Kendo tattoo

[Alison2805]

I got myself a treat while Im here in Montreal! I have always wanted a small tattoo I have fixed, but it turns out that it was too difficult. So I decided to cover it instead. This is what I decided on in the end:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/Alison2805/IMGP1865.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/Alison2805/IMGP1864.jpg


Theres no way in hell I would ever get the same old fish/flower/dove etc. that everyone else has. The origonal tattoo meant "to be different" so I figure it still does.

[Kenzan]

You..are.....HARD...CORE!!!
:eek::eek:

Looks great!!
:)

[rottunpunk]

nice job they did there
i cant see where the old one was. under the keikogi?
my tattoo (though not kendo related) is uber personal to me too.

by the way, be prepared for the inevitable smutty comments ;)
:p

[Alison2805]

hahaha!! You know, it didnt really hurt.

Smutty?? hey, I can handle that. Youve got a gecko, right? Thats awesome. Youre right, the old one is under the gi.

[Wongman]

that is a very nice tat.

[Kenzan]

by the way, be prepared for the inevitable smutty comments ;)
:p

Such as... my..my! what an interesting location for viewing artwork!
:cheeky:
:D

[rottunpunk]

hahaha!! You know, it didnt really hurt.

Smutty?? hey, I can handle that. Youve got a gecko, right? Thats awesome. Youre right, the old one is under the gi.


mine didnt either (well, the outline of the head did a bit at first)
though my foot (and leg) kept uncontrollably twithcing-how embarrassing

aye true, you are the oringinal smutty samuraette of course

yeah mines of my first gecko (she was alive when i had it done, but now its like a memory to her)
it was done part freehand too, wouldnt change it for the world
:p

[pgsmith]

Nicely done Alison!
Might I also compliment you on being the first smutty samuraiette to bare some skin for our viewing pleasure! :D

Thanks very much!

[lucy]

Wow, that's awesome! :) Like it very much. Where is the original picture from? The one the tattoo is fashioned after?

[MikeW]

I might have missed this somewhere Alison, but what did the original one look like? You should post a before pic as well. They did a nice job on the tat btw. I have a small one as well on my ring finger with the kanji for dou.

[Ignatz]

Whoooo Hooooo. I see your berry button.

[Rob W.]

Nice, nice job. I love tattoos, I need to get mine finished this fall, but right now anything left over from the paycheck goes into bogu-fund. You make me jealous!

Only downside is no bathing in conservative or holy bathhouses or springs when you visit Japan. Bummer.

[lucy]

Only downside is no bathing in conservative or holy bathhouses or springs when you visit Japan. Bummer.

Maybe they'll rethink once they see the tat... :D

[Fonsz]

Very nice belly, eeeh, I mean button aaah, skin mmmmmmm, I mean tattoo.
I wonder how it will hold up when you're around the age that you should be hachi dan?

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

Nice one!!! congrats

I´ve never fully convinced myself about getting a tattoo.- but I´ve got some ideas...

[Paburo]

niceeeeeeeeeeeee, but where exactly is the other tattoo?? show us! :D

rottunpunk! you should start a 'show your tattoo pictures in bogu or whatever' thread! :D

[Alison2805]

Heres a shot of it which just the stencil:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/Alison2805/IMGP1850.jpg sorry its not terribly clear, my camera blurs a lot.

The origonal was just a pic I found on the internet, I have no idea who's artwork it was to tell the truth.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/Alison2805/kendobanner9.gif

[Alison2805]

Nicely done Alison!
Might I also compliment you on being the first smutty samuraiette to bare some skin for our viewing pleasure! :D

Thanks very much!

LOL! Youre welcome! :laugh:

[Alison2805]

Very nice belly, eeeh, I mean button aaah, skin mmmmmmm, I mean tattoo.
I wonder how it will hold up when you're around the age that you should be hachi dan?

Ah, well by that time Im sure I wont be prancing around in bikinis anymore... I hope.

My brother reckons the pics make me look like Ive got a beer belly :eek:

[JSchmidt]

Tattoos still carry a lot of stigma in Japan and could be a hindrance for practising there.

[Newbie]

Ali, that's fantastic!! BTW, when you gonna get yo ass back to Adelaide to visit so I can actually see it properly?

[Alison2805]

True, but only if they see it!

[Alison2805]

Ali, that's fantastic!! BTW, when you gonna get yo ass back to Adelaide to visit so I can actually see it properly?

Thankyou!

Im not going to be back downunder til at least the end of October. I may not end up over your way til sometime early next year unfortunately. But when I do, get the sake ready!

[JoDuncan]

I always said that if i get buff i'll be gettin me some tats.

I'd quite fancy getting a tattoo of a beard.... under my beard

V nice by the way.

[Newbie]

Make sure you're not working the next day this time. We only got through half a bottle! Argh!

[dohrt]

1) You can never quit kendo, ever. Every time you shower, enjoy intimacy with a lover, or even change clothes, you'll be reminded that you NEED TO GO TO KEIKO !!!!!! I mean, what could you possibly turn the tattoo into now if you change your mind about kendo? You're a kendo lifer now!!

2) You have a threatening reminder to any emotional partner in your life that, if they are allowed to get up close and personal to you, should they break your heart or otherwise misstep in your life, they will receive ippon !

3) I think you have a long, LONG way to go before you can boast of any kind of beer belly.

3) You are one of the good ones. I salute you. That is one of the coolest tattoos I've ever seen.

[Kenzan]

Tattoos still carry a lot of stigma in Japan and could be a hindrance for practising there.

Really?
Do you think that one would be banned from training if someone saw the Tat in the locker room?
It was my impression that this was really only an issue for public Onsen, and not so much an issue for Gaijin?

is that right/wrong?
What's the dealy-o?

I have several tats meself, and am planning to train in sushi-land someday...

[tattooedasshole]

I got myself a treat while Im here in Montreal! I have always wanted a small tattoo I have fixed, but it turns out that it was too difficult. So I decided to cover it instead. This is what I decided on in the end:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/Alison2805/IMGP1865.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/Alison2805/IMGP1864.jpg


Theres no way in hell I would ever get the same old fish/flower/dove etc. that everyone else has. The origonal tattoo meant "to be different" so I figure it still does.
Nice tat. What shop did you go to in Montreal? I know a few of the tattoo shops out there.

[lucy]

You know, I always thought tattoos were kinda gross and that I would never, ever get one. Now you got me thinking... :D

[Seiza_Seizure]

You should have a got a Sumo instead. Atleast then if you do happen to gain weight, your Sumo will look the part. Congrats on you tatt. Any room for more colour? Maybe a Red Do?

[kuzu70]

I don't think a white woman with a kendo tattoo will be prohibited from practicing kendo, going to onsen, etc. in Japan. It is not a big deal.

[Lady_Kitsune]

I love your tat... It's really cool.. Now I want one!!! lol

About the one who said in Japan had issues with tats, you're wrong they have a long term culture of tats in Japan, not only that they have a style of tattoos that you can not see in other parts of the globe. They had issueas but that was in the past.

Here's a link for you with the history and some pics.

Japanse Tattoo art (http://www.artelino.com/articles/japanese_tattoo_art.asp)

Irezumi on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irezumi)

[AlexM]

Really?
Do you think that one would be banned from training if someone saw the Tat in the locker room?
It was my impression that this was really only an issue for public Onsen, and not so much an issue for Gaijin?

is that right/wrong?
What's the dealy-o?

I have several tats meself, and am planning to train in sushi-land someday...

Cops don't like tatoos. If you want to practice with them (and who doesn't?)they might not even let you in the door if they see a visible tatoo. There's too much of an association with Yakuza.

[JSchmidt]

The kendo crowd in general tends to be very conservative. Sure, if you get invited (from overseas), it'll be fine and you can play the gaijin-card, but further introductions/invitations might prove tricky.

[JSchmidt]

I love your tat... It's really cool.. Now I want one!!! lol

About the one who said in Japan had issues with tats, you're wrong they have a long term culture of tats in Japan, not only that they have a style of tattoos that you can not see in other parts of the globe. They had issueas but that was in the past.

Here's a link for you with the history and some pics.

Japanse Tattoo art (http://www.artelino.com/articles/japanese_tattoo_art.asp)

Irezumi on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irezumi)


You should read your own links:


. In the eyes of an average Japanese a tattoo is considered a mark of a yakuza - a member of the Japanese mafia - or a macho symbol of members of the lower classes.

[Kenzan]

Cops don't like tatoos. If you want to practice with them (and who doesn't?)they might not even let you in the door if they see a visible tatoo. There's too much of an association with Yakuza.

Huh....I would have hoped that they realize a Gaijin probably wasn't the local Oyabun for the prefecture....





.....or am I.....?
:D

[nikozamo]

i want to get a tattoo but i dont know what kind of... im thinking this for more than 2 years... and a little japanese/kendo tattoo is a posibility... but i will think about a little more ne?

[Fonsz]

n the eyes of an average Japanese a tattoo is considered a mark of a yakuza - a member of the Japanese mafia - or a macho symbol of members of the lower classes.
Well if I'm in Spain during the holiday season you can see a lot of these. Usually they're Britons and don't wear a shirt so you can't help but admire the art work of said macho symbols. Some are very intricate, but macho symbols none the less.:eek:

[AlexM]

Huh....I would have hoped that they realize a Gaijin probably wasn't the local Oyabun for the prefecture....


Let me put it to you this way:

If I were a cop I would not be impressed by some idiot foreigner showing up and not knowing that his visible tatoos are associated with Yakuza. It's a good excuse to turn away someone that will probably slow down practice.

The point is not that you might be a Yakuza, the point is that you'd be an ignorant twat.

How do you think it looks for the police to let tatooed foreigners into their place to train? The other kendoka might understand, but their non-kendoka colleagues probably won't and they'll politely send you on your way elsewhere.

[Alison2805]

1) You can never quit kendo, ever. Every time you shower, enjoy intimacy with a lover, or even change clothes, you'll be reminded that you NEED TO GO TO KEIKO !!!!!! I mean, what could you possibly turn the tattoo into now if you change your mind about kendo? You're a kendo lifer now!!

2) You have a threatening reminder to any emotional partner in your life that, if they are allowed to get up close and personal to you, should they break your heart or otherwise misstep in your life, they will receive ippon !

3) I think you have a long, LONG way to go before you can boast of any kind of beer belly.

3) You are one of the good ones. I salute you. That is one of the coolest tattoos I've ever seen.

"you must spread rep around..." yada yada..

Thanks mate, youre awesome! :)

[Alison2805]

Let me put it to you this way:

If I were a cop I would not be impressed by some idiot foreigner showing up and not knowing that his visible tatoos are associated with Yakuza. It's a good excuse to turn away someone that will probably slow down practice.

The point is not that you might be a Yakuza, the point is that you'd be an ignorant twat.

How do you think it looks for the police to let tatooed foreigners into their place to train? The other kendoka might understand, but their non-kendoka colleagues probably won't and they'll politely send you on your way elsewhere.

I probably wouldnt want to take the chance. Even if they let you train, they could possibly make it the nastiest training possible.

[Lady_Kitsune]

You should read your own links:

But not all of them!!

Body art in Japan is more and more accepeted nowadays... And the artists are even more and more famous now. I know one that even visit the Miami Ink studio, the only problem is that I don't remember his name, cos I always was bad memorizing names.

[nikozamo]

the matter here is a lot of the japanese senseis dont like ''gaijin body accesories'' like tattoos, piercings, beard (hahahaha) and that kind of stuff... iwakiri sensei in budai always said to me take of that piercing! is ''dangerous'' maybe is a little right, but other senseis just say it because is not ''japanese style of kendoka'' or maybe miyazaki sensei one day will appear with beard and a piercing like me? :D

[JSchmidt]

But not all of them!!

So, you didn't read the links you provided?. Or are you just ignoring the bits you didn't agree with?

[John Seavitt]

Body art in Japan is more and more accepeted nowadays...

Not in the circles relevant to this forum, as it turns out.

John

[Kenzan]

Let me put it to you this way:

If I were a cop I would not be impressed by some idiot foreigner showing up and not knowing that his visible tatoos are associated with Yakuza. It's a good excuse to turn away someone that will probably slow down practice.

The point is not that you might be a Yakuza, the point is that you'd be an ignorant twat.

How do you think it looks for the police to let tatooed foreigners into their place to train? The other kendoka might understand, but their non-kendoka colleagues probably won't and they'll politely send you on your way elsewhere.

So based upon what you wrote, we can assume that:
1. Japanese policemen assume that all foreigners are idiots.
2. That all foreigners in Japan as expected to be well-versed in Japanese culture.
3. All foreigners would slow down Keiko in a Japanese Dojo.

While from what I have read about certain Japanese city police this possibly could be true, but I have a hard time accepting that this would be considered the norm at other Dojos in Japan.

[hl1978]

Not in the circles relevant to this forum, as it turns out.

John

Plenty of sento still don't allow admittance to people with tattoos, even spa's like La Qua have signs posted.

[Seiza_Seizure]

Body art in Japan is more and more accepeted nowadays... And the artists are even more and more famous now. I know one that even visit the Miami Ink studio, the only problem is that I don't remember his name, cos I always was bad memorizing names.[/quote]

I don't agree. Japan is still very conservative. The Japanese may out of politeness not tell you they disapprove, but deep down they do.

[Kenzan]

Plenty of sento still don't allow admittance to people with tattoos, even spa's like La Qua have signs posted.

Huh...So let me get this straight...

Tatoos, a form of self expression; in Japan, are a no go for entry to most places or organizations, and is considered criminal behavior, at the very least indicating lower social standing?

But having multiple teenage mistress while racking up millions of Yen in short term loan debt, gambling incessantly and chain smoking like chimneys whilst surrounded on all sides by advertisements for porn and Soaplands seems to be ok...

[AlexM]

So based upon what you wrote, we can assume that:
1. Japanese policemen assume that all foreigners are idiots.
2. That all foreigners in Japan as expected to be well-versed in Japanese culture.
3. All foreigners would slow down Keiko in a Japanese Dojo.

While from what I have read about certain Japanese city police this possibly could be true, but I have a hard time accepting that this would be considered the norm at other Dojos in Japan.

1. Yes, that's exactly what I said, bravo.

2. This is very basic cultural stuff and a "must-know" if you practice kendo. Strange as it may seem, some of us actually try to know things about foreign cultures and customs before we travel so we don't wind up being called "Ugly Americans" (a terrible slur as tourists of all nationalities can be absolutely clueless and crass). Ignorance of a local culture is not an excuse for anything.

3. Most foreigners would slow down a basic police practice (at any dojo worth its salt). Whether or not you believe that is up to you.

I tell you what, just go practice at a police dojo in Japan without covering your tatoos and see if you get invited back. Ok?

[Kenzan]

1. Yes, that's exactly what I said, bravo.

It appears as if you seem to agree with that philosophy.
-and I take it you don't think all that much of Kendo outside of Japan?

Yes? No?

[JSchmidt]

Huh...So let me get this straight...

Tatoos, a form of self expression; in Japan, are a no go for entry to most places or organizations, and is considered criminal behavior, at the very least indicating lower social standing?

But having multiple teenage mistress while racking up millions of Yen in short term loan debt, gambling incessantly and chain smoking like chimneys whilst surrounded on all sides by advertisements for porn and Soaplands seems to be ok...

As you expressed so eloquently, stereotyping is alive and well in both the US and Japan...

[Kenzan]

As you expressed so eloquently, stereotyping is alive and well in both the US and Japan...

Kenzan sees what you did there....:D

Schopenhauer taught me the best!
:laugh:

[Lady_Kitsune]

As you expressed so eloquently, stereotyping is alive and well in both the US and Japan...

Aparently......


I don't agree. Japan is still very conservative. The Japanese may out of politeness not tell you they disapprove, but deep down they do.

And again the old "japanese conservative" stereotype if it was like that, no one in Tokyo shall exist at all, or those guys dress like gothic dolls you think they are conservative at all?

[JSchmidt]

Aparently......



And again the old "japanese conservative" stereotype if it was like that, no one in Tokyo shall exist at all, or those guys dress like gothic dolls you think they are conservative at all?

How many of those gothic dolls do you think practices kendo?

[rottunpunk]

alisons tattoo is on her belly yes?
so the only thing she has to worry about is saunas etc. it will be covered in kendo
that ad shes a irl, she can get away with a lot more, however conservative the japanese

perhaps it was out of politeness, but none of the japanese sensei said anything about my tattoo when they were last over.
and some of them are rather elderly
:p

[Lady_Kitsune]

What that has to do with the subject... you said people in Japan, not people who practice kendo that happenes to be japanese... You are the one talking generic, let's keep talking generic.

No, people in Japan had change a LOT in the last 10 years or so, so no they are more open minded than you think or again, things like we see in Tokyo like for example, Gothic Lolitas and male gothic dolls would not exist at all, or chicks that use kimono in modern ways, mixing it up with occidental cloth, or girls with short hair almost male style (and they DO practice kendo) or women that does not get married at 20 years old and choose a carreer instead, I met one who happenes to practice kendo, and famous japanese tattoo artists that show the world his art and his ways to do that kind of tattoo (tradicional japanese tattoo), cos they don't need to hide anymore like in the past.

Even here in the western world, things are changing towards tattoo and body art, cos in the past used to be related with sailors and criminals too, macho tattoo of people who happenes to be rude, unpolite, killers, burglars, etc. But now, even here in this part of the globe that thing changed, now anyone can have a tattoo, a woman, a man, a business man, a football player, a doctor, anyone. If that happened here, why not in Japan too?

Things are changing, evolving. Why do you think they must remain static? If it was that conservative, we shouldn't be practicing kendo at all, cos we are extrangers to them, gaijin is the word? They would banned us from Japanese dojos only to be like that and not because we have some kind of body art.

That's all I'm going to say about the subject, cos I think this isn't why this thread was opened at all.

I have to apologize to Alison for all this, cos i think it was not the idea at all. Again congrats on your new tat, is awsome!

[Kenzan]

but none of the japanese sensei said anything about my tattoo when they were last over.
and some of them are rather elderly
:p

Hunh..apparently it only is bad when you are in Japan?

[pgsmith]

2. This is very basic cultural stuff and a "must-know" if you practice kendo. Strange as it may seem, some of us actually try to know things about foreign cultures and customs before we travel so we don't wind up being called "Ugly Americans" (a terrible slur as tourists of all nationalities can be absolutely clueless and crass). Ignorance of a local culture is not an excuse for anything.
So, is this from your own experience, or are you simply parroting what you've heard? It has been my experience that, while many of the older kenshi are quite conservative, they aren't idiots. They realize that tattoos are seen differently outside of Japan, and don't expect non-Japanese to be Japanese. This is especially true in kendo circles where there is even more contact with foreigners. Tattoos can get you trouble in some onsen, and occassionally from an ultra-national type that enjoys harrassing foreigners.

It is much more an issue for Japanese nationals, and I've never even heard of anyone being denied practice at any kendo dojo because of tattoos.

[satsumaruma]

1.

Ignorance of a local culture is not an excuse for anything.

?

I think this is fine up to a point but it can only go so far.

It can not be expected that any foreigner can be fully versed in another countries culture simply because there are so many levels and nuances to deal with.

Take a reasonably small country like the UK. Most of you who are non-British will have a view of what Britain is like and what the people are like. This is likely to be based on the media, any friends you may have and any research you may have done. You may even have visited or lived here. But that would still only give you so much of an insight. And this is accepted and should be acceptible.

Some examples. ScottUK on these forums comes from the West Midlands and I can hear his accent is from that part of the world but I do not really know the difference between his accent (yamyam) and a Birmigham one (Brummie) and I have travelled all over Britain. Simliarly most people outside the North East of England could not differentiate between Geordie, Makem and Smoggy. And we are only talking accents.

Take local colloquialisms. Tykes will happily use the word 'love' as an end word on any sentence for either sex but a mere 50 miles away and Lancastrians tend only to use it for opposite sex (women often use it for either though). How would anyone outside the UK know this.

Now take food. In the south of England it is accetibel to eat Yorkshire Pudding as part of a main Sunday dinner; in Yorkshire and I think Lancashire, this would be seen as quite wrong - it is served as a separate course.


And this is tip of a massive Iceberg. We could talk about local customs, local dress, local sports, local traditions etc etc and all these cross over. Some things that occur in Lincolnsire also occur in Nottinghamshire and South Yorkshire but then there will be other things that occur in Lincolnshire and do not occur in Notts and S Yorks but do occur in Norfolk. And of course this would be the case in most countries on the planet.

I think however that people should take the trouble to learn as much as they can about any country they visit to show respect for that country - might help with international realtions and maybe reduce stereotyping.

I'm gonna stop now otherwise I would go on for hours. Interesting subject methinks

[AlexM]

So, is this from your own experience, or are you simply parroting what you've heard? It has been my experience that, while many of the older kenshi are quite conservative, they aren't idiots. They realize that tattoos are seen differently outside of Japan, and don't expect non-Japanese to be Japanese. This is especially true in kendo circles where there is even more contact with foreigners. Tattoos can get you trouble in some onsen, and occassionally from an ultra-national type that enjoys harrassing foreigners.

It is much more an issue for Japanese nationals, and I've never even heard of anyone being denied practice at any kendo dojo because of tattoos.

Listen, I couldn't care less if anyone believes me or not, but that's the way it works: No one will say it to your face but they'll look down on you.

Is it that troublesome to cover up the tattoo among police in Japan? You do it because its the polite thing to do and that's it. Some Western attitudes do not travel well whether we would like them to or not.

The advice I'm parroting was from my sensei by the way. But he probably doesn't know what he's talking about seeing as he learned his kendo at keishicho by getting the shit pounded out of him on a regular basis. I'm sure that you know more than he does despite the fact that you don't practice kendo.

[Alison2805]

hmmm. Well this is an interesting debate.

I personally got some shocked looks with my little tattoo at the beach in Japan - from teenager surfies. However it didnt stop me from being allowed in the onsen.

But if I had plans to train with a poice dojo or any dojo in Japan where I didnt know anyone closely, I would not have gotten the tattoo. Im not stupid. Although I wouldnt turn down the chance to train in Japan one day, my plan is to train in dojos all over the world as my work takes me - I doubt Ill ever be sent to Japan for work!! There are enough wonderful places to train in the world outside Japan. So for me, its OK.

To tell the truth, I expected more of a negative response to this thread, in particular to me. Im quite pleased with how open-minded everyone seems to be. Thanks guys!

Now you guys can get back to your debate. Play nice.

[hl1978]

So, is this from your own experience, or are you simply parroting what you've heard? It has been my experience that, while many of the older kenshi are quite conservative, they aren't idiots. They realize that tattoos are seen differently outside of Japan, and don't expect non-Japanese to be Japanese. This is especially true in kendo circles where there is even more contact with foreigners. Tattoos can get you trouble in some onsen, and occassionally from an ultra-national type that enjoys harrassing foreigners.

It is much more an issue for Japanese nationals, and I've never even heard of anyone being denied practice at any kendo dojo because of tattoos.

In my own experiences in japan, I have found that the better your japanese is, the more japanese you are expected to act like. You still have the gaijin card, it just might not work as often unless it is with someone you don't know.

[Kenzan]

Listen, I couldn't care less if anyone believes me or not, but that's the way it works: No one will say it to your face but they'll look down on you.


Whether you have tats or not, foreigner or native, man or woman, Japanese or Guatemalan, I'd be willing to bet that almost all modern cultures who consider themselves "civilized," consider the act of "looking down on people" to be one that does not rank high among the list of human virtues.

[JSchmidt]

It is much more an issue for Japanese nationals, and I've never even heard of anyone being denied practice at any kendo dojo because of tattoos.

It's not so much of being denied, but not getting any further introductions.

George (kenshi) and I talked about this subject on my recent trip to Japan and he's parroting exactly the same as me and Alex.
There's many ways of playing your gaijin cards, but you will have a limited amount and spending one on excusing a tattoo is a waste, IMO.
Your milage may vary, of course, so if you want to have a tattoo, by all means, feel free.

[misterkurukuru]

Japan is Japan,
it may take you a life time to figure out suburi
the same may be said about the Japanese culture.

at least you guys can play the gaijin card.
As a person who is an American citizen,
but whose parents and whole family is from Japan
I will never be excused for some of the stuff
other gaijins get away with.

ignorance is bliss...lets just leave it like that.
they wont hate you. but you will never be accepted 100%.
so just leave it as that, and be thankful that there are
a lot of us around the world who dont carry the same views.

[kendokamax]

Its an extreme exemple but...
I have heard of a Finnish guy who wore a hear piercing during a keiko at keishicho. The police guys noticed it and they would tsuki him aiming to the hear where the piercing was. Heard it was a bit bloody after.

In Tokyo you will be able to see all kind of kids with tatoo and piercing etc, but in the Kendo community they are a bit rarer. But I remember some guys at Budai used to have piercing, but they would always hide it when they smell senpai or sensei around. Too scared of getting beat up.

It's stupid but thats the way it is, over there.

[xvikingx]

If I may....
I have tattoos and I have never had any major problems nor have I been treated unfairly, by "old traditionalist" and youngsters alike, in or out of the dojo. Most people are open minded and they don't talk about it as a foreign thing. In fact what I usually hear is "Ah kids today, I don't get it. Tattoos are fashionable now." In my years I've only been asked to leave one sento. The dojo-cho, a former police chief, only made one comment, jokingly, about taking my tattoos off with as cheese-grater.
No Japanese would ever automatically associate tattoos with Yakuza. That's non-sense. Yakuza have yakuza tattoos, tattoos that tell a tales and have meaning. Someone may think you are a degenerate but most deffinately not yakuza. Especially a foreigners, get real. Criminals (arsonists, murderers, thieves) were branded with tattoos, usually somewhere visible like the face or forearms. This is where the social stigma stems from.
As for playing the "gaijin card", if you decide to play your life like that, riding on some kind of social fence, hopping in and out of the sociatal boundry, then you can only expect to run into barriers and have your fair share of dissappoitments. People here are not mindless robots, who are only obedient to their cultural values. They will judge you on your character and not simply on your appearance alone.
@Kurkuru- Tattoos or not I will never be 100% accepted. If your not Japanese, you're NOT Japanese, and you never will be. There are very few people that will get past the fact that you are "gaijin".

[Rob W.]

Thanks for the first person information, everyone who's trained in Japan. I'd be interested in hearing the experiences of gaijin living there now, especially long-termers with good command of the language. I have large "irezumi" style tattoos over a good portion of my body, and am only going to get more (although nothing past the t-shirt - shorts area). Everything is coverable except a little on the top of the back of my neck and my palm... I always forget about my palm. I've pretty much resigned myself to being unable to visit some places I'd like to when I travel to Japan, but I'm worried about the general attitude towards tattoos and how it would affect me applying for an English teaching position. From all of my sources tattoo "discrimination" is still a serious consideration in polite / adult Japanese society.

I suoppose I could teach english to yakuza.
"Ok, repeat. I... am... going... to... gut... you."
"Where... is... the... money."
"Your... american... laws... mean... nothing... to... me."
"I... am... an... oh... gee."


The dojo-cho, a former police chief, only made one comment, jokingly, about taking my tattoos off with as cheese-grater.

Eeeeeeeegh.

[ogogo]

from my experience tattoos are still quite taboo in japanese culture. In fact, im not sure if this applies to all, but at least some gyms wont let you in if you have a tattoo for fear of causing unease amongst the other gym members. Now this isnt a definite logical leap, but I would assume it would be the same at atleast some, not all, kendo dojos.

[xvikingx]

@Rob- Expect to be treated differently. Especially if you are going to be covered with tattoos. If you have them showing then you will probably be shunned. If it's only visiable when you change then most likely they won't care much.

@ogogo- Read my post above. Some places like fancy gyms or spas with be more strict about the rules because of the clients they are trying to attract.

*If you are flashing tattoos expect to attract unawanted attention. Like Alex said learn about the culture and know your place. However it's not as black and white as some have suggested here.*

[xvikingx]

@Alison- If you ever have kids that tattoo is going to be an absolute mess!

[Rob W.]

Thanks for the straight up advice xvikingx. My tattoos don't show when I have a t-shirt on, even though when I'm naked some would call me "covered". I suppose I'll try and make due... the attitude sounds very different there as compared to the west (obviously).

Allison, just as an aside, some of my friends had belly tattoos and although they looked rediculous while they were pregnant, they went back to normal afterwards. Although I have a feeling you're going to tell us you're not planning on getting pregnant in the near future.

[hl1978]

@Rob- Expect to be treated differently. Especially if you are going to be covered with tattoos. If you have them showing then you will probably be shunned. If it's only visiable when you change then most likely they won't care much.

@ogogo- Read my post above. Some places like fancy gyms or spas with be more strict about the rules because of the clients they are trying to attract.

*If you are flashing tattoos expect to attract unawanted attention. Like Alex said learn about the culture and know your place. However it's not as black and white as some have suggested here.*

I would say you pointed things out quite accurately. I have had friends who have tried to go to various gyms etc not be admitted due to tattoos.

I only pointed out the gaijin card thing in part because people who have never spent any time there probably aren't familiar with the term, and the meaning beyond the thing you gotta carry. I know long term residents of japan who still abuse the gaijin card thing from time to time with pride.

For those who haven't been there, Japan isn't the rosy place in your dreams. Despite having been spit on, had bottles thrown at me, people try and start altercations (surprisingly Mitaka could be a hazardous place), I still go back plenty of times.

[Kenshi]

I was waiting for viking to comment before I said anything.

Although you probably wont get into major trouble if you are a non-Japanese person with tatoos, its best to be without them. Full stop. Because you are a non-Japanese person they probably wont take you seriously anyway, and if you have tatoos, well, they will take you less seriously. If youve already got tatoos it cant really be helped, but you should be aware of the problems that could possibly arise.

Although viking hasnt really got into any problems, there is 1 incident that Id like to share. He came to my gasshuku this year and - after training - we all went to the onsen. I totally forgot about his tatoos and - because he is culturally sensitive (though not morally!) - he chose not to come when everyone went in before the evening meal. I spoke to my 2 head sensei about it and they said "its no problem with us, but it would be best if he came later on (late at night)" ... the sensei were not too bothered and didnt/wouldnt have stopped him, but they didnt want to cause a problem to the onsen owners or other bathers. Our shihan - Hanshi 8dan - didnt see him and its just as well... as I *KNOW* there would have been hell to pay.

viking is also v.careful about taking showers indescretely when he comes to my dojo.... hes not wandering around like a sailor on shore leave strutting his tatoos.

This is a normal dojo btw, not a police one. I would consult the head sensei in a police dojo before I took anyone there with tatoos.

Another tale: despite what you may think, I think tatoos are pretty cool. I was going to get one a few years ago (the usual kanji and what not) but when I consulted my sempai about this (this is koryu, not kendo) he stated: "Get one if you want, but your progression on this art stops then. Also, you will never recieve an introduction from me to anyone in Japan." It kind of shocked me, so I stopped.

[xvikingx]

Although viking hasnt really got into any problems, there is 1 incident that Id like to share. He came to my gasshuku this year and - after training - we all went to the onsen. I totally forgot about his tatoos and - because he is culturally sensitive (though not morally!) - he chose not to come when everyone went in before the evening meal. I spoke to my 2 head sensei about it and they said "its no problem with us, but it would be best if he came later on (late at night)" ... the sensei were not too bothered and didnt/wouldnt have stopped him, but they didnt want to cause a problem to the onsen owners or other bathers. Our shihan - Hanshi 8dan - didnt see him and its just as well... as I *KNOW* there would have been hell to pay.

viking is also v.careful about taking showers indescretely when he comes to my dojo.... hes not wandering around like a sailor on shore leave strutting his tatoos.

Glad you brought that story up (figured it was better coming from you and not me), because that was the point I was trying to make. Be aware and sensitive (morals not necessary!) and you probably won't run into any problems. *And yeah, I didn't think shihan would be too fond of the exploding skull!!!

@ Rob- No worries. They will probably be more curious than anything.

[ace]

i have often throught about this because i have a few tattoos manly a big one on my back i worry about, thats why when ever we have visting sensei manly the older ones i make sure i get changed outa view just to be on the safe side.

[Kenzan]

If I may....
I have tattoos and I have never had any major problems nor have I been treated unfairly, by "old traditionalist" and youngsters alike, in or out of the dojo. Most people are open minded and they don't talk about it as a foreign thing. In fact what I usually hear is "Ah kids today, I don't get it. Tattoos are fashionable now." In my years I've only been asked to leave one sento. The dojo-cho, a former police chief, only made one comment, jokingly, about taking my tattoos off with as cheese-grater.
No Japanese would ever automatically associate tattoos with Yakuza. That's non-sense. Yakuza have yakuza tattoos, tattoos that tell a tales and have meaning. Someone may think you are a degenerate but most deffinately not yakuza. Especially a foreigners, get real. Criminals (arsonists, murderers, thieves) were branded with tattoos, usually somewhere visible like the face or forearms. This is where the social stigma stems from.
As for playing the "gaijin card", if you decide to play your life like that, riding on some kind of social fence, hopping in and out of the sociatal boundry, then you can only expect to run into barriers and have your fair share of dissappoitments. People here are not mindless robots, who are only obedient to their cultural values. They will judge you on your character and not simply on your appearance alone.
@Kurkuru- Tattoos or not I will never be 100% accepted. If your not Japanese, you're NOT Japanese, and you never will be. There are very few people that will get past the fact that you are "gaijin".

An absolutely sparkling-ly brilliant post.
:)

[Kenzan]

I was waiting for viking to comment before I said anything.

Although you probably wont get into major trouble if you are a non-Japanese person with tatoos, its best to be without them. Full stop. Because you are a non-Japanese person they probably wont take you seriously anyway, and if you have tatoos, well, they will take you less seriously. If youve already got tatoos it cant really be helped, but you should be aware of the problems that could possibly arise.


Since I have lots of tattoos already (Military thing)
What do you think If I covered them with flesh-colored bandages?
Do you think no one would know? Or say anything?
How about Onsen? I'm thinking about those neoprene type of bandages.
I's like to hear any opinion about that.
This is going to be an issue with me very soon I fear.

[Kenzan]

If your not Japanese, you're NOT Japanese, and you never will be. There are very few people that will get past the fact that you are "gaijin".

Just in case you have forgotten my friend, (American as you are), we beer drinking, cowboy boot wearing, chili-guzzling Nacar-watchin' horse-ridin' lay Sunday shoes in the house wearin' Good Old Boys love ya'll no matter what you look like.
:D

[xvikingx]

Some places will say take a hike, while others won't even bat an eye. If you go to up scale places or places that are meant to attract families they probably ask you to leave. Like I said before I've only been asked to leave one sento.
I go quite often. People usually stare at my wang more than my tats.

[ziggey]

I go quite often. People usually stare at my wang more than my tats.

Tits you mean

[Fudo-Shin]

hehe...manboobs!:eek:...

[mugen no junin]

My little experience:

when I started kendo more or less five years ago, my sensei was a japanese living here in Italy. I got 4 kanji on my back without asking him nothing or saying nothing.
When he saw them told me that it would be better if I've had asked him before tattooing me, and then that by that time on before I could attend any stage with any japanese sensei he would ask if I could join the keiko.

I asked other italian sensei about that and they told me thre would be any problem; actually there some high rank sensei tattoed here.

I think japanese are rather conservative, expecially in kendo. Even if younger people get tattoed, it would be very difficult to see traditional tattoos on them. It remainds of yakuza, so much more new school stuff, this is what it's said to me from many tattoers.

I'm getting heavily tattoed, but I will never get something out of the shape of the keikogi and I always take off my ear piercing when I practice, even if I'm in my dojo.
I see it like a kind of respect to other people.

BTW did you see this picture?

http://www.simulacre.org/wordpress/photos/album/72157600336961345/page/1/photo/540245426

The guy on the left is visible tattoed (I think he's one of the KW staff)...I don't think if this was such a problem they let him partecipate to the taikai...


this my 2c...mmm quite long, sorry

[Dervish]

Another tale: despite what you may think, I think tatoos are pretty cool. I was going to get one a few years ago (the usual kanji and what not) but when I consulted my sempai about this (this is koryu, not kendo) he stated: "Get one if you want, but your progression on this art stops then. Also, you will never recieve an introduction from me to anyone in Japan." It kind of shocked me, so I stopped.

I guess Michael Scofield (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/b/b6/150px-Michaelscofieldtattoo.jpg) wont be going to Japan anytime soon ... :D

[Kenshi]

This is going to be an issue with me very soon I fear.

Just get the information out there asap. If its an onsen, call them up and ask before hand. If its a dojo it really depends. A lot of dojos dont even have showers, so they might never see your stuff.....

I guess it depends on how much, where, and of what sort your tattoos are.

This is a country where some kids openly wear Nazi Swastikas, so its horses for courses..... (and I dont mean buddhist symbols either)

[ben]

I guess Michael Scofield (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/b/b6/150px-Michaelscofieldtattoo.jpg) wont be going to Japan anytime soon ... :D

Or me old mate Luck Diamond Rich (http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/12/16/tattman_narrowweb__200x388.jpg).

b

[Rob W.]

Thanks for the information, especially kenshi and xvikingx. I think the attitude is very relaxed here in the USA, but I still try to cover up in taikai changing rooms, around older Japanese ex-pats and most certainly around visiting sensei. In our dojo a number of us walk around without shirts folding, cleaning and closing down after the (non-Japanese) sensei has left, especially in the 95 degree summers. But for the most part my tattoos are very private and personal for me and I don't like to show them off.


Another tale: despite what you may think, I think tatoos are pretty cool. I was going to get one a few years ago (the usual kanji and what not) but when I consulted my sempai about this (this is koryu, not kendo) he stated: "Get one if you want, but your progression on this art stops then. Also, you will never recieve an introduction from me to anyone in Japan." It kind of shocked me, so I stopped.

That's harsh. I would be shocked too.

[Alison2805]

Allison, just as an aside, some of my friends had belly tattoos and although they looked rediculous while they were pregnant, they went back to normal afterwards. Although I have a feeling you're going to tell us you're not planning on getting pregnant in the near future.

Yep, thats right. Besides, if I end up hainv kids one day and it goes all funky, I wouldnt care - my tat is for me, not for everyone else. :)

[pgsmith]

*If you are flashing tattoos expect to attract unawanted attention. Like Alex said learn about the culture and know your place. However it's not as black and white as some have suggested here.*
Excellent words viking.

Thanks go out to George also, for sharing his experience and experiences. I get very frustrated sometimes when people make emphatic blanket statements based upon other peoples words. Although it's a good idea to always listen to what sensei says, sensei's words are meant for the person they are told to, and may not be exactly correct for others or outside of the context of the conversation in which they were originally said.

Since we were conversing about kendo, I didn't bring up koryu. However, since George did, he is absolutely correct on that score. I personally know several koryu sensei that would be extremely reluctant to allow a person with tattoos to join the ryu. However, here's a couple of caveats to that also. I know of one koryu and one gendai kenjutsu school whose U.S. representatives are both heavily tattooed.

Blanket statements are a bad idea, especially where the Japanese are concerned. :)

Listen, I couldn't care less if anyone believes me or not, but that's the way it works: No one will say it to your face but they'll look down on you.

Is it that troublesome to cover up the tattoo among police in Japan? You do it because its the polite thing to do and that's it. Some Western attitudes do not travel well whether we would like them to or not.

The advice I'm parroting was from my sensei by the way. But he probably doesn't know what he's talking about seeing as he learned his kendo at keishicho by getting the shit pounded out of him on a regular basis. I'm sure that you know more than he does despite the fact that you don't practice kendo.
Kids are so cute when they get all wound up this way. If I argue with you more are you going to hold your breath until you turn blue? :D

[Fonsz]

Yep, thats right. Besides, if I end up hainv kids one day and it goes all funky, I wouldnt care - my tat is for me, not for everyone else. :)
Well not anymore the whole of the Kendo World and maybe more know about it now. :eek: I bet ya that your pics are now downloaded by herds of boys for educational reasons. Or they want the same tattoo and you have started a trend here.............:ko:

[Ignatz]

I have explained that the intricate celtic band around my upper arm is an Irish tribal mark and that all adult males of our clan are required to have it. :smoker:

[xvikingx]

BTW did you see this picture?

http://www.simulacre.org/wordpress/photos/album/72157600336961345/page/1/photo/540245426

The guy on the left is visible tattoed (I think he's one of the KW staff)...I don't think if this was such a problem they let him partecipate to the taikai...

Well this reminds... there is a fellow at Noma who has a tattoo on his forearm that is visible even when he is wearing a keiko gi. Noma is pretty strict, but he has been there for over 20 years and is respected.

[ScottUK]

Blanket statements are a bad idea, especially where the Japanese are concerned. :)Spot-on, there. My koryu teacher took a great interest when he saw my back tattoo (I forget its there sometimes) as it has some kanji in it (I am collecting foreign languages on my body, so it seems...). At first I was concerned at his reaction, but when I explained that every element of the tattoo design was very important to me and was not just some cool fashion fad, he was fine and actually complimented it.

He is quite modern in his thinking and understands the nonsense us non-Japanese get ourselves into, and seems quite tolerant of our ways...! When I first visited him and made a social balls-up or two, he just corrects me and gets over it. Yep, blanket statements don't work there...

Kudos to Leiv for being culturally delicate, but I think Mr Kurukuru has a point in that we can get away with a lot more than the Japanese can. Best we don't push it though, eh? :)

George - if you stop studying koryu, will you have a tat?

[bolson]

better than a lobster

[Kenshi]

we can get away with a lot more than the Japanese can. Best we don't push it though, eh?]

Yeah, thats the main point. However, unfortuanatly, its hard to be seen to be serious and to be given responsibility if we dont do as they do... as much as you think youve cracked it or as liberal as the teacher may seem.

Peoples situation regarding social mistakes and tattoos would most likely change if you lived and practised here. Combined with an understanding of the language (which adds depth that simply cant be had by practise alone) its hard not to slowly get seen to be and be expected to act Japanese.

An old sempai (British) once told me to ensure that you get seen adding tomato ketchup to rice every now and again (or something equally bizarre to Japanese eyes).... just to remind them that you are not of their ilk. Im Vegetarian, so ive basically got that covered anyway.


George - if you stop studying koryu, will you have a tat?

Dude, Im full time....

[ScottUK]

just to remind them that you are not of their ilk. Hehe I don't think anyone would need reminding that about me. Not with my stature and lack of social grace.


Dude, Im full time....Correct answer. Full marks... :D

[Rob W.]

My koryu teacher took a great interest when he saw my back tattoo (I forget its there sometimes)

Ha, same here.


Im Vegetarian, so ive basically got that covered anyway.

As a bit of an aside, how is that in Japan? Difficult or relatively easy?

[Kenshi]

As a bit of an aside, how is that in Japan? Difficult or relatively easy?

Its probably more of a social stigma than having tattoos!!!!

Basically, its very hard. Im used to it now. You can always cook for yourself or eat at indian restaurants.

[Dervish]

Its probably more of a social stigma than having tattoos!!!!

Basically, its very hard. Im used to it now. You can always cook for yourself or eat at indian restaurants.

Oh yay, something more to look forward to!

/Also vegetarian.

[Lady_Kitsune]

Yeah that is so right... I'm also a vegetarian and here in this country is so complicated

[nikozamo]

tattoos to be vegetarian... OMG!
i want a tattoo,
im not vegetarian,
i do kendo!

what else? :D

[Rob W.]

Lots of vegetarians here, we should have a vegetarian Kenshi group. Indian resturants, huh? Thanks for the tip.

[Lady_Kitsune]

Arabic food is also good, they have quite a good menu for those who does not eat meat. ;)

[Anime12478]

I've thought about getting a kendo related tattoo on my back or something. Maybe that would be something I would do for my 10-year anniversary or something since I really don't know what I would want anyways.

As for getting a tattoo, I think that if you want one, then go on ahead and get one as long as the subject matter is appropriate and/or get it in a place where any amount of clothing can hide it. To base your decision on something that a questionable amount of people care about for a concept that seems to be diminishing just doesn't seem right to me. Your trustworthiness should be based on your kendo ability, respect for authority and willingness to learn, not because you got some permanent ink mark on your body of appropriate subject matter.

[Kenzan]

How about a Tatoo of a Full Bogu set on your body?
In all of the places the Bogu should go?
That way, wherever you went, you'd be ready to train!
:D

[Lady_Kitsune]

LOL...:laugh:

[Alison2805]

To base your decision on something that a questionable amount of people care about for a concept that seems to be diminishing just doesn't seem right to me. Your trustworthiness should be based on your kendo ability, respect for authority and willingness to learn, not because you got some permanent ink mark on your body of appropriate subject matter.

My choice of tattoo doesnt seem "right" to you? You think I got this to get "trust" from other kendoka?? Thats really really offensive.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think he was referring to deciding not to get a tattoo based on the opinion of other people, who should in his mind be judging you on your qualities as a kendoka, not on your unrelated life choices. Which, fair enough opinion in an ideal world but is a bit head-in-the-sand-y. Others with direct experience have made it pretty clear that a tattoo is a career-limiting choice, kendo-wise.

I think they're a bad idea just in general, but I'm a grumpy old man.

[Badtz-Maru]

On two separate occasions, I have had to physically restrain two well known Hachidan in the locker room from assaulting a Kendoka who got a tattoo. I have never seen Sensei that angry.

The one who got "Bushido" in kanji on his back was literally told by a Hachidan that he would be killed. It was pretty intense trying to hold back a sweaty middle aged man who then threatened to kill me for not allowing him to kill the tattooed young man.

Mind you, I think tatoos look nice when tastefully done on an attractive human being. I even thought about getting subtle ones myself (even though I am not an attractive human being) when I was younger. Those incidents of death threats from Hachidan proved to be a deterrent.

My ultimate point of view may annoy some, but I'm going to say it anyways since my position in the world of Kendo is pretty secure. Why on earth would someone who practices Kendo want a tattoo that is Kendo related or have some kanji (such as Bushido or a saying that is found on a Tenugui) tattooed on themselves? That in itself, I think, makes matters worse. Having military tattoos or butterflies is one thing, but having a silhouette of a Kenshi tattooed on yourself puzzles me. This has nothing to do with Yakuza or Japanese culture. This is just a grumpy younger man who has been in Kendo for a long time wondering aloud. I mean, if someone who does Kendo get the kanji for "Samurai" on their arm is that cool to you? If someone tattooed "The Last Samurai" on themselves, you'd almost have to restrain me from laughing myself to death.

I got myself a little Kote keychain in Kitamoto because I thought it was cute and my favorite strike is Kote. Senseis laughed at me for that! I probably wouldn't be here typing this had I gotten a tattoo of a Kote on myself.

Tattoos don't bother me one way or another, but Kendo related ones puzzle me. So what it boils down to me is the sheer silliness of it rather than any cultural or symbolic significance.

[ScottUK]

On two separate occasions, I have had to physically restrain two well known Hachidan in the locker room from assaulting a Kendoka who got a tattoo. I have never seen Sensei that angry.

The one who got "Bushido" in kanji on his back was literally told by a Hachidan that he would be killed. It was pretty intense trying to hold back a sweaty middle aged man who then threatened to kill me for not allowing him to kill the tattooed young man....and these are respected kendoka...? :eek:

[Dave_petrucci]

I never realized there was such a stigma for tattoos amongst some Japanese practitioners. I myself don't like tattoos much, but my dad is heavily tattoo'd in Japan-themed murals, Kanji, he's even got two Kabuki masks done on his chest in the traditional Japanese "stabbing you with a pointy stick" way. To be perfectly honest he looks a bit of a tit. I mean he's 43 and he has more tattoos than a Yakuza crime lord. That's pretty much why I don't like them, they may look cool now but in 20 years you can look a bit of a twat if you over do it.

[Rob W.]

Badtz,
Wow. Now I'm scared. If I head to Japan I'll be sure to start a thread "Dojos where the sensei will not try to kill me because of tattoos."

That's too bad for the student, but also sad for the sensei. It sounds like they felt like they and their art had been insulted, and having your opinion of another shattered is never fun. It's too bad, I would assume the kendo student didn't mean disrespect and didn't intend the tattoo as insult. I'm not saying the sensei were wrong mind you, just different ideas, different cultures and different actions that show respect and disrespect. And we are learning hachidan's art...

I hope I can avoid incidents like that in my kendo future. Note to self: keep 'em covered.

What happened to the student?

[Anime12478]

My choice of tattoo doesnt seem "right" to you? You think I got this to get "trust" from other kendoka?? Thats really really offensive.

Actually it's quite the opposite as I really like your tattoo. But Neil hit it on the head as far as what I meant to say. Sometimes, I may type stuff that might not make sense, but I wasn't talking about your specific motive to get the tattoo at all.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Badtz-Maru]

Actually, the incidents did not take place in Japan, but in two different North American locations by visiting Sensei.

I am pleased to say that no tattooed Kendo students were harmed during the filming of these incidents. They must have had an awkward time afterwards.

Pretty sure that they cover up now around Hachidan Sensei. I'm not really sure where they are now and what they're up to. I heard that one has gone back to their native country, but who knows.

[ScottUK]

I am assuming visiting Japanese sensei? What kind of people visit the West and then get pissed at them not conforming to Japanese values? :rolleyes:

Are you telling us the whole story here, Badtz?

[xvikingx]

I am assuming visiting Japanese sensei? What kind of people visit the West and then get pissed at them not conforming to Japanese values?

I agree he acted terribly and if he has any shame what-so-ever he should be embarrassed. I find it quite disturbing that everyone here is so concerned about upsetting the Japanese by being culturally insensitive but to do not expect the same in return. Hachidan or not he is still a man like you and I, and outside of kendo the awful truth is that his hachidan status means shit.

[Nash]

Tattoos don't bother me one way or another, but Kendo related ones puzzle me. So what it boils down to me is the sheer silliness of it rather than any cultural or symbolic significance.

I assume that for most of us here Kendo (or Iaido, Jodo etc) is a significant part of their life, why else would we be on here arguing about it. Kendo isn't a sport like Badminton that you play socially with friends, you have to commit to it and it becomes a part of your life and even defines you in some ways. Does it not make more sense to have a tattoo of something that is a defining part of your life (i.e. Kendo), as opposed to some of the ridiculous tattoos people have in languages they have never learnt and are completely irrelevant to their way of life, or tribal designs when their closest contact to a tribe is their local Gym, you get the idea.

I can completely understand a Kendo tattoo, and it makes a great deal more sense than some of the crazy stuff people committ to their body for life.

[Anime12478]

I do agree with Nash about the fact that it makes sense to get a tattoo of something you appreciate dearly, like Kendo. The good news of this reasoning is that, even if you have to leave kendo for any unforseen reason, I doubt that ones love for it wouldn't die so much that they feel they need to get it removed. Besides, it's a LOT smarter than getting one of a person's name that isn't a family member.

One thing that I do disagree with is that someone can love and put so much emphasis on Badminton as we do with JSA. But, that is left for another discussion as this has nothing to do with the matter at hand :D.

For those of you that are uncertain about getting tattoos, there is a new kind of ink that's supposed to be easier to remove if necessary. So I guess if you DO happen to be in trouble with a certain tattoo, you could get it removed.

The exact costs of the stuff is something that I don't know about.

[Inner_Silence]

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/Alison2805/IMGP1865.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/Alison2805/IMGP1864.jpg

.

i assume that the close up tatoo picture is also taken fom a mirror isnt it?? otherwise it would be "houston, we got a problem..."

[Kenshi]

I am assuming visiting Japanese sensei? What kind of people visit the West and then get pissed at them not conforming to Japanese values? :rolleyes:

The same people that are invited to the west to teach said Japanese-Values via the medium of budo perhaps?

I dont agree with what these sensei did, btw, but I understand where its coming from.

Maybe we should question the sensei that travel abroad what their aim is.

[ScottUK]

The same people that are invited to the west to teach said Japanese-Values via the medium of budo perhaps?Maybe, but now I am more in the picture about the situation, it actually seems more excessive. If I remember correctly (and I am occasionally dim so bear with me), the concept of budo doesn't cherish intolerance or bullying.

[Hisham]

Maybe those two sensei are of the "very" traditionalist kind.

[xvikingx]

If I remember correctly (and I am occasionally dim so bear with me), the concept of budo doesn't cherish intolerance or bullying.

Ideally, but as Kenshi mentioned (or should I say suggested?) budo can be (and sometimes is) used as vehicle for ______
Badtz mentioned that he was a visiting 8dan, I wonder how people would react if he was 6-dan or not visiting from Japan?

[ScottUK]

Ideally, but as Kenshi mentioned (or should I say suggested?) budo can be (and sometimes is) used as vehicle for ______I hate bullying on all levels and no excuse can be made for it - but I appreciate and am well aware of George's point (and it is noted).

[shred_lord]

People have mentioned the Gaijin Card, but there also seems to be the Nihonjin Card!

"It was wrong, but (he's Japanese so) it's just one of those things".

Rubbish

My opinion in that both of these Sensei were completely and unequivocally wrong. No excuse should be made.

[JoDuncan]

I'm with Shred on this one.

The dude must have been having a real bad day.

Or, sometimes when unknowing gaijin get kanji tats they don't really know what it's saying... are you sure it said "bushido" and not "F*ck you hachidan prick"?

:p

[SmellsLikeBogu]

For all those contemplating japanese kanji tattoos:
take a long hard look at this website:

http://www.hanzismatter.com/

I wouldnt wanna end up with "fish ball soup" on my arm :p

[xvikingx]

"F*ck you hachidan prick"?

Funny, I have that across my back and I have never had any problems.

[JoDuncan]

For all those contemplating japanese kanji tattoos:
take a long hard look at this website:

http://www.hanzismatter.com/

I wouldnt wanna end up with "fish ball soup" on my arm :p

Fish bow' soup! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAdbkXUVQ7M&mode=related&search=)

[Alison2805]

i assume that the close up tatoo picture is also taken fom a mirror isnt it?? otherwise it would be "houston, we got a problem..."

sorry, Im not sure what you mean. :confused:

[Alison2805]

I got myself a little Kote keychain in Kitamoto because I thought it was cute and my favorite strike is Kote. Senseis laughed at me for that! I probably wouldn't be here typing this had I gotten a tattoo of a Kote on myself.

Tattoos don't bother me one way or another, but Kendo related ones puzzle me. So what it boils down to me is the sheer silliness of it rather than any cultural or symbolic significance.

People laughing at me or looking down at what I do has never stopped me from doing anything. I like to think Im a bit stronger and more independant that that.

[Inner_Silence]

sorry, Im not sure what you mean. :confused:

if you check the first picture (the one with the close up) that you posted youll notice that the tatoo is in "negative" i mean, the left hand in the top of the shinai by the tsuba instead of the right hand. but i suposse that you have taken the picture in the mirror (mirrors cause that objects look in negative becouse of the effect that it induces in the properties of the light, insert a boring physics explanation here)

so i supose that the picture is taken from the reflection of a mirror, otherwise you have a bad tatoo :S

[shred_lord]

The second pic clearly shows the same tattoo orientation and a mirror frame. Therefore the first must also be mirrored.

[Inner_Silence]

The second pic clearly shows the same tattoo orientation and a mirror frame. Therefore the first must also be mirrored.

i hope :S

---------------------------------

[Alison2805]

yep youre right, it was taken in a mirror.

[Lady_Kitsune]

trust me on this, is taken by herself on a Mirror... ;)

[Inner_Silence]

alison, can i add a opinion humbily without getting flamed???

[Kenzan]

I don't know about you all, but I think that Tatoo Alison's got is downright sexeh!

There. I said it.
I'm naughty.
:D

[Inner_Silence]

ok... im gonna go for it too...

is your red hair natural alison???
in my humble opinion, youll look even better than you already do if you use it long...

[Alison2805]

ok... im gonna go for it too...

is your red hair natural alison???
in my humble opinion, youll look even better than you already do if you use it long...

Thankyou!
:laugh: Id never flame someone for giving me a compliment! Unfortunately the red isnt natural, I naturally have light brown hair. Im too lazy to grow my hair long....

[ace]

gezz ali your doing well on here guys falling over you all over the place:smiley:

[Nash]

gezz ali your doing well on here guys falling over you all over the place:smiley:

Looks like it huh. Maybe we should get some kendo tatts, expose our fat beer guts on kendo world, and perhaps we could be knee deep in gorgeous women. Or more likely we won't be, and maybe some people will be sick on their keyboards :laugh:

[ace]

hey its not my fault some people have a sixpack i have a keg,
and some people find that very attrative iam sure somewhere someplace...
nah probable not :)

[Hisham]

Looks like it huh. Maybe we should get some kendo tatts, expose our fat beer guts on kendo world, and perhaps we could be knee deep in gorgeous women. Or more likely we won't be, and maybe some people will be sick on their keyboards :laugh:

Maybe these guys (http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=502847) will throw flowers at you.:D





The link was provided by the Shredlord on the KW smutt chanel.

[lucy]

Im too lazy to grow my hair long....

Same here! :D Long hair is just impractical, especially on seminars etc and travelling.

[Alison2805]

Looks like it huh. Maybe we should get some kendo tatts, expose our fat beer guts on kendo world, and perhaps we could be knee deep in gorgeous women. Or more likely we won't be, and maybe some people will be sick on their keyboards :laugh:

I find this hilarious coming from the two pin-up boys of Murdoch kendo (Eds another one but he wouldnt want the gorgeous women)!

[Inner_Silence]

Same here! :D Long hair is just impractical, especially on seminars etc and travelling.

hummm
in my case i wouldnt have my bad ass viking heavy metal guitar player look if i dont use my hair long hahaha kitsune knows...

the six pack beer belly well... nowadays is a proud 3 pack but still...

[Hello_Kitty_Fan]

Arabic food is also good, they have quite a good menu for those who does not eat meat. ;)

Ethiopian food is another alternative, if you can get it.

[Nash]

hey its not my fault some people have a sixpack i have a keg,
and some people find that very attrative iam sure somewhere someplace...
nah probable not :)

We will know soon enough when our nude kendo calendar goes on sale :P

[Kenzan]

Looks like it huh. Maybe we should get some kendo tatts, expose our fat beer guts on kendo world, and......


Hey....Hey....hey.....Hey!!!

Ixnay on the eergutbay!











:D

[Kapplow]

Hey Allison! Guess what I saw last weekend!?

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z169/Kendoka82/poster.jpg

[Hisham]

It's pretty much the same pic as her tatoo inverted.

[Kapplow]

It's pretty much the same pic as her tatoo inverted.

Thats pretty much why I posted the pic.

[Bokushingu]

Hey Allison! Guess what I saw last weekend!?

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z169/Kendoka82/poster.jpg




ahhhhh that's where i saw your picture before, Kapplow: Little A's tat.
when you posted that pic in the other thread, the first thought was i have seen that pic somewhere b4 -- lol

[Inner_Silence]

ahhhhh that's where i saw your picture before, Kapplow: Little A's tat.
when you posted that pic in the other thread, the first thought was i have seen that pic somewhere b4 -- lol

definitively looks better on Ally's belly

[Alison2805]

hahaha!! Yeah, it appears they found the same pic on the net that I used. My tattoo is famous! Woohoo!

[Kagerou]

My god that was a long read...I think I need a minute to catch my breath....

Ok, just to add my ideas to a long list of worn out overstated arguments I think having tattoos in Japan can be hit or miss. My old iaido dojo was less than warm and fuzzy about my tattoo and it's VERY hard to see (inside of my upper arm)...but then they weren't exactly thrilled with the idea of me being there anyways.

My kendo dojo has no obvious problems with it. I'm sure people have seen it while I'm changing. They basically ignore it. They might not like it but they respect that I'm not Japanese. The few people that have asked about it understood my reasons for having it when I told them.

I think acceptance can be a VERY regional thing in Japan. Remember that I live in the foreigner city (Yokohama). People around here are much more accepting of nonjapanese cultural ideas than say in Kyushu.

As for the incident with the 8th dans and the bushido tattoo well think about how you would react if some foreigner tattooed your national anthem onto their body or how a marine would feel if you tattooed semper fi on your forearm. I think it's more of a 'what the hell? does he know what that means?' reaction than just hating tattoos. People just don't like having their national identity usurped by others. Agreed uttering death threats was excessive but I'm sure others have done the same. Be truly honest with yourselves before you criticize others.

If you have tattoos and someone in Japan doesn't like them then just go somewhere else. Don't get angry and fight them just find someone who accepts you for you. The same situation exists in the rest of the world. Everyone just picks on Japans tattoo taboo because they say something about them unlike others who just grummble under their breath at you and stab you in the back later. At least you know where they stand on that idea.

[JCM]

As for the incident with the 8th dans and the bushido tattoo well think about how you would react if some foreigner tattooed your national anthem onto their body or how a marine would feel if you tattooed semper fi on your forearm. I think it's more of a 'what the hell? does he know what that means?' reaction than just hating tattoos. People just don't like having their national identity usurped by others. Agreed uttering death threats was excessive but I'm sure others have done the same. Be truly honest with yourselves before you criticize others.

Actually, maybe not, I would have just thought he was a plonker.

But I agree with the other points, if they are ignorant enough not to appreciate that you come from a different culture go somewhere else, we do this as amateurs, and is not like we sign up to become Japanese just because we are doing Kendo, quite frankly, this worshiping of all things Japanese tires me.

There, I said it....

[Kagerou]

well I had a conversation today with a coworker who just happens to be a marine (he doesn't like the term ex- stuck in front of it). I asked him what he would do if he saw someone with semper fi tattooed on them. Well...it basically boiled down to the guy wouldn't be showing the arm off much anymore.

Do I think it's over the top? Yes but that's not the issue. The issue is that in this world there are people who take HUGE offense to people taking something that they feel is their sovereign property. Take a look at the daily news if you doubt me. If you're planning on using something that someone else feels belongs to them you're going to run into trouble.

So what does this all come down to? Tattoos are wonderful expressions of your feelings and personality. Just make sure you exercise some intelligence before having something permanently put on your body. The reason some sensei's say please ask me before you get a tattoo is to make sure you're not being a total idiot and getting something that will cause you trouble in the future. I mean do you really think you're the first foreigner they've come across who wants a cool martial arts tattoo?

p.s. I love the original tattoo this thread was about. Very nice.

[Alison2805]

Thanks Kagerou, some guys at my club were pissed that I got the tattoo - without them!

[Skiesmostwanted]

I know this is an old thread, and kind of starting it up again I guess? As most of you know, I am new here and looking to start practicing Kendo. I do have a question, or maybe a conflict? I have a tattoo of a koi in water that covers my entire right foot. Being that you practice Kendo with no shoes or socks, will this be a problem? I know most people were talking about Dojo's in Japan, but I would be practicing in the United States. I haven't started yet (I am waiting for when I am given a date to come in and do a trial lesson). I am just worried about putting off a bad vibe because of something such as a tattoo. Guess I am just looking for a few opinions and peoples experience? Again, I noticed most people also had them in places that really weren't visible until changing, but mine would be visible the entire time. Thanks!

[verissimus]

I know this is an old thread, and kind of starting it up again I guess? As most of you know, I am new here and looking to start practicing Kendo. I do have a question, or maybe a conflict? I have a tattoo of a koi in water that covers my entire right foot. Being that you practice Kendo with no shoes or socks, will this be a problem? I know most people were talking about Dojo's in Japan, but I would be practicing in the United States. I haven't started yet (I am waiting for when I am given a date to come in and do a trial lesson). I am just worried about putting off a bad vibe because of something such as a tattoo. Guess I am just looking for a few opinions and peoples experience? Again, I noticed most people also had them in places that really weren't visible until changing, but mine would be visible the entire time. Thanks!

It's not likely to be a problem (of course, depends on the particular sensei in question). There are a couple of people at my dojo who have tattoos. One has them all over one leg and arm, so while it's not visible during keiko, it's definitely visible to everyone when we change out of our clothes. Our (Japanese) sensei doesn't seem to care.

[turboyoshi]

I am just worried about putting off a bad vibe because of something such as a tattoo. Guess I am just looking for a few opinions and peoples experience?

I doubt it's going to be a problem. Like verissimus says, it will depend on the sensei but I've never seen anyone have a problem or even comment on such things. Show that you're eager to learn kendo and sensei are happy to have you as a student.

[Skiesmostwanted]

Ok. Just worried because it would be visible during practice.

[DigitalDowntown]

I doubt it will be a problem in the US.

[verissimus]

Just a postscript: given that we have such a hard time retaining beginners, I somehow doubt we're in a position to make a big deal about something like a tattoo.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Just a postscript: given that we have such a hard time retaining beginners, I somehow doubt we're in a position to make a big deal about something like a tattoo.Not to mention that excluding tattooed people in the US or Canada would probably eliminate about 3/4 of your prospective students.

Don't sweat it. I'm not a tattoo/piercing fan but I would never reject a student because of it.

[ScottUK]

Excluding tattoos in the dojo would remove two of the three instructors at Heijoshin. :D

[Manuka]

Don't they have a martial Tattoo up in Edinburgh a little north of you Scott?

[davehale]

This is a very interesting thread. I have two large tattoos on both sides of my rib cage. In my karate days, visiting sensei (Japanese or not) commented on them in a positive manner in the changing areas. I never gave much thought to others reactions, especially not Japanese sensei. I got them for me and not to flaunt. After reading this thread from beginning to end, I must say I'm a little nervous what may happen if my kendo sensei who are Japanese see them.
This thread started several years ago so I am wondering what/if there are different views now. To any of you who have been to Japan recently, are "old school" Japanese men still looking down on tattoos? Is the general public gaining acceptance? What about bath houses? If I ever get to visit Japan, it would be disheartening for me if I could not experience one because of my tattoos.

[Lloromannic]

More people have them because there are more young people now. They are still looked down on by the same people. ome bath houses have a no-tattoo policy, some don't, it usually posted at the entrance.

[dillon]

The majority of public bath houses and onsen in Japan ban tattoos. The sign saying so is not always super obvious so it's best to ask anyway if you don't see a sign (or if you're booking the ryokan-onsen). Despite the intention being to keep out members of the underworld, more often then not they won't make exceptions for foreigners as the point is not to make the other guests uncomfortable. As such, you might find places that have private (exclusive use) facilities where you can avoid other guests so the bath house or onsen will be willing to let you use that area. These tend to be more expensive than the general use areas as one might expect for private facilities. You miss out on ojisan/obasan banter though ("this winter business is so bad, blah, blah.")

Although there are some young trendy Japanese getting "one point" tattoos (e.g. Western style tattoo confined to a small area rather than traditional body covering irezumi), they are a very small group who probably realize that they have sacrificed participating in part of their own culture for the sake of being cool and international (they rather be a graphic designer in London anyway). Lady Gaga is quite popular here but whether she would be invited to be the guest of honor of some super traditional ceremony or even to the general area of an onsen (not that a superstar would be allowed to mingle so freely with the general public by their agents) would be another matter.

I don't know about budo sensei general attitudes but my guess is that it really depends on the sensei and the dojo. Best to ask the specific dojo. A lot of dojo you would only get into by introduction by a current member so there's already a degree of difficulty regardless of tattoo. The main issue with tattoo here is that a business doesn't want to spook their other customers so it's likely that within small social circle of a dojo there's tolerance for the Westerner sporting a tattoo (perhaps more lenient than for a Japanese or other East Asian).

If you are interested in an introduction-only/best-to-have-introduction dojo you should be careful how you ask the introducer as you don't want to put them in a situation where they have to choose between you and the dojo. Best to ask "I'm interested in this dojo but not sure if they would accept me with my tattoo." rather than "Can you introduce me to this dojo?" The former question allows the introducer to politely decline your request if indeed it's a bad idea. The later question puts them on the spot of having to either outright say no to you in a less than harmonious fashion or they have to go ask the sensei in which case the sensei might have to say "sorry but you're going to have to say no to this person", which puts the introducer in a difficult spot.

[b8amack]

I got myself a treat while Im here in Montreal! I have always wanted a small tattoo I have fixed, but it turns out that it was too difficult. So I decided to cover it instead. This is what I decided on in the end:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/Alison2805/IMGP1865.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/Alison2805/IMGP1864.jpg


Theres no way in hell I would ever get the same old fish/flower/dove etc. that everyone else has. The origonal tattoo meant "to be different" so I figure it still does.

Great tattoo.

[UnimportantHero]

After reading this thread from beginning to end, I must say I'm a little nervous what may happen if my kendo sensei who are Japanese see them.

Cannot speak to this personally, despite having line work tattoos (http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq202/unimportanthero/armtat.png) that reach down my hands and fingers, because I have not had much contact with sensei from Japan. But all the stories that I have read here on Kendo World have pretty much been positive so long as the people with the tattoos possess otherwise respectful and considerable attitudes.

[davehale]

Thank you all for your responses. I knew when I got my tattoos there would/could be negative opinions about them. But I got them for me so the only way to see them is if I'm not wearing a shirt. It may be a drag if I can't attend a bath house, but that's not the only thing to do in Japan.
Dillon, I appreciate your response. I think wording a request so they can politely decline is a must. Thanks again.

[Skiesmostwanted]

Thank you all for your comments. I went to my first Kendo class today and no one seemed (visibly anyway) bothered by it :)

[motlive]

Hmm.. I havent started yet, and when I sat in on a class last week I was wearing a jumper so you couldnt see them. I have basically 2 sleeves done (one is Japanese themed), best ask my instructor how he feels about me attending his classes.