Ippon with hiraki ashi?

[JoDuncan]

Pretty much what the title said...

I've only done proper shiai once (we've done a few informal ones here and there too) and so i'm not so knowledgable on what consitutes ippon. Yeah ok, ki-ken-tai, zanshin and all that but i'm thinking of a specific waza for ippon.

Basically it's nuki do but with hiraki ashi instead of stepping forward to 2o'clock, half past one, half two, whatever with the right foot. Like in kihon keiko ho number 5 i think.. men nuki do. If you were to do that in shinai kendo would it be ippon?

Similarly other techniques not including fumi komi.... ippon?

Thanks

[JoDuncan]

Hiraki ashi sa or yu men as well.

And hiraki ashi hidari kote?

[JSchmidt]

Ki-ken-tai-no-icchi does not mean that you *have* to do fumikomi, or step in certain manner. It means that you should cut with spirit, sword and [b]body[/] as one, not ki-ken-front-foot no icchi.
For most of us mortals, the best way of expressing this is with fumikomi, but once you learn to engage especially the hips, you don't have to do that.

As an interesting example look at "kesa-giri" in Seitei-iai. (And directly related to hiraki-ashi, look at kendo-no-kata no.4)

[Halcyon]

Ki-ken-tai-no-icchi does not mean that you *have* to do fumikomi, or step in certain manner. It means that you should cut with spirit, sword and [b]body[/] as one, not ki-ken-front-foot no icchi.
For most of us mortals, the best way of expressing this is with fumikomi, but once you learn to engage especially the hips, you don't have to do that.
Amen to that. Another example of waza that does not require fumikomi is gyaku-do.

[tango]

I once saw a 5.dan score ippon at the nationals with hiraki-ashi and yokomen.

coolest point i think i've ever seen in competition.

[JoDuncan]

Cool.

I was just wondering. There is so much to kendo that you cannot possibly be taught all the ways to cut for ippon in the first few years.

I thought i had a *a hem* reasonable understanding of ki-ken-tai-ichi but very poor understanding of what is ippon... so maybe my understanding of ki-ken-tai needs to be revised. I certainly didn't think fumi komi was essential for ki-ken-tai but i wasn't sure if it was for ippon. see previous point :D

It's quite hard for beginners (perhaps in all MA?) in kendo to talk on the same level as those more experienced. Like in aiki (same as kendo) the movements are huge for beginners and they slowly get smaller and smaller.
Understand what i am trying to say?

Gyaku do for instance, i've only ever seen done in hiki waza. I'm assuming you can do it just like normal do.. but for me i think i'll stick to kote and men for a few more months... emmm... i mean years. :D

Thanks people!

[enkorat]

Recently (two Saturdays ago), one of my senseis (different from the other senseis in my other posts...) was talking after practice about fumikomi-ashi and how to practice it. Someone had asked a question about fumikomi because he had received conflicting instruction from when he was in Korea and what our sensei was trying to teach that day.

It was interesting in that he said essentially that both views were correct, but one was appropriate for a young (junior high school- high school) person who still had a very young and flexible body. He pointed out that one of my clubmates (who after all these years remains unranked) is in his 60s, practicing such a robust fumikomi repeatedly would eventually lead to injury.

So the gist of what while it is true that beginners get taught big motions along with big fumikomi to teach fundamental movement, you're getting smaller movements at higher ranks because of both an increase in skill and an adaption to increasing age and a different set of limitations.

Also a few months ago, I was at a small local (4-5 dojos) tournament where I was getting my stuff ready and I overheard the shinpan orientation. I kept my head down and kept my ears open, and it was interesting when the head judge said something to the effect of "for mudansha, this is also about encouragement, and not about perfection...so if you see something that is 70% give it to them"

So depending on what division you're fighting in, what the expectations of the judges are, and the experience of the judges themselves tend to influence what is an ippon as well.

Not easy, eh?

[Neil Gendzwill]

You might award ippon to a mudansha with no clear fumikomi if everything else looked right, but not give the same point to a yudansha who should be able to get his foot in, but then give ippon to a more senior person who showed proper ki-ken-tai-ichi without fumikomi.

Judging is hard.

[enkorat]

Ya... waaayy not ready for it yet. This is the point where the advice about not thinking too much is very handy...

[Halcyon]

I was just wondering. There is so much to kendo that you cannot possibly be taught all the ways to cut for ippon in the first few years.
I'm sure you could in theory. But to actually pull off an ippon, well, that takes practice, doesn't it. Especially when the other person is trying to hit you back.

[Kent Enfield]

Similarly other techniques not including fumi komi.... ippon?The way I understand the terms, fumi komi ashi and hiraki ashi aren't mutually exclusive. Hiraki ashi describes a style of movement: translating sideways or diagonally while rotating your body, and is opposed to okuri ashi, ayumi ashi, and tsugi ashi. Fumi komi ashi describes the specific "stomping" action, as opposed to suri ashi.

That all said, I tend to not do fumi komi ashi on men kaeshi do, as I do the kaeshi part with the front foot and the strike in time with snapping the rear foot up. Whether or not that'd be ippon, I can't say. Kaeshi do certainly isn't one of my go-to waza.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I recall seeing Haga-sensei use hiraki-ashi for men-nuki-kote at full speed against opponents 60 years younger. Footwork was much like kata #6, the strike was timed with the back foot swinging into position, no fumikomi. Footwork and timing were amazing, I sure wouldn't deny him those points.

[Fonsz]

I recall seeing Haga-sensei use hiraki-ashi for men-nuki-kote at full speed against opponents 60 years younger. Footwork was much like kata #6, the strike was timed with the back foot swinging into position, no fumikomi. Footwork and timing were amazing, I sure wouldn't deny him those points.
There are people out there that tell us that there should always be fumikomi.
Preferably with the foot lifted as high as your knee. There also should be a forward motion. In my mind these are things to learn people how to perform Kikentaiitchi. The men nuki kote that you described is an Ippon in my eyes. The people that I mentioned can deny it with the above mentioned explanation.
One rule/thing that I learned from my Sensei is that it should look "alive". Usually that's a good thing to look for.
FWIW my 0,02 cents (Euro)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Preferably with the foot lifted as high as your knee. These are people I vehemently disagree with. Raising your foot that high tends to make your body go up a lot, but all you want to do is go forward. It's wasted motion, not to mention raising your risk of injury.

[shred_lord]

Preferably with the foot lifted as high as your knee. Everything I have ever been told says these people are wrong. Good fumikomi should be a clap, not a stamp. You foot should ideally be no more than a few inches of the ground. The higher you lift your foot, the shorter you make your stride. I've just tried to do fumikomi with my foot going as high as my knee and I can't see it being effective compared to keeping your foot low.

Doh, Neil beat me to it.

[MAZ77]

These are people I vehemently disagree with. Raising your foot that high tends to make your body go up a lot, but all you want to do is go forward. It's wasted motion, not to mention raising your risk of injury.

UNLESS your goal is to knee your opponent in the nuts. Certainly then, not wasted motion.

[JoDuncan]

same as shredder and neil. in fact, the way i have been taught it is to keep the foot low and flat. The only time i have seen my teacher raise his foot up high is when fighting someone very much taller than he.

[Fonsz]

These are people I vehemently disagree with. Raising your foot that high tends to make your body go up a lot, but all you want to do is go forward. It's wasted motion, not to mention raising your risk of injury.
Funny that you mention this, because these are the folks with knee injuries which have to be dealt with in a hospital. They are also the ones that insist that Kendo can only be properly done on a wooden (floating) surface. I agree that it is very nice to practice on such a floor. But not everyone has the luxury of such a nice floor.
I always think that if you can practice on a concrete floor covered with the stuff that gyms are usually made of then a wooden floor will only be better.

But the purpose of this thread was hiraki ashi.
What about this one then?
Men (gets blocked) and then do whilst performing some kind of hiraki ashi and twisting the hips. Sounds complicated now that I read it but the do uchi is with the tip and not moto uchi. Ippon or not?

[hyuna]

i find it difficult to get my body into the hit when using hiraki ashi, so i don't think that i would ever get ippon using it. i think the same is true for a lot of people.

[Kingofmyrrh]

There are people out there that tell us that there should always be fumikomi.
Preferably with the foot lifted as high as your knee. There also should be a forward motion. In my mind these are things to learn people how to perform Kikentaiitchi. The men nuki kote that you described is an Ippon in my eyes. The people that I mentioned can deny it with the above mentioned explanation.
One rule/thing that I learned from my Sensei is that it should look "alive". Usually that's a good thing to look for.
FWIW my 0,02 cents (Euro)

Strangely I was talking about this yesterday with a Dutch friend who came to visit me in Tokyo, so I guess I know who you mean. I find myself agreeing with Neil and crew more than this teacher though.

[Fonsz]

Strangely I was talking about this yesterday with a Dutch friend who came to visit me in Tokyo, so I guess I know who you mean. I find myself agreeing with Neil and crew more than this teacher though.
Now why am I not surprised? I feel assured to be in such esteemed company. It's also nice to know that one can come here for not only educated guesses but also some more insight from different angles.
Much obliged.