Texas Open FINAL MATCH

[Thunder]

Here is the final Match in the Texas Open Kendo
Ishikawa Sensei vs.
Marsten Sensei

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYdacL8dPzU

[D'Artagnan]

1st men was *OK* but i've seen better

dou cut was crap

[Ignatz]

I thought men was pretty sharp. Ippon without any reservation.

While I would hesitate to call the do "crap", my flag would not have gone up.

[tango]

I assume we're talking about Curtis Marsten? ... because the head shimpan of the match looks an awful lot like Jeff... (apologies for the informality of using first names here)..

By the way... who's red and who's white? .. I can't make out much..

[tango]

Ah nevermind...
Marsten - red
Ishikawa - white

[Curtis]

Here is the final Match in the Texas Open Kendo
Ishikawa Sensei vs.
Marsten Sensei

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYdacL8dPzU

I would not call this one of my shining moments. I became impatient and wanted to get the match over. My earlier matches were better in my mind. I sure had fun though.

The doh hit quite well.

There is no escaping you guys.

[Bokushingu]

not worthy of judging, but very exciting match Marsten Sensei Thank you for sharing.

I have more Sensei kieko to watch & study--Yay! :)

[Ignatz]

I would not call this one of my shining moments.. . .

Pretty good for a geezer.

[Charlie]

Great match!

[Curtis]

Pretty good for a geezer.

Hey, who you calling a geezer? I am a wheezer in his fifties!

Actually I was not going to compete because of my plantar fasciitis, then changed my mind. Then I competed the following weekend at Vancouver and came away with a 3rd in geritol league and could hardly walk at the end of the day.

I now have a torn quad, rectus femoris, and they cannot reattach it. I am down to a tri now. Stupid, stupid, stupid, trying to do wind sprints with my son.

Must let body heal. I'll be baaack...

[AlexM]

1st men was *OK* but i've seen better

dou cut was crap

Men-nuki-men... Looked fine to me for fencers so advanced in years (i.e old). Of course you've seen better men-uchi... You're not the only one who watches the All-Japan's ;) .

The more I watch the dou the more I like it actually. I didn't see anything to say it wasn't ippon. Jeff Marsten didn't like it though. What do the rest of you object to about it?

[Curtis]

1st men was *OK* but i've seen better



I stepped right into it, fell short on my attack. Talk about an open invitation to get hit.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

I think that it was a clear MEN ippon, but it wasn´t a "perfect" one, it looked to me like the arms were doing most of the work, not the whole body and the legs were quite left behind, still I like it a lot, and you can see that the strike was delivered with full spirit... that makes it for me.

[Paburo]

i think the dou was a lot better than the men actually...

the men is very static and grandpa kendo, even for 'old' sensei (don't know their age actually). granted ishikawa sense¡'s men is bigger, more straight and strong... but there's something about that going-backwards-walking-small-steps zanshin that just doesn't do it for me...

the dou on the other hand is cool. marsten sensei doesn't even get to touch ishikawa sensei cause his cut has been blocked and effectively replied with a clean dou, which ishikawa this time does move forward and cuts through... nice :D

well, that's how my newbie's eye see it anywaay :P

in any case... thanks for posting! :D

[Kenshi]

Most people here (including myself I might add) should be getting commented on by Curtis and not making comments too.

[Thunder]

Most people here (including myself I might add) should be getting commented on by Curtis and not making comments too.

I was thinking along the same lines. We the "lowly" have no place in the critique of a match we would have never had the opportunity in participating in. My only hope, in another 20 years of practice is to be good enough to face opponents such as these two gentlemen.

I face Ishikawa on a weekly basis, and I can testify for a fact that he has no trouble reading my mind and blocking every movement I try.

We are stepping out of place to think we could critique and "judge" this match. Only the opponent and the judges have that right.

[D'Artagnan]

What do the rest of you object to about it?

After trying, and obviously failing, to avoid posting a justification of my opinion I went ahead and decided to anyway...

I think the men was, as I said *OK* as, the opportunity/timing was good, and Curtis, as he said 'left himself open', the strike was reasonable - though (perhaps due to the video quality) te-no-uchi seemed abit wet. But what happened to kime, zanshin, all the stuff paburo said basically. Like I said, I though it was just *OK* possibly wouldn't score it myself, and I know for a fact that it wouldn't score if I did it as a player.

And, as I said before, I think Curtis was robbed of the dou. yeah it struck nicely, but it just wasn't 'claimed' as ippon by the player - no seperation, no real zanshin, kiai was not great, no kime again, just (to me) looked like he just didn't 'believe' in it. In the video I see a guy strike his opponent's dou, but I don't see him achieveing dou ippon. Therefore I agree with the shushin - i.e. it was crap.

As with both points, I've seen better, not just in the All Japans :wink:
However, having said that I have also seen much worse to be 'considered' ippon too.

also as this is apparently a match between two senior ranked players, it just seems a shame that it didn't end with 'nicer' points - but hey, such is life, and it happens all the time (WKC, EKC, etc.)

I would, however, like to add, that I'm certainly not criticising the abilities of the shinpan, or of the players. I was just stating my opinion on my interpretation of the video footage.


lastly it's way past my bed-time, so if I made spelling or grammmmmatticallrrell mistakes, sorry

[D'Artagnan]

I was thinking along the same lines. We the "lowly" have no place in the critique of a match we would have never had the opportunity in participating in.

What do you mean?

[Neil Gendzwill]

He meant that as the division was yondan and up, most of the punters making comments wouldn't have even been allowed to play with the big boys.

[Kenshi]

This is probably the first time ive disagreed with your Andy. Basically, there are all types of kendo. You might be aiming to do one sort, but there is a big wide kendo world out there.

There is no fixed method to exhibit "zanshin" in the same way there is no fixed method to do a men cut.

If you wouldnt score a cut but a 7dan would, surely - unless its an obvious/honest error on behalf of the shinpan (it happens) - you should reflect on why you wouldnt. Are you judging by different standards?

Refrees in a shiai situation will alter what is required to be an ippon based on a lot of factors, including age and experience. Ive done official shinpanning from 6yr old kids who are barely in bogu up to unofficial shinpanning for matches between a 8dan (past wkc/police/all japan winner) and All Japan level competitors. Obviously, you dont score the matches the same way.

(I often refuse giving points to that 8dan... much to his chagrin. Sometimes he looks at me like I dont know what im doing...... and takes the point anyway!)

You can often see v.bad referees in kids shiai here in Japan. Bad because they almost never award ippon..... they expect the kids to pull out a Miyazaki men or an Eiga katatezuki on someone. Its not going to happen.

On that katatezuki - ive had many people say that Eigas final tsuki on the 12WKC looked a bit weak after they saw the video (they werent there). What do you think, good or bad?

[Curtis]

This is probably the first time ive disagreed with your Andy. Basically, there are all types of kendo. You might be aiming to do one sort, but there is a big wide kendo world out there.

There is no fixed method to exhibit "zanshin" in the same way there is no fixed method to do a men cut.

If you wouldnt score a cut but a 7dan would, surely - unless its an obvious/honest error on behalf of the shinpan (it happens) - you should reflect on why you wouldnt. Are you judging by different standards?

Refrees in a shiai situation will alter what is required to be an ippon based on a lot of factors, including age and experience. Ive done official shinpanning from 6yr old kids who are barely in bogu up to unofficial shinpanning for matches between a 8dan (past wkc/police/all japan winner) and All Japan level competitors. Obviously, you dont score the matches the same way.

(I often refuse giving points to that 8dan... much to his chagrin. Sometimes he looks at me like I dont know what im doing...... and takes the point anyway!)

You can often see v.bad referees in kids shiai here in Japan. Bad because they almost never award ippon..... they expect the kids to pull out a Miyazaki men or an Eiga katatezuki on someone. Its not going to happen.

On that katatezuki - ive had many people say that Eigas final tsuki on the 12WKC looked a bit weak after they saw the video (they werent there). What do you think, good or bad?

As to my match which is generating so much comment, the shinpan were right on the money. And trust me, I will say so if I think otherwise. I did lousy in the final. Up to that point I had done everything exactly the way I wanted.

As to Eiga's tsuki, my brother was sitting right there, saw the whole match and will swear by that tsuki. He can describe the whole match and exactly how it played out.

[ben]

I think video in general only conveys the outward appearance of yuko datotsu, with none of the spirit or energy. It is excellent as a mirror to your own faults, but should be used sparingly in examining the 'faults' of others, especially in regards to events where you weren't present in the flesh.

Eiga's katatezuki was not the most "PAAAAAAARN!" tsuki I've ever seen, but it was technically perfect, was an excellent opportunity and gave Kim pause (he rocks back lifting his right foot slightly and offers no waza in reply). And that's just from the video.

b

[Kenshi]

As to Eiga's tsuki, my brother was sitting right there, saw the whole match and will swear by that tsuki. He can describe the whole match and exactly how it played out.

I was sitting on the edge of the shiai-jo as well. Diagonally left begind Eiga... so I was in a great position as well. I have no doubts as to that one... thats not my point!

[Curtis]

I was sitting on the edge of the shiai-jo as well. Diagonally left begind Eiga... so I was in a great position as well. I have no doubts as to that one... thats not my point!

Exactly, you cannot tell by a video alone.

I have looked at video of my matches only to have them confirm why the point was not awarded. It was very clear why I should not have got it even though at the time I felt I had done better.

[AlexM]

After trying, and obviously failing, to avoid posting a justification of my opinion I went ahead and decided to anyway...


That's right you silly English person, I called you out. Now everyone can see how wrong you are, everyone! I'm sending this link to the IKF so they review the video and tell you how wrong you are: Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Anyway, you're opinion is valid unfortunately. Kendo and ippon being somewhat fluid concepts thanks to the nature of the Japanese language and thought. You could well say you didn't like the zanshin on either hit but remember:
A) It's on video
B) Curtis was more open than a New Orleans brothel during Mardi Gras
C) Don't be difficult you snob! (sorry, but you are an ippon snob)

Here's a link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEpnoxOmanM) to one of the ugliest dou-uchi ippon I've ever seen by one of the best kendoka I've ever seen. The one in Texas was easily better (based on the video evidence). Some things in kendo must remain subjective.

All this is more interesting to talk about then the usual stuff: Beats the constant discussions about how kendo is Korean or Japanese (or all those freaking religious threads). It's all in good fun and I'm sure Curtis is relatively secure with his kendo to take all the jabs in stride. Either that or he's seething with rage and tracking down the people that posted here... I'm going to go lock my front door now.

[Curtis]

B) Curtis was more open than a New Orleans brothel during Mardi Gras.

Uh, not exactly the comparison I was looking for...

B) Curtis was more open than a New Orleans brothel during Mardi Gras
It's all in good fun and I'm sure Curtis is relatively secure with his kendo to take all the jabs in stride. Either that or he's seething with rage and tracking down the people that posted here... I'm going to go lock my front door now.

I am happy to practice with anyone. Nothing you guys say here can compare to the scolding I get from my wife when I perform badly, in particular when I get tight and do not stand up straight. I often have to grow back a bit of my backside.

I would have preferred my opening match to this one.

I will tell you that trying to prepare for shinsa and then entering a tournament do not go together well. Trying to pull the waza that work for me without recent practice makes them go oh so wrong. But it was still FUN!

[Ignatz]

.. . .
I now have a torn quad, rectus femoris, and they cannot reattach it. I am down to a tri now. Stupid, stupid, stupid, trying to do wind sprints with my son.

Must let body heal. I'll be baaack...
Oh boo hooo. I just had a PET scan and my chest lit up like a string of chilli pepper lights. Get a team down to Austin for the Longhorn Invitational and we can drink all night and battle all day.

Geezers rule!!!!!

Rum and Geritol on the rocks.

[AlexM]

Uh, not exactly the comparison I was looking for...


Yeah... I hesitated long before using that particular metaphore. It's late, it's hot as hell and I've had a large pastis.

I plead guilty to the charge of posting while under the influence.

[Curtis]

Oh boo hooo. I just had a PET scan and my chest lit up like a string of chilli pepper lights. Get a team down to Austin for the Longhorn Invitational and we can drink all night and battle all day.

Geezers rule!!!!!

Rum and Geritol on the rocks.


No boo hoo, just cannot believe the stupidty of it. I knew better and still did it. I was expecting maybe a hamstring pull which is normal for me. Quad never occurred to me while trying to spur my young one on. Doc says I am healing up well, expect to be back on the floor doing something besides teaching soon.

We have thought about going to the Longhorn before.

Make mine coca-cola straight up.

[Ignatz]

We have thought about going to the Longhorn before.


They will probably have six courts going this year, it is getting bigger and bigger.

[tgsfg]

On that katatezuki - ive had many people say that Eigas final tsuki on the 12WKC looked a bit weak after they saw the video (they werent there). What do you think, good or bad?
In my humble opinion, it looked strong even on the video.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

I don´t see wrong or evil in commenting one´s opinion about a video.

[Mr.Tvola]

I like the do ippon on the video.

[ahmed61086]

The Men was realy good. I think.

[Bokushingu]

wet behind the ears newb entering the room... So im confused. what exactly makes a pretty Dou and what makes an ugly one?

[D'Artagnan]

That's right you silly English person...

That's where I stopped reading

[D'Artagnan]

If you wouldnt score a cut but a 7dan would, surely - unless its an obvious/honest error on behalf of the shinpan (it happens) -

I totally agree with all the points you made mate!

But also, I'm sure you would agree that not all 7th dans are wonderful shinpans. However thats not to say that I am saying that these guys aren't good shinpans - before people get carried away. However, from the video footage (which is all I have to go off) it looks like they made an honest judgment error in this case - as George said - it happens.

[Kingofmyrrh]

wet behind the ears newb entering the room... So im confused. what exactly makes a pretty Dou and what makes an ugly one?

Pictures of tsunami, tigers and strippers on your do gets you all the right kind of loving.

[D'Artagnan]

Here's a link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEpnoxOmanM) to one of the ugliest dou-uchi ippon I've ever seen by one of the best kendoka I've ever seen. The one in Texas was easily better (based on the video evidence). Some things in kendo must remain subjective.



Only just got chance to watch this vid. This is a fantastic shiai between my two 'kendo heroes', even though Eiga's first men wasn't neccessarily *brilliant* - it contained all of the elements of what I personally think is real ippon.

I assume you are being sarcastic about the dou here!?!?!? Miyazaki's dou was clearly perfect ippon - it had everything that the one in theTexas video didn't!

I haven't seen this vid before, I think its brilliant, thanks for posting!!

[kendokamax]

Compare to other people at All Japan level Miyazaki's do sucks. Or at least seems a bit unnatural.

Even in his book he doesnt introduce his do technique because he says that even thought he practices do seriously, he sucks at it. I think its quite funny.

But for that match even if I think his do looks weird and not very good. You have to give him credit to pull it out during that match (this match was very long encho). That guy, he really can use anything to win. He is a genius of kendo shiai.

[Shawn Dormishev]

NOT TO GET OFF TOPIC, TO MUCH. Ignatz when is the longhorn this year.
we are still trying to get 5 people.

[Ignatz]

I think the second weekend in October.

[AlexM]

Only just got chance to watch this vid. This is a fantastic shiai between my two 'kendo heroes', even though Eiga's first men wasn't neccessarily *brilliant* - it contained all of the elements of what I personally think is real ippon.

I assume you are being sarcastic about the dou here!?!?!? Miyazaki's dou was clearly perfect ippon - it had everything that the one in theTexas video didn't!

I haven't seen this vid before, I think its brilliant, thanks for posting!!

That's Naoki Eiga's older brother, the high school teacher: I really liked his men-uchi actually, I thought he deserved to win the match.

It wasn't sarcasm. I definately think Miyazaki's dou was ippon: No doubt about it. But esthetically speaking the follow-through portion was ugly compared dou-uchi at that level and even lower levels. I mean look at it: It looks like he ages 20 years in the span of half a second! I think it looks unnatural and was far from "perfect". It's still ippon though: datotsubu, datotsubui, zanshin, just like the Texas video (although I understand if the zanshin is up for debate).

Like Maxime said, even Miyazaki doesn't think his dou-uchi technique is very good. But when you can hit men and kote like no one else can who cares about dou really.

[Paburo]

in the miyazaki vs, eiga match i think all of the three ippon were ace.... specially miyazaki's! really, brilliant all of them...

[D'Artagnan]

That's Naoki Eiga's older brother...

So it is, my mistake! I thought he looked taller

[ben]

I LOVED Eiga's opening men. What a fantastic, yet supremely difficult opportunity, just after resetting from tsubazeriai. He really found Miyazaki flat-footed, and that's not something that happens often! Now that's what I call PAAAAAARRNN!!

b

[Kenshi]

But also, I'm sure you would agree that not all 7th dans are wonderful shinpans.

Agreed (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=266261&postcount=10)

　　　　　　　　　　　　　

[Curtis]

I got to practice with Miyazaki sensei right after he had won the All Japan I think the first time. We were in Denver for a tournament and I did exhibition keiko with him. First thing he tried to tsuki me and I parried it. Then he settled in to hitting my men. I think he held back quite a bit.

The next day at practice he hit my men about 10 or 20 times or at least it seemed like that many.

[ahmed61086]

I thought that men by eiga was fucking sweet.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

both, miyazaki´s and Eiga´s MEN were great, Eiga´s was more imponent IMO and Miyazaki´s was most stunnig, I mean, It´s like there was no distance between them.

[ahmed61086]

;266298']both, miyazaki´s and Eiga´s MEN were great, Eiga´s was more imponent IMO and Miyazaki´s was most stunnig, I mean, It´s like there was no distance between them.

Miyazaki's looked like a sashi men, but I realy couldn't tell because of the angle. It was also amazing.