"Sport" Kendo and "Cutting" Kendo

[elfboy]

He has differentiated between Kumdo as a sport and a cutting Kumdo style. Basically what he said was that people had evolved Kumdo too much into a sport, and that strikes became more like touches rather than have actual power in them.


Yes, it's a sport, but I feel that it still has kept its deep roots in kenjutsu, and because of this, "sport" kendo and "cutting" kendo are just the same thing to me. You have to apply a dead-serious mentality to shiai and matches, and the serious atmosphere generated by a bout (I believe) requires you to treat the shinai like a real katana. Besides, the target spots in Kendo, if hit with a real shinken, would have caused instant death. To me, these two things show that though Kendo is a sport, it still has retained its origins in live combat. If strikes are becomming more like touches than actual cuts, then I guess people are interpreting the art in a different way, but to me, it has, and always will be, swords first, and I'm sure that a lot of people treat it this way. Just strikes me as odd that actual cuts could be replaced by "touches." It takes a lot modification to deviate from the standard teachings.

My two cents, though I'm sure (and glad) that other Kenshi have different views on the game. To be honest, its this diversity of ideas that we apply to one art that makes Kendo interesting, and its kendoka even more so.

[sminki]

Hmm

It's interesting that your sensei actually makes a distinction between "sports" kumdo and "cutting" kendo. What I have to clarify again and again in this forum is that kumdo=kendo. It is certainly unfair to classify Koreans and those who have Korean teachers as "sports" kumdo people and the rest of the kendo population as "cutting" kendo. I believe your sensei is in the wrong here as there are many Koreans who train kumdo (which, once again, is the same as kendo), who agree with the kendo philosophy of "cutting" as opposed to "touching and scoring". As far as I know (and I've dealt with numerous kumdo/kendo dojos in Korea and the U.S.), it is a pretty universal belief that the "cutting" kendo/kumdo is always considered to be proper kendo/kumdo. I have never had a teacher (whether KOrean or Japanese) tell me to strike smaller.

Whether kendo is a sport or true sword art is another question altogether...

[swrdply400mrela]

Hmm

It's interesting that your sensei actually makes a distinction between "sports" kumdo and "cutting" kendo.


Whether kendo is a sport or true sword art is another question altogether...

I think I should clarify this: I'm not differentiating between Kumdo and Kendo. I'm differentiating on how strikes are made. From the view of my sensei, he truly believes that our strikes should be big and powerful. I think this is because he treats Kendo/Kumdo as real - as if shinais were real. If our strike is too weak, he may compare it to a real sword, saying if we were to make a strike like that with a katana, the opponent would not be seriously hurt.

On another note, I have read somewhere that Kendo is a simplified collaboration of a few Kenjutsu schools. Can anyone verify? What is the difference between Kenjutsu and Kendo?

I asked my sensei once, but he didn't know what Kenjutsu was (maybe because he is Korean?). I told him that I think they just practice with bokken instead of with shinai. All he had to say about it was that some schools may do that because they do not believe a shinai could be a useful training method for a real sword, or were to proud to recognize it as real.


Thoughts?

Mike

[Neil Gendzwill]

What is the difference between Kenjutsu and Kendo?
Kendo is a standardised curriculum, pretty much the same everywhere you go. The kata are techniques taken from several old schools of swordsmanship. The targets and techniques used with both shinai and bokken could be regarded as a reduced set compared to what was taught years ago, depending on which school you are talking about. Some had even smaller sets of techniques, some much larger.

Kenjutsu is a rather broad term which could mean the swordsmanship taught by any of hundreds of koryu, old schools of martial arts. Each of them has their own techniques, overriding philosophy and practice methods. Most of them use bokken and shinken as practice tools, some of them use shinai but not necessarily the same sort of shinai as kendoka use. There's no sports mindset in any of the koryu.

[swrdply400mrela]

Kendo is a standardised curriculum, pretty much the same everywhere you go. The kata are techniques taken from several old schools of swordsmanship. The targets and techniques used with both shinai and bokken could be regarded as a reduced set compared to what was taught years ago, depending on which school you are talking about. Some had even smaller sets of techniques, some much larger.

Kenjutsu is a rather broad term which could mean the swordsmanship taught by any of hundreds of koryu, old schools of martial arts. Each of them has their own techniques, overriding philosophy and practice methods. Most of them use bokken and shinken as practice tools, some of them use shinai but not necessarily the same sort of shinai as kendoka use. There's no sports mindset in any of the koryu.

So does Kenjutsu have a more militaristic mindset that Kendo?

Could you explain the sports mindset in more detail?

Thanks

Mike

[Neil Gendzwill]

So does Kenjutsu have a more militaristic mindset that Kendo?
Yes, they are by and large teaching techniques that were proven to work on the battlefield or in duels, and are now preserved in the transmission of the ryu. See www.koryu.com for a bunch more info.


Could you explain the sports mindset in more detail?

Well we have competition, so of course many people approach kendo from a sports point of view. Most people who continue with kendo for a long time get away from that as it's just not that interesting for a lifetime's practice, but it's definitely there especially for younger players.

[mingshi]

Why do some people always relate Sport Kendo to the Koreans???
I think the term refers to High School/Gaijin Kendo???

IMHO the mentality/intention of creating cutting opportunity is always there. Wherther you can cut through or not, is more in the technicality (either the person's skill or the sword) than anything else. That's why they have "Concept of Kendo" as the basis of our study.

[swrdply400mrela]

Mingshi, are you Chinese?

I swear I have a cousin with the same name.

[jmarsten]

Here are a couple of thoughts:
Kenjutsu is a technical art the purpose of which is to kill people with a sword
Kendo by definition is a philosophical art designed to give life. Hence the term the sword that takes life and the sword that gives life. All of the jutsu's had a transition during the Meiji period to do forms, e.g. jujutsu-judo, kenjutsu-kendo...
There have been taikai since the later Meiji period and people have written about how kendo was being ruined by the sport aspect. Noma Sensei wrote about this in the 1920's. He was an advocate of taikai and said every match you did should have the ultimate goal of cutting and winning. See the Edinburgh Kendo Club site for the full document.

So if it is so bad why does the AJKF sponsor taikai in Japan? They even have Hachidan tournaments as at the 50th AJKF Taikai. Taikai serve as a very good teaching tool and give us all a chance to measure ourselves amongst our peers. Those who only practice in their own dojo sometimes become legends in their own minds. So sport kendo in the derogatary sense is when folks do the bobbing and weaving and crap to avoid being scored on and don't treat the shinai as a sword. Sport kendo is when people whine about how the judges ripped them off rather than taking responsibility for their poor skill.(shimpan do screw up but most of the whiners don't judge) Still tournaments in and of themselves are a very good thing. How each individual applies their kendo is a different matter.
So regarding cutting, the Japanese sword basically cuts on its own, if you don't think so I have a couple I will brush across your forehead and we'll see if you bleed. It doesn't take a lot of power, I accidently slipped while standing next to the bed with a stroke of 3 inches and cut through 5 blankets. My wife was not very happy with me that afternoon.
So basically the difference between sport and cutting is more about attitude.
Lastly, Mingshi please don't use the term gaijin it's really not a very nice way to refer to other kenshi.

[swrdply400mrela]

jmarsten: Out of curiosity, then how close is Kendo to the "real thing". I know there has been massive debate, but I would like to hear your opinion. Thanks for the insight.

Mike

[LNGUYEN]

Marsten Sensei,

Reading your post is very enlightement for me. thank You. However, if you please emphasize more about Kendo give life and Kenjutsu kill life. Generally, you explaination about tournament clear me up even for the most question I always had during Judo practice. Thank You.

[mingshi]

First of all...

Mingshi please don't use the term gaijin it's really not a very nice way to refer to other kenshi.
Here I am mainly refering to those who prefer to relate Sports Kendo=Kumdo. That's not really a nice way to say about our Korean friends either.


Here are a couple of thoughts:
Kenjutsu is a technical art the purpose of which is to kill people with a sword...

Hmmm I thought katsujin-ken (life-giving sword) is a concept promoted by Yagyu Shinkage Ryu???

p.s. Yes I am Chinesem and this is the kanji of my name: 温銘詩

[jmarsten]

As I stated before, the basic concept of kenjutsu was to train to kill people thus the sword that takes life.
The basic concept in kendo "the sword that gives life" is that through the practice and study you gain life. That is the physical training that keeps you healthy(see the 80+ year old sensei), the intra-personal relationships "everyone who holds a shinai is my friend" and a life philosophy about how you conduct yourself as a person. This is the reigi and seishin that is developed through training. At some point kendo truly becomes "the way is in training" if you stick with it. This spills over in how you approach school, your profession and your family. Even the jerks and flakes I have met in kendo are way above the average jerk and flake on the street. Kendo is one of the few martial arts were people practice it for a life time.
There was another thread going about bowing to the sensei which really goes back to kendo begins and ends with etiquette. Kenshi should be mindful of "giri" towards the sensei who is giving you the gift of knowledge & life. In most cases the sensei is the first to arrive and the last to leave the practice. They are mostly "unpaid" for their services, which by the way the term samurai comes from a verb meaning to serve. Try practicing with yourself or be a member of a club where the sensei barely shows up and the students run it. Some folks know exactly what I am talking about. So even though this seems a little like a bunny trail, the reigi and seishin are linked to the whole package of the sword that gives life. Hope this helps.

[jmarsten]

jmarsten: Out of curiosity, then how close is Kendo to the "real thing". I know there has
been massive debate, but I would like to hear your opinion. Thanks for the insight.

Mike
OK, golly gee wheez. My opinion.
1. I've never been involved in the "real thing" and not looking to be either.
2. I have practiced with sensei who I can not touch and know for certain that if they were using a katana I would be dead.
3. I sometimes have a game at practice called "one cut" . The first one to cut the opponent wins. Beginners do well at this if they are fearless because they have no idea what they are going to do and are "empty minded" making them deadly.
4. There hasn't been any real sword fights since the Meiji restoration so "real experts" are kinda hard to come by.
So I kinda take the "real thing" with a grain of salt. I gave up thinking about kendo that way many years ago when I realized thats not why I was training.

[Old Warrior]

"I sometimes have a game at practice called "one cut" . The first one to cut the opponent wins. Beginners do well at this if they are fearless because they have no idea what they are going to do and are "empty minded" making them deadly"

This is a very interesting point. Real combat is not like training indoors, on a wooden floor, after you've had a good night's rest and a decent meal. The reality of a battlefield has very little relationship to what goes on in a training hall. The "one cut" drill teaches that "anything can happen". I can also state with certainty that although I am fairly skilled with an epee, there is a liklihood that a beginner will get at least one "double touch" in a 5 point contest. If the weapons were real we would both be dead and all my years of training for naught. Does that mean that my years of taking lessons from a great maestro were wasted - I think not.

When you study sword arts you do so because of the personal value of the training. It's not preparation for combat and any comparison is silly. The US Army turns a recruit into a front line soldier in 8 weeks. In 8 weeks a kenshi can barely remember all the basic cuts let alone coordinate them with the footwork. But, if modern armies fought with swords, the government would turn you out to defend your country in 8 weeks. Would a skilled swordsman have a greater chance of survival in the mass confusion of battle? Maybe - is as far as I would go on that question.

[slidercrank]

Why do some people always relate Sport Kendo to the Koreans???


No one did that, at least not in this thread.

First, swrdply400mrela said that his sensei "has differentiated between Kumdo as a sport and a cutting Kumdo style."

Then, sminki might have misread and replied with: "It's interesting that your sensei actually makes a distinction between "sports" kumdo and "cutting" kendo."

If we read the whole thread carefully, we will see that no one has actually stated "sport kumdo" and "cutting kendo" in one sentence.

[doubissu]

Hmm

It's interesting that your sensei actually makes a distinction between "sports" kumdo and "cutting" kendo. What I have to clarify again and again in this forum is that kumdo=kendo. It is certainly unfair to classify Koreans and those who have Korean teachers as "sports" kumdo people and the rest of the kendo population as "cutting" kendo. I believe your sensei is in the wrong here as there are many Koreans who train kumdo (which, once again, is the same as kendo), who agree with the kendo philosophy of "cutting" as opposed to "touching and scoring".
Whether kendo is a sport or true sword art is another question altogether...

We participated a couple of months ago in a Kumdo tournament (here in So Cal) that attracted dojos from all over US. We were very surprised to see a major difference in the cuts/zanshin (hence in the way points were given) from the way they're usually done in Kendo. I know there's been a lot of debate on this Forum about the Kendo/Kumdo (non) differences and was eager to see it with my own eyes. For the most part, the matches were exactly like Kendo, with one difference: all flags went up the moment the shinai touched or hit the target areas. Zanshin was of secondary concern. Because of that, the attacks were fairly static. And that made the matches a whole lot more exciting (and short) to watch but stressful to fight in. I didn't like it much...

I've practiced Kendo in Korea and Kumdo dojos here in US and never noticed this before, so not sure what to make of it. It was shiai afterall so maybe judging had something to do with this.

So from now on when someone tells me there's no difference between Kendo and Kumdo I'll be a little sceptical.

Eddy

[sminki]

I think I should clarify this: I'm not differentiating between Kumdo and Kendo. I'm differentiating on how strikes are made. From the view of my sensei, he truly believes that our strikes should be big and powerful. I think this is because he treats Kendo/Kumdo as real - as if shinais were real. If our strike is too weak, he may compare it to a real sword, saying if we were to make a strike like that with a katana, the opponent would not be seriously hurt.
...
Mike

Who's your sensei and where do you train? I like his teaching.

[MACSTA]

swrdply,
just a quick observation from a not very experienced kendoka, but smaller cuts prob does not make it unrealistic to historical samurai combats. this is how i see it...
smaller cuts are a lot faster which could be advantageous, if you are using a real katana and apply tenouche (don't know how to spell) to your cuts. sure you might not cut their whole hand off if going for kote or totally split their head in half if going for men etc, but i think you would cause considerable damage, enough for you to win the battle.
:silly:

[nodachi]

I wouldn't classify a small cut as a weak cut or a more sport technique of a cut.

I've been told that as a beginner it is important to cut big to get good form and all, but down the road, small cuts are for when you are closer to your opponent and big cuts are for when you are farther out and have the time and distance to do a nice big cut. Just because a cut is small, doesn't mean it is weak, if it is done right and well.

Granted I am just spitting back info I have been told. I am not implying in anyway that I have a strong, small cut. Gimme 40 years and I'll respond to this again...

[Neil Gendzwill]

I define small and large cuts not by how much the shinai moves but rather the mechanics of the cut. A large cut is one which involves the whole arm. A small cut is mostly wrists. You can still get a lot of motion in the tip with just your wrists, and a correspondingly strong cut. Also, if you make a large cut but the tip doesn't move much it will be quite weak - beginners who attempt a small men usually still do it with their whole arm, and as a result there is no "snap" to it.

Someone earlier mentioned sashimen - this technique is usually discouraged in our dojo. By sashimen I refer to the style of cut where the tip moves very little. If you are very experienced you can get a strong hit with this technique but most people are better off with a bigger tip motion.

[slidercrank]

When advanced kenshis strike with a small tip motion (as described by Gendzwill sensei), they achieve a strong strike anyhow because their timing is so good that they can put the weight of their bodies behind the strike at the correct moment. The force comes more from the body and very little comes from the shinai swing.

Less advanced kenshis' timing is not so exact, so the force of their cuts come more from the swinging motion of their shinai tips. Without swinging the shinai, such a strike becomes very weak and often ippon will not be awarded despite correct maai and datotsu.

I am in the latter category. I was very puzzled by why my sashimen was so much weaker than someone else's, despite the similar physical build and equal rank, until I viewed the tape in slow motion. He was moving his body in perfect sync with his shinai, whereas my body was falling behind the shinai at the moment of impact.

[KamuSan]

Good insight!