :)

[hyuna]

Scott -- no, it's a more specific phrase... something simple like, "Please excuse my bad manners"... I can't recall it either...

shitsureishimasu ?

[tango]

scott and hyuna --- yeah, that's it. thanks.

[A Wadlow]

This might explain why some sensei might decide to allow someone "less experienced" to start with jodan. I think there is an 1.kyu or a 1.dan in Atlanta that is using jodan (and from what I saw at the last SEUSKF tournament, he seemed to be getting along with it fairly well)...

Continuing to ramble somewhat more off-topic, I think if sensei approaches the student and says, "You need to try jodan" then, no questions asked, there's no problem with that. I think that's a bit different than being a kyu-grade or a low-level dan grade and then "being bored with chudan" (or whatever), you go up and ask to start jodan.

I have to admit I started jodan after 1 year of practice, I took both my Ikkyu and Shodan in Jodan and passed. I will continue to take my nidan etc in Jodan. However this is due to a perminat injury which would otherwise mean I would have to stop all together.

Not having a grasp of chudan and taking up jodan I found there was a lot of people who told me not to including a hatchidan. However on explaining most (not all) agreed that this was a good decision including my senei and his. Learning it is rubbish, its hard, everyone wants to rip you apart and then give you incorrect and unfounded advice. A lot of people would take the "im offended by you" attitude. It made me wonder if any of these people actualy have the spirit of kendo or they are just following an old way of thinking that is gone just because they want to be seen as moraly superior. Since then I have got better and no one says anything. As a result I see that it is important for people who have the choice to do chudan to do it to a level of understanding where they can see the benifits to them of doing Jodan then finding someone who can teach it rather than teaching your self.

More people should do it but it should not be a opt out substitute for hard work as if you want to learn properly you will find that it is harder than you though. Anyone can lift their arms up but there is a lot more to it than that. If you do it don't go half arsed at it.



Personally, I have no desire to use jodan, HOWEVER, at some point, I would like to learn it just so I have a better grasp of how it really works... I've never faced someone in jodan outside of somebody goofing off in jigeiko, but at some point, I figure I will.

Everyone should do that! As its hard to understand something unless you give it a go. Again this is somthing we occasionaly practice.

[tango]

I have to admit I started jodan after 1 year of practice, I took both my Ikkyu and Shodan in Jodan and passed. I will continue to take my nidan etc in Jodan. However this is due to a perminat injury which would otherwise mean I would have to stop all together.

I really do think that what you mention here goes without saying. Not bashing you about this, but I think most folks in this thread are not contemplating a circumstance similar to what you describe. That said, I would agree that in a situation such as yours, who should care that you use jodan?


More people should do it but it should not be a opt out substitute for hard work as if you want to learn properly you will find that it is harder than you though. Anyone can lift their arms up but there is a lot more to it than that. If you do it don't go half arsed at it.

I have no disillusionment about jodan at all. I know it's tough, and that, coupled with the fact that I'm discovering a LOT of new/good things with my own chudan (and I'm having a lot of fun with it), make me keep putting off the transition. On top of all that, I got issues with my left wrist that make katate men extremely painful. I've also briefly played around with jodan in jigeiko and really, I don't have the shoulder strength to keep my arms up for more than a single match. Ugh.
But anyway, what guy in his right mind would transition from chudan to jodan when, for example, he's eligible for 3.dan or 4.dan or 5.dan or whatever in the next couple of months? That'd be just crazy.

[Kenzan]

Is jukendo when you get to use old rules including ashi barai and throw the kote at your aite? :eek:


Miyahara Sensei was just talking about this during last practice.
The "old rules" as it were, with the tripping, beating on people when they were down, flipping people over, and the Kote fling.

Pretty serious stuff.

[MikeW]

I think what Neil said goes along with my experiences. If you ask sensei, especially one you do not train with all the time, if it's ok to use jodan against them in ji-geiko or if you pull jodan out in shiai you'd better be good enough to take the sensei's best kendo. Which for most of us probably means getting whacked multiple times on every target. I have certainly seen this happen on occasion where someone thats a nidan or sandan (or below) pulls out jodan against a sensei of 5-7 dan and the sensei basically puts on a clinic of how to score multiple times in a few seconds.

[R Stroud]

I saw some of this last year. All tsuki waza with a big stick with nothing more than a rubber stopper on the end of it. Rather you than me.

Jukendo, It's all fun and games until somebody gets their jaw broken...

[R Stroud]

... There's another Japanese phrase for the necklace pattern of bruises you get from the constant tsuki when learning jodan, my memory is failing me today.

Tsuki no Waguma.
It is a play on a few words. Guma (Kuma) means bear. Japanese bears have a white moon (tsuki) shaped patch of white fur on their chest. The bruises on your chest from multiple mune tuski stabs, look a lot like the cute little Japanese bear but just not in white, more of a bluish red.

[Ignatz]

I think what Neil said goes along with my experiences. If you ask sensei, especially one you do not train with all the time, if it's ok to use jodan against them in ji-geiko or if you pull jodan out in shiai you'd better be good enough to take the sensei's best kendo. Which for most of us probably means getting whacked multiple times on every target. I have certainly seen this happen on occasion where someone thats a nidan or sandan (or below) pulls out jodan against a sensei of 5-7 dan and the sensei basically puts on a clinic of how to score multiple times in a few seconds.

Isn't that exactly why you should do it with the higher ranks?

I have recently begun nito training but I only do it with sensei and recently the higher ranked members of the club. It does me no good to do nito against a mudansha and it does them no good either.

I want to play against someone who can pick me apart so I can reflect upon how they did it and figure out how to play them. The mudansha is not getting anything because they will not have to play a nito player in their brackets (especially one who holds daito in the right hand like I do). They will have plenty of time to practice against that.

You don't learn by being successful, you learn by failing.

I'm not concerned about tsuki because the 5 to 8 dan people are not going to miss too much, i.e. they are going to get it or miss completely.

I would ask a high ranking visitor first before I do nito.

[JSchmidt]

Isn't that exactly why you should do it with the higher ranks?

I have recently begun nito training but I only do it with sensei and recently the higher ranked members of the club. It does me no good to do nito against a mudansha and it does them no good either.

I agree with this. There's minimal mutual benefit from doing jodan against mudansha, however there's plenty to be gained from practicing against juniors and peers and limiting yourself to using nito against seniors. This is a good opportunity to practice weaker (or new) techniques.


You don't learn by being successful, you learn by failing.

Well, you learn by both. Even when it works, you should consider *why* it worked and not just use it to polish the ego.

As for tsuki, you shouldn't worry about it from any grade. If you do, don't do jodan/nito!.

As for changing to jodan, in my 'home' dojo, I don't ask, but at the other dojo I go to regularly, I will usually start in chudan and then announce my intentions (shitsurei-shimasu, although with very familar opponents, just a small bow) and then go to jodan.

As for shiai, you should use what is mostly likely to ensure victory, either for yourself in case of an individual shiai or the team in a team-comp. This usually means staying with your strongest kamae throughout the match.

[R Stroud]

From my limited perspective, I tend to view the jodan issue as follows, most of it has been touched on already so forgive me if I am restating the obvious or perhaps previously mentioned.

If someone is in a match, then it is sort of an "anything goes" situation. Jodan is one strategy and method to beat the opponent. And I can see no reason not to do whatever it takes to make a good point and win, including the use of jodan. That is the point of competition.

But, if it is a practice session it is a much harded topic to address. Essentially keiko with a senior sensei is an opportunity to work on your kendo. But the sensei is there to "assist you", since every sensei will have a different idea about how to improve and what you should be working on, sometime doing Jodan in a keiko (non-shiai) situation is contrary to what the sensei thinks you need to be doing.

Jodan is not simply a rude technique but it signals to the senior/sensei that you have your own strategy/approach and by definition do not need to do things his way. So you illicit a response from them to go into shiai/match mode. It is the same thing that happens when students try to "fight" a sensei or have a point match, instead of working on hitting well, footwork, etc during non-shiai keiko. My advice to all ranks trying to improve is to NEVER go into a "who's winning" mode during keiko, stay on track working on skills needed to improve and you will improve.

For me, I tend to view Jodan as a bit cocky from certain people, normal for others, perhaps not what I want to see students doing at certain points in their development, but in general just a part of the kendo landscape. Since I spent a stretch of my kendo career doing Nitoh, before setting it aside to pursue a better chudan, I can easily see why people take up nitoh and jodan despite the added difficulty this non-standard kendo style attracks.

Hope my rambling makes some sense. I have enjoyed this thread.

[MikeW]

Ignatz, yes you should try your best and expect a sensei to help instruct you during ji-gieko and even shiai. But there is a difference between total domination and annihilation and being taught....lol. I'm not saying people shouldn't use nito or jodan.. I'm saying they should do it appropriately and also to be aware of the reactions it may bring under certain circumstances.

[hobbit]

Sexism. :D

We can hurt other guys but not the ladies... oh, no - they're too delicate. :rolleyes:

Ever played mixed hockey ? :eek:

[Neil Gendzwill]

Ever played mixed hockey ? :eek:
Haley Wickenheiser played pro men's hockey for Swedish team Salamat.

http://www.hockeyfans.ch/olympia2006/background/wickenheiser.jpg

[hobbit]

Exactly - women . . . delicate . . . I've got more bruises playing mixed hockey than kendo :grin:

[tango]

From my limited perspective, I tend to view the jodan issue as follows, most of it has been touched on already so forgive me if I am restating the obvious or perhaps previously mentioned.

If someone is in a match, then it is sort of an "anything goes" situation. Jodan is one strategy and method to beat the opponent. And I can see no reason not to do whatever it takes to make a good point and win, including the use of jodan. That is the point of competition.

But, if it is a practice session it is a much harded topic to address. Essentially keiko with a senior sensei is an opportunity to work on your kendo. But the sensei is there to "assist you", since every sensei will have a different idea about how to improve and what you should be working on, sometime doing Jodan in a keiko (non-shiai) situation is contrary to what the sensei thinks you need to be doing.

Jodan is not simply a rude technique but it signals to the senior/sensei that you have your own strategy/approach and by definition do not need to do things his way. So you illicit a response from them to go into shiai/match mode. It is the same thing that happens when students try to "fight" a sensei or have a point match, instead of working on hitting well, footwork, etc during non-shiai keiko. My advice to all ranks trying to improve is to NEVER go into a "who's winning" mode during keiko, stay on track working on skills needed to improve and you will improve.

For me, I tend to view Jodan as a bit cocky from certain people, normal for others, perhaps not what I want to see students doing at certain points in their development, but in general just a part of the kendo landscape. Since I spent a stretch of my kendo career doing Nitoh, before setting it aside to pursue a better chudan, I can easily see why people take up nitoh and jodan despite the added difficulty this non-standard kendo style attracks.

Hope my rambling makes some sense. I have enjoyed this thread.

great post.

[h2o]

Haley Wickenheiser played pro men's hockey for Swedish team Salamat.

http://www.hockeyfans.ch/olympia2006/background/wickenheiser.jpg
It was a finnish team, not swedish. Cool thing though :)

[enkorat]

I have recently begun nito training but I only do it with sensei and recently the higher ranked members of the club. It does me no good to do nito against a mudansha and it does them no good either.

I want to play against someone who can pick me apart so I can reflect upon how they did it and figure out how to play them. The mudansha is not getting anything because they will not have to play a nito player in their brackets (especially one who holds daito in the right hand like I do). They will have plenty of time to practice against that.




Mmm... I think I will have to sort of differ with you on that particular point. I feel greatful to have an opportunity to fight against opponents (by definition sempai and senseis) who fight against me in either nito and jodan. I don't quite recall when exactly one of my senseis started fighting against me in jodan, but it was probably around when I was around a nikkyu or just being an ikkyu.

At my very first shiai way back when I was an unranked mudansha, someone fighting in our ring went in and went up into jodan. The collective reaction at our court of the competators waiting was pretty much "omg! What the hell are we supposed to do against THAT??" At the time, I shared in that opinion. I also remember that one of the judges sitting at the court table, who I have gotten to know better over the years sort of leaned back, crossed his arms and went "hehehehehe".

Since that time I've also seen a mudansha go into a shiaijo with a nito. I can't really say whether or not he was really good or bad (I don't really remember), but what made me happier was that my clubmates fighting in that division, who train regularly against nito and jodan along with me didn't have the same "deer in headlights" reaction that I did when I was at that stage, but rather "huh, well lets see what he can do."

I guess my own thought is that I am not always going to have control over who or what I face in shiai. But, I personally like to be prepared so that I'm not surprised, because when I am surprised I usually fall victim to it at the point where I am in kendo and end up losing. So the more I see in jigeiko, and the more different kinds of opportunities I do see, the more I have floor time to figure it out and work with it. This includes jodan, nito, "Mr. Hi I'm in college but I play like a high school student" ,"Mr. Look at My Wavy-tip...look closer...closer...", or even the "Hi I'm a bulldozer!" guy...

I guess when it comes down to it, I'd much rather win against a "unconventional opponent" through practice and preparation and sort of shrug and do the whole grunt thing, than lose and complain, make excuses, and blame my loss on my opponent's "disrespectful" technique all during the car ride home...

[Ignatz]

Mmm... I think I will have to sort of differ with you on that particular point. . . .

You are allowed.:cheerful:

[R Stroud]

great post.

even with the typos, and spelling errors... ?

Thanks.

[michaelm]

Excellent thread.

To narrow my ramblings, I'll limit my opinion to the use of jodan in jigeiko when you are still a beginner. (When beginner status ends...well, that's another discussion.)

As already mentioned by Stroud-sensei, I think that jigeiko is mainly devoted to improving your kendo, not a time to just rack up the points. And because jodan is both advanced and aggressive, when a "beginner" assumes this kamae, it might be viewed as trying to take a shortcut or using a trick to getting more points--when that isn't the point at all.

Instead of working on improving your kendo, going to jodan changes the priority to working on winning. I can see how senior sensei would think this was rude.

Personally, while it wouldn't be my preference to use jodan, I welcome the learning experience of fighting against jodan or nito. I even had the chance fight against naginata at one godo-geiko a couple of years ago. I got some pretty sharp hits to the shins that day.

-Michael

[JByrd]

But, if it is a practice session it is a much harded topic to address. Essentially keiko with a senior sensei is an opportunity to work on your kendo. But the sensei is there to "assist you", since every sensei will have a different idea about how to improve and what you should be working on, sometime doing Jodan in a keiko (non-shiai) situation is contrary to what the sensei thinks you need to be doing.

Wow, that really clarified a lot for me, thanks!

What is the word... "hikitate?," a "helping hand up?" When Sensei offers me a hand to lift me up a little, I shouldn't do anything that might seem like I am refusing it. It makes the most perfect sense.

[D'Artagnan]

About the whole BKA tsuki thing...

The rule is there for safetey, and to be honest I 100% agree with it.

However, this is not becaue I consider ladies to be 'too delicate' to recieve tsuki. And frequently use the tecnique when practicing with members of the ladie's National Team.

Instead it is beacuse at least 70% of British Kendo players can't execute accurate and correct tsuki. Andy probably at least 60% play too rough (for men and women) in general.

Therefore the rule is not really there to protect the women from losing to a perfectly executed tsuki ippon, but to stop her being skewered by some overweight noob that has footwork like he's on rollerskates.

It's not sexism, but girls are 9 times out of 10 much smaller than us blokes, and they aren't as strong. As they say down south 'it's 'oarses fer courses, innit!'

[Bokushingu]

About 8 months ago one of the nidans, that has been quite helpful to me, in the middle of jigeiko took jodan on me. My confidence went from 100 to 0 and he picked me apart. i couldn't figure out the targets & because i hadn't train do i was lost. After class i asked him why & what should i have done. He told me he watched me jigeiko others and saw that i controlled center and maai well but my maai was based upon my aite shinai. So when he went to jodan i lost my maai reference & preceeded to take about 10 to 15 well placed men. I'm kind of glad he went to jodan on me then a few times after it helped me figure my maai out with a physical reference.

as for the maki waza thing, I didn't further inquire about it. I figure i'm a kyu learning the basics and I just need to accept what the yudansha and sensei's tell me.

[Kingofmyrrh]

It always seems to be the "traditionalists" (I use quotes because quite often they are just locked into their own idea of what tradition is rather than having a detailed knowledge of the history) that get upset about jodan etc. Yet they seem quite happy to ignore the fact that the first kata is aijodan - this has litle significance to me but to those who want to stick to "the way it was" this should be an indication that there is nothing outlandish or offensive about jodan. I've had the opportunity to practice with and watch many high grades and almost invariably those that are truly strong don't care what you do, and, providing you don't do anything dangerous, will just laugh at you when you screw up. Clearly this doesn't apply to all, but I think a lot of higher grades don't like a jodan opponent because they know that they are not very good at handling jodan (I am terrible as well BTW). These are the same kind of guys who, if they get hit by someone they perceive as less skilled than them, will proceed to discuss with you at length why your technique was no good or whatever. On the other hand, the really good guys will be like "you got me dude!" and then perhaps add an explanation as to how you could make it even better. I find this loss of humility as people ascend the ranks a little offputting, so if possible I avoid practice with them - plenty more fish in the sea! BTW I'm not talking about UK teachers here, who I generally find are pretty cool about this kind of thing, but some of the ossan here in Tokyo. Fortunately my regular practice spots are populated by the good guys, which is why I really love going to practice. I'm ranting...

[cesarekim]

SNIP
Therefore the rule is not really there to protect the women from losing to a perfectly executed tsuki ippon, but to stop her being skewered by some overweight noob that has footwork like he's on rollerskates.

SNIP


I really object to that definition. It really strikes too close to home. I'm working on morote tsuki, btw, but I am very careful to do it with people who will not freak and put themselves in danger. My dojo mate is on the ladies' squad. She doesn't object to the tsuki. She just responds in kind and sometimes she gets a real beauty in. It's always done in good fun and we are always very careful to think in terms of safety first.

[Andoru]

It always seems to be the "traditionalists" (I use quotes because quite often they are just locked into their own idea of what tradition is rather than having a detailed knowledge of the history) that get upset about jodan etc. Yet they seem quite happy to ignore the fact that the first kata is aijodan - this has litle significance to me but to those who want to stick to "the way it was" this should be an indication that there is nothing outlandish or offensive about jodan. I've had the opportunity to practice with and watch many high grades and almost invariably those that are truly strong don't care what you do, and, providing you don't do anything dangerous, will just laugh at you when you screw up. Clearly this doesn't apply to all, but I think a lot of higher grades don't like a jodan opponent because they know that they are not very good at handling jodan (I am terrible as well BTW). These are the same kind of guys who, if they get hit by someone they perceive as less skilled than them, will proceed to discuss with you at length why your technique was no good or whatever. On the other hand, the really good guys will be like "you got me dude!" and then perhaps add an explanation as to how you could make it even better. I find this loss of humility as people ascend the ranks a little offputting, so if possible I avoid practice with them - plenty more fish in the sea! BTW I'm not talking about UK teachers here, who I generally find are pretty cool about this kind of thing, but some of the ossan here in Tokyo. Fortunately my regular practice spots are populated by the good guys, which is why I really love going to practice. I'm ranting...

I'm glad my dojo-mates are easy going with me too, in the sense that they are not "traditionalists". Was practising jodan against a tall guy last night and he did migi-jodan on me. :D

[D'Artagnan]

I really object to that definition. It really strikes too close to home...

Don't forget we are talking about shiai here, not keiko.

My statemement refers to the 'macho' guys who carelessly lauch themselves at their opponent in an attempt to 'have a go' at what they think might be morote tsuki, despite the fact they may have never even tried it before in their lives!

I recognise that, as you said, you are working on tsuki and are taking care to do it correctly and safely, however, unfortunately there aren't so many people in the UK that share your/our concern for safety...

[JCM]

I don't know D'artagnan, while I see the point of your explanation I think that if this is the case tsuki should not be allowed on male Kendoka either.

Being a man doesn't prevent you from having a crushed windpipe any less if the tsuki is missed. As for size and strenght difference, is not that as big a factor as technique. A lady missing a tsuki can do just as much damage as a male kendoka of similar size and build.

I think this rule is somewhat sexist, is like saying women are equal but we as (macho) men have to protect to the poor little things in the shiaijo (bless them, doing Kendo and all...), I don't think this is the right way to go about it, preventing tsuki in competition for people below sandan might be a better way to do it.

I also think the focus must be on refereeing, a bloke using too much physical force against a woman or a smaller opponent should be given a warning, hansokku or a disqualification.

My point is, following the spirit of this rule, should we prevent tsuki on small blokes too then?

[cesarekim]

Tsuki them all and let God sort them out?

I once saw a 6'3" big guy take on a 4'10" lady. He was banging all over her men with the thick part of the shinai. I thought it was glorious when she decided she'd had enough and katate tsukied him. When he tried to do the same, she did a real sharp suriage men. She almost had to jump to hit him.

The question that comes to mind is whether I would have cheered if the sexes and sizes of the two players had been reversed in this scenario or if it had been a big man and a small man... I sort of lean towards JCM's idea that it MIGHT be more sensible to use ranking as a way to set the rules but what do I know about the situation in the UK? It just seems strange that there was a perception that this rule was actually needed...

I think I will just go on waddling along and hoping I don't stick anyone in the privates... ;)

[Fudo-Shin]

TI once saw a 6'3" big guy take on a 4'10" lady. He was banging all over her men with the thick part of the shinai. I thought it was glorious when she decided she'd had enough and katate tsukied him. When he tried to do the same, she did a real sharp suriage men. She almost had to jump to hit him. It's not the dog in the fight...It's the fight in the dog! :rambo:

[The great I AM]

It always seems to be the "traditionalists"...{snip!}Now there is a good point....

and:


That said, I would agree that in a situation such as yours, who should care that you use jodan?Tango, I'm the boys teacher while I'm still in London, and you won't believe some of the shit that gets back to me. Obviously through the grapevine, so I need to take it with a pinch of salt, but when I posted previously about people saying he should stick to chudan knowing about his "permanent injuries" I wasn't joking. One could get massively annoyed if I didn't have the patience of a saint.....

Scott, Neil and Tango, I *think* the phrase is goburei shimasu. Which appropriately enough means excuse my rudeness! Whaddya know! Strangely relevant.....

[A Wadlow]

but when I posted previously about people saying he should stick to chudan knowing about his "permanent injuries" I wasn't joking. One could get massively annoyed if I didn't have the patience of a saint.....

The best was when the hatchidan at the shinpan seminar had a go at me, then was told about my injury, he called me over infront of everyone, gave as close to an appology as he could and told me to do Jodan and gave me a pat on the back. It was one of those "do I hug him back and call him daddy?" situations.

[ben]

The phrase you should utter before adopting jodan against a senior or sensei is "goburei shimasu".

I got lambasted recently by a visiting rokudan (or maybe he was nanadan) for what he saw as waiting too much. I was consciously trying not to rush in a like a noob doing kakarigeiko, but hold chushin and create my own openings. He ended up running onto my kensen a couple of times which pissed him off a bit I think.

Afterwards I went up to thank him and a stream of admonistions in Japanese came flying my way, basically "who did I think I was?" and "you're not senior enough to be playing that kind of kendo with me, you should be giving it everything" blah, blah, blah. Now I'm far from the world's best godan (probably close to the worst actually) but you know what? I took his admonitions to mean I was on the right track. IOW I'd unsettled him and he had to take it out on me in words afterwards.

I suppose it comes down to the fact that there are some people I don't mind being told off by and not others. In short, this man's kendo did not inspire as much deference in me as he might have hoped.

Now there were some Keishicho nanadans at the same keiko whom I wouldn't have dared piss off...

b

[Paburo]

as king and ben have pointed out, i think it all boils down to the sensei's way of thinking...

one of my closest nanadan sensei 'heard' somewhere that i had been trying some nito ryu in the past months and he was the one who asked me to try and keiko with him in nito, whereas i would normally only fight him in chudan as a sign of 'respect' because thats what i have been 'asked to' by my local sensei. this same sensei complimented a shodan for a superb maki otoshi that caught him off guard and almost disarmed him. would all nanadan/hachidan act this same way? probably not. should they all act this way? i think yes. normally i am the one who is asked by sensei and higher ranked dan sempais to assume nito and jodan AND to use my best/strongest kendo against them, including disarming and otoshi wazas if those are one of my strenghts. i like this type of open minded sensei. and i'm glad most of mine are very much like this.

OTH, i have never assumed jodan saying goburei/shitsurei shimasu against a sensei though. i think it's still rude because you are apologising for it, but youre not really asking for permission. i always say "jodan ii desu ka?". if they agree then i assume jodan. otherwise i just stay in chudan. but that's just me... chudan is my 'standard/normal' kamae anyway...

cheers.

[Charlie]

The best was when the hatchidan at the shinpan seminar had a go at me...

...a stream of admonistions in Japanese came flying my way, basically "who did I think I was?"

And you guys are wondering where it comes from? Juniors observe this behavior and then try to figure it out, what's the right thing to do and wrong thing to do. If they see a HACHIDAN chewing someone out for jodan, they will adjust their rei-book accordingly. "Oh, okay, new rule, never take jodan against a higher up, it's rude." Et cetera. This answers the question, "Why do you think it is disrespectful to..." And, again, different sensei have different attitudes to what's permissible in jigeiko.

[Charlie]

BTW, I am also in favor of folks at a relatively lower level fighting jodan and nito. I say start learning. I also think the jodan and nito folks need to work on THEIR waza, and should be given the opportunity to do so as often as possible. Mileage may vary and all that.

[R Stroud]

Afterwards I went up to thank him and a stream of admonistions in Japanese came flying my way, basically "who did I think I was?" and "you're not senior enough to be playing that kind of kendo with me, you should be giving it everything" blah, blah, blah. Now I'm far from the world's best godan (probably close to the worst actually) but you know what? I took his admonitions to mean I was on the right track. IOW I'd unsettled him and he had to take it out on me in words afterwards.

Certainly one of the things about kendo that has a high suck factor.

I have a similar story about trying to do kirikaeshi with a 6 dan in Japan while a godan. My left shoulder was trashed from daily keiko, and I absolutely could not use it. So I soldiered on trying to do keiko with just my right, (and a 3.9 shinai I might add), but this just pissed him off when I started kerikaeshi. He told me to do it right, big swings, with both hands, etc. When I told him I couldn't due to the shoulder injury he basically (or rather rudely), got upset, and then walked away. The shock was that someone in a senior position would handle it this way... oh well. It made for a story to tell, and I found other sensei who were happy to see me continue and focused on practice with them.

In kendo, there is a lot to be said about going with the flow, while secretly paddling in the direction you are headed.

[The great I AM]

The best was when the hatchidan at the shinpan seminar had a go at me, then was told about my injury, he called me over infront of everyone, gave as close to an appology as he could and told me to do Jodan and gave me a pat on the back. It was one of those "do I hug him back and call him daddy?" situations.


The best was when the hatchidan at the shinpan seminar had a go at me...

...a stream of admonistions in Japanese came flying my way, basically "who did I think I was?"

And you guys are wondering where it comes from? Juniors observe this behavior and then try to figure it out, what's the right thing to do and wrong thing to do. If they see a HACHIDAN chewing someone out for jodan, they will adjust their rei-book accordingly. "Oh, okay, new rule, never take jodan against a higher up, it's rude." Et cetera. This answers the question, "Why do you think it is disrespectful to..." And, again, different sensei have different attitudes to what's permissible in jigeiko.

Whilst I can't speak about Ben's experience, I watched young Wadlow's with Murakami sensei, because I was standing there waiting for my go. He wasn't so much told "Don't do jodan" as "sort your chudan out first!".....so a little different I think. Best to keep that clear as I think it does actually provide the example in a different light, but at the end of the day, you're still right!

Now that Murakami Sensei, he's an ace bloke....

[Charlie]

Amen to that. But you get what I'm saying, about trying to learn rei, anticipate proper behavior, and pass that on to others.

Hey, did you know when you get to the bar after keiko no one is supposed to drink before sensei? You guys do there over in Ye Olde England? I have seen Japanese here in the States hide a drink until sensei, shows up, then bring it out.

[sainueng]

I think mudansha should be exposed to jodan and nito, but not necessarily encouraged to take them up (barring special circumstances). I would take it as deficiency in my instruction if they freeze in a shiai when they see it.

However, I think there is a point to "magically" be able to do jodan or nito, as Enkorat described it. The reason I say this is that you have to relearn the basics, and how to apply the basics from that kamae. I don't see anything wrong with working on the basics of the new kamae for a while "in secret" and bringing it out only after you have an understanding of the basics that's not an embarrassment.

Finally, when a person is at the stage of trying nito or jodan, he typically will also have teaching obligations in the dojo. That person should make sure he doesn't compromise those obligations while persuing the new kamae.

[The great I AM]

Amen to that. But you get what I'm saying, about trying to learn rei, anticipate proper behavior, and pass that on to others.Oh don't get me wrong, I do get what you're on about, and totally agree. Its awful practising with people or seeing practise that seems to involve bugger all common sense, and watching reigi go out of the window (I've seen stomping in the shiaijo, people chucking their shinai away, being overly violent and physical with nito and jodan fighters - this one resulted in a broken wrist...., heard of people punching their opponent in the mengane when frustrated with themselves, the lot and all right here in London. It all disgusts me.)


Hey, did you know when you get to the bar after keiko no one is supposed to drink before sensei? You guys do there over in Ye Olde England? I have seen Japanese here in the States hide a drink until sensei, shows up, then bring it out.With all good intention, f#ck that for a game of soldiers. By the time I usually get to the pub, some of my piss-head students are on their second. I'd get lynched trying to enforce that one.....

[dwez]

some of my piss-head students are on their second.

"You must spread some respect around before giving it to The great I AM again."

;)

[Charlie]

(I've seen stomping in the shiaijo, people chucking their shinai away, being overly violent and physical with nito and jodan fighters - this one resulted in a broken wrist...., heard of people punching their opponent in the mengane when frustrated with themselves, the lot and all right here in London. It all disgusts me.)

Savages. Hooligans. I'm glad we threw off your yoke back when we were your colonists and you were the mother country. :wink:

And LMAO @ a Brit waiting for permission to have a drink!

[ScottUK]

Savages. Hooligans.Bowler-hat-wearing mentalists and proud of it... ;)

[Neil Gendzwill]

I've seen stomping in the shiaijo, people chucking their shinai away, being overly violent and physical with nito and jodan fighters - this one resulted in a broken wrist...., heard of people punching their opponent in the mengane when frustrated with themselves, the lot and all right here in London. It all disgusts me.Couldn't that all be resolved by simply applying the rules? I know that chucking your shinai or punching someone would get you a fast exit ticket from the tournament if I'm holding the flags.

[The great I AM]

Couldn't that all be resolved by simply applying the rules? I know that chucking your shinai or punching someone would get you a fast exit ticket from the tournament if I'm holding the flags.Most of it is in everyday keiko, so sadly "The Rules" don't really apply. Short of a quiet word, there isn't really a great deal that one can do about that sort of thing, especially when its not at UCL.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Most of it is in everyday keiko, so sadly "The Rules" don't really apply. Short of a quiet word, there isn't really a great deal that one can do about that sort of thing, especially when its not at UCL.Especially implies there's not a lot you can do about it even on your home turf. Are you restricted by some sort of university rules? If it's my dojo, I've sure got some control.

[Ignatz]

Gibbo,

If I were at your doo and someone started getting really rough nowadays I would just raise my hand and go into sonkyo and go to another line.

If there was real violence or shinai throwing, if the sensei didn't stop it, I would probably just bow out, get my kit together and wander off into the sunset. I have no desire to play with barbarians.

There is a difference however in what I picture here and what I have experienced in several dojos where I had the living snot beaten out of me. Not violent, not ugly but a sheer joy and good training. (unfortunately my best years for this have probably passed)

For example, I have knocked people down when their posture was totally wrong and sensei has come up to me and said "Be carful about the mirrors". When I was younger in a similar situation sensei might say "Don't be so rough".

A different quality to it.

[The great I AM]

Maybe some mis understanding. I certainly would never tolerate this kind of stuff in UCL, and I've only ever had to do something about it once and now we don't have any nonsense and things are hunky doory. I'm talking about seeing it outside of UCL. It never happens to me (being a noisy arrogant 6foot 3 fool, and most people know I'll just give it right back) but I've seen it and heard it plenty. Like I said, short of a quiet word to the perp if I know them, or to the dojo leader if I don't, there isn't a great deal I can really do to change that sort of thing.

Don't get me wrong, like I said, I don't for a second tolerate stuff like that, and I've come down hard on people practising or members of UCL for less, but outside my house is a different story. There are plenty of people in the UK who don't take kindly to what they see as outsiders trying to tell them how to run things.

[ScottUK]

Hehe I am 6'5" but had to suffer this a couple of weeks ago! I think the guy knew my level and decided to beat on me a little... It is pretty easy to nip in the bud on an individual basis, though (肘の殴打!). I am looking forward to fencing him again 'cos I think he'll be more placid next time... ;)

[Kingofmyrrh]

Hehe I am 6'5" but had to suffer this a couple of weeks ago! I think the guy knew my level and decided to beat on me a little... It is pretty easy to nip in the bud on an individual basis, though (肘の殴打!). I am looking forward to fencing him again 'cos I think he'll be more placid next time... ;)

I hate this as well... people think that because you're a big guy it's alright to get rough with you because you'll be able to "take it" (this has never happened to me as I'm a slender 5'10", but you see it often enough). I guess your post doesn't really imply that this is what happened to you, but it did remind me of some less than pleasant things I have seen.

[Ignatz]

Maybe some mis understanding. I certainly would never tolerate this kind of stuff in UCL, . . .

My bad in how I wrote my post. I never thought that your club would be like that, I thought you were talking about going to someone else's dojo where they acted like animals (on the court, after practice I expect you to be an animal).

[Kingofmyrrh]

(on the court, after practice I expect you to be an animal).

Animals flee in terror at the sight...

[ScottUK]

I guess your post doesn't really imply that this is what happened to youHehe I tolerated it for a minute or two then put a stop to it!

The natural opposite to good, spirited, controlled kendo is 'bad' or 'disrespectful' kendo - it will always be there, but hopefully people will be picked up on it when it happens...

[The great I AM]

(on the court, after practice I expect you to be an animal).Only where alcohol and attractive phillies are concerned.

[JByrd]

I hate this as well... people think that because you're a big guy it's alright to get rough with you because you'll be able to "take it" .

I've seen that as well, and I can't fathom where that kind of "thinking" comes from. The last person you want to do sumo-kendo with is someone who outweighs you by 40 kilos! I guess some people get intimidated by size, and lose their heads.

[Seiza_Seizure]

\
Having said that, most sensei don't have a problem with it, so long as you just ask politely if it's OK at the start.
There's another Japanese phrase for the necklace pattern of bruises you get from the constant tsuki when learning jodan, my memory is failing me today.

I think it's called "Hicky Tsuki", coz you are left with bruises all over your neck which resemble love bites- the lingo we use for love bite being "Hicky"

Sorry, that was lame....very lame....

[Another_kenshi]

I was told that if someone uses jodan, or fights nito, and there is no physical reason why they can't do chudan, that its like they're telling you that their kendo is so much better than yours, they don't have to fight you in chudan. I have actually been told I should be offended if someone uses jodan against me.

Dunno...
I use Jodan sometimes. When I do it, it is often with someone around the same level as me. often, with a friend, I use jodan for a time and then he uses jodan. that way we train both chudan and jodan. but that is previously arranged.

When with someone else, sensei, during shiai etc if I need to use jodan I don't do it because "I'm telling them that my kendo is so much better than theirs, and I don't have to fight'em in chudan."
On the contrary, I use it as a "last resort"
So it's like
"Your kendo is much more stronger than mine and I can't hit you by using my usual chudan. So I'll change my strategy."

sounds more like a compliment

[Koki]

Wow... i'm late to this thread... It was very interesting reading all your posts. Anyway here are a few things i want to add:

1) Tsuki is kihon waza, and we should practice it as men, kote, or dou.

2) I think most sensei do not have a problem with people taking up jodan. But before you decide to do jodan in jigeiko, think of the commitment you have to put in first. Doing jodan means doing jodan all the time... during suburi, kihon practice, uchikomi, jigeiko... etc. People only have a problem with those who play jodan just for show or to beat up the inexperiences. Also, one should practice jodan and chudan at the same time. They compliment each other.

3) Some sensei still have a pretty big ego. I just try to avoid them.