Nito (I dont get it)

[xvikingx]

Well there has certainly been an increase of talk about nito on the forum lately. After much reading (forgive me if I am mistaken) it seems that you basically cannot score with the shoto. So my question to people who have experience with both nito and jodan is, what advantages does nito have? Wouldn't you be better off just using jodan or chudan? Inquiring minds want to know.

[JSchmidt]

Well there has certainly been an increase of talk about nito on the forum lately. After much reading (forgive me if I am mistaken) it seems that you basically cannot score with the shoto. So my question to people who have experience with both nito and jodan is, what advantages does nito have? Wouldn't you be better off just using jodan or chudan? Inquiring minds want to know.

You use the shoto to defend, deflect, seme, etc...used properly that can be a big advantage.
As for being 'better off', it comes down to personal preference. I feel more 'at home' in jodan than chudan and that jodan is 'my kendo' (Chudan is still a part of it, but jodan is the main part).
I think all the talk about it comes from curiosity. Nito is even more rare than jodan, so there people tend to be fascinated by the subject. (Similar to beginners and tsuki).

Jakob

[xvikingx]

These reason I threw jodan in there is... in jodan (correct if I'm wrong) you trade defence for the ability to strike faster. I assume that is the same reason the daito is held up in the air with nito. My thought was if you cannot score with the shoto why not trade it in for a full size shinai. It seemed to me that the shoto being held out there is just an open kote.
I have very little knowledge of either kamae, so this question is out of pure curiosity. I don't want this to be misunderstood as a thread about which is better...
Jakob, thanks for the reply. Very helpful.

[Paburo]

maybe because blocking is so much faster with a short shinai?

[xvikingx]

maybe because blocking is so much faster with a short shinai?

I don't know, thats why I am asking.

[alexpollijr]

"you trade defence for the ability to strike faster. I assume that is the same reason the daito is held up in the air with nito"

Nope, that's not it I believe. Nito is slower than chudan. You're holding a shinai which is only 160g lighter at best with only one hand. Additionally, nito and jodan strikes have a long way to go before hitting, while 'sashi' strikes from chudan travel a very short distance ( debana kote, for instance ). So chudan is faster, usually.
Jodan has a longer reach ( though I don't know much about jodan to tell). And to me , the shoto's main use is to build pressure, so that an opening will arise for the daito to be unleashed ( remember, she's up there protecting the men).

[Old Warrior]

By no means do I intend to suggest that I speak as an expert or even someone moderately knowledgeable. But, I can answer "Why nito" as the only nito student in our dojang and relate my perceptions after about 7 months of doing only nito.

First, there are very few nito practitioners and therefore many people don't have a clue as to how to unravel the kamae. This means you have an advantage over these individuals. Second, the raised daito is intimidating especially in the hands of someone over 6' and 230 pounds. So, you also have an advantage over the timid. The result is that starting nito was an immediate advantage in bouting that has diminished over time as the Master has taught everyone the weaknesses of the kamae and how to go about beating me. He's given me some real poundings so all could see how to do it.

It is different and therefore you have to improvise some to go along with the class routine. Classmates have to learn how to receive kirakaeshi and what to expect when you receive. You cannot do all the combinations and therefore you have tell every partner what you are going to do when everyone is doing something else.

My take is that if you like very difficult puzzles, don't get frustrated easily and are willing to endure significant pain building some new muscles - nito is a great challenge. Being different draws attention and people ask a lot of questions. That means I get to engage new people in conversation; which adds to my overall enjoyment.

[xvikingx]

"[alexpollijr]Additionally, nito and jodan strikes have a long way to go before hitting, while 'sashi' strikes from chudan travel a very short distance ( debana kote, for instance ). So chudan is faster, usually."

True, I often forget that it is not necessary to raise the shinai all the way from chudan to make a cut. After reading a book about kata I don't think about the different kamaes in that way anymore. This is good stuff. I was waiting for a reply from you two (alex and OW). I hope Moocow will also shed some light on this subject. Thanks guys.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The biggest advantage I see to nito from the point of view of occasional victim is the ability to seperate offense and defence. The classic technique is to invite some attack and deflect it with the shoto, then counter with the daito. This can happen much faster than say the itto suriage-waza as the daito can already be on its way while the shoto is moving to defend. Also I've found that if you let yourself get sucked in close the nito guy will take your shinai out of play with his shoto by pressing down and then smack you upside the head with the daito.

My sensei says the main disadvantage is that the nito player must seperate his mind/intent into two directions and thus the advantage is ultimately with the itto player who can focus all his spirit into one sword. That's a little esoteric for me, so I'll just say that to make it work you've got to be strong, extremely coordinated and confident in your seme. Plus it doesn't hurt to be tall. Obviously there is a limited subset of players who meet these criteria.

The two big advantages to jodan from my POV as an occasional player are seme and the quality of the attack. Jodan is a very intimidating posture and inexperienced people will flinch and duck as you threaten. Of course more experienced people aren't so intimidated but they are still wary because of the second advantage - the quality of the attack. Chudan players can't afford to swing really big because it's too slow - but a strong jodan cut comes down awfully quick and will blast through a weak defence, and if it connects the flags are going up.

[xvikingx]

This all really interesting. Thanks Neil. OW, when you do kirikaeshi, do you do it in nito? Or do you switch off between warm ups and jigeiko? I can't imagine what kirikaeshi would be like using nito.

[JSchmidt]

The two big advantages to jodan from my POV as an occasional player are seme and the quality of the attack.

Another major factor is distance. You gain 20cm of reach (depend on size), which means that the jodan player can be within his cutting distance, whereas the chudan player will not be able to reach.

Jakob

[Old Warrior]

Kirakaeshi (Yung Yuk) is also done in nito. And, those crisp, but not clubbing cuts, take real forearm muscle control. It is no where's near as easy with one hand.

[xvikingx]

Kirakaeshi (Yung Yuk) is also done in nito. And, those crisp, but not clubbing cuts, take real forearm muscle control. It is no where's near as easy with one hand.

I cant imagine. :ko: I know that I am absolutely spent after kirikaeshi using both hands.

[Phorest]

I would be all over nito if it weren't for my scrawny arms. But...I'm training in chudan and lifting 3 days a week! Wooo! Maybe nito someday.

Yeah...I honestly cannot imagine doing hardcore kirikaeshi (like when my sensei spends half of practice doing it to work us out) with the daito... :dead: I tried goofing around with a shoto/daito today (got them as a gift)...and wow! All I can say is that I respect those of you who hold those up and manage to do an entire practice with 'em.

And heres a good question...what can you nito guys bench?! :p Hey, I need some kind of goal right?

[JSchmidt]

And heres a good question...what can you nito guys bench?! :p Hey, I need some kind of goal right?

What you can bench is largely irrelevant as it's far more an issue of finger/wrist strength rather than arm/shoulder strength.

Jakob

[Phorest]

Well no....I'm thinking more along the lines of how-long-can-you-hold-your-arms-up strength. I'm sure that plays a big role too.

[alexpollijr]

Well no....I'm thinking more along the lines of how-long-can-you-hold-your-arms-up strength. I'm sure that plays a big role too.

No, really. Jakob is right. The main issue are the forearm muscles. Of course, having strong abdominal, shoulder, back and chest muscles really adds to stability.

Once Ares (long time no see) gave me somes tips on his workout routine so I adapted it and somehow it seems to be helping out a lot. One very good execise is wrist curl, front and reverse, done with a bar and weights ( a 6kg bar plus 7 kg on each side for a total of 20 kgs ), 3 series of 15 reps. Just take care to begin only with the barbell, it can really damage your wrists. Also tricep and shoulder exercises ( shoulder press/military press, upright row and lateral raises) help as well.

As for how much I can bench, that'd be 55-60 kgs these days, which is not much of an objective.

- Alexandre