Kihon Waza Keiko: Is It Necessary?

[mingshi]

Is this the new kata that people are refering to?
What do you think?

From the AJKF site
http://www.kendo.or.jp/jp/order/order_Kihonwaza-keikohou.html

This is the video (20 sec, 3.4 mb)
http://www.kendo.or.jp/jp/order/images/kihonwaza-keikohou.mpg

Sometimes I just think they should stop shooting videos in a Matrix construct! :D

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Jenny,

Sumi sensei was very positive about these forms and spent a large part of the kodokan seminar teaching them. Good enough for me methinks

The video is of the first of 9 forms (with some technical errors ;-)

Reiho is as for kata (three steps in etc etc)

all forms are tsuri ashi - Sumi sensei used insulating tape on the mono uchi (1 fist in from the kissaki) to emphasise cutting distance and it makes it easy to see whan youre wrong


FYI there are 9 forms

1) men, kote, do, tsuki (the one in the video)
2) kote men
3) harai men
4) men, hiki do (some details to watch out for !)
5) men, nuki do
6) kote suriage men
7) kote, de gote
8) men, kaeshi do
9) do, uchi o toshi (sp) men

regards

Phil..

[emitbrownne]

Anything which will help re-enforce the basics in my feeble mind gets a big thumbs up by me.

What are the plans regarding the introduction of these Kata?

[kendokamax]

we had an exam on these kata for one of our kendo class last semester

I thought it was alright,

[Nishi]

Looks good to me as well, although we do similar things anyway with bokken from time to time as drills, it would be helpful to have something like this in stone.

I like it.


"What are the plans regarding the introduction of these Kata?" Said emitbrownne.

[richard haly]

Last April I attended a kendo seminar in Colorado Springs where these kata were introduced. Ota sensei explained their rationale as wanting to emphasize kendo as being based on a sword (indeed) and not being a sport. The idea is that using a bokken/bokuto to perform these kata will expand the sense of these actions when using a shinai.

[JSchmidt]

Are these supposed to replace the current kata?.

Jakob

[kendokamax]

Are these supposed to replace the current kata?.

Jakob

they plan to remplace them for the exams until 2nd or 3rd dan.

[aru-ma]

Hmmm.... I'm not sure I like this new kata, I've got nothing against it though I just prefer the current kata.

[emitbrownne]

they plan to remplace them for the exams until 2nd or 3rd dan.

Replace... oh.. I thought they would be an excellent compliment rather than a replacement. :(

I believe the Kata we do now (I'm currently Ikkyu) help me greatly in understanding the movements of the sword/bokken/shinai, it would be a great shame for the kata to be placed out of reach for begginners like me.

Paulo

[aru-ma]

FYI there are 9 forms

1) men, kote, do, tsuki (the one in the video)
2) kote men
3) harai men
4) men, hiki do (some details to watch out for !)
5) men, nuki do
6) kote suriage men
7) kote, de gote
8) men, kaeshi do
9) do, uchi o toshi (sp) men

regards

Phil..

I'd like to see how each one of them are, particularly number 4 (men-hiki do) I'm really curious how this can work in kata, do the same person cut men THEN hiki do?

[Charlie]

they plan to remplace them for the exams until 2nd or 3rd dan.

Oh, hell, no. I like them but not as a REPLACEMENT.

I'm getting old. I bristle at any attempts to change kendo.

[kendokamax]

They would remplace them mostly for kids. Kids cannot concentrate enough for doing the complicated kata so it is kinda useless for them.

I think thats what our sensei (hachi dan!) was saying about it last time.

[Charlie]

I could see that, and I admire the principle. But by 1-kyu I think one should really start developing one's kata - not by sandan!

[kendokamax]

ya but in japan people get nidan sandan by the age of 18 so.

[Charlie]

Ohhhh! Good point.

[Danny Boy]

they plan to remplace them for the exams until 2nd or 3rd dan.


Where did you get this info from ?
Im asking because unless its from a director of ZNKF...its not true.
According to Sumi sensei these will not become part of gradings for a few years.

[kendokamax]

Where did you get this info from ?
Im asking because unless its from a director of ZNKF...its not true.
According to Sumi sensei these will not become part of gradings for a few years.


Budai kendo club head teacher, Makita Minoru (8th dan). I dont know if he is a director of ZNKF or not, but these guys all know eachothers so I wonder why he would gave false information to his student. But, he also said that it would take a few years.

[Danny Boy]

Budai kendo club head teacher, Makita Minoru (8th dan). I dont know if he is a director of ZNKF or not, but these guys all know eachothers so I wonder why he would gave false information to his student. But, he also said that it would take a few years.

That must be it then.
We talked about the new kata in our club last night, and most of us agreed that if it became part of the gradings it would put too much pressure on the begining kendoka and have the opposite effect than hoped.

[Lefty]

I had the privlidge of meeting Oda 8th dan former head of the Tokyo police kendo club two months ago. He held a seminar covering the chnages the ZNKF has made to the Kedno kata this past year. The kihon kata is used in japan to train everyone in kendo basics. These kinda of kata have been used for centuries. The ZNKF kata train much more complex attacks, receving, and counter. The kihon would never be used in Shinsa since you should already be showing the basics that those kata cover in the keiko portion of the test. I think Minoru sensei was refering to the new ZNKF kendo kata, that it will take a few years for the kata to be properly assimilated int othe all the dodj's that they could begin testing with the new ZNKF kata.

[NorthernKendoka]

Last semester at budai we did those kata one class per week with Ijima-sensei. I think they have some points to them but they get pretty boring when you do them 1,5 hours in a row. The biggest weakness in my oppinion is number 7, kote - debana kote. There is no way that you can get the feeling for debana kote by doing that kata. Even though you take the kata serious ther is no way that you will get the same reaction as when you do debana kote in ji-geiko. Number 4 hiki-do suffers from the same problem but not to the same extent.

As for the question of how number 4 is done, kakarite does shomen uchi, motodashi blocks and you end up in tsubazeriai. Then you just hiki-do your way out of there.

The kihon kata works well to show the basics of kendo but couldn't in any way replace ordinary kata. They could replace doing shinai kihon for kyu grades but kata has qualities that the new kihon kata lacks. That at least my oppinion after doing them for four months. But don't take my word for it, I'm only 1 kyu.

[kendokamax]

The biggest weakness in my oppinion is number 7, kote - debana kote. There is no way that you can get the feeling for debana kote by doing that kata. Even though you take the kata serious ther is no way that you will get the same reaction as when you do debana kote in ji-geiko. Number 4 hiki-do suffers from the same problem but not to the same extent.


I have to disagree with you on this. Debana kote should exactly be hit like that during jigeiko. Just when the person comes towards you and raise their shinai.

[mad_god]

The biggest weakness in my oppinion is number 7, kote - debana kote. There is no way that you can get the feeling for debana kote by doing that kata. Even though you take the kata serious ther is no way that you will get the same reaction as when you do debana kote in ji-geiko. Number 4 hiki-do suffers from the same problem but not to the same extent.

As for the question of how number 4 is done, kakarite does shomen uchi, motodashi blocks and you end up in tsubazeriai. Then you just hiki-do your way out of there.

The kihon kata works well to show the basics of kendo but couldn't in any way replace ordinary kata. They could replace doing shinai kihon for kyu grades but kata has qualities that the new kihon kata lacks. That at least my oppinion after doing them for four months. But don't take my word for it, I'm only 1 kyu.

Doing a lot these katas, soon you'll get your shodan.

[Alex]

They were not designed as a replacement for the Kendo Kata. Hence, they don't even use the word kata in the actual name. They were made as an introduction to the basic kendo techniques, but using the bokuto. They are designed to be close to shinai kendo, but also to serve as a platform for learning the Kendo Kata as well. They are a great addition to kendo teaching materials.

[JoonShik]

I think it should be used for practice only, kinda useless to put it in gradings now. If you think about it, its just to late.

[Will]

I think it should be used for practice only, kinda useless to put it in gradings now. If you think about it, its just to late.

I don't see your point, they change kata all the time.

[Commander]

Where did you get this info from ?
Im asking because unless its from a director of ZNKF...its not true.
According to Sumi sensei these will not become part of gradings for a few years.

Does that mean we're doing it every sunday?