Sartorial differences

[cklin]

OK, I've another poll question related to kendo-wear:

What do people think about uniforms worn by the Korean National Team?

I think the incorporation of velcro into the hakama is pretty neat.

[KhawMengLee]

Where's an example?

[olaf]

I think what cklin is referring to is the particular style of hakama that many kumdo players wear - the white hakama with the black "stripe" along the sides. If anyone has a picture of the Korean national team at WKC, for instance, we can show you an example.

I will try and look for such a picture.

A random note: the poll program is somewhat buggy - no one had voted when I got here, so I voted once, and it automatically updated the poll with one vote in each category...strange.

[Achilles]

Yes, Olaf is correct. White hakamas with black stripes are worn in my Korean Kumdo school (the US Hwa Rang Kwan, check us out at http://www.kumdo.com). Advanced students (3-khup and higher) tend to wear all blue, just like Japanese kendoka.

[ben]

I dont know exactly how the velcro hakama works, but the function of the himo on a traditional hakama is quite specific (see article in KW2 on kendo and breathing). The knot that one ties at the front (otoko-musubi) should press lightly on the "one-point", that point below the navel that is reputed in Eastern medicine to be the seat of the body's power. Or, for mr alexpollijr, it is the point that represents the body's absolute centre of gravity.

Without knowledge of this part of the body and its effect on one's kendo, I would argue that it is impossible to exhibit "kigurai". The velcro fastening would seem to make this more difficult.

b

[alexpollijr]

Never saw the velcro hakama also, but I don't know if there's any need for it, himo works fine and is fancier. The black stripes and koshita of korean guys looks ugly I think. Full indigo blue is much nicer to my eyes.
here in the dojo we use to joke about fatty guys saying that their 'hara' (the 'Seat of Body power') is well-developed. Or that they should take off the extra Dodai they carry under the keikogi, this kind of uncorteous and sarcastic humor that arises in post-keiko beerfest.

[olaf]

Yes, I knew about the "adidas" stripes along the side of the hakama, but where does the velcro come in?

[cklin]

Well, there are two types of korean hakama -- (1) like a white Japanese kind, just with the black trim; (2) the velcro kind (this, I believe is the kind the Korean National Team wears).

Let me try to describe it:

Basically, there is no koshita, just a wide (black) belt that extends to wrap around the entire waist (this is where the velcro is). There are still obi on the hakama, but just the back two, which are tied in front first. The velcro waist band is then wrapped over the knot from the obi. It's actually a pretty neat invention, I think.

You can't really tell any of this when the tare is on though.

I'm wondering, is there any particular reason that a koshita exists a Japanese hakama? I mean, aside from it being fashionable or whatnot.

[dr_evil]

Well I think the velcro hakama with the white stripes are COOL!!!!!!!!!

Hey, anybody knows where to get one????

[inner_cent]

I'm not being bias, but for for my point, somehow, korean's Kumdo is more or less replica of japanese Kendo. Their Gi and Harkama is the same except colour. And if you have a look at Kumdo competition, you can see referee uses white and purple flag instead.
Not sure how you guys feel, somehow, i just find it quite funny they always prefer to use something that is different from the tradition.


And replying to Dr_evil ......

Dr_evil said ..
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I think the velcro hakama with the white stripes are COOL!!!!!!!!!

Hey, anybody knows where to get one????
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, DR_Evil, If you really want to wear one, u better wear them at home and not in SKC or any of the affiliated club. If you don't get wack by other seniors the sensei defiantely make u do non-stop kakarikeiko till your pant drop.
<= above is the comment from an ex- member of the SKC club, speaking to some junior member of SKC.

[Kenshi]

I think the stripe is a dark blue, rather than black (isnt it?). I recently got the opportunity to fence someone wearing this gear. When I first saw him I went "uh oh" and thought that maybe he was a senior korean kendoka..... but it turns out he was only shodan.

The threads look cool (I changed my mind after seeing them in proximity) but they wont make you a better kendoka.

The nicest hakama I have seen was a v.v.v dark red... the person wearing it was a young american lass. It wasnt a kendo keiko though.

[hamish]

Inner_cent: re. the blue and white flags, I believe those colours have the same meaning in Korea as red and white do in Japanese tradition, so I don't think it's change for the sake of it.

And as for the new blue and white judo gi . . .

[Kenshi]

>the sensei defiantely make u do non-stop kakarikeiko till your pant[s] drop.<

Sometimes american english still makes me smile (despite having lived there for years) ............. :D

[Sup]

Kumdo(Kendo) stands for a lot of things in Korea. Unfortunately Japnaese Emperialism is one of em.

The Emperial Japan ruled Korea during the early part of the 20th century. The Japanese deliberately tried to wipe out the Korean language from the face of the earth during the rule. Needless to say we didnt appreciate that. We dont like having to 'Have to' use Japanese words. As you all know, the words used in Kendo are actually words that describe the action or the parts of the body that are being hit or whatever. We Koreans just like to call a person's wrist with our own vocabulary like 'Sonmok' instead of using japanese such as 'Kote'.

The uniform part.
In Korea, you wouldnt be caught dead wearing Traditional Japanese clothing unless it was for a diplomatic occasion or some Corporate exhibition.
The family members of those who've been tortured, killed, drafted to fight in the Japanese Emperial Army, as well as the relatives of the Pleasure Women[Korean(asian) who were practically kidnapped to serve as sex slaves for the Japanese emperial army during WW2] would more than raise their eyebrows. The people mentioned above means virtually the whole Korean population.
This is why we try to differentiate ourselves with the uniform. The uniform is VERY Japanese and it tends to be a tad too much for us sometimes. The Korean national team attends international competitions wearing our adidas-like uniforms to make a statement.

We'd like to convey our highest respects to the Japanese Kendo Tradition.
But frankly, we'd like to hold our own.


I personally think the striped Korean uniform is kinda cheasy. But Ive heard the stripe does have meaning dating back to the Hwa-rangs(Korean Knights who served a couple thousand years back).
NO! we didnt have velcro back then!! :D


Anyhow, Id like to say this.
The differance is not about confrontation. It's about Koreans being Koreans.

Thanx for reading this through

[olaf]

Thanks to Sup for a very informative and eloquently stated explanation of the Korean psyche and tradition. I agree with most of your points, regarding the importance of cultural identity, especially in such a polarized situation like the one that had existed between Korea and Japan.

On the other hand,Kendo is after all an element of Japanese tradition; putting your cultural or ideological preferences aside, when you commit yourself to studying the art of another culture, shouldn't this committment be accompanied by a certain level of respect and acceptance? If you were intent on learning about another culture, but approach your learning with both reverence and yet resistence, won't this end up being more of a mental roadblock to your progress or understanding?

I think as a general rule, when we voluntarily come into contact with facets of another culture, we are tacitly agreeing to abide by (at least partly) a new and alien set of rules, whether we like it or not. When in Rome, act like a Roman, right?

If Kumdo were all about "Koreans being Koreans", perhaps it would be more prudent for the Koreans to stick to studying a native Korean martial art? Cultural exchange is a two-way street - if your studying of kendo conflicts with certain ideologies, it may be best to cast some of those ideologies aside and allow certain tenets of kendo to fill up that gap. This is the process by which cultural dialogue allows individuals to reap the "best of both worlds". It is essentially at the core of what being a "citizen of the world" - especially in this day and age - is all about.

And - I really don't mean to be this harsh to your argument, Sup...just playing the devil's advocate - to embody so much cultural pride and identity in an "adidas stripe" or a piece of velcro...isn't that itself somewhat superficial? If Kumdo were all about Koreans taking a Japanese art and fitting it to a Korean set of values, perhaps the way to go would be to study, practice, and attain such a high mastery of this art that your Kumdo/Kendo ability surpasses that of even most Japanese! What better way to prove your culture's uniqueness and value, than to excel at an activity that is inherently foreign to you, by applying your own set of principles to it?

Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken, gentlemen...

[cklin]

Olaf: But the end result of cultural interaction isn't necessarily to adopt a foreign culture 100%, right? I mean cultural evolution would be meaningless if that were the case and there'd, e.g., still be rampant seppuku in Japan or European food would suck (no spices).

Like you said, to benefit most from exposure to other cultures or traditions, you have to analyze what's good and what's bad, taking into consideration your own cultural tenets. Then you can make a good decision as to what you'll incorporate and what to leave out or change. In my (uneducated) opinion, kumdo is past the point of cultural "immersion" and has evolved into this phase of "analysis". I'm sure some would even argue that it's past "analysis" and has reached a "conclusion"...

So, I guess what I'm saying is that if the soul of kumdo and kendo are the same, then does it matter what color the clothes are?

[olaf]

I think you've hit the nail right on, cklin. Indeed, the aim and result of cultural interaction should not be a full adaptation of the new culture in question - that would constitute assimilation, hardly a healthy end result.

What I was trying to question was Sup's argument, that the distinctiveness in Kumdo attire can be wholly attributed to Korean players wanting to preserve their cultural identity in the midst of pursuing an ever-deeper understanding of a foreign art.

I think you're right - that Kumdo is past its infant phases and has evolved into a respected art of its own. If Kumdo practitioners all approached their training with the mindset Sup describes, I don't think Kumdo will have made the progress that it can now boast.

As to cultural interaction, of course it is ultimately about analysis, identifying the good and bad, so that one might eventually reap the best of both worlds. But it is also an objective analysis, without bias or resistence at the starting line.

Alas, why can't we just all hold our hands and sing, "we are the world..."? :)

Perhaps Confucius puts it best when he notes that while in the company of any two men, there is always something good he can learn from each of them, and them from each other.

[cklin]

Olaf: Thanks, but I think I was being unclear about that last rhetorical question I asked...

Kumdo and kendo are very similar, and yet they are different, with the differences perhaps born from nationalistic arguments as well as from fundamental practical differences (I gather that kumdo has a greater element of a "battlefield mentality", rather than a "dojo mentality" -- someone correct me if I'm mistaken).

I was actually trying to point out that if kumdo and kendo are similar, though differing in philosophy, then wouldn't it make sense to have different clothes, if only as a symbol of the differences?

(The anti-Imperial/nationalistic argument, regardless of what its detractors may say, is a strong one. Being from Hong Kong, I have no institution equivalent to kumdo and so I still find it difficult to explain to my grandparents -- who lived through that era of Japanese aggression -- why I continue to play kendo. Now that I think about it, kumdo could probably have made the explanations a whole lot easier! :P)

[inner_cent]

I totally understand how Sup feel about korea's past, but its more of personal belief here I'm more or less want to highlight.
Not sure how to put my wording into it, but what I'm trying say is, that since we are training in Kendo, of course we should open our mind for improvement in terms of the "art" itself. But if bring in changes for the sake of anti-imperial/nationalistic, it just mean to taint the "Art" you are trying to improve on.
Maybe like Olaf said, if you dispite the country, why do you still want to "Learn" it ? And for the Hwa-rang you mentioned, I would had thought these are more related to the Chinese martial-art in the ancient time than kendo (sorry for my ignorant if I got it wrong).

I'm not been anti-imperialism or Pro-Japanese about things here. Just feels that a culture art should not be affect for the sake of nationalism.
The war is a terrible thing. If people can settle their differences, and forgive their ancestor's past doing, this world will be alot better place to be. No point holding the past hatre to pass it to the next generation. <= this should be in another thread !!!!! :P

[olaf]

Ditto that, inner_cent.

Cklin: now that you brought up the personal issue of you trying to justify your study of kendo to your traditional Chinese grandparents...how would you explain your genuine devotion to this martial art?

Do you, too, share some of Sup's sentiments? How have you managed to compensate for the nationalistic pride factor?

Forgive me for the personal question...I am merely curious.

[KhawMengLee]

Cklin: now that you brought up the personal issue of you trying to justify your study of kendo to your traditional Chinese grandparents...how would you explain your genuine devotion to this martial art?

Now I will say this once, The Japanese did some pretty F*cking horrible things during the war.

The stories my grand parents tell...jeez...

The pain still runs deep in. My grandad was forced to climb coconut trees to "fetch" for japanese soldiers. Under the tree they placed their bayonets to "motivate" him to climb. Or how my other grandfather had to go into hiding because he was in the home guard. Meaning if the japanese caught him he would be beheaded. The stories go on...etc

I must admit at times feel awkward telling them about things like...eg. kendo or my girlfriend (who is japanese). Though they were really cool about the girlfriend...surprisingly.

Kendo...to me..is a philosophy, discipline and martial art. What happened during the war was done by people not the philosophy of Kendo.

Darwin came up with some very good theories on evolution. The Nazis read this all wrong...eg. survival of the fittest. putting forward the meaning the Aryan's where superior...etc

What I'm trying to say here is that the philosophy is sound but it is the conduct and the rational of the people who practice it that can go wrong.

By this post I bear no hate. There is enough of that in the world as it is. But at the same time the sins of the past should not be forgotten, lest we repeat them again.

Kendo teaches us a lot of good and it is not a bad martial art.

PEACE
Meng

[Sup]

If you saw a Kendo(Kumdo) match for the first time. It really seems like two people just
hitting eachother with a stick. But we all know that it goes deeper than that.
Devotion, Self Discipline, Mental training are what the art is really about.
Korea does have our own version of that tradition. So we employ our tradition when teaching. We'd like to take a hold of our roots and build upon the framework of Kumdo/Kendo.
Its the same when we make our uniforms with a token of our tradition stitched into it.
Might seem trivial but it does mean alot to the ones who do it.

People in Europe will get to put on their tradional patches and Insignias from the medieval times on their arms or whatever if they feel the need to do so I guess.


We dig the Japanese, but we do have some of our own things to say that's all.

Have fun!

[olaf]

Thanks for all the replies fellas. Anyone know why Kendo World was down yesterday?

[ben]

I second that Olaf. I want to say thanks to everyone, especially Sup, for their honesty in this thread. It's amazing to hear all these stories. It really gives me an insight into the sorts of issues some of my students, who represent nearly every East Asian country, might be facing by doing kendo. Thanks guys.

b

[cklin]

I guess I'll throw in my two cents here too.

I more or less hold the same opinions as KhawMengLee, though I don't know if I agree 100% with this statement that "kendo doesn't kill people, people kill people". Taken at face value, this is of course true. But if you dig deeper, I think really the objection raised by our grandparents is precisely the distinctly Japanese martial philosophy -- the whole a-bushi-is-ready-to-die-for-his-lord/kamikaze mindset -- that made that era so cruelly brutal. And it's true that this mindset is somewhat reflected in kendo philosophy. What I think they don't understand is that this easily (at least for me) transmutes into the argument that a certain percentage of that mentality is needed to really push oneself beyond one's perceived limits. It's that disregard for self (ego) that permits you to improve, in kendo and in all other walks of life.

Hong Kong was slightly better off during the period of Japanese occupation b/c it was under British rule. Still, my grandmother had to cut her hair and dress like a boy for obvious reasons. Walking near the bay, there would be headless bodies (and worse) from the Mainland floating out to sea...

It's hard to justify practising kendo in light of these things, but I make an honest attempt. What I get out of kendo -- lessons learned from perseverance, the mental gamesmanship, etc -- transcends cultural and historical boundaries. It might be true that you could very well learn these same lessons from Chinese martial arts, but then we get down to the question of personality. Even *within* Chinese wushu, someone's going to ask you why you choose to study shaolin instead of wing-chun, right?

Ultimately, the reasons for my choice are very personal. The straight-forwardness of kendo ("Keep center!" "Go forward!" "Zanshin!") resonates with aspects of my own character. It's straight-up. The cerebral me is fascinated with the seemingly irreconcilable dichotomy of reigi and the act of bashing someone's head in (that's another thread). And the quixotic me is happy to spend so much time learning something that is so practically useless.

Speaking along the lines of its impracticality: kendo is sufficiently divorced from its martial roots (the roots are more ancient), which -- I think -- makes it somewhat more palatable to my grandparents. Contrast kendo with jukendo (the crazy bayonet "art")... even I think that's a little extreme.

In the end, people have to be proactive about bridging cultures, especially when there's been a bloody history amongst them. My generation doesn't know the horrors of East Asia in the 1940-50s and as a result, it's senseless for us to continue intensely hostile sentiments. I sometimes run into very nationalistic people my age who point to that period in history as a reason for censuring all things Japanese (or British, b/c of the colonial rule - which incidently, I think ultimately brought a lot of good to HK). That kind of puts me off because these people usually hold such sentiments because they don't really understand their own culture and end up using this kind of extreme nationalism as a cover for their own cultural illiteracy.

As KhawMengLee said, we shouldn't forget history, but this is so we aren't doomed to repeat it...

[cklin]

Oops my history is off by a decade, I meant "East Asia in the 1930s-40s"...

[olaf]

Of course, I don't have sufficient cultural background for ammo to continue this engaging dialogue. Though I can't say I'm completely ignorant of how many Chinese kenshi feel about the intrinsic cultural clash between their heritage and the values embodied in kendo... during my work in Shanghai and Hong Kong some years ago I was fortunate enough to become quite involved in the local kendo communities, and heard many a WWII story from some of the older members, or at least from their retelling of family stories.

In retrospect, this historical aspect of kendo probably poses the most challenging dichotomy of all, between the set of values running the gamut from bushido to kamikaze, and the process of internalizing these values and somehow adapting them to our own set of beliefs and what not.

But cklin - I definitely agree with the jukendo part - that is perhaps one of the most offensive "sports" or 'arts" I have ever seen. I saw a videotape of a budo demonstration once, and saw the maniac bayonette fellas. Completely ridiculous. That should have been outlawed long ago...or at least get players to use regular sticks and not those wooden rifle-shaped "shinai".

[ben]

This dichotomy which you mention Olaf is, I think, neatly summarised by the two concepts "ai-uchi" and "ai-nuki". Some branches of the Itto-ryu emphasise(d) "ai-uchi" as the ultimate technique, IOW, it doesn't matter if you get killed, so long as you take your opponent with you. The Yagyu-Ryu on the other hand, emphasised "ai-nuki", or "mutual escape". Rather than a stalemate ending in both bushi dying, it can end in both bushi surviving.

This is that grey area where Technique flows into Worldview and vice versa. Or to put it another way, what should we make of what we learn? How should we apply it in life? It depends partly on the psychology individual and partly on the

Re jukendo: I have to disagree with you there. I don't think you can say jukendo is any more or less 'offensive' than kendo. How is bayotting someone in a stylised fashion any more warlike than cutting someone in half in a stylised fashion?

b

[ben]

Oops! I see I didn't finish that sentence. I meant to say "...and partly on the teacher."

FWIW :0

b

[cklin]

Ben: At least for me, the biggest difference between jukendo and kendo is that the techniques in jukendo were/are employed in modern wars. Thus, its martial ties are fresh and still salient to life (and death) today. I respectfully, but completely, disagree that jukendo is stylized in any way. If you put a bayonet on the end of the jukendo weapon (what's it called, I wonder?), you *can* go and skewer someone with those same techniques.

Kendo on the other hand doesn't really teach you how to strike with a sword, since the physics of a shinai are all sorts of different.

[alexpollijr]

The comment about Jukendo sounds almost correct to me.

The last knife-specialized batallion in function in the world's modern armies was decimated in the Falklands Wars. It was an Argentinian battalion. If we take a look at modern guns, they no longer are designed to carry bayonets. The Enfield (Eng), the Steyr Aug (Aus), all these are impossible to use with Jukendo/French bayonet techniques, and don't feature support for it.

And about kendo. sure. shinai kendo is different from real sword techniques, we still have Iaido, Kendo Kata and Tameshigiri, which employs a 'real' sword.

[ben]

cklin, I think you have hit the nail on the head. You find jukendo "offensive" because it is a little bit closer to home, because it maybe looks like a 'modern' battlefield technique. But I think this proves my point. I think there's a kind of self-deception in locating kendo's "lethality" in a distant past and using this as a defence for its martial origins.

Kenjutsu was in fact employed during the modern era. Many Australian Servicemen (and not just Australians) were beheaded with katana by their Imperial Japanese Army captors during WW2. So iaidoka (and kendoka too, if we practice kata with real swords) are all handling weapons which are facsimilies of ones that were potentially used against their grandparents.

And I have to disagree with you on the second point. Any mid to high grade kendoka (even the ones who don't practice iaido) could wield a sword with lethal effect. Yes kendo's main aim isn't to teach how to cut or kill with a sword, but its techniques (eg tsuki) would be no less effective with a live blade than jukendo's with a live bayonet.

I suppose my disagreement with you is, in short, if jukendo is "offensive", then kendo must be as well.

And my personal position? They both are and are-not "offensive"(!). I haven't totally worked that one out yet...

b

[cklin]

Ben: Thanks for the food for thought. I don't think I've labeled jukendo as "offensive," but it is kind of an extreme oddity... what with the mock-rifles.

The sword (well, actually probably more so the bow/arrow) is historically intertwined w/ bushido, whereas the bayonet has no real modern, philosophical equivalent. I suppose you can argue that there is a "way of the bayonet" but that seems somehow improbable. Without a philosophical basis (this is my assumption -- though I'm sure some will say this is untrue), it's runs more towards pure technique.

As to experienced kendoka being able to do some real damage w/ a shinken, I'm sure they could -- but then they could probably do so with an umbrella as well. :)

Of course, my opinion is rather uninformed seeing as how my only exposure to jukendo is through video clips and pictures in Japanese magazines that I can't read. And so I too have yet to sort all this out...

[Kendoka]

cklin wrote "Kendo on the other hand doesn't really teach you how to strike with a sword, since the physics of a shinai are all sorts of different."

cklin is correct in my humble opinion, Kendo is only a part of Japanese Swordsmanship, Iaido is another part. The 2, if studied together can further the understanding of japanese sword use. Mostly Iai kata are practiced without a physical partner, for the obvious reason.

Put Kendo and Iaido skills together and you get a more rounded swordsperson, then add in some real cutting practice for good measure.


Richard