Sonkyo - what's that all about?

[kartoffelngeist]

Curiosity (and boredom at work) got me wondering about sonkyo.

From what I can gather, it's fairly unique to kendo, never seen it in any other arts. It's also a fairly odd position.

Does anyone know why we do it, as in where it comes from? Does it represent something clever, or something obvious I haven't thought of?

Just wondering...

[shred_lord]

Wasn't Sonkyo done because you can't do zarei while wearing yoroi?

[verissimus]

... also, why does not Kumdo have it? Is there more to it than just "being different"?

[verissimus]

Wasn't Sonkyo done because you can't do zarei while wearing yoroi?

I am not familiar with Japanese terminology. Can you please explain what zarei and yoroi are?

[shred_lord]

zarei: seated bow
Yoroi: Armour (not Kendo armour)

[Hisham]

What i'm about to say is based on japanese movies but i believe it's based on history, if not then i stand corrected. Whenever there is a scene that portrayed official duels, the protocol before starting the fight would include sonkyo and this without yoroi as a factor.

[Charlie]

I am told by a certain sensei that it comes from Shinto and was considered a holy and sacred position. The back is straight in a manner similar to zazen and may have something to do with aligning one's chakras along the spine. I am told by this sensei that while one is in sonkyo one has to feel that one is connected to the entire universe. So my guess is it predates Buddhism with origins in Shinto/animism, added Buddhist elements, became secular in modern budo, particularly kendo, and is like the mudra - a body positioning with mystic origins currently practiced in a secular way.

[Kenzan]

It's about me ripping two dozen pants and undergarments like banana peels practicing Sonkyo at home in the last year and a half.
:D

[Mr.Tvola]

AFAIK sonkyo is a form of rei. It is present in older martial arts, in much more complicated form, I have seen in Shinto Muso Ryu katas, where both oponents "sonkyoed", put their weapon on front of them and bowed. I think in kendo we have somehow simplified version of this

(something like when the soldier salute - to mark, that they would remove hat and bow, as they did in history).

[Bokushingu]

Thank you for starting this thread; I needed to understand Sonkyo. Also, thank you for the explanations.

[JoonShik]

if you think about it, you cant attack while in sonkyo.

and Kumdo doesnt have it because the Kendo vs. Kumdo thing (but I could be wrong.

[Charlie]

Actually, Joon, I was taught that you should feel so strong in your sonkyo that you can indeed attack from it!

[Lady_Kitsune]

AFAIK sonkyo is a form of rei. It is present in older martial arts, in much more complicated form, I have seen in Shinto Muso Ryu katas, where both oponents "sonkyoed", put their weapon on front of them and bowed. I think in kendo we have somehow simplified version of this

(something like when the soldier salute - to mark, that they would remove hat and bow, as they did in history).


Question:

Do you have a video or pictures of this?

[enkorat]

Sonkyo is originally a word that comes from sumo, no?

I sometimes have problems doing sonkyo, and I've noticed that when my body isn't aligned, my balance is off, my knees are stiff, my body is cold, or my posture isn't correct, I fall over. Usually at the most inopportune moments too.

Once, because I was curious and few people were around before the start of practice so I could make a fool of myself in relative privacy, I tried cutting kote beginning and ending in sonkyo, similar to the breathing exercises we do, but just one motion. So kind of like start in sonkyo and kamae, rise up from sonkyo at the same time starting the backswing for big kote, so that when I was fully standing up I was at the top of the backswing, and then taking a step forward and cutting kote but instead of stopping at kote, going into sonkoyo.

I noticed that if I didn't have good balance and posture cutting, I'd fall over when I reached sonkyo, and that the compression on my diaphram and subsequent dictation over my breathing pattern mirrored the breathing/kiai timing pattern in relationship to the cut.

My legs started to burn too.... its was very challenging.... A nidan saw me do this and he came by to see what I was doing, and I told him and he tried a few times and he was like "wow, its hard..."

So ya... don't know what that contributes to the thread, but I thought I'd put it out there, its not an official exercise that I've been taught...

[Kapplow]

Actually, Joon, I was taught that you should feel so strong in your sonkyo that you can indeed attack from it!


Here here! I remember Kataoka sensei saying(paraphrasing) that sonkyo is like rei but since you're at a dangerous maai you must be on guard at all times during sonkyo. When you stand up, your kamae should be at it's best without the need for adjustment.

[R Stroud]

if you think about it, you cant attack while in sonkyo.

Sure you can. When I started kendo in the late '70s and into the '80s you started taikai from sankyo. The start of the match was when the shinpan said hajime, and you were a valid target in sankyo. Now of course you have to stand up before you can attack, but back then if you launched from your sankyo and hit a good point (men for example) it was yuko datotsu (valid strike) and the flags would go up.

I saw many of these at taikai then and have done it even now in the dojo to show people how to be ready in shiai.

I don't remember exactly when the change was made, but have always missed it, along with ashi barai and other more "interesting" aspects of keiko.

[jmarsten]

[

I don't remember exactly when the change was made, but have always missed it, along with ashi barai and other more "interesting" aspects of keiko.[/QUOTE]

The actual change was one of those unwritten rules. It came about when the distance was increased. As you recall we started with shinai crossed in those days. Once the distance was increased it made it considerably harder to do. Although I don't recall ever seeing it in print that you have to stand up first it was and has been conveyed verbally at the FIK seminars. The closest thing is chapter 2 article 8 which states the procedures for entering and leaving shiai-jo of shiai-sha and their manners including rei may be specified at each tournament.

[Koki]

I don't think there is any change in regulations regarding "attack from sonkyo"

If you think you can do get a valid ippon from sonkyo... go right ahead.

If the aite is an experienced kenshi, your strike probably won't get anywhere. So i guess, maybe it works for children and kyu division?

[xvikingx]

Just wondering...

Well the word does not come from sumo as someone suggested. It's funny, a couple of months back a friend and I were talking about this word and it's origin/meaning. I've been interested since but have not found anything too solid.
It's simply a squatting type of bow. It has morphed over time and you see it in things like sumo and kendo. Koryu like Tendo-ryu also have sonkyo which are performed differently. You go into a squat and then down onto one knee (the left) with the left side of your body facing forward, in a sort of hanmi position. Your hands rest on your thighs and you bow with your upper-body, lowering your head (not to the floor, just a slight angle) and sliding your left hand towards the knee. You may have seen something similar performed in samurai flicks when a soldier addresses a gerneral.
The word sokyo 蹲踞(居) is comprised of 蹲 & 踞 which both mean to crouch, squat, to lower one's waist, and in some cases just to sit (踞/居). In the dictionary they also related 蹲 tsukubai to squatting in front of a stone dish to wash your hands before entering a tea room.
Alright that killed some time, back to work. That's all I have got for you.

[JoonShik]

Sure you can. When I started kendo in the late '70s and into the '80s you started taikai from sankyo. The start of the match was when the shinpan said hajime, and you were a valid target in sankyo. Now of course you have to stand up before you can attack, but back then if you launched from your sankyo and hit a good point (men for example) it was yuko datotsu (valid strike) and the flags would go up.

I saw many of these at taikai then and have done it even now in the dojo to show people how to be ready in shiai.

I don't remember exactly when the change was made, but have always missed it, along with ashi barai and other more "interesting" aspects of keiko.

I saw a recent video of high school kids attack from sonkyo, but no point was given, partly because both of them went for men, but still, it is hard to attack from sonkyo.

[yoda-waza]

Sonkyo = crouching tiger

Not really, but the intent is the same at the start of shiai. The neutral squatting position is a prelude - the stare down before the match. We are trained in our dojo to immediately advance forward from sonkyo to intimidate, to fend off and to communicate your zanshin. Those that retreat or hesitate are doomed.

[Kenzan]

Sonkyo = crouching tiger

Not really, but the intent is the same at the start of shiai. The neutral squatting position is a prelude - the stare down before the match. We are trained in our dojo to immediately advance forward from sonkyo to intimidate, to fend off and to communicate your zanshin. Those that retreat or hesitate are doomed.

What about someone big, like me?
I don't retreat, in fact I'm pretty aggressive. So what happens when you have a gigantic lumbering wall of ape-shit moving toward you?
:silly:
:D

[yoda-waza]

What about someone big, like me?
I don't retreat, in fact I'm pretty aggressive. So what happens when you have a gigantic lumbering wall of ape-shit moving toward you?
:silly:
:D

Lumbering is not a waza. The more gigantic, the harder they fall. :smoker:

[Kenshi]

Wasnt this discussed before, and pretty recently too? Its origins probably come from China and its thought to represent a rei to someone of higher status (Like a soldier to a general I guess). There is archealogical evidence of a sonkyo-like position in Japan from the 6th (?) century.

What it is now - in terms of things like kendo, sumo, and some other MAs - is a mutual rei and preparatory position. Of-course, you can add any mystical explanations on top of that if you so wish.

Someone mentioned about standing up before attacking in kendo.... thats the 1st time ive ever heard that... perhaps its only your dojo? Or its a beginners shiai or something?

[xvikingx]

So what happens when you have a gigantic lumbering wall of ape-shit moving toward you?
A nice hard tsuki to stop you dead in your tracks and make a believer out of you.

[Mr.Tvola]

Question:

Do you have a video or pictures of this?

Something like this http://www.tenshin.cz/images/vercorin-2005a/album/html/P10101047.jpg or this http://www.tenshin.cz/images/sevenum-2002/album/html/13.jpg. I heve seen something similar in other koryu, but better ask some koryu practitioner....

[JSchmidt]

What about someone big, like me?
I don't retreat, in fact I'm pretty aggressive. So what happens when you have a gigantic lumbering wall of ape-shit moving toward you?
:silly:
:D

Hit him over the head?

[Reiver]

Sonkyo can be regarded as a sort of prayer, or of dedicating the following match to the gods, as it were. It's the calm before the storm breaks. It's something that is found in many warrior cultures. Roman gladiators used to offer a prayer to Nemesis before stepping into the arena. In medieval times, priests were usually on hand to offer prayers before the fighting started, and so on.

It is also a good way to check out an opponent before the match officially begins. I say offivially, because a match in reality starts as soon as you step into the shiajo and rei to your opponent.

I've had my fair share of the sonkyo bombers, and it is useful in dojo sessions from time to time to keep people awake. Since I also practice Iaido, and thus quite comfortable close to the ground, I can keep low and get some cracking do-uchi if they attack from sonkyo.

As for "big ape-shits" lumbering towards you, there are many options.

1) As has been mentioned, hit them on the head. (This is in the best traditions of kendo)

2) Again, as has been suggested Tsuki them. Usually best before
they start lumbering, otherwise you may be flattened anyway and have a broken shinai into the bargain.

3) Stand there and be run over. (This is the best one for illustrating what happens to stupid people:dead:)

4) Run away (Possibly the most intelligent response, but is definitely not in the spirit of kendo)

Speaking as one of the big ape-shits (6' 2" and 17 stone), I tend to not to charge willy-nilly anyway, as experienced opponents can take advantage of my momentum. I try to adopt the philosophy of the 800lb gorilla, I sit, stand or move wherever I damn well please. Pity it doesn't work when fencing 8th dans though.:laugh:

[Big One]

When I go into Sonkyo, my concentration increase. Also, sonkyo let me know about my opponent. If I see a shitty Sonkyo, I know that person doesn't have strong lower body.

[Kenzan]

Lumbering is not a waza. The more gigantic, the harder they fall. :smoker:

Ahahaha...Damn..that's so true!
:D

[Manuka]

Perhaps traditionally it was Samurai taking a quick dump before battle.
This way no one can beat the $hit out of you, because it is already gone.

:D

[Hisham]

Perhaps traditionally it was Samurai taking a quick dump before battle.
This way no one can beat the $hit out of you, because it is already gone.

:D

Or thanking the earth godess and asking for her support in the duel.

[rfoxmich]

Ebihara sensei, in one email to me wrote the following about sonkyo.
I believe it's a wonderful insight into why we do this:

"When 2 Kenshi are facing at "Kyu Ho no Maai" (Nine Steps distance) , the
first bow is for Otagai no Rei (bow to respect each other) then advance
forward to do (Son Kyo no Rei) , this is a ceremony "Rei" to the providence(
God) (Universe), for one's mind (Kokoro) to blend in to providence and the
same time acquire "Ki" to the body by doing so. It is called "Shou Ten no
Ki"
When someone properly executes "Son Kyo", it is the moment of most dignified
and purification of the one's mind and the body. At this instant, there is no
existence of one and one's opponent, only the two swords exist in the
universe. I think, this "Shou Ten no Ki " is the final goal of kendo's
practice and all about Kendo itself.
This is the feeling one can only feel and begin to understand after years of
practice kendo with proper "Son Kyo". If the one is not properly doing "Son
Kyo" from the early stage, one will never be able to feel this feeling no
matter how many years one practices. I think, properly executed "Son Kyo" is
the most beautiful sight in Kendo.
Whoever is expressing an idea of eliminating "Son Kyo" is as an equal to
saying that "I don't know much about Kendo"."

Ron

[hyuna]

From what I can gather, it's fairly unique to kendo, never seen it in any other arts.
they do sonkyo in sumo too, don't they (regardless of where it originated from)?

[Kenshi]

[ tired ]　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　

[EcoRI]

[QUOTE=kartoffelngeist;272568]
From what I can gather, it's fairly unique to kendo, never seen it in any other arts. It's also a fairly odd position.QUOTE]

As stated by a few few here already, there are a few koryu (to my knowledge) that do sonkyo prior to kata training. Tatsumi Ryu do it almost the same as Kendo, and Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu have a different version of it which seems to have certain similaritys to Sonkyo performed in Kendo.

[Reiver]

Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu uses sonkyo as well.

Also in iaido, some kamae, such as sonkyo chudan are used in some forms. It just means that you are lowered (kneeling or otherwise significantly lower than standing) when you assume the kamae.

[John Seavitt]

Somebody's already made the point about Shinto Muso-ryu, along with the linked photos. The sonkyo-like position (two different ones) appear within Kazari, the formal opening and closing to training kata. The first accompanies the placement of weapons on the ground in a neutral position, and the second a bow between practitioners. Each is a bit different from kendo sonkyo (and from each other), as are the sonkyo-like bow between (at least several) koryu.

I'd guess that the suggestion that sonkyo "comes from" sumo reflect the relative age of that tradition.

John

[kartoffelngeist]

Guess I was wrong about it being unique to kendo. Interesting stuff though...

[Charlie]

Ebihara sensei, in one email to me wrote the following about sonkyo.
I believe it's a wonderful insight into why we do this:

"When 2 Kenshi are facing at "Kyu Ho no Maai" (Nine Steps distance) , the
first bow is for Otagai no Rei (bow to respect each other) then advance
forward to do (Son Kyo no Rei) , this is a ceremony "Rei" to the providence(
God) (Universe), for one's mind (Kokoro) to blend in to providence and the
same time acquire "Ki" to the body by doing so. It is called "Shou Ten no
Ki"
When someone properly executes "Son Kyo", it is the moment of most dignified
and purification of the one's mind and the body. At this instant, there is no
existence of one and one's opponent, only the two swords exist in the
universe. I think, this "Shou Ten no Ki " is the final goal of kendo's
practice and all about Kendo itself.
This is the feeling one can only feel and begin to understand after years of
practice kendo with proper "Son Kyo". If the one is not properly doing "Son
Kyo" from the early stage, one will never be able to feel this feeling no
matter how many years one practices. I think, properly executed "Son Kyo" is
the most beautiful sight in Kendo.
Whoever is expressing an idea of eliminating "Son Kyo" is as an equal to
saying that "I don't know much about Kendo"."

Ron

That's the one I was referring to in my post! I have this clipped and glued into my budo notebook.

[Hisham]

Whoever is expressing an idea of eliminating "Son Kyo" is as an equal to
saying that "I don't know much about Kendo"."

This part is inflammatory towards kumdo.

[kartoffelngeist]

This part is inflammatory towards kumdo.

Inflammatory towards kumdo?

[Charlie]

Because kumdo doesn't have sonkyo. Hisham, I'm sure the speaker was only referring to kendo and not kumdo.

[Kenshi]

Because kumdo doesn't have sonkyo. Hisham, I'm sure the speaker was only referring to kendo and not kumdo.

Hah hah, always the nice guy! You are so cute I want to wrap you up in something soft and feed you ice-cream.

[Hisham]

Charlie, with all do respect to Ebihara sensei but what i quoted is indirectly saying that kumdo people don't know much about kumdo, of course if kumdo isn't kendo then i'd understand.

[tattooedasshole]

This part is inflammatory towards kumdo.
And??? Wouldn't the fact that Koreans (in general) are trying to take stuff like sonkyo out of kendo, be inflammatory towards kendo? I'm sure that sonkyo wasn't added because "it looks good". So then, what right does kumdo have to take it out?

[Hisham]

And??? Wouldn't the fact that Koreans (in general) are trying to take stuff like sonkyo out of kendo, be inflammatory towards kendo? I'm sure that sonkyo wasn't added because "it looks good". So then, what right does kumdo have to take it out?

This isn't a kendo vs kumdo argument at least it wasn't my intent to create one, the point that was made in that quote is you have sonkyo you "know much about kendo", you don't have it then "you don't know much about kendo", maybe at a certain high level of kendo sonkyo might add something that low ranked people (or unranked people like me) don't know about, still i commented because i found that sentence unrealistic of course to my limited kendo viewpoint that's all.


PS:i learned kendo in a dojo not a dojang.

[Gideon]

This part is inflammatory towards kumdo.

Certainly one possible interpretation of what he's saying. As an aside, I'm not sure kumdo can be inflamed towards a statement like this - practitioners may be, but if that's the case, I'd allow them to state their complaints (and here I'm assuming from your statement saying that you learned kendo in a dojo means you are still in a dojo and not practicing kumdo). If you are offended by this, perhaps it's worth a letter, call, or email to the author to convey your opinion such that it can be defended/explained.

*shrug* By flatly stating that something is inflamatory, although it might not be your intent, it certainly invites a response from those that disagree with you. Especially when you are stepping in for someone else. (I'm not sure if you agree with your own statement or not).

[yoda-waza]

Ebihara-sensei's explanation is, in part, what distinguishes Kendo from sport. The "feeling" in sonkyo he refers to is integral to the practice of Kendo and he thinks that without it kendo is devoid of the deeper meaning in its true practice - as it might be in a sport-centric version. Inferring that this explanation of sonkyo is a negative characterization of kumdo is off the mark - it is rather the characterization of the reader that implies an insult where there isn't any.

[tattooedasshole]

This isn't a kendo vs kumdo argument at least it wasn't my intent to create one, the point that was made in that quote is you have sonkyo you "know much about kendo", you don't have it then "you don't know much about kendo", maybe at a certain high level of kendo sonkyo might add something that low ranked people (or unranked people like me) don't know about, still i commented because i found that sentence unrealistic of course to my limited kendo viewpoint that's all.


PS:i learned kendo in a dojo not a dojang.
I couldn't give a shit about kumdo/kendo debates. Same shit, different pile, as far as I'm concerned. My statement was to show that if kumdo has the right to be inflamed about the statement, then kendo has the righ to be inflamed over the changing of the art....but again, I don't care.
I think that part of the point of the quote in question, is that you can tell alot about someones kendo based only on how they go into, and out of, sonkyo. I know that for me, if my oppenet in shiai goes into sonkyo lackadaisicaly, they will typicaly fight the same way. If they go into sonkyo slowly, with seme from the beggining, I've got a good fight on my hands.

[Hisham]

Certainly one possible interpretation of what he's saying. As an aside, I'm not sure kumdo can be inflamed towards a statement like this - practitioners may be, but if that's the case, I'd allow them to state their complaints (and here I'm assuming from your statement saying that you learned kendo in a dojo means you are still in a dojo and not practicing kumdo). If you are offended by this, perhaps it's worth a letter, call, or email to the author to convey your opinion such that it can be defended/explained.


I'm not in a dojo anymore, that's why i used the past tense and no i'm not offended by having an exchange of thoughts with other people.



(I'm not sure if you agree with your own statement or not).

I explained what that sentence could convey since as we all know kumdo doesn't have sonkyo. As far as agreeing or not i'll make up my mind when i have more experience (that is if i get to train in a dojo again but that's another story).



Ebihara-sensei's explanation is, in part, what distinguishes Kendo from sport. The "feeling" in sonkyo he refers to is integral to the practice of Kendo and he thinks that without it kendo is devoid of the deeper meaning in its true practice - as it might be in a sport-centric version.

Do you think that the "feeling" in sonkyo can only be experienced in that posture? If so then kumdo is a sport-centric version of kendo based on how Ebihara sensei sees sonkyo.

[Hisham]

This part is inflammatory towards kumdo.

I should've used "could be" instead of "is" in this sentence.

[ogogo]

pardon me for intruding on this thread, as i am quite an inexperienced beginner but this is an open forum is it not? ^^

when I read that I too immediately saw the statement as an affront to kendo. It just seemed out of place. There was no reason for that statement in an explanation of the actual practice of sonkyo.

Now it seems to me that this can be taken in a couple of ways.

First, as has been mentioned,is that by taking out sonkyo it is the art of kendo that was actually insulted first and thus kumdo is left open to reprisal. This certainly makes sense but is sonkyo the only way to feel this feeling? It seems unlikely to me, and I may be insulting tradition here for which I apologize, that a mere physical position encapsulates shou ten no ki. Certainly physical positions have long held important posts in many cultures (prayer, lotus, etc.) but as far as I have studied, I dont think that any of them require only that position for its purpose to be served. One can pray without the typical clasping of hands together and one can meditate without entering lotus. If it is the spirit of the position and not the position itself, then why if the position is taken out does the spirit leave as well? I apologize if I have overstepped by boundaries in this matter, I'm just musing.

A second way seems to be "lets them be". There have been a wide range of Kumdo vs Kendo arguments, mostly centering on the physical aspects of the art. But I suppose one could say that though the physical motions are the same the metaphysical pursuits are different. Then this leaves no conflict in the statement by Ebihara sensei. You may not understand kendo without sonkyo, but that doesn't mean you dont understand kumdo. I dont know how I feel about this stance as though it may sidestep many controversial issues, by doing so it also causes a greater rift between the two (one?) arts.

So how do I feel about it? I dont know. Just some random thoughts that I hope to spur further discussion.

Thank you for taking time out to read this. It was kind of written on a whim so excuse any mistakes I may have made. And once I can make my thoughts clearer, perhaps I'll post again.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

"Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind."

:cool:

Tool - Lateralus btw...

[yoda-waza]

...Do you think that the "feeling" in sonkyo can only be experienced in that posture? If so then kumdo is a sport-centric version of kendo based on how Ebihara sensei sees sonkyo.

Sonkyo and the "feeling" is Ebihara-sensei's connection. I don't presume to know how others experience the "feeling" let alone what "posture" they are in. I was simply pointing out that the "feeling" distinguishes kendo from sport. Just look at the ridiculous narcissistic theatrics in the sport of Olympic fencing. It'd be sad day if kendo degenerated into that. Maybe sonkyo is an artifact but it has value and meaning to me personally. Your thoughts may be different. So the world turns.

[shred_lord]

Sonkyo and the "feeling" is Ebihara-sensei's connection. I don't presume to know how others experience the "feeling" let alone what "posture" they are in. I was simply pointing out that the "feeling" distinguishes kendo from sport. Just look at the ridiculous narcissistic theatrics in the sport of Olympic fencing. It'd be sad day if kendo degenerated into that. Maybe sonkyo is an artifact but it has value and meaning to me personally. Your thoughts may be different. So the world turns.This is why it is also good that over celebratory "zanshin"* will deny you the point and overt displays of celebration can cause the judges to take the point back.

It helps keep us straight. If your body has to act neutrally after ippon then the mind will follow. This cultivates the mindset that finds the excesses of sport fencing vulgar, I think.

*thus not really zanshin at all

[Hisham]

Just look at the ridiculous narcissistic theatrics in the sport of Olympic fencing. It'd be sad day if kendo degenerated into that.
I agree.



Maybe sonkyo is an artifact but it has value and meaning to me personally.


I didn't say it wasn't for me, though i won't let it be the reason for not training in a dojang for instance, here of course i'm talking about myself.



Your thoughts may be different. So the world turns.

Sure.

[hyuna]

One can pray without the typical clasping of hands together and one can meditate without entering lotus.
in the quote, ebihara sensei himself says that sonkyo is ceremony.

if you remove everything that is unique to kendo, you may end up with some fundamentally true thing. but, by definition, it will not be kendo.

i take sensei to mean that the practice of sonkyo is fundamental to kendo. to the degree that this is true, it doesn't matter if there is another way to have that feeling or not -- if you remove it, you will no longer be doing kendo.

that does not mean that the thing you are doing that does not have sonkyo is illegitimate in some grand sense, but as one removes things that are particular to kendo, the name "kendo" becomes less applicable.