Tsuki Hazushi Uchi?

[Newbie]

I like tsuki hazushi uchi. But it doesn't really make sense to me. I thought it would in the context of kata but apparently the kata starts in that stance with your jo above your head. I had just assumed you were forcing the sword to tsuki. But you don't take the stance, mid-combat so why in god's name would you be standing with on a road or in the middle of a rice paddy with your jo above your head? Any self-respecting samurai would think 'bloody peasant must be nuts' and avoid them.

I don't get it.

[Fred27]

I like tsuki hazushi uchi. But it doesn't really make sense to me. I thought it would in the context of kata but apparently the kata starts in that stance with your jo above your head. I had just assumed you were forcing the sword to tsuki. But you don't take the stance, mid-combat so why in god's name would you be standing with on a road or in the middle of a rice paddy with your jo above your head? Any self-respecting samurai would think 'bloody peasant must be nuts' and avoid them.

I don't get it.


Short answer: The kamae itself enables the defender to go on both the offensive and defensive (the former is Ukan, the latter Sakan-kata). In the kage-series there is another example of techniques excecuted from this kamae. May look silly, but it is devious and dangerous if you dont know what to expect.

This is just the short answer though. I'm gonna let the higher uppers fill in on the rest.

*Edit*

If you have seen the "Rai uchi" kata then you'll notice the shidachi very briefly moving the Jo to the Tsuki Hazushi Uchi kamae with the jo above his/her head though quickly so it isn't visible when excecuting it at proper speed.

[Fred27]

Here is a example of Rai Uchi. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPQ6hpAfF_I)

[Andy_Watson]

Fred's right, and you're not just standing in the middle of a rice paddy as you put it. All of the starting kamae mark the beginning of a combative engagement so you are indeed luring the uchidachi to make a tsuki.

Fred, it's interesting what you wrote about the contrast of Ukan to Sakan and that the former has an initially offensive nature in both omote and kage in comparison to the latter.

Your point about Rai Uchi however is stretching it a bit. The video you posted doesn't really represent the real pace of the kata and the movement of the jo between thrusts isn't properly executed here. A horizontal rotation is no longer the flavour of the week and has been replaced with the original (Fukuoka style) vertical rotation of the jo. Even with the old Tokyo style, the practitioner only passes through a similar body position to Sakan by coincidence and isn't supposed to linger there as they do on the vid.

Hurrah for an interesting question though.

[Fred27]

Fred's right, and you're not just standing in the middle of a rice paddy as you put it. All of the starting kamae mark the beginning of a combative engagement so you are indeed luring the uchidachi to make a tsuki.

Fred, it's interesting what you wrote about the contrast of Ukan to Sakan and that the former has an initially offensive nature in both omote and kage in comparison to the latter.

In retrospect I realised I was a bit hasty in that comment. The initial "pinning" of the opponent is a response to an attack. Which technically is defensive. My bad.


Your point about Rai Uchi however is stretching it a bit. The video you posted doesn't really represent the real pace of the kata and the movement of the jo between thrusts isn't properly executed here. A horizontal rotation is no longer the flavour of the week and has been replaced with the original (Fukuoka style) vertical rotation of the jo. Even with the old Tokyo style, the practitioner only passes through a similar body position to Sakan by coincidence and isn't supposed to linger there as they do on the vid.

Hurrah for an interesting question though.

I agree that the Rai Uchi clip was not the best I've seen. In reality the Rai uchi should move very VERY swiftly from one side to the other without stopping. However, minus the slower speed shown in the above clip, the "horizontal version" is the one we are taught at our dojo. Though I'm not gonna swear it is exactly as you guys have done it in the past. As a rough guide: we are taught to keep it horizontal, albeit only for a microsecond, when switching from one side to the other.

So I'm afraid stating that this or that type of movement is "not longer practiced" is in fact stretching it a bit as well since we have no single organisation to make these changes (or reverting previous changes) universal. :)

I realise other groups do it differently, and apparently our way is not the "flavour of the week" anymore, but I'm not really up for a debate on pro's and con's. Let the Wise Men judge that for themselves :p.

[Andy_Watson]

Oops sorry, instant assumption of ZNKR seitei jodo syndrome again.

Which end of Japan does your SMR lineage descend from Fred as I understand that the change from horizontal to vertical was an influence from the original Fukuoka style?

Regards

Andy

[Fred27]

Which end of Japan does your SMR lineage descend from Fred as I understand that the change from horizontal to vertical was an influence from the original Fukuoka style?

Regards

Andy

Well..The lineage of the European Jodo Federation is mainly Shimizu Takaji though I know the EJF leader worked with Kaminoda for awhile after Shimizus death. Nowadays we work very closely with a japanese Sensei named Nishioka Tsuneo, Menkyo Kaiden (1975) under Shimizu Takaji. It was Nishioka who issued Pascal Krieger (of the EJF) his Menkyo Kaiden. Nishioka Tsuneo has a Jodo org named "Sei Ryu Kai (http://www.jodojo.com)" (much like Kaminoda Senseis "Nihon Jodokai").

You mentioned earlier "old style tokyo Jo". You are not far from the truth as Nishioka started learning SMR-Jo in the early 1940's (recieving Shomokuroku in 1943) and without a doubt there are differences between what, for instance, Kaminoda Sensei teaches though both are from the same Tokyo-lineage.

I cant overstate how much he has meant to the EJF (and IJF) and how much respect he has earned. Actually if you browse around the official European Jodo Federations website (www.fej.ch) you can see it for yourself. :)

Anyways, thats our lineage.

[Andy_Watson]

Cheers Fred. Very interesting.

I thought what you said might be the case. I am very interested in what used to constitute Shimizu sensei's koryu as, as I understand it, it varied through his time and that has had great influence on the various groups who emerged from his teachings. For example, the koryu taught by Hiroi sensei sounds quite different from that taught by some of the western people who learned jodo very early on. I guess I just find it fascinating how Shimizu sensei developed and made alterations to jodo through his experience of teaching it to people in Tokyo.

Regards

Andy

[Fred27]

I guess I just find it fascinating how Shimizu sensei developed and made alterations to jodo through his experience of teaching it to people in Tokyo.




I agree.
(did we scare off Newbie by the way? :D)

While we are discussing the evolution alterations of Jodo and lineage perhaps I could mention a bit about the influences involved with Seitei Jodo (which I assume many here are training).
(Please note before I begin, I'm not a seitei Jodoka and I what I've learned about it is from secondary sources.)

As you guys know, Shimizu held a close cooperation with the Kendo community in Tokyo teaching many of them Jodo. The kendo community had a strong influence on Jodo in the days of Shimizu Takaji.

One of the main influences was combat posture. The combat posture in kendo is having your body straight ahead. In SMR the posture is more diagonal. (I hope I'm expressing myself correctly, its hard for me to describe technical stuff). In Honte no kamae, for instance, the right hip is pointing not to the immediate right but more to the "North East". The straight position seems to be found mostly in Seitei Jodo dojos, (but not always). I dont know if it was a concious effort to include the straight position in Seitei or if it came naturally due to the many kendoka that trained Seitei Jodo.

I think this is an example of a Kendo type posture (http://users.telenet.be/tsurukai/Website%20images/Jodo2_small.gif) but its hard to see properly since its a profile shot.

And here is a SMR type posture (http://www.scarsdaleaikido.com/images/0208_jodo_nishioka_krieger.jpg). (The Shidachi is Nishioka Tsuneo).

Another influence on Seitei Jodo was the position of the Jo itself in (for instance) honte no kamae. Some seitei jodoka I've seen holds the jo in front & center of him like a Flag/banner-barrier. Using this posture and positioning, the jodoka, in order to facilitate a "honte uchi", must first pull the jo from the center to the left hip and then start the actual draw. In the SMR "honte no kamae", the hips are positioned diagonal and the jo is placed near the hip with open space behind it at all times which enables the wielder to draw the jo at ease and with no restrictions.

Here is a better photo of a honte no kamae SMR posture (http://www.budophiladelphia.org/Budo%20Philadelphia/Shinto%20Muso-Ryu%20Jo_files/IMG_3033touch.jpg). The hips are diagonal and the Jo's position enables it to be drawn swiftly.

Influence number three I'm honestly not sure if it is a Kendo influence at all, maybe you guys can help with that.
In Seitei Jodo on the sword-side there seems to be a dominance for strikes made from overhead (Jodan). In SMR the trend is mostly (but not dominant in all SMR groups) to strike directly from "hasso" position unless the kata dictates Jodan or other type of strike. The hasso preference I believe is mainly Fukuoka-style rather than Tokyo. When I first started my training I was told to start with Jodan and much later move on to hasso-strikes as I progress. I'm not sure if Jodan is a kendo-trait or if it was simply decided to use it in Seitei Jodo for other reasons. I also see some variations between certain Seitei Jodo dojos. Some have the hips in SMR-style but position of the jo still at the center and in front of the body.

All in all, these differences are dependant on the Sensei and his/her experience in either SMR or Seitei that colour the teachings so I doubt it is truly "standard" after all.

So thats a bit on the influences on Jodo. Sorry for long post and I hope I got all the seitei information correct. :)

[Newbie]

(did we scare off Newbie by the way? )


Heh, not quite. A fair bit is going over my head but I'm speed-reading whilst at work so that hopefully accounts for some of it..

Another influence on Seitei Jodo was the position of the Jo itself in (for instance) honte no kamae. Some seitei jodoka I've seen holds the jo in front & center of him like a Flag/banner-barrier. Using this posture and positioning, the jodoka, in order to facilitate a "honte uchi", must first pull the jo from the center to the left hip and then start the actual draw. In the SMR "honte no kamae", the hips are positioned diagonal and the jo is placed near the hip with open space behind it at all times which enables the wielder to draw the jo at ease and with no restrictions.

I only do seitei but if someone can push the joseki (sp?) backwards and it hits my stomach, hip, any part of me, then my angle's wrong and sempai rides me about it.

In Seitei Jodo on the sword-side there seems to be a dominance for strikes made from overhead (Jodan). In SMR the trend is mostly (but not dominant in all SMR groups) to strike directly from "hasso" position unless the kata dictates Jodan or other type of strike.

Yuppers. I've always been told to come from hasso, through jodan to strike.

One of the prominent sensei in Aus though is really good about stuff in seitei that doesn't seem to quite make sense and explaining it's koryu origins so what you're doing make sense, even if it's been modified for seitei.

[Kim Taylor]

Hey Fred

As far as your seitei points, number one, the hips are not square forward in seitei on the jo side. I was told they were when I first started many years ago, but the first Japanese sensei I ran into changed that.

Number 2, the jo is not centred, it carries off to the edge of the hip as Newbie mentioned. I've never been told to centre it that I recall.

Number 3. The initial move in a kata from hasso is through jodan, I've never seen anyone do it differently in seitei (or koryu, Tokyo or Fukuoka lines that I can recall offhand), but during kata the strikes are often coming directly from hasso.

Is modern jodo (seitei AND koryu) being influenced by kendo? Absolutely, since the majority of menkyo (including those who have separate koryu organizations) are in the kendo federation, how could there not be? The influence is either inclusionary (hmm there's some value to doing it like I do it when practicing kendo/iaido) or exclusionary (don't you guys dare do it like we do it in kendo), but either way the influence is there. Has to be since the discussion is ongoing unless you're cut off from everyone else.

As for variations, there used to be a lot of variation in seitei, including some very common Tokyo/Fukuoka differences but in the last several years there has been a very strong and cordial push to standardize it. The differences were subjected to some give and take and it continues to come together. The differences are on the lines of when you move your back hand completely around while doing kaeshi tsuki, when you move your gyakute to honte at the end of the kihon, when you move your kissaki from jo's right side to left side at the ending of a kata... in other words, fairly meaningless movements. (You can give excellent combative reasons for doing things either way, which means they are pretty much equivalent and therefore let's just settle on one to stop the stupid arguments).

Just one further small but important point as I've come to understand it. The jodo committee of the kendo federation are also SMR koryu sensei. The kendo guys do not dictate in any way how to do jodo (hunh? whaddya mean we have a judo section... oh JOdo... what's that?) nor is there any sort of dictate from the kendo side that we ought to fit either jodo or iaido to kendo. The seitei jo kata are created and modified by SMR/ZNKR jodo sensei, period.

Or, as it was explained to me... "in seitei tachi keeps their back heel up because that's what they do in kendo and we're in the kendo federation so that's how we're now doing it". In other words, our (SMR jodo) choice, not "we keep the back foot up because the kendo federation makes us do it". At the same time "jo usually keeps the back heel down and not square because that's jodo".

Fairly subtle point but important nonetheless if you think about it.

Kim Taylor

[Fred27]

Hey Fred

As far as your seitei points, number one, the hips are not square forward in seitei on the jo side. I was told they were when I first started many years ago, but the first Japanese sensei I ran into changed that.


Ah I see.


Number 2, the jo is not centred, it carries off to the edge of the hip as Newbie mentioned. I've never been told to centre it that I recall.


Hm..Well if thats the case I'm gonna have to put this one up to my inability to express myself in the english language. The official ZNKR Seitei Jodo video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5359625860913697857&q=jodo&total=228&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0) on google video helps explain what I meant. At time index 10.53 he demonstrates how to do Honte no kamae in which the jo (to me) seems to be exactly centered.

And if you dont mind me using yourself Kim as an example, you do almost the exact same thing in your Honte Uchi kihon video on your website. It does look like you are trying to shake the habit though (so to speak) and some of the honte uchis have the jo very close to the hip instead of center.

But this is just my interpretation of "center" and so on. I might have expressed myself poorly.


Number 3. The initial move in a kata from hasso is through jodan, I've never seen anyone do it differently in seitei (or koryu, Tokyo or Fukuoka lines that I can recall offhand), but during kata the strikes are often coming directly from hasso.


The intial move? You mean as in (for instance) Tachio Otoshi when the two combatants meet and cross weapons? Yes that sounds like what we are doing too. But! We dont do it a full jodan. Its more like a half-hasso half-jodan. I dont know if this is written in the "scriptures" or not..might be one of those things that crept in since we are encouraged to do alot of Jodan in the beginning and some if it might still be there in later levels too.


Is modern jodo (seitei AND koryu) being influenced by kendo? Absolutely, since the majority of menkyo (including those who have separate koryu organizations) are in the kendo federation, how could there not be? The influence is either inclusionary (hmm there's some value to doing it like I do it when practicing kendo/iaido) or exclusionary (don't you guys dare do it like we do it in kendo), but either way the influence is there. Has to be since the discussion is ongoing unless you're cut off from everyone else.


I agree..You should see our warm-up drills speaking of which. :) It was only the past month I realised it looked very much like a kendo-drill. (jodan strikes back and forth)


The kendo guys do not dictate in any way how to do jodo (hunh? whaddya mean we have a judo section... oh JOdo... what's that?) nor is there any sort of dictate from the kendo side that we ought to fit either jodo or iaido to kendo. The seitei jo kata are created and modified by SMR/ZNKR jodo sensei, period.


I admit I'm in the dark as to which governing body actually governs Seitei Jodo and how much influence it has. Heh, to an outsider like me, ZNKR, as in Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei kinda gives an impression that the whole shebang is run by Kendo guys. :)

Again I have to mention I have no hands-on experience with Seitei. My sensei holds Jodo-grade in the Swedish kendo federation/association, and he once told me he could both teach & grade me in seitei. But we've never done any seitei or graded in it. The closest thing I've gotten to seitei jodo education are just demonstrations on how the various groups does this-or-that technique or kata. "Fukuoka prefers this type of honte uchi, Tokyo prefers this and Seitei guys do that" (etc etc).

Anyways, thanks alot for yer answer on Seitei.
All the best
/Fred

[Kim Taylor]

Hm..Well if thats the case I'm gonna have to put this one up to my inability to express myself in the english language. The official ZNKR Seitei Jodo video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5359625860913697857&q=jodo&total=228&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0) on google video helps explain what I meant. At time index 10.53 he demonstrates how to do Honte no kamae in which the jo (to me) seems to be exactly centered.

And if you dont mind me using yourself Kim as an example, you do almost the exact same thing in your Honte Uchi kihon video on your website. It does look like you are trying to shake the habit though (so to speak) and some of the honte uchis have the jo very close to the hip instead of center.

But this is just my interpretation of "center" and so on. I might have expressed myself poorly.



The intial move? You mean as in (for instance) Tachio Otoshi when the two combatants meet and cross weapons? Yes that sounds like what we are doing too. But! We dont do it a full jodan. Its more like a half-hasso half-jodan. I dont know if this is written in the "scriptures" or not..might be one of those things that crept in since we are encouraged to do alot of Jodan in the beginning and some if it might still be there in later levels too.


By "from the hip" I mean that if you extend the jo back from the rear hand it should touch the hip, not the tanden. If the jo is outside the hip it's in a very weak position and if it's in the centre than you have to move both hands to keep the josaki on the target as you pull it back and move it sideways to avoid the hip. The stance is "ya ya hanmi" here.

As for the move through jodan, actually in the matching movements you don't go through jodan. For tachi to go through jodan while matching is to open up a big hole for jo to attack through. I'm talking about techniques such as tsuki zue where you cut on the initial attack.

But I'm not the authority by any means Fred, I'm only a godan in jodo, so please don't consider my performance or my comments as anything other than as a student of the art. This should be obvious but sometimes I forget that on the net people do tend to assume expertise or authority where it doesn't exist.

I admit I'm in the dark as to which governing body actually governs Seitei Jodo and how much influence it has. Heh, to an outsider like me, ZNKR, as in Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei kinda gives an impression that the whole shebang is run by Kendo guys.

The ZNKR governs / owns / defines Zen Ken Ren jo (what folks usually call seitei), absolutely it does, and the ZNKR is run by kendo guys, of course.

But the jodo and iaido sections look after jodo and iaido. The kendo section looks after kendo.

Many of the top sensei practice more than one of the three arts under the federation, this being, I think, more common if your primary art is iaido or jodo rather than kendo. At least in Canada it's quite common for top ranked folks to be strictly kendo, while those who are top ranked in iaido tend also to do kendo or jodo as well. There are, however, lots of students and instructors who do only iaido or only jodo and of course a very large number who do only kendo.

All in Japan are in the ZNKR, so it's fair to say that the ZNKR governs jodo. We won't get into the relationship between the ZNKR and the IKF... FIK?) But let me give you an example from the CKF about names and governance since that's where I am. I sat on the constitutional committee years and years ago (dunno why, I guess because I had experience in such things) and at that time it was suggested (by the kendo folks actually) that we change the name to the Canadian kendo and iaido federation. I argued against that because the name was already well established over many decades, and anyone in the federation knows that it includes iaido and jodo as well as kendo. The name change would not have any new meaning and would only confuse things, as well as be more and more awkward if we also included jodo some time in the future (which we did). It was very welcome and gracious that the change was offered, but in the end we simply kept the CKF name as it was. So, although it's the Canadian KENDO Federation, there has always been a recognition from the kendo side that it includes iaido and jodo.

That's the externals of the thing, the name. As for the governance of jodo and iaido, even though there are no separate iaido and jodo sections under the constitution of the CKF (as there are in other countries such as the BKA) with members on the executive and separate budgets etc., there are technical committees and grading committees for both iaido and jodo and there has never been any attempt by one "section" to influence the technical aspects of another section. To be plain, the kendo sensei do not in any way suggest how we should practice jodo, nor do the iaido sensei. Each "section" functions on its own technically so to say that "kendo" influences the practice of jodo is not really accurate, yet the CKF jodo section is under the kendo federation.

As far as I know this situation is the same world-wide in the various kendo federations. I've never heard differently anyway.

Kim.

[Fred27]

By "from the hip" I mean that if you extend the jo back from the rear hand it should touch the hip, not the tanden. If the jo is outside the hip it's in a very weak position and if it's in the centre than you have to move both hands to keep the josaki on the target as you pull it back and move it sideways to avoid the hip. The stance is "ya ya hanmi" here.


I cant find a decent photo of the type of honte-no-kamae to illustrate it.
In our honte-no-kamae and honti-uchi we keep the jo so that the butt-end never faces any part of the body but is instead pointed just past the hip instead of the center (tanden) or on the hip.

Its like holding a spear. The shaft of the spear goes back and beyond the body hugging the hip. Its this position we use, except of course its a jo which that doesnt extend as far back as the hips.

Oh, in case anyone is reading Pascal Kriegers book "Way of the Stick" to find a reference then it would be a bit out-of-date by about 20 years. In his book he shows it with the jo at the center but its been changed since then.


As for the move through jodan, actually in the matching movements you don't go through jodan. For tachi to go through jodan while matching is to open up a big hole for jo to attack through. I'm talking about techniques such as tsuki zue where you cut on the initial attack.


Ah! Gotcha. :) Yes in the initial first strike, like tsuke zue, we use a jodan attack in the beginning and then eventually, as we progress in Jodo, we do it directly from hasso. I'm still at half-hasso stage :p


But I'm not the authority by any means Fred, I'm only a godan in jodo, so please don't consider my performance or my comments as anything other than as a student of the art. This should be obvious but sometimes I forget that on the net people do tend to assume expertise or authority where it doesn't exist.


Well that is one of the inherited risks of putting videos of oneself on the internet for all to see and scrutinize. But yes I agree..If I were to put up videos of myself doing kihon and omote most peeps would be rolling on the floor laughing their asses off.


The ZNKR governs / owns / defines Zen Ken Ren jo (what folks usually call seitei), absolutely it does, and the ZNKR is run by kendo guys, of course.

But the jodo and iaido sections look after jodo and iaido. The kendo section looks after kendo.

Many of the top sensei practice more than one of the three arts under the federation, this being, I think, more common if your primary art is iaido or jodo rather than kendo. At least in Canada it's quite common for top ranked folks to be strictly kendo, while those who are top ranked in iaido tend also to do kendo or jodo as well. There are, however, lots of students and instructors who do only iaido or only jodo and of course a very large number who do only kendo.

All in Japan are in the ZNKR, so it's fair to say that the ZNKR governs jodo. We won't get into the relationship between the ZNKR and the IKF... FIK?) But let me give you an example from the CKF about names and governance since that's where I am. I sat on the constitutional committee years and years ago (dunno why, I guess because I had experience in such things) and at that time it was suggested (by the kendo folks actually) that we change the name to the Canadian kendo and iaido federation. I argued against that because the name was already well established over many decades, and anyone in the federation knows that it includes iaido and jodo as well as kendo. The name change would not have any new meaning and would only confuse things, as well as be more and more awkward if we also included jodo some time in the future (which we did). It was very welcome and gracious that the change was offered, but in the end we simply kept the CKF name as it was. So, although it's the Canadian KENDO Federation, there has always been a recognition from the kendo side that it includes iaido and jodo.

That's the externals of the thing, the name. As for the governance of jodo and iaido, even though there are no separate iaido and jodo sections under the constitution of the CKF (as there are in other countries such as the BKA) with members on the executive and separate budgets etc., there are technical committees and grading committees for both iaido and jodo and there has never been any attempt by one "section" to influence the technical aspects of another section. To be plain, the kendo sensei do not in any way suggest how we should practice jodo, nor do the iaido sensei. Each "section" functions on its own technically so to say that "kendo" influences the practice of jodo is not really accurate, yet the CKF jodo section is under the kendo federation.

As far as I know this situation is the same world-wide in the various kendo federations. I've never heard differently anyway.

Kim.

I think this is the best single piece of info I've ever recieved on the Seitei Jodo org. :) Thanks heaps!
/Fred

[Fred27]

...And before someone gives me wierd looks about the "spear"-example: Of course we dont hold our left hand on the hip in our honte no kamae like with a spear but have the left hand forward.

Oh and Newbie? If you find the Ichimonji no kamae of Sakan-kata to be "wierd", you should really check out the kamae found in "Yokogiri dome" kata :p.

[Kim Taylor]

Oh, in case anyone is reading Pascal Kriegers book "Way of the Stick" to find a reference then it would be a bit out-of-date by about 20 years. In his book he shows it with the jo at the center but its been changed since then.

Impossible Fred, there are no changes in Koryu! To even suggest such a thing........

Well that is one of the inherited risks of putting videos of oneself on the internet for all to see and scrutinize. But yes I agree..If I were to put up videos of myself doing kihon and omote most peeps would be rolling on the floor laughing their asses off.

To tell you a small truth Fred, I've never had much time for folks who talk without showing. It's why I periodically disappear from the net discussions, when the experts get too loud and too knowledgeable I wait for a few months until they quit practicing. The mailing list that ultimately became iaido-l began in the 80s... hmm '87 probably, 20 years ago this year, and I've seen experts come and go from the very beginning. I can count on a couple of hands the guys who were there then, and are still around sharing the arts. You'll find video (and several manuals) by me out there from very early in my career. They are what they are, and representative of my understanding at the time, which, when I re-read them now, was a hell of a lot more clear than my understanding now. (Don't get me started on that explanation).

Those particular freebie videos on sdksupplies.com are just what I say they are, practice tapes, and in some cases they include things I'm "trying out" such as dropping rather dramatically into iai goshi before walking forward to do a kata in Seitei Iai. That shouldn't be done, and I dislike it personally, but it was something I was doing to create a certain mind-set as I practiced for my grading. Please take them as such. Do I care if folks see them? Of course not, I've always shown what I know, but don't take them as anything definitive on the art.

Of even more importance to you would be to remember that I'm not in your IJF line, and I hold, if not actually different views on the arts from other long-timers, a slightly different approach to teaching.

Of course what I've got in common with most of the old farts is a tendency to think (if not to actually say) "come back and talk to me in 10 years kid". I resist, and keep teaching when and where I can.

;-)
Kim.

[Newbie]

Oh yeah, i meant to mention, in reference to that ZNKR Jodo vid of all the seitei tandoku and kata I was always told not to trust it. Apparently there are deliberate mistakes in it so that examiners can tell who was taught in a dojo and who was self-taught. It's also a really old video and seitei is still young and adapting.

Hope that clears up the confusion there.

[Kim Taylor]

Oh yeah, i meant to mention, in reference to that ZNKR Jodo vid of all the seitei tandoku and kata I was always told not to trust it. Apparently there are deliberate mistakes in it so that examiners can tell who was taught in a dojo and who was self-taught. It's also a really old video and seitei is still young and adapting.

Hope that clears up the confusion there.

Hmm, well I'm the "head" of the jodo section for the Canadian Kendo Federation, and the two sensei who did the ZNKR video are two of the sensei who visit us here to teach and I've never heard such a thing about the video. I'd be interested in knowing who told you that and where they heard it.

I call urban myth. I've heard this before about many different instructional materials but I've never had any author tell me he'd deliberately put mistakes into his book or video... made mistakes, yes, absolutely, but deliberately, no.

I can't imagine anyone who would try such a thing, there's too many peers out there who would call you on it, and it would take about 6 seconds in the age of the internet for everyone to know what the "deliberate mistakes" were.

"Here's a tape to help you guys practice until I can visit again, oh and by the way, in number seven you have to step forward instead of back, it's the shibboleth so don't tell anyone else about it OK".....

Nah.

Oh, but my books and videos.... absolutely, every mistake in there is deliberate, just to see if you learned it from my book or not. Yeah, yeah, that's it.....

Kim Taylor

[Aden]

The ZNKR video series (due to a momentary loss of control of my wallet the first time I visited the Budokan I have jo/kendo kata/a couple of kendo reiho or basics/iai various versions) while incredibly useful does have some issues and are not perfect templates to imitate - but I always thought they were to do with some things not defined in the manual vary depending on your ryu (in relation to the iai - as sensei say 'your style' not meaning your personal style), police sensei doing things a bit differently, and the main ones of committee changes in interpretation causing drift over time and the fact that everyone makes mistakes sometime especially if they are asked to demo without much notice - rather than deliberate errors.

It does happen in koryu - there are things in books and tapes you can buy that have errors in timing, distance, interpretation or even whole incorrect elements (read the forward of Otake Sensei's book or in the case of Tamiya look at the Budokan tape of the Tamiya Soke) but the ZNKR arts are intended for standardising things not trying to walk the line of promoting while concealing.

Aden

[Newbie]

I didn't mean to start an argument. I was more referring to the glaring things like the jo pointing straight into the stomach instead of just past the hip, that kind of thing. The person who told me is either fourth or fifth dan in seitei jodo, I forget which. He did say the book was really good, if that lowers people's hackles? I know I winced a few times watching those vids but they are very old, as well and as far as my short-sighted new eyes see it, seitei is still very young and adapting.

Anyway, getting back to the original point, so with tsuki hazushi uchi, hostilities have already started, though combat hasn't, which is why you would take that stance in order to force the tachi to tsuki rather than standing there like a pillock before hostilities have started?

[Kim Taylor]

Yes, well to say that educators are deliberately introducing incorrect information into a video or a book is bound to raise a hackle or two don't you think? There's a world of difference between a video that shows a "mistake" (perhaps best defined as "different than how we do it") and one that contains deliberate falsehoods.

Speaking of how these tapes are made, as I was told the story, the two who did the jodo tape were told "be at such and such a place at this time with your stuff". That's the amount of preparation involved, they weren't even told they were going to be taped. I have full confidence the editing and re-takes were similarly relaxed.

Perhaps this should tell us something about how important the folks at the very top think all our obsessing about the various little twitches and fine positions are? Lest folks think these two are "seitei only" guys, they're both menkyo and both hachidan, either would be fully qualified to teach you the subtleties of koryu or seitei.

I've practiced with several menkyo from several lines (variously described as "Fukuoka", "Tokyo", "Keishicho", and some named after the top instructor) and without fail they have described the various twitches and "mistakes" as "that's how so and so does it, we do it this way". I was never ever told that any of them were "wrong".

(Oops, let me qualify that, I was never told it was wrong by the top guys, their juniors always describe differences as mistakes, with more mistakes being identified by more junior "instructors". As you go up the food chain more and more is "OK but not the way we do it".)

These differences serve more to tell folks which instructor you study under than whether or not you're doing correct jo.

We all start with which foot goes in front and where your little finger goes and what direction the stick points, but if you stick to it long enough you get into "what it means to do jodo" and that little secret doesn't have anything to do with whether the jo is off the hip or off the middle of the body. Either of those positions are just fine, and could be settled on as "correct". Both have good and bad points in about equal measure. The fact that one is taught and the other isn't is simply a matter of preference from the fellow at the top.

Of course that's just my understanding, based on my experience. You will get other opinions, and the one you should accept is your sensei's.

Kim Taylor

[Marcus_P]

Just a note that afaik, Newb, you only study Seitei Jo right? So any SMR references might not be as useful!

Or maybe that's just me... I'm not getting a lot of the SMR examples when you guys say check out this kata from SMR as I've only done Seitei so far! =P

[Newbie]

As I say everytime I post a jodo or iaido question, I have no idea about koryu so that anything said that's koryu specific goes over my head.

Umm.. there is an unfortunate chance we're not talking about the same vid. I can only think of one that I've seen on youtube, the only one I've been able to find. It was really old though. However, I've only got email access at work and youtube is blocked so I can't double check.

However, getting back to the original point, can someone clarify this that I asked to be clarified before:

"Anyway, getting back to the original point, so with tsuki hazushi uchi, hostilities have already started, though combat hasn't, which is why you would take that stance in order to force the tachi to tsuki rather than standing there like a pillock before hostilities have started?"

[Aden]

Hi Newbie

The ZNKR jodo video is fairly old - my notes indicate I first saw it in 1994 (unless I was refering to some other stick film.... :) )... I think has a copyright date of Showa 63 / 1988 (?) unlike the iaido video I have not seen a newer version. I am sure there have been many commitee meetings and clarifications since then.....

Aden

[Andy_Watson]

Hey Newbie

You're asking for clarification although Fred explained very clearly earlier on in the thread. Anyone would think you were living on the other side of the world or something :)

Tsuki hazushi uchi is the tandoku dosa basic technique taken out of the kata context in order for key elements of it to be practised individually and thus later added back into the kata to propagate progression with the kata.

SO...

The meaning of Sakan is to urge your opponent into making the attack you want them to, in this case a tsuki to the solar plexus. You're not standing there like a pillock, you are offering a target thus hoping to direct the outcome in a way which suits you. Actually this is not much different to the approach that one should have to all their kata riai - to make the opponent do what you want them to do rather than reacting to them.

Does that answer your question kanga-muncha?

:silly:

[Newbie]

Andy, I was paraphrasing back to make sure I understood it properly :(

Either of those positions are just fine, and could be settled on as "correct". Both have good and bad points in about equal measure.

Kim, you've peaked my interest... can you explain the advantages of the advantage of having the jo pointing into the stomach instead of past the hip? I haven't heard that before :)

[Kim Taylor]

Kim, you've peaked my interest... can you explain the advantages of the advantage of having the jo pointing into the stomach instead of past the hip? I haven't heard that before :)

The way you say this suggests that nobody has said it to you before, and that you perhaps have some trouble believing it.

In this or any other question where we are looking at advice or examples from very high ranking and long-experienced instructors it is our job to assume a couple of things.

1. They may know what they're talking about.
2. We may not have all the information to make a correct assumption about the "right or wrong" way they are doing, whatever it is they're doing. No wait, that's the same assumption isn't it?

And so we should think, experiment, seek more advice, be patient and practice longer (a couple more years may bring the answer), and use every opportunity to keep an open mind.

Here is how I would attack this problem. First, state the problem so... It seems to be assumed on the net that there is a right way and a wrong way to hold the jo. The right way being to hold it off the hip, the wrong way to hold it in the centre of the body. I will assume that high ranking people are doing it both ways, otherwise there wouldn't be such a discussion (since if the high ranking folks only do it one way, and low ranking folks do it the other, it would not be a discussion at all). My initial assumption then should be that some folks have heard of one way and can't imagine another way, or have been told that the other way is "wrong"... although that's a dangerous assumption. Let's go with "just haven't been told the other way by anyone of very high rank".

My job is now to see if I can understand why either way is used.

So, off the hip, right hand back:

1. It is explained that you pull the jo straight back and the josaki does not move off of the opponent, thus you don't create a suki.
2. If it is on the hip, you can still exert quite a bit of force in the tip... much outside the hip and you lose that force so let's assume just on the hip.
3. Thinking from the other side, both my hands are more or less covered from a strike by the sword, the jo being extended beyond my left wrist from the point of view of tachi.

Etc.

Problems:
1. With two hands on the jo, the left hand is a bit over-cranked, it isn't in its strongest position.
2. If I do move the right hand outside the right hip, it's weak.
3. If tachi moves to his right, my jo isn't in as good a position to defend as if it's straight down the centre.

Etc.

Now to the centre position.

1. Almost all two handed work done by the Japanese is done from the centreline.
2. Kendo is done from this centreline, and since generations of intense competition says this is the best position, perhaps I should listen.
3. Equal power applied with both hands so a very strong control of the centreline, similarly, equal defence to either side.

Etc.

Problems

1. If I don't move both hands when pulling back the jo, the josaki comes off of teki, moving both hands means the pull back is a bit slower than if I'm on my hip.
2. left kote slightly more exposed.

etc.

Further possible reason to move to the hip from the centre, and perfectly legitimate.... to distinguish jodo from kendo (small j and k).

These are some quick things to think about if you wish to think about it. Personally, the discussion doesn't bother me... no to be more accurate, personally I don't have the discussion with myself... I'm comfortable doing it either way, and have done it both ways at various times. I currently sit with the back of the jo off my hip. I have never held the jo outside my hip since that makes no sense to me at all, in any Japanese weapon art I've ever done it doesn't make any sense so I don't do it.

If I ever stood in front of an instructor that told me to do it, I would, and might continue to do it if I could prove to myself that it makes sense to me... and I'd determine if it made sense by doing it for several years. At the end of that time if it didn't make sense, I'd likely stop doing it.

I hope that helps.
Kim Taylor

[Newbie]

Does help, however:

The way you say this suggests that nobody has said it to you before, and that you perhaps have some trouble believing it.

Well, yeah. I've always been told that not having it past the hip is wrong. However my curiosity isn't disbelieving but it is genuine.

Two things I don't quite get:

Problems:
1. With two hands on the jo, the left hand is a bit over-cranked, it isn't in its strongest position.
2. If I do move the right hand outside the right hip, it's weak.

1. I don't get what you mean by 'over-cranked'. Either it doesn't feel at all uncomfortable to me or else I'm just too used to it to notice. Or have I missed what you're saying?
2. Why would you move the right hand outside the right hip?

[Kim Taylor]

Does help, however:1. I don't get what you mean by 'over-cranked'. Either it doesn't feel at all uncomfortable to me or else I'm just too used to it to notice. Or have I missed what you're saying?
2. Why would you move the right hand outside the right hip?

Practice, work on it.

Hold the jo in your usual position, have someone walk right through it, putting their hand on the jo so you aren't damaging them, or walk into a wall. does the left hand collapse? Is the right hand driven past the hip or can you stabilize it?

Try it in the centre.

If all is good, fine, if there's a difference, fine.

I can actually stabilize a thrust from one hand held directly out from my shoulder, (it's a niten thing) but beginners have a hell of a time doing it, they never have a hard time figuring out "two hands in centre" and have less figuring out "one hand off the hip". So which is "basic" and which "advanced" by definition? In my case, hands in centre, the further out you get the more body mechanics you have to know to get the same stability.

Keiko. Talking eventually fails without concrete examination.

But all that is irrelevent really, as I mentioned to another fellow somewhere, I'm likely not in your line of instruction and all you really need to do is what your instructor tells you to do. Questioning other ways of doing things is just a distraction until you're far into your practice.

All you really need to know is that there ARE other ways of doing things. You don't need to know how to do it the other way.

Kim Taylor.