[ai-jodan] Mraz (AUT) vs Herr (GER) [Archive]

Legionario

09-07-2007, 07:02 AM

Looked like it could have been migi-men to me. You can hear some kind of contact too, but the quality is too low to say if it was a men or not (sounds a bit more like two shinai clashing maybe).
I give him the benefit of the doubt.
It was not ippon, as shown here at 00:45: http://youtube.com/watch?v=-nCquKiw3DY, where we see a slow motion replay clearly showing Kawabata slinging his shinai on the side of Seike's men, but that's not what I wanted to debate with this thread. What I am trying to understand here is what are the effects of pushing your opponent to the ground right after he scores an ippon, or so considered by the shinpan. Can I then invalidate the point he scored because of absence of zanshin or else? The example shown in the match Mraz-Herr seems the case. Am I wrong?

nikozamo

09-07-2007, 09:06 AM

i think an absence of zanshin CAN`T invalidate an ippon in this kind of case, because zanshin is really being interrupted and that is not fault of the person how did the ippon

shred_lord

09-07-2007, 10:09 AM

It was not ippon, as shown here at 00:45: http://youtube.com/watch?v=-nCquKiw3DY, where we see a slow motion replay clearly showing Kawabata slinging his shinai on the side of Seike's men,

He went for kote and hit nothing.

Looked like it could have been migi-men to me. You can hear some kind of contact too, but the quality is too low to say if it was a men or not (sounds a bit more like two shinai clashing maybe).

I give him the benefit of the doubt.Yes, in the second video it's obvious that it is not Ippon.

Can I then invalidate the point he scored because of absence of zanshin or else?I have to two thoughts on this,
Purposefully ramming someone over after being scored against purely to nullified the point is, in my opinion, bad Kendo and this should not not count against the attacker.
If an attack is done properly, you should not be able to push them over. If you can, they have sacrificed their Kamae to land the cut.Yes, I know they are semi-contradictory... I never said my opinion was well formed.:D

JSchmidt

09-07-2007, 10:14 AM

It's hard to say without audio, but I suspect that the shinpans weren't convinced that the Austrian guy intended to cut men.
From my limited experience they (shinpans in general) also seem to want the jodan guy to have broken kamae completely before giving a men cut. It seems that sneaking in a cut underneath the shinai is treated a bit like hitting a do where the opponent doesn't really lift his arms.

Legionario

09-07-2007, 10:19 AM

I have to two thoughts on this,

Purposefully ramming someone over after being scored against purely to nullified the point is, in my opinion, bad Kendo and this should not count against the attacker.
I think that everyone may agree here.
Kendo is not wrestling.

If an attack is done properly, you should not be able to push them over. If you can, they have sacrificed their Kamae to land the cut.
This is an interesting consideration which leaves the door open for further discussion.

Thanks, bye.

nikozamo

09-07-2007, 11:11 AM

but this happen after the attack, let say the mix of ki, ken and tai. this was in the zanshin

ahmed61086

09-07-2007, 12:23 PM

The Kawabata-point is a very bad example as he didn't hit anything!.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu06p0Or1P0

In this video, it looked very much, like he hit migi men. Also, why would seike react in such a way, unless he knew he got hit?

ZtefaNNN[K]

09-07-2007, 02:07 PM

In this video it also look a lot like migi men http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1lX0IVglC8

Koki

09-07-2007, 02:44 PM

My two cents: "bad shimpan". That should have been a point.

Kenshi

09-07-2007, 03:05 PM

Seike is basically the top jodan person in Japan (bar, of-course, various illustrious sensei). I see him compete often at v.close range. The guy is strong.. as you would expect from a professional kendoka and someone who has won the All Police champs. Despite the score of that match, he was clearly not defeated. Just like if you look at the score line of the final....

Mistakes are made, and ippons are sometimes awarded dubiously... we all know it happens. I can forgive shinpan for doing this. Shinpans also work as a team... so even if you have 3 competent individual shinpan, sometimes the combination of the 3 does not work. For this match there were indications early on that they werent working well together. In total 3 mistakes were made in a total of that 1 team fight (5 matches) that changed the entire competition. I personally think that this is too much.

In case it matters: the "men," I have on good authority, was not in.

----
( All this chat of the dubious "men" takes away from the 2nd point in that last match, which was exellent. Its a shame that the defining moment of this WKC rests on that single strike. For me - somehow - it has overshadowed Koreas victory, and left a taint on the American win over Japan. )

ahmed61086

09-07-2007, 03:06 PM

My two cents: "bad shimpan". That should have been a point.

Actually, at regular speed, it was extremely hard to tell it was a point. If we all had slowmo vision, than it would have been scored.

Kenshi

09-07-2007, 03:20 PM

Sorry, just a point (I brought this up after the incident but which can be applied to kendo in general...):

- hitting the datosu-bui is only a part of what makes an ippon. Since its only part of the equation, if you exhibit the rest without a correct target strike then can you still call it an ippon? Or does the value of the "hit" by itself outweigh zanshin, fumikomi, stability, etc put together?

I (of course!!!) have an opinion about this... but id like to hear other input.

Kingofmyrrh

09-07-2007, 03:34 PM

Despite the score of that match, he was clearly not defeated.

B-b-b-ollocks! He was totally on the back foot for the second half of that match, AND the second point was the weakness that people had been concerned about previous to the championships. I don't deny that he is an excellent competitor of the highest level, but I doubt that many who watched that match "at v. close range" would share your opinion.

Kenshi

09-07-2007, 03:47 PM

Heh heh. I got the exact opposite comment from other people that were there... I can only base my comments on the video, comments from people that were there (yours actually being amongst most "excited" and "animated" input I got...I remember clearly because you dont usually get that enthused over anything!!!), and chat to one of the two competitors. Of-course, I dont doubt and wont hide my bias!

I already know your thoughts on the WKC, so lets hear your input on the other question!

Fudo-Shin

09-07-2007, 04:18 PM

- hitting the datosu-bui is only a part of what makes an ippon. Since its only part of the equation, if you exhibit the rest without a correct target strike then can you still call it an ippon? Or does the value of the "hit" by itself outweigh zanshin, fumikomi, stability, etc put together?In some cases I think No, If aite moves his head to avoid a GOOD men that is coming his way, his composure is already broken - be it by seme, technique or whatever type of kill (or mix of).

So if the shinai ends up only making contact with say.. the side of his head (below sayumen) but all of the other elements are there for yukodatotsu then I think the point is still deserved. Why should the aite's bad posture spoil a good point?

And sometimes it is just too fast for the shimpan to see anyway, so I guess sometimes they have to give the benefit of the doubt. A good example of this is on the 1984 Senbatsu DVD were Sakuragi Sensei scored his second point (?) on Ono Sensei. The slo-mo clearly shows that it is well below yokomen, but the shimpan awarded it anyway. I used to think that Ono Sensei was robbed, but I asked around about it (my Sensei/Sempai etc) and along with my own development in Kendo I now believe it was a truly deserved point. He broke Ono's composure well and truly. Depends on the case, but I think that the other elements can/should sometimes outweigh a slight miss of the datotsu-bui, if the other elements are un-faultable. :ponder:

But that's just my inexperienced opinion. Nice question, I'm interested to hear what other people think. BTW I didn't watch the other Vids you guys are talking about. My response is purely towards George's question, no Bias.

Fudo-Shin

09-07-2007, 04:23 PM

BTW....that emoticon after the 3rd paragraph should be Ponder, not sticking out it's freaking lil' tongue like I'm making fun of something. It looked different to that when I chose it. So, I'm not trying to be smart.:) That's better.

The great I AM

09-07-2007, 06:36 PM

shred_lord

09-07-2007, 07:51 PM

Good Post Gibbo... must spread rep etc.

Fudo-Shin

09-07-2007, 07:59 PM

One of my pet hates that I really really despise hearing is "it may have missed, but the timing was good so I gave it". No the timing was NOT f-ckng good, because if the timing was good it would have landed on the datotsui bui!Yeah, I hear ya, but it probably would have hit if Aite didn't bend in half and do a backflip to avoid it. Moral of the story is that kakarite didn't do anything wrong, aite did by avoiding it that way,..and so was controlled by kakarite. Hope that makes sense. Besides, some of the taps that get ippon (ie. everything looks to be there but it's just kinda...weak), do you really think they are more worthy?

The great I AM

09-07-2007, 08:33 PM

Yeah, I hear ya, but it probably would have hit if Aite didn't bend in half and do a backflip to avoid it. Moral of the story is that kakarite didn't do anything wrong, aite did by avoiding it that way,..and so was controlled by kakarite. Hope that makes sense. Besides, some of the taps that get ippon (ie. everything looks to be there but it's just kinda...weak), do you really think they are more worthy?I'm sorry to be blunt, but thats bullshit and you know it! Its been said by many various people in many various ways, but if your opponent sees it coming and HAS THE TIME to bend out of the way, then why is that good timing, regardless of how the cheeky beggar dodged it? Its such good timing that the other guy read it and ducked out of the way? Pu-leeeeeeease. You know as well as I do that if the timing was good then matey boy doing the limbo dancing would not have had the opportunity to bend out of the way. And if you keep insisting on the timing being good, then fine, but there is obviously something else wrong with it to allow the guy to dodge it.

And I don't think that a weak strike should be ippon either. I believe part of the magic rule book that states what ippon in shiai should contain is a strong hit.

shred_lord

09-07-2007, 08:41 PM

If kakarites cut is blocked negatively (i.e. without counter-attack) do you think it's still ippon?

At least a tap makes contact, but generally they are as unworthy to my mind as dodged and blocked cut, though here, it does depend on the level of the kendoka. An Ikkyu should get a tap, a Sandan probably shouldn't.

This debate is almost the opposite of the whole, if it was a real sword... thing.

""It would have Killed him if it was a real Sword - So it should score"
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^
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KENDO
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V
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"I did every thing right except take into account what my opponent might do - So it should score"

Fudo-Shin

09-07-2007, 08:48 PM

I'm sensing that this is a subject that you are VERY passionate about Gibbo :). Anyway, I've put my thoughts forward.

Fudo-Shin

09-07-2007, 08:50 PM

The great I AM

09-07-2007, 08:52 PM

I'm sensing that this is a subject that you are VERY passionate about Gibbo :). Anyway, I've put my thoughts forward.That is very true.....

shred_lord

09-07-2007, 09:02 PM

It's Kendo, not Shinken shoubu...big difference.
I don't get your point, I never said kendo is shinken shobu.

""It would have Killed him if it was a real Sword - So it should score" This would be shinken shobu
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^
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KENDO This is Kendo (i.e. It would have killed/disabled him AND was on a valid target)
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V
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"I did every thing right except take into account what my opponent might do - So it should score" This is some art where the act of cutting is symbolic to the point that it doesn't really matter if the cut lands!

You haven't answered this.
If kakarites cut is blocked negatively (i.e. without counter-attack) do you think it's still ippon?

Kenshi

09-07-2007, 09:18 PM

Guys, more comments please.

And dont be scared of taking a different view from Gibbo!

Fudo-Shin

09-07-2007, 09:29 PM

No. Sorry if I was blunt in my last post.

If aite is hit on the men-futon because he dodged his head I don't think that would be even close to ippon either. There seems to be varying degrees of missing the datotsu-bui in regards to yoko men. Where each Shimpan draws the line is up to them. I was more reffering to the example I mentioned about 1982 All Japan Senbatsu. It would be great if we could all view that, then pick up this debate again (perhaps in a different thread). It's a perfect example, so it DOES get awarded at the elite level.

Don't get me wrong, I dodge my head too, I think we all do to some degree, for good reason. That's not what I am debating. All I'm saying is that the connection between shinai and datotsu-bui is a small part of yuko-datotsu and probably gets over rated in terms of "dominating" your opponent. I think the other aspects are more important than the shinai's point of contact.

Anyway, it's late here for me (early starter), I'll tune in tomorrow. It's a good debate that George set up, I wonder what he thinks?

Fudo-Shin

09-07-2007, 09:30 PM

Ah, speak of the devil.

The great I AM

09-07-2007, 09:33 PM

Don't get me wrong, I dodge my head too, I think we all do to some degree, for good reason. That's not what I am debating. All I'm saying is that the connection between shinai and datotsu-bui is a small part of yuko-datotsu and probably gets over rated in terms of "dominating" your opponent. I think the other aspects are more important than the shinai's point of contact.So if everything else was spot on, but the guy hit someones neck doing men, or upper arm doing kote, would you be confident to use the above to justify raising your flag?

Fudo-Shin

09-07-2007, 09:41 PM

So if everything else was spot on, but the guy hit someones neck doing men, or upper arm doing kote, would you be confident to use the above to justify raising your flag?No no no,...I'm talking much closer, like think ear or cheek for men (in that example I mentioned). It's technically not the datotsu-bui. But with kote, it's all about the sound IMO. You can never really even see where it hit anyway, you just hear the sound, Right?? And these are not neccesarily rules of thumb, depends on the situation. I believe that there are worthy exceptions depending on the situation.

I might boil the kettle.:)

Fudo-Shin

09-07-2007, 09:46 PM

Ha ha, I just thought of a good analogy,

Imagine if they didn't let Doogie Howser into Med-School because he didn't meet the "criteria". Now there's a worthy exception.... (said in a very sarcastic drawl).

I really should get some sleep.

The great I AM

09-07-2007, 09:56 PM

No no no,...I'm talking much closer, like think ear or cheek for men (in that example I mentioned). It's technically not the datotsu-bui. But with kote, it's all about the sound IMO. You can never really even see where it hit anyway, you just hear the sound, Right?? And these are not neccesarily rules of thumb, depends on the situation. I believe that there are worthy exceptions depending on the situation.

I might boil the kettle.:)
You'll have to forgive me here because I can't be arsed looking up the rules, but one of the things hammered in by Taguchi sensei and Murakami sensei at the last refereeing seminar was that, if I remember right, the rules state that the monouchi should make contact with the datotsu bui. It makes no mention AT ALL about sound. And if you can never see what its hitting then what are you actually watching? Can you really attempt to justify knowingly refereeing outside the rules.

And even so, knowingly giving leeway on weather or not a strike actually hits the datotsubui is just plain wrong as well.

Accepting or acknowledging such a strike is fine in jigeiko, because it teaches you, but in a shiai that you might have spent months training rigourosly for, and mentally and physically given everything to, I can, with great experience myself in this matter, say that it means nothing but utter disappointment for both of the guys involved. I personally train to fight within the rules of the competition, so to think that refs might give a little bit of leeway because "with kote, it's all about the sound" is just unacceptable to me.

Oh, and ear and cheek ok for men...........really, what? Come on.

Kenshi

09-07-2007, 09:56 PM

Ah, speak of the devil.

I have lots of opinions and stuff on this, and they directly relate to the WKC13-incident.

Ive been reading, but not commenting deliberately as I am keen to hear people opinions. I already know what and why Gibbo thinks as he does (and why Gareth agrees with him) so Id like to hear some other thoughts on the matter.

Whether you (this is a general statment aimed at everyone) are an active competitor (like Gibbo) or not doesnt matter... what constitutes an "ippon" is at the heart of what we are practising on a day-in-day-out basis. If people have no opinion on the matter then..... thats odd.

I dont think you (Fudo-) are boiling a kettle at all, btw.

D'Artagnan

09-07-2007, 10:16 PM

My opinion -

WKC thing - Men was not ippon, but the kote was, match should have ended 1-0

Pushing over after ippon- If you score valid ippon but your opponent pushes you over then, its still definately ippon. there is a moment after cuttin that EVERYONE can be pushed over (especially by someone bigger or stronger). This happens loads in the All Japans - especially after kaeshi-dou

Datotsu-bui thing - what Gibbo said. Sound means jack all ESPECIALLY with kote, I've been awarded kote loads of times because it 'sounded good' even when i whack 'em on the fists...

Dodging - Again what Gibbo said, if your too slow, its not ippon...

kartoffelngeist

09-07-2007, 10:49 PM

In my limited experience, what Andy said...

Paburo

09-07-2007, 10:57 PM

I don't actually think fumikomi in and of itself is considered essential to ippon, but forgetting that for a minute, my opinion is no no no. As far as I'm concerned they should be essential ingrediants in your ippon-cake (ooooh, look at me with analogies!) and if one is missing for whatever reason I don't think it should be considered ippon. You would not expect to score without kiai, so why should you expect it without hitting the correct area. Kendo is and has been done that way for ages, and the rules of shiai were built up around this and should reflect that.

One of my pet hates that I really really despise hearing is "it may have missed, but the timing was good so I gave it". No the timing was NOT f-ckng good, because if the timing was good it would have landed on the datotsui bui!

that's true... BUT OTOH, i think one of the hardests parts of being shinpan at the top level competition (see AJKC, WKC, EKC, etc) is being able to see that bloody shinai landing on the datotsu bui given the fast speeds. i could understand shinpan not making mistakes if they had x-ray vision and bullet-time 360º slow motion button equipped flags.

anybody who has gone underneath a couple shiai will know that even though your cut (unnoticeable at first sight) was missed by an inch or two, IF the rest of the 'cake-ingredients'(if you may) are good, then you might get the ippon. these type of human eye-reaction/sight-speed mistakes are seen on all high-level taikai too.

it's unfortunate what happened to seike(and to eiga once, and to... the list goes on and on). one of this human mistakes materialised on his match. at any rate, it's easy saying it landed in or out, or this and that was ippon or not in slow motion video and diff angles. judging LIVE on the spot without replay or zoom is a whole different thing my friend... according to ppl who were sitting on that floor and shimpan, at first impression it WAS ippon. maybe later when shimpan watched the clip in slow motion several times from different angles they realised they made a mistake there. but in that very moment, it seemed to them like valid ippon and raised their flag accordingly. human mistakes are part of shimpaning, sometimes they work on your favour and sometimes they work against. i think part of kendo and shiai is accepting it, and getting over it.

now about this video of the ai-jodan's @ the EKC... i think the men was crappy from the looks of it. only one shimpan raised the flag, so it doesnt really matters if he fell to the floor afterwards or not. he wasn't gonna get it anyway...

if you ask me if an ippon should be nullified because your opponent pushes you in bullying attempt to kill your zanshin and you end up on the floor, i'd say no. i've seen it a couple of times. once in first person... i got kote and right after the shimpan raised their flags the dude pushed me and i was sent flying on my back. it was dubbed the infamous matrix kote®, lol.

cheers.

The great I AM

09-07-2007, 11:15 PM

Pablo,thats all well and good, but what I have a problem with is people justifying it as ok, and even arguing that giving that leeway is ok.

I'm not disputing that reffing is a hard job, I know that it is and I have plenty of respect for anyone who is prepared to put themselves up for what at times can inevitably be a one ticket to criticism, and I know that everybody at what ever level makes mistakes, even massive glaring ones. This has happened for years and will continue to, but what I do have a problem with is accepting it as ok, and even trying to give reasons why some may think that giving ippon of the cheek or elbow is fine, which to me, as someone who at the moment trains his nuts off around shiai time, is just not right. Its insulting to the effort that I put in to think that people would be lax enough in refereeing to allow something in if it missed the datotsubui and they weren't sure about it.

Ignatz

09-07-2007, 11:53 PM

For what it is worth, when I started kendo back in the last century I was told tht if the flags go up it is ippon if they don't it is not.

There is no appeal, no instant replay and certainly no crying.

It's a Japanese thing.

This is not to say that some judges are not better than others or that some are not simply biased.

rainmaker

09-07-2007, 11:57 PM

If you turn up the volume, you can hear that Austrian guy yelling for Kote, instead of Men... He accidently hit Men... Turn up the volume...

I would like to compare this match with another, more famous one.

Just take a look at the ippon awarded at 1:45 of the following match:

Seike (JAP) vs Kawabata (USA)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=b1lX0IVglC8

And then take a look at the ippon not awarded at 1:45 of this another match:

Mraz (AUT) vs Herr (GER)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzlqbySJG8k

We have two situations that are very similar, in both cases the kenshi scoring the ippon is hurled to the ground right after scoring. In the first case the ippon is awarded, in the second case it is not.

What is the difference between the two cases?

JSchmidt

10-07-2007, 12:05 AM

For what it is worth, when I started kendo back in the last century

Well, you are not the only one here who started kendo in the last century. This however, shouldn't stop us from talking about refereeing and how to learn from it/improve it.

Just clamming up (it's a Japanese thing) wont teach us much.

I do however agree that on the shiai-jo you should accept whatever the result is. (And then bitch about it to your mates afterwards).

AlexM

10-07-2007, 02:08 AM

Another interesting thread.

I can't really add much to the debate thus far other than to add that datotsubui, datotsubu and zanshin are non-negotiable in terms of landing ippon. However, whether or not someone is dogging their head around (and to what degree) will probably influence the shimpan in some way: It can get pretty ugly sometimes so maybe it makes the "negotiables" of ippon (namely the strength of the hit) different. I'm not sure I'm expressing this properly.

However, if you find you lose often because of the shimpan... the shimpan are probably not the problem.

Andy, I think sound is a major component of judging. Too many times have I seen kote scored where there was clearly a clanging sound and not a clean, crisp pop to indicate a good snap. That's one of the reasons judging from video is inadequate: The sound gets distorted.

George, please elaborate what you mean by the shimpan having to work as a team. I know they have to move together but what do you think it implies beyond that?

Koki

10-07-2007, 02:46 AM

About the ai-jodan match: If the Austrian guy did yell kote, I take back my earlier comments. Shimpan were right. That should not have been a point.

About Kawabata's match: It's a point. He hit the men with good kiai and zanshin. He didn't yell "kote" either. If I were doing shimpan from the angle of the videos, I would have raised my flag.

About the sound factor: At shimpan seminars, many sensei have told me to pay attention to the sound also, beside all the other factors. Kote may look good, but it's possible that he hit the tsuba, not the kote.

About shimpan's mistake in Eiga's match: He didn’t even say anything about shimpan mistake. Instead he took a positive attitude and thought about what he did wrong and trained hard to improve himself. Why do we keep dwelling on one point or one match? Move on. Train harder, so next time you can beat the guy with a beautiful point that no one can deny.

Finally, we just had a shimpan seminar with Ota and Satoh sensei on Saturday. Satoh sensei always emphasized that shimpan have to be fair. However, once you got two flags up, that's the point, no matter what the story is. Shimpan are also human. Of course, they make mistake. The only way to get better is to practice in both shai and shimpan.

D'Artagnan

10-07-2007, 04:41 AM

About Kawabata's match: It's a point. He hit the men ...

err, I don't believe he did...

About the sound factor: At shimpan seminars, many sensei have told me to pay attention to the sound also, beside all the other factors. .

OK this I agree with, my first post was a little confusing actually now I read it back... What I meant is that Ippon cannot be judged by sound alone. For example, not all good kote ippon sound the same, and sometimes this can be annoying when shinpans are listening for just one type of sound...

Ignatz

10-07-2007, 05:13 AM

. . . this can be annoying when shinpans are listening for just one type of sound...

Instead of watching.

pgsmith

10-07-2007, 05:39 AM

While all of this is interesting to argue about over beer, in the end it's irrelevant really. To my understanding, the purpose of kendo and all the practice you guys do is to improve your kendo, not your shimpan's refereeing skills. If your kendo is good enough, you don't get shimpan to give you ippon, you force shimpan to acknowledge your ippon.

One outsider's opinion. :D

nikozamo

10-07-2007, 05:56 AM

totally agree with that, but i think by now is not complete the discussion about what happen when the attacker is taked down by the oponent in the moment of ippon

ahmed61086

10-07-2007, 06:05 AM

..................

ahmed61086

10-07-2007, 06:06 AM

totally agree with that, but i think by now is not complete the discussion about what happen when the attacker is taked down by the oponent in the moment of ippon

I remember a sensei telling me, that after you killed the person, would he be able to push you to the floor? Or something like that.

Basically, I could ruin anybodys zanshin by tackling them to floor, but its just a lot easier to do it after someone scores men on you. But you are still dead.

nikozamo

10-07-2007, 06:46 AM

well i just said it, becuase this doesn`t happens all the time... is not a everyday situation... and actually can be because you must not stop fighting until the shinpan say the oponent ippon is valid. because you cant see the shinpans flags

Kingofmyrrh

10-07-2007, 07:56 AM

There is no appeal, no instant replay and certainly no crying.

It's a Japanese thing.

Sorry, but this time I think you are very wide of the mark. Japanese people bitch about bad ippon ALL the time, there are magazine articles and internet debates. They just wouldn't say it to anyone's face. I think there's little difference in attitudes here.

Ignatz

10-07-2007, 08:19 AM

Sorry, but this time I think you are very wide of the mark. Japanese people bitch about bad ippon ALL the time, there are magazine articles and internet debates. They just wouldn't say it to anyone's face. I think there's little difference in attitudes here.

I stand corrected, they are still monday morning quarterbacking Segikahara.

But there is still no appeal and no crying unless they get drunk.

runsyi

10-07-2007, 08:50 AM

George, please elaborate what you mean by the shimpan having to work as a team. I know they have to move together but what do you think it implies beyond that?

I'm not George, but I've been told that sometimes you look to the other shimpan to give you a clue. Say if you're the shimpan that can't see the kote... you would look for posture, kime, zanshin, etc., as well as seeing what the shimpan that can see the kote does. Same with jogai, you may not have seen the competitor step out, but if the shimpan next to the line indicates it, then you indicate hansoku instead of saying, "I didn't see," which I've been told is a bad thing. Of course this is all regurgitated information.

ben

10-07-2007, 08:56 AM

This is all very interesting discussion. The level and skill of shinpan around the world really does need to be lifted, and this refers to a pretty small bunch of people when you think about it. I think I might start another thread.

Personally, when it comes to the WKC 'controversy', I find I can't be arsed even clicking on the link to watch the match. I'm not sure why. I know I'm supposed to be enthralled by the outcome and its implications...

b

Kenshi

10-07-2007, 12:28 PM

Its not the controversy thats really interesting, but the fact that it highlights some things that people havent really discussed/thought about.

George, please elaborate what you mean by the shimpan having to work as a team. I know they have to move together but what do you think it implies beyond that?

Its often the case that shinpan cannot see clearly aspects of a strike, including the hitting of the datotsu-bui. There can be various reasons for this including speed, funny body bending, blinking, having an itchy nose, tiredness, whatever. Therefore, you rely on not just whats going on in front of you, but also the reactions of the other judges. There is a lot of implicit trust going on.

Here is the crux of the matter: if another shinpan signals a point, you must decide in an instant whether it was ok or not. Even if you didnt see it hit the target you must decide.

Perhaps you are at an odd angle to see the degote but you like the kagekoe, the body movement, and you heard the infamous sound... you are not sure but the shinpan - with perhaps a clearer view - raises his flag...

WKC Judges --> I think if you want to become one it shouldnt just be based on your grade, but on your competition background, and perhaps be backed up with competition refereeing in places like Korea and Japan where the top level competitors are. of course, this is logistically and economically impossible. If FIK allows them to judge the WKC, then surely they wouldnt object to letting them judge the Senshuken taikai??? You might say that this comment is irrelevant/stupid, but if the final is Japan Vs Korea it isnt.

As competitors --> you have to trust the shinpan. If you cant trust the shinpan, then it questions the whole process.

About Kawabata's match: It's a point. He hit the men with good kiai and zanshin. He didn't yell "kote" either. If I were doing shimpan from the angle of the videos, I would have raised my flag.
....
However, once you got two flags up, that's the point, no matter what the story is. Shimpan are also human. Of course, they make mistake. The only way to get better is to practice in both shai and shimpan.

Its a point because it was given by the shinpan. I would like to hear Kawabatas honest opinion on the matter. He probably at least reads this forum from time-to-time. He - at least once - posted on the most popular Japanese forum... in a very polite and almost apologetic tone. Maybe he is more bothered about his standing in the Japanese kendo community than the English speaking one... who knows.

I know it was an ippon because the judges gave it, and that - despite what many people may think - pretty much satisfies me. What I wonder about is that there was more than one obvious error that was made in that team fight, each one controversial in there own right.

I lost a match to degote (aka debana-arm) on Sunday. A 8 dan later came up to me and said "nice men. Shame they gave the kote, but that happens sometimes. Next time, maybe you will get the men." Of-course, this mistake was really no big deal... its not as if it possibly altered the outcome of the entire shiai.

I'm not George

Trust me, you are better of being a girl than a boy.

AlexM

10-07-2007, 12:47 PM

I'm not George, but I've been told that sometimes you look to the other shimpan to give you a clue. Say if you're the shimpan that can't see the kote... you would look for posture, kime, zanshin, etc., as well as seeing what the shimpan that can see the kote does. Same with jogai, you may not have seen the competitor step out, but if the shimpan next to the line indicates it, then you indicate hansoku instead of saying, "I didn't see," which I've been told is a bad thing. Of course this is all regurgitated information.

Hmmmm, I hope that's not what he meant in fact. If you're a shimpan and you can't see the kote you position yourself accordingly. Although one judge always has a slightly better angle even under ideal conditions I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be taking a cue from someone else. The worse shimpan are the ones that always wait for someone else (a senior) to raise his flag first. You can always spot that shimpan and it becomes obvious that one guy's flag actually counts for two.

As for jogai, I don't think what you're referring to is teamwork: it's just the shimpan closest to the line that signals the foul first because he'll probably see it and notice it first (he might also be informally responsible for one side of the shiaijo, but don't quote me on that). I've never seen a shimpan use the "renounce to judge" signal on hansoku: I think that is only used with regards to ippon.

I think people should judge as individuals and simply maintain a certain level of cohesiveness between themselves (signaling at the right time, keeping the triangle properly positioned in order to make sure all three judges have a good viewing angle, etc.)

(Edit: I wrote this before George's post and am too tired to do a re-write)

Neil Gendzwill

10-07-2007, 01:11 PM

If you're a shimpan and you can't see the kote you position yourself accordingly.Not always possible and if you are doing it right there's always at least one guy can't see the kote completely. Consider the start of the match, presumably the most ideal positioning. We're in the triangle according to the canon of shimpaning and aka attacks kote off the hajime. Only shushin is in a position to see it clearly, the other two poor slobs get a blocked view because it's on the other side. They have to go by all the other clues, especially sound, and sometimes those knuckle shots get through.

As far as I'm concerned, at any decent level it has to all be there. I don't give senior people the point on 2/3 criterion. But definitely for mudansha or lower dan I'll forgive a hit that's a little light or zanshin that's not fully realized if the rest of the point looks right. We'll be there all damn night if you don't.

FWIW yesterday at our little club tournament I lost the final on a men point that was light and off-centre although nowhere near the ear - it was still on the datosubu but the hasuji was a little wrong. My opponent didn't think it was in either. But it was encho, he caught me flat-footed, the timing was beautiful and we had some beers to get to, so I wasn't bitter at all about the point.

Koki

10-07-2007, 02:40 PM

Alex, actually at the kendo camp this weekend in San Jose, Satoh sensei emphasized strongly that shimpan should work as a team. He said even if you disagree with the decision but two flags are already up, you should also raise up your flag. Not raising your flag in that case couldn't change anything, it only signals to the audience that shimpan couldn't work together. If one flag is up and one flag is down, the decision then comes to you.

Also in the case of hansoku, the closest judge is not the one who makes the decision. Here again, you need at least two flags. If one judge raises the flag, but the other two don't agree, there should be gogi. Funny, we actually had a case like that during our shiai practice. One judge actually raised the flag before the senshu stepped outside, the other two didn't agree, so no hansoku was given.

Since we are on the topic of shimpan. I have a question. How do you judge hiki-waza? What criteria do you consider?

Right now, the way I understand it is beside having the usual elements of an ippon, we also need to consider whether aite has lost his composure or whether there is any movements, seme to create an opening. What do you guys think?

Fudo-Shin

10-07-2007, 04:16 PM

I'm not disputing that reffing is a hard job, I know that it is and I have plenty of respect for anyone who is prepared to put themselves up for what at times can inevitably be a one ticket to criticism, and I know that everybody at what ever level makes mistakes, even massive glaring ones. This has happened for years and will continue to, but what I do have a problem with is accepting it as ok, and even trying to give reasons why some may think that giving ippon of the cheek or elbow is fine, which to me, as someone who at the moment trains his nuts off around shiai time, is just not right. Its insulting to the effort that I put in to think that people would be lax enough in refereeing to allow something in if it missed the datotsubui and they weren't sure about it.I never said anything about elbows... What I had mentioned was in a post shiai context (ie watching from a Video) as, obviously the shimpan can't hit action replay at the time. If it's glaringly obvious that it missed at the time, then IMO it's not worth ippon at all. But as you know, sometimes it is just too fast to be 100% sure at the time. When I watch it back on Slo-Motion and can see that it didn't reach datotsu bui when the shimpan, and most of the audience, were convinced that it did, I think the point was still deserved. Even if it could be detracted (ala' Kendo Olympics Technology), I don't think it should be, because the TV screen doesn't always reveal what happened. Sorry if I wasn't making sense.

Fudo-Shin

10-07-2007, 04:19 PM

I dont think you (Fudo-) are boiling a kettle at all, btw.Your right, I went to sleep instead.

Paburo

10-07-2007, 07:44 PM

Its often the case that shinpan cannot see clearly aspects of a strike, including the hitting of the datotsu-bui. There can be various reasons for this including speed, funny body bending, blinking, having an itchy nose, tiredness, whatever. Therefore, you rely on not just whats going on in front of you, but also the reactions of the other judges. There is a lot of implicit trust going on.

Here is the crux of the matter: if another shinpan signals a point, you must decide in an instant whether it was ok or not. Even if you didnt see it hit the target you must decide.

Perhaps you are at an odd angle to see the degote but you like the kagekoe, the body movement, and you heard the infamous sound... you are not sure but the shinpan - with perhaps a clearer view - raises his flag...

...this explanation of teamwork is basically what the sensei told us on the last shinpan-in seminar course i attended (which was directed by a spanish nanadan sensei who is also a very regular WKC/EKC shinpan).

Halcyon

10-07-2007, 10:16 PM

Alex, actually at the kendo camp this weekend in San Jose, Satoh sensei emphasized strongly that shimpan should work as a team. He said even if you disagree with the decision but two flags are already up, you should also raise up your flag. Not raising your flag in that case couldn't change anything, it only signals to the audience that shimpan couldn't work together. If one flag is up and one flag is down, the decision then comes to you.
Hmm. Are you sure you heard correctly? Yes, the judges should work as a team, but I've never heard any sensei say that you should raise your flag just because the other two flags are up. If you truly disagree, then you should express your disagreement by criss-crossing the flags rapidly in front of you.

Now, if you truly couldn't see the point (for example, because it was an awkward angle) then you can hold your flags crossed in front of you. But this is something that's frowned upon because it indicates that you were either not diligent enough about maintaining a good viewing angle or that you weren't paying attention.

Kenshi

10-07-2007, 10:41 PM

I agree with Paul..... the "raising your flag just to agree" thing is very odd.

shred_lord

11-07-2007, 12:35 AM

I've seen too many matches where at least one of the shinpan will pay more attention to a particular shinpan (usually one generally recognised as very good) than to the match, or will look at that shinpan for confirmation before raising his own flag. I've even see shinpan start to wave their flags to deny a point, then follow the lead of another shinpan while the third doesn't react, thus giving ippon based upon one man's decision.

I think that a shinpan should be strong and only score what they know is ippon, and if they know something isn't ippon they shouldn't change their mind.

JSchmidt

11-07-2007, 12:46 AM

I agree with Paul..... the "raising your flag just to agree" thing is very odd.

I agree. I'd rather have a shinpan saying that he didn't see, rather than giving something that he didn't see/hear.

AlexM

11-07-2007, 01:42 AM

I disagree with Satoh sensei in that case. If someone else raises a flag and I don't think it's a point I indicate it as such: Even if the point is awarded by the other two shimpan. I should point out that I saw alot of what you describe at the recent University of Toronto tournament: One shimpan would disagree with the decision but at the end, once the point was awarded by the other two shimpan he would raise his flag as well. Maybe there have been new directives issued recently but the CKF never holds shimpan seminars so we're kind of in the dark. Also, I don't believe eithe the judges or the participants should be concerned with the audience or spectators: Kendo is not judo, I don't care if no one else understands what's going on.

So far, the "teamwork" people are describing sounds closer to following along with the other judges rather than taking a decision on your own: which is precisely what I don't like about some shimpan.

One last thing, there is a rarely a "perfect" angle to see ippon during a match, but you don't need perfection so much as just a good view: We all judge alot based on body language in addition to everything else. I don't think that requires taking cues from the other judges, it's an individual decision (as long as you know what's going on).

One thing judges MUST watch out for is to take a decision if someone else does raise a flag (and that does in a sens imply teamwork). At my club when we judge matches and someone doesn't signal either ippon, no-ippon or "no joy" after someone else does, we stop the match, call gogi and ask: "Well, did you see it or were you just daydreaming?"

Neil Gendzwill

11-07-2007, 01:42 AM

+1 on being your own man. If you disagree, then disagree. I've never heard anything different.

On the not seeing it thing - even if I have a bad angle, I should have enough clues to decide if it might have been a point or not. I can see if there was an opportunity, I can see the body positioning, I can hear the song. If everything is in place but I couldn't see the contact clearly, I probably won't raise a flag on my own initiative. But if a judge with a better position raises his flag, I would raise my own flag in support. If I don't have enough information to make a decision, I'll disagree - if you couldn't convince me of the point separate of the actual contact, then it's probably not another point.

One shimpan would disagree with the decision but at the end, once the point was awarded by the other two shimpan he would raise his flag as well.
We've usually do a shimpan session at our seminar and the advice I've gotten from every sensei that has run these (Kamata, Kimura, Tsumura, etc) is that the only time you switch is if you are shushin (because you must indicate the final decision). If you are fukushin, stick to your guns.

Koki

11-07-2007, 02:12 AM

Satoh sensei main point was not to follow the other judges but to make your own decision. However, if two flags are already up and you haven't raised your flag, "it would be nice that you also raise the flag" (quoting the interpretator). Not raising the flag at that point would not change anything. A point is already awarded. However, if there is only one flag up, do what you think you see. Mind you, this is not the case in which you make the decision at the same time as the other two judges. If you waive your flag in disagreement already, you should not change it.

A lot of us was surprised too, so we did ask him twice to clarify it.

Neil Gendzwill

11-07-2007, 02:23 AM

Suppose it's a point that either party could have won (ai-men, kote-suriagi-men) but you didn't think either point was there. So then what happens if one of those two judges decides he's raised the wrong flag and switches? Now you're awarding a point you disagreed with.

Furthermore, I despise judges who play follow the leader, always looking to the senior man for the cue. Make your own damn decision.

I have to respectfully disagree with Satoh-sensei.

Halcyon

11-07-2007, 03:12 AM

Furthermore, I despise judges who play follow the leader, always looking to the senior man for the cue.
Here, here! This really creates a problem for the other judges, too, especially when the follow-the-leader judge has a markedly delayed call. In particular, it's a big problem for the shushin in fast-moving high-school/college matches where the kids like to do multiple renzoku waza. You need to be able to determine quickly which strike the flags went up for. If you've got one judge with a delayed reaction, it's a real headache for the shushin.

Koki

11-07-2007, 03:42 AM

I think these are more like guidelines. They do not cover every situations, and of course, they are definitely not in the rules book. Being a good shimpan means being flexible in interpret the rules and determine which the fairest course of action is. We had a lot of questions during the seminar, and Satoh sensei's first sentence was usually "Is it fair?".

In the case that Neil talked about, I think "gogi" would be the appropriate next call.

It is easy for you to say that you have to react instantly. I don't know about you but so far I have only seen less than 10 sensei in the US who have that kind of ability. Koike sensei and Hori sensei are examples. It is an ideal that we strive to achieve.

Also there were two points that Satoh sensei talked about that I really appreciate:

1) To be a good shimpan, you must also have shiai experiences.

2) You cannot judge people at a higher level kendo than you because you don't understand what they are doing.

And of course, the problem with that is I have seen a lot of shimpan in the US who do not know how to judge dou, hiki-waza or tsuki because they couldn't do it properly, let alone the more complicated one like derasiga men. I got robbed several times because the judges think it was ai-men, but according to Hori sensei, there is no ai-men. Someone always hits first.

Kenshi

11-07-2007, 09:27 AM

I think we must realise that this "agree" thing is probably just one mans opinion.. and there is no harm in it.

2) You cannot judge people at a higher level kendo than you because you don't understand what they are doing.

This is a very interesting point, and a dangerous one to make. I agree to an extent... but not a large one.

Who could judge a Japan Vs Korea final at the WKC? Outside those 2 countries, where would you find shinpan that do a higher level of kendo?

p.s. Seikes gyaku-do in that final match was stunning. Not even a twitch from the shinpan. In that entire WKC, I hear, there was not a single gyaku-do scored....

Ignatz

11-07-2007, 10:10 AM

. . .p.s. Seikes gyaku-do in that final match was stunning. Not even a twitch from the shinpan. In that entire WKC, I hear, there was not a single gyaku-do scored....

Why do you suppose that was?

Kenshi

11-07-2007, 01:00 PM

Why do you suppose that was?

No idea.

Maybe:

1. FIK assembled the shinpan before the shiai and said "no gyaku-do please."

2. The 3 shinpan just have a (very subjective and unreasonable) disliking for gyaku-do.

3. They all blinked at the same time and at the exact point the gyaku-do was stuck.

The decision not to award the gyaku-do was - for me personally - worse than the "men" one.

Saying this, there are plenty of sensei in Japan too that seem to be against gyaku-do for various reasons... the rationale either being a) "Because thats the way I learned" or b) "dont bother with that until you can do men properly." a) is irrational and b) is a nice idea, but then why bother with anything other than men?

EDIT: Id like to hear other peoples ideas about why this particular gyaku-do wasnt awarded.

kendokamax

11-07-2007, 01:40 PM

EDIT: Id like to hear other peoples ideas about why this particular gyaku-do wasnt awarded.

I personaly think that Seikei lost a bit his composure after the do. Even thought the timing and the strengh of the strike was amazing. It seems that he didnt believe that much in his own strike.
But the same thing with the final kote from kuwabata. He lost his composure and it was kinda ugly. One of his kote just before that seemed better.

BTW One thing I did not like about the kendo jidai magazine articles covering the championship was that all ippon that Japan had scored would be qualified as beautifull, marvelous etc. But then when it was an other team getting an ippon on them it would be "america guy went for men ....and 3 flags got up". You would never see such a comment for the Japanese team or even in the All Japan championship (even thought there is a lot of crappy point given). I think its kinda rude for the shinpan and to the other players.
I hope one day people in Japan will treat a bit more the people doing kendo around the world as equal, especialy the japanese who suck at it, haha.

Kenshi

11-07-2007, 02:36 PM

I hope one day people in Japan will treat a bit more the people doing kendo around the world as equal, especialy the japanese who suck at it, haha.

I cant comment on the kendo mag articles, but all I can say is that ive never had anything but respect (99.6%) from the Japanese kenshi that I face on a day-to-day basis... in fact, I would say the better at kendo and the more love of kendo that they have the more respect I recieve... and not only do I count some All-Japan level kenshi as occasional keiko partners but I, my friend, suck at kendo pretty hard.

I wouldnt base an entire nations kendo communities opinion on what a couple of journalists wrote in a couple of magazines. Its not as if the japanese kendo community voted them in like, say, Americans did Bush.

Kenshi

11-07-2007, 02:44 PM

Id also like to point out that what I wrote above goes for the other countries ive done a decent amount of kendo in - The UK and the USA as well as Japan - and the countries ive visited and done kendo in - Ireland, Finland, Germany, France, Belgium, Switzerland, Italy, China.... probably missing somewhere!

kendokamax

11-07-2007, 03:01 PM

Sorry respect was not the approprieted word.

I too had the occasion to receive a lot from japanese kendo player in Japan. One of my teacher is an ancient Team Japan member and I had trouble understanding why he would do so much for me.

What I meant was the way that some japanese make you feel that since you are a foreigner you cannot understand kendo or be good at it. But its true,real good players or people that really like kendo will more than often treat you as an equal (as a kenshi).

Sakari

11-07-2007, 03:42 PM

p.s. Seikes gyaku-do in that final match was stunning. Not even a twitch from the shinpan. In that entire WKC, I hear, there was not a single gyaku-do scored....

At least one gyaku-do was given in the tournament so I don't think that the judges were instructed to disregard it or even to keep high standards on it.

Kenshi

11-07-2007, 04:28 PM

At least one gyaku-do was given in the tournament so I don't think that the judges were instructed to disregard it or even to keep high standards on it.

I stand corrected. My point about the judges being given instruction was that it was - obviously - an unthinkable action.

I scored a gyaku-do (not even close to the caliber of Seikes) at the prior WKC.

What I meant was the way that some japanese make you feel that since you are a foreigner you cannot understand kendo or be good at it.

The same people also think that you - as a non-Japanese person - cannot use chopsticks nor eat raw fish. I tend to ignore them or smile knowingly.

The great I AM

11-07-2007, 07:31 PM

p.s. Seikes gyaku-do in that final match was stunning. Not even a twitch from the shinpan. In that entire WKC, I hear, there was not a single gyaku-do scored....The only thing I could think of was that they were gyaku dou-haters, because I've seen worse scored in all sorts of competitions, upto and including the All Japans.

I would have given it........

Kenshi

11-07-2007, 09:53 PM

I would have given it........

I heard that Stevie Wonders raised his flag from the sidelines.

JCM

11-07-2007, 10:08 PM

I heard that Stevie Wonders raised his flag from the sidelines.

You must spread some reputation before giving it to Kenshi again

That really tickled me :D

ZtefaNNN[K]

12-07-2007, 01:00 AM

May I ask, when should a gyaku-do be scored?

I´ve seen and heard weird things, one that´s got me thinking: gyaku-do should be ippon only when it´s the only opening.

...I´ve no clue, we don´t practice gyaku-do at our regular practice, and for this reason we hardly use it at shiai or somewhere else, If I had to judge I could only say that it was on the datotsu-bui with the monouchi... good timing proper speed/power, kakegoe etc... but I´ve seen many gyaku-do or katate-tsuki or hiki-do (whatever) like this and they have not been scored.

Halcyon

12-07-2007, 01:57 AM

;268818']If I had to judge I could only say that it was on the datotsu-bui with the monouchi... good timing proper speed/power, kakegoe etc... but I´ve seen many gyaku-do or katate-tsuki or hiki-do (whatever) like this and they have not been scored.
Well, it goes back to what one of the previous posters said -- you're going to have a hard time awarding ippon to a waza that you yourself can't pull off.

With gyaku do in particular, correct hasuji is very important (of course it's always important, but in do and gyako do, it's complicated by the fact that you have to cut at about a 45-degree angle), as is showing that you actually "cut through" your opponent's do, rather than just "slapping it."

Check out Shimizu's gyaku-do in the following clip from the most recent AJKC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4cUJolmT5s

ZtefaNNN[K]

12-07-2007, 02:11 AM

Well, it goes back to what one of the previous posters said -- you're going to have a hard time awarding ippon to a waza that you yourself can't pull off.

With gyaku do in particular, correct hasuji is very important (of course it's always important, but in do and gyako do, it's complicated by the fact that you have to cut at about a 45-degree angle), as is showing that you actually "cut through" your opponent's do, rather than just "slapping it."

Check out Shimizu's gyaku-do in the following clip from the most recent AJKC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4cUJolmT5s

but should I look after the correct execution and just that?

Halcyon

12-07-2007, 02:24 AM

;268835']but should I look after the correct execution and just that?
Certainly not. Have to take everything into consideration -- correct datotsu-bui, hitting with monouchi, hasuji, kikentai, zanshin, as well as that all-important, sometimes elusive quality, sae, sharpness of technique.

ZtefaNNN[K]

12-07-2007, 03:05 AM

Certainly not. Have to take everything into consideration -- correct datotsu-bui, hitting with monouchi, hasuji, kikentai, zanshin, as well as that all-important, sometimes elusive quality, sae, sharpness of technique.

Yes, I understand, certainly Sae is important and the other elements you mention, but I still don´t understand if the chance or the reaction... or the position of aite does or does not matter when a gyaku-do specifically is executed in order to give it as ippon.

Koki

12-07-2007, 03:45 AM

Shimpan at the WKC have gone through very intensive training session and passed certain requirements. I think Marsten sensei could elaborate on that. I think they saw things that we didn't see...

nikozamo

12-07-2007, 04:19 AM

(they use x-ray glasses? :D) well must be like that... senseis with a lot of experience must see more than us (maybe is better to say some of us) trying to see the same. without considering we are see the videos in a little screen in youtube... hahaha

Halcyon

12-07-2007, 04:22 AM

Ah, I see what you're saying now. It goes back to what you said before:
;268818']I´ve seen and heard weird things, one that´s got me thinking: gyaku-do should be ippon only when it´s the only opening.
I think not. If both kote and men are open, you can get ippon for either one. Same thing with gyaku-do and some other target.

nikozamo

12-07-2007, 07:08 AM

i agree too... the point for hiting are clear, but i must say is preferently used for advanced kenshis

Kenshi

12-07-2007, 09:09 AM

I think they saw things that we didn't see...

[ before people go all crazy with their replies, this is not aimed at Koki or any particular sensei... I think kokis comment above is pretty common, so im commenting on that only ]

Maybe Im being a rebellious teenager (actually im 20yrs old in kendo years, so thats about right) but that to me is too simple an answer.

If the shinpan awarded or didnt award ippon on their own whims and "special insight" then there would be chaos in the kendo world. Their reply to that would be "young boy, you simply cant understand." Somehow, that doesnt satisfy my (rebelious?) mind.

An ippon (in competition) should be - and generally is - obvious to anyone with a little bit of kendo experience. The 3 shinpan should get rid of their subjective thoughts on the matter (as much as possible) and award ippon by-the-official-rulebook... without their own revisions ("Appendix 3.4. Subsection A. No Gyaku-do").

An ippon in keiko is a different manner.

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Kendo isnt a religion. We dont have Cardinals, Bishops, nor infallible Popes (though ive seen people who act like this). If my sensei says something to me I say "ok" and I go away and think about it. I dont assume its correct and I will certainly question it (if not to the person who says it) myself. Ive heard a lot of rubbish over the years by a lot of v.high grades, and im not afraid to question it.

May I ask, when should a gyaku-do be scored?

When it satisfies a yuko-datotsu as set out by the rules. ie the same as men, kote, do, and tsuki.

Sakari

12-07-2007, 05:01 PM

An ippon (in competition) should be - and generally is - obvious to anyone with a little bit of kendo experience. The 3 shinpan should get rid of their subjective thoughts on the matter (as much as possible) and award ippon by-the-official-rulebook... without their own revisions ("Appendix 3.4. Subsection A. No Gyaku-do").

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When it satisfies a yuko-datotsu as set out by the rules. ie the same as men, kote, do, and tsuki.

The problem is that the rule book gives quite a lot of room for interpretation for what really is a yoko-datotsu even without having to resort to private revisions. The requirements for accurate strike or thrust is more or less clear but what exactly means "... high spirits and correct posture, being followed by zanshin"? I would think that to evaluate these matters one needs to consider the reasoning behind the strike. Is the posture reasonable for this situation? Is the attempt reasonable? This opens a door to all kinds of considerations which are not as such in the rule book.

About this particular match with Seike. I do not know whether the gyaku-do strike was yoko-datotsu or not, but after watching the match first time from video I would perhaps not have lifted my flag for it. I think there are two reasons for this: the strike, to me, did not seem to have kime (is this the right word for things that go zap or kapwingggg?) in it and secondly I did not see any "showing of the point" little victory dance. As a result my personal flag lifting reflex did not fire. If you compare that gyaku-do to the one in the other youtube video from AJKC semi-finals(?) that has been floating here I think you can see the difference in the amount of zap.

Fudo-Shin

12-07-2007, 06:04 PM

Check out Shimizu's gyaku-do in the following clip from the most recent AJKC.Now that's a gyaku dou...I was very impressed with everything about Shimizu in that match. In a strange way, I think he won.

Koki

12-07-2007, 06:27 PM

I don't agree with Kenshi. An ippon at mudansha is not the same as an ippon at shodan-sandan level; and an ippon at shodan-sandan level can't be compared with an ippon at kodansha level.

I don't say shimpan award points on their whim; I say they understand kendo more than I do, and their level of kendo is obviously higher than mine. I don't think I am in the position to judge them. Maybe you are?

However, saying so doesn't mean that I'm accepting everything handing down to me without questions. I just merely keeps an open mind. Maybe the shimpan were wrong by not awarding that gyaku dou... Maybe they were right.

You ,i assume, would award the point have you been in their position. Now it comes down to how much shimpan experiences you have?

Kenshi

12-07-2007, 07:28 PM

I don't agree with Kenshi. An ippon at mudansha is not the same as an ippon at shodan-sandan level; and an ippon at shodan-sandan level can't be compared with an ippon at kodansha level.

Thats not what im saying at all... please re-read my posts. I agree with your statement above in its entirety.

I don't say shimpan award points on their whim; I say they understand kendo more than I do, and their level of kendo is obviously higher than mine. I don't think I am in the position to judge them. Maybe you are?

Again, please re-read my posts. I think I got my point across (obviously).

You do know that I am not arguing against you?

You ,i assume, would award the point have you been in their position. Now it comes down to how much shimpan experiences you have?

I dont know if I would have or not. I (we) have the leisure of having video, which changes everything.

You seem to want to call my bluff so I will bite. Dont feel compelled to justify your remarks with evidence or whatever, as I take you at your (very good) word.

My shiai experience is mainly the same as everyone elses with a few years experience on this forum, plus a few years on a national team where I managed to get in a couple of EKCs and a WKCs (I scored a gyaku-do btw) plus great shinpan training. After that I came to Japan - where I am the smallest of small frys - the chance to compete is reduced drastically, but my chance to watch amazing shiai is ... 10000000 fold. Since ive been here ive shinpanned numerous official shiai, entirely for kids (mainly teenagers). I have also taught kids how to shinpan. On occassion I face all-japan level competitiors in semi-official shiai (and once in actual shiai.. that didnt last long) and have shinpanned people of that calibre (and even some 8dans matches) in unofficial shiai training sessions.

Something I dont need to draw attention to is as the only non-Japanese person refereeing these shiai (and on more than a few occassions with people I have never seen before) I am watched like a hawk.

More than anything, its the sheer amount of top level shiai competition - both competitors and shinpan - I see that gives me a little bit of confidence. In fact, I freely admit that I think I make a better shinpan than I do a competitor!!!!! (as sad as it sounds)

cesarekim

12-07-2007, 09:10 PM

Why is that bad, btw? One of the key points at a shinpan seminar I watched (I'm not qualified as one, btw) was that shinpan should all have walked the walk before going in with flags... You may not be allowed to compete at the next WKC, but as a regularly registered BKA member, you could possibly be allowed to shinpan at EKC or what have you. You probably have as much experience at this point as many people who shinpan in Europe...

Kenshi

12-07-2007, 09:51 PM

Id prefer to be renowned for my shiai skills and not my shinpan ones!!!!

I will definetly shinpan a WKC in the future...

Koki

13-07-2007, 03:40 AM

Sorry,kenshi, for jumping the gun.

Anyway, I want to point out (from my limited shiai as well as shimpan experiences) that many times we don't have time to go through the check list in our head. Did he hit with the right target? How was his posture? How was his zanshin? Many times we just make the decision right on the spot based on our guts feeling and our instinct, "Wow… you know that is an ippon!" Of course, this guts feeling is established slowly over time through our personal experiences in keiko, shiai, and shimpan training.

Of course, the problem with that is you don't know how to call an ippon if you haven't seen it before, or if you couldn't do the waza, or if you don't understand the waza, etc. And then we have a bunch of shimpan who are not confident enough to make their own calls(because they don't have the experiences), so they just follow the herd.

Getting rid of subjective judgement is impossible. That's why we have 3 shimpan.