Seme or just going forward.

[kuzu70]

What is the difference between "going forward" and seme? How do you balance going forward with seme, and just going forward when there is no opportunity? I always have a diffucult time with this concept, at keiko and especially during shiai. When I try to wait for the right opportunity, I have no seme and I am just waiting there. Any suggestions on how to improve?

[bullet08]

What is the difference between "going forward" and seme? How do you balance going forward with seme, and just going forward when there is no opportunity? I always have a diffucult time with this concept, at keiko and especially during shiai. When I try to wait for the right opportunity, I have no seme and I am just waiting there. Any suggestions on how to improve?

once you are facing aite, you should be alert at all time. even if you are not physically active, your mind should be active. ji-geiko is just mentally draining thing for me..

pete

[tango]

Not a bad question...

First off, seme is not as simple as "going forward" in as much as "going forward" doesn't do anything but get you x-distance closer to the opponent.

The idea of seme is to do something to cause your opponent to react in a way such that an opening occurs. I'm trying to describe this just very generally without going into much greater detail.

Many (most? all?) people-- when they're just starting with kendo -- are taught "going forward = seme" because you have to start somewhere with the concept.

Speaking very theoretically, if I point my finger at your eyeball, you may not react. If I keep my finger pointing at your eyeball and starting moving forward, then maybe you start to feel a little "pressure"... If I move "all the way forward" then by the time I'm 6 inches from your eyeball, you go, "Hey don't poke me in the eye!"

...this reaction from you ("don't poke me in the eye") is the simplest way I know of to explain seme. I "pressured" you into reacting to my finger... you moved your head out of the way, or maybe you even slapped at my hand to remove the pressure.

Make sense?

So now you just are learning to apply the same principle with a shinai in the setting of kendo. The kensen (the tip of the shinai) acts as your fingertip... "Moving forward" is the general concept of applying pressure at the very beginning stages of kendo. It gets a little bit more complex later on...

[Neil Gendzwill]

What is the difference between "going forward" and seme? Same as how you get to Carnegie Hall.

[tango]

What is the difference between "going forward" and seme? How do you balance going forward with seme, and just going forward when there is no opportunity? I always have a diffucult time with this concept, at keiko and especially during shiai. When I try to wait for the right opportunity, I have no seme and I am just waiting there. Any suggestions on how to improve?

Well, hang on.. maybe I misunderstand your question..

"Going forward" is just getting you closer to the opponent/target.
Seme is actually applying pressure to the opponent with the intention to attack.

[kuzu70]

Same as how you get to Carnegie Hall.

Come again?

[Paikea]

Come again?<wcfields>Practice, my boy...practice</wcfields>

[Ignatz]

Same as how you get to Carnegie Hall.

It's right around the corner from Kenshin Kai.:laugh:

[kuzu70]

So why is it when sometimes you go forward there is seme, and at other times there is no seme? When you hit men or kote when there is no apparent opening does it contribute to seme? When you get close to scoring a point, does it contribute to seme?

[tango]

read this again:


"Going forward" is just getting you closer to the opponent/target.
Seme is actually applying pressure to the opponent with the intention to attack.

If you're having trouble grasping this concept, then you need to keep going north to Carnegie Hall.

[kuzu70]

The concept is clear. It is the performance of this concept that I am having difficulty and frustration with. Practice and more practice is the answer, yes, but is there an effective way to practice to improve your seme?

[Martch]

The concept is clear. It is the performance of this concept that I am having difficulty and frustration with. Practice and more practice is the answer, yes, but is there an effective way to practice to improve your seme?

Yes, get hit. That'll teach you when your seme hasn't been convincing!

[Neil Gendzwill]

The concept is clear.Really? Because I've been doing this stuff a fair while, and it ain't that clear to me. I don't think the concept becomes clear until you can consistently do it.

This is one of those things where there's no magic key. Eventually, you'll start to wrap your head and body around it.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

if it ain´t working, practice harder... that´s the only way. it´s all about what you make the other guy feel.

[Reiver]

Seme is about suppressing your opponent, imposing your being so as to hamper your opponent so he cannot strike you but you can strike at will.

Think of it not as winning by striking, but as striking by winning.

Sometimes this is achieved simply by invading your opponent's space, but there is usually much more to it than that. It's like swamping your opponent with your innate superiority that is inseparable from your whole being. It comes about by practice, and as Martch said, by being hit.

You start to achieve seme first by being on the receiving end of it, and thus you can recognise it in others, and so after time and practice you can recognise it within yourself, as you impose seme on others. Like many things in kendo, it's something that dawns within you, and is not something readily understood until it is consistent.

Some people apply seme with movement, and I've fenced people who seem to be able to apply seme simply by being in chudan. Some are able to use your seme against yourself.

I started kendo over 13 years ago, and I don't completely understand it, but I do know that it comes from your being, mental, spiritual and physical. The key is to find what works for my being.

[kuzu70]

Alright, so maybe the concept is NOT very clear. But, I get the general idea. Is is easier to apply seme to someone that you always practice with as opposed to someone you are fighting for the first time? What is an effective way to strengthen your seme? What types of things should one concentrate on while doing keiko?

[misterkurukuru]

HAHAHAHAH

why do you even ask these people you KUZU

if you will consider my opinion, i have some thoughts i can share with you next time .

[DCPan]

So why is it when sometimes you go forward there is seme, and at other times there is no seme? When you hit men or kote when there is no apparent opening does it contribute to seme? When you get close to scoring a point, does it contribute to seme?

Well, I recall you outrank me in your profile before you took it out, but anyhow.... :D

Well, my limited take on it is that whether you have seme or not is dependent on your uchi-ma and your readiness to deliver said strike at uchi-ma.

So, if you enter when you are not ready, there is no seme.

In my mind, seme from the opponent's perception is your ability to hit him/her. So, naturally, closing in can feel threatening, provided that you are ready, willing, and able to threaten.

As for when you hit when there is no apparent opening, I would think it depends on whether or not that builds anticipation to the decisive blow, which would be the tame in the equation of:

kiai -> seme -> tame -> kuzushi -> suki -> datotsu -> zanshin.

YMMV.

[kendokamax]

HAHAHAHAH

why do you even ask these people you KUZU

if you will consider my opinion, i have some thoughts i can share with you next time .

Could you please express yourself ? You are good at kendo so I want to know what you think.

[misterkurukuru]

Max,
i have a lot of respect for Kuzu, i wouldnt want anything i am saying to him to be interpreted as me being better than him. giving advice to mudansha and lower dans is one thing, but giving advice to my peer, especially someone who i have competed against and keiko'ed with many times is kind of different.

[kendokamax]

Max,
i have a lot of respect for Kuzu, i wouldnt want anything i am saying to him to be interpreted as me being better than him. giving advice to mudansha and lower dans is one thing, but giving advice to my peer, especially someone who i have competed against and keiko'ed with many times is kind of different.

I don't think it would be seen that way if you give your personal idea about seme etc.

[kuzu70]

HAHAHAHAH

why do you even ask these people you KUZU

if you will consider my opinion, i have some thoughts i can share with you next time .

Had a really shitty shiai. I had no seme. My kendo felt really one dimensional. A little frustrated too. Just venting I guess.

[kuzu70]

Well, I recall you outrank me in your profile before you took it out, but anyhow.... :D



OK, I will put my rank back in, but just because you mentioned it (and suprisingly because you remember. As I recall I took that out a while back).
Anyways, thank you for what you said in your post. I will concentrate on making sure my intent to strike is present when moving forward. I think a lot of times, especially in shiai, I move forward without the intent to hit. It is just like moving forward to "test the waters" so to speak, and probably my opponent can sense this weak attempt at seme. I can't wait to go to keiko tonight. (If my wife lets me).

[Neil Gendzwill]

When I want to up the pressure, I think about tensing my abdomen like a sort of constant kiai (I think the technical term is kihaku), and projecting intent as you say by actively thinking about attacking. My mind is all, "I'm gonna hit you, right now!", but instead of hitting I just keep waiting and thinking about hitting. Then when I want to go, I push that little bit more to see if I can break his kamae.

[DCPan]

When I want to up the pressure, I think about tensing my abdomen like a sort of constant kiai (I think the technical term is kihaku),

More than one sensei has also mentioned holding one's breath as one seme, which could/would result in the tensing of the abdomen.

Since MisterKuruKuru mentioned shiai with Kuzu, I would assume you (Kuzu70?) are in So. Cal? I recall Miyahara sensei saying the same about holding one's breath while entering.

It is eerie to see how someone could enter the same way physically, but change your perception of it depending on how they breathe.


and projecting intent as you say by actively thinking about attacking

I find this mentality particularly useful in kote-semete-men, men-semete-kote, and etc :D


OK, I will put my rank back in, but just because you mentioned it (and suprisingly because you remember. As I recall I took that out a while back).

LOL, as part of my zanshin, I tend to check one's profile before posting :D

YMMV

[Badtz-Maru]

Here are my thoughts. Remember, just my thoughts.

For me, Seme is the readiness to perform a valid Kendo Waza at any given time. This is why training this way is mentally and physically draining. We tend to take unconscious breaks and drift out of that "readiness."

This is why I think this discussion dwells a little too much on the "forward" aspect of it. Can I be in a good Seme position standing still? Sure. Can I even be in a good Seme position backing up? Absolutely. As long as I make the effort to always be mentally set and in a good physical position to perform a Kendo Waza, I am in good Seme.

One part of Seme to me is being able to attack the instance the opportunity to do so presents itself. Think about all the times that your eyes see opportunity and you go to yourself "oh man... I could've had that..." What that simply means is that you did not have Seme at that moment and could not take the opening. This is why we do Uchi-Komi and Kakari-Geiko, so that when the Seme is there, the body can react.

Another part is what happens when attacked. Do you react? If so, then it's too late and that should tell you that Seme wasn't there. If I am able to perform good Seme, no matter what kind of an attack can be countered because of the readiness aspect I mentioned earlier. A good counter Waza or Ohji-Waza in Kendo is never premeditated. It is taken from a good Seme.

I have varying degrees of success with Seme:

1) If my Seme is strong, I can take Men by just stepping in.
2) If my Seme is strong, but not enough to take Men, then I can feint to Men and open up something else.
3) If my Seme is strong, but not enough to hold the opponent, I can perform a Debana-Waza or another Ohji-Waza on their attack.
4) If my Seme falters I will get attacked and have to block or dodge.
5) If my Seme falters further and I attack, I will have Ohji-Waza performed on me.
6) If my Seme sucks... then I will get stepped in on and scored upon.

Think of it as that chilling feeling you get when doing Keiko with a 7-8 Dan. You pretty much know that if you attack, you'll get hit and if you stay put, they will attack you. That means that they have forced their Seme on you.

Hope this helps.

[DCPan]

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.duckweedsociety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=4&id=11&Itemid=30

Anyone else think in terms of order of attack and kill zones and count their strikes like how card sharks count cards? :D

[slidercrank]

I will concentrate on making sure my intent to strike is present when moving forward.

But when I tried to do that myself, I ended up telegraphing my intent, not seme'ing.

At the risk of thread hijack (ok, I'm doing it anyway!): when is seme not telegraphing but seme?

I guess I am answering my own question? Telegraphing is when your aite knows your intent to strike a specific target, but seme is when your aite knows you intend to do something to him but he knows not what or where?

[kuzu70]

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.duckweedsociety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=4&id=11&Itemid=30

Anyone else think in terms of order of attack and kill zones and count their strikes like how card sharks count cards? :D

The order of attacks is a very interesting way to think about how to "seme." It is similar to an idea presented by a 8-dan sensei, Hayashi sensei at this year's North American Shimpan Seminar. I think he said (and I would not want to misquote him) (a) If you take a step in and if your opponent steps back, hit big men. (b) If you step in and if your opponent does not move, then use harai/maki waza. (c) If you step in and if your opponent attacks, debana waza or ooji waza.

Sounds simple, but for the life of me, I cannot execute this.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

Here are my thoughts. Remember, just my thoughts.

For me, Seme is the readiness to perform a valid Kendo Waza at any given time. This is why training this way is mentally and physically draining. We tend to take unconscious breaks and drift out of that "readiness."

This is why I think this discussion dwells a little too much on the "forward" aspect of it. Can I be in a good Seme position standing still? Sure. Can I even be in a good Seme position backing up? Absolutely. As long as I make the effort to always be mentally set and in a good physical position to perform a Kendo Waza, I am in good Seme.

One part of Seme to me is being able to attack the instance the opportunity to do so presents itself. Think about all the times that your eyes see opportunity and you go to yourself "oh man... I could've had that..." What that simply means is that you did not have Seme at that moment and could not take the opening. This is why we do Uchi-Komi and Kakari-Geiko, so that when the Seme is there, the body can react.

Another part is what happens when attacked. Do you react? If so, then it's too late and that should tell you that Seme wasn't there. If I am able to perform good Seme, no matter what kind of an attack can be countered because of the readiness aspect I mentioned earlier. A good counter Waza or Ohji-Waza in Kendo is never premeditated. It is taken from a good Seme.

I have varying degrees of success with Seme:

1) If my Seme is strong, I can take Men by just stepping in.
2) If my Seme is strong, but not enough to take Men, then I can feint to Men and open up something else.
3) If my Seme is strong, but not enough to hold the opponent, I can perform a Debana-Waza or another Ohji-Waza on their attack.
4) If my Seme falters I will get attacked and have to block or dodge.
5) If my Seme falters further and I attack, I will have Ohji-Waza performed on me.
6) If my Seme sucks... then I will get stepped in on and scored upon.

Think of it as that chilling feeling you get when doing Keiko with a 7-8 Dan. You pretty much know that if you attack, you'll get hit and if you stay put, they will attack you. That means that they have forced their Seme on you.

Hope this helps.

This is very interesting, I´ve always understood the concept of seme as the pressure you´re capable of putting over your opponent, forcing him to break his kamae and this way create an opening, or manipulating him one way or another. I said very interesting, because I think the side of the coin you mention is pretty much what I´ve been missing these last few months, maybe this whole year, I felt that my oji-waza was going nowhere besides my debana.

I don´t know what literally "seme" means, maybe that´d be another interesting analysis.

I think that seme is associated with going forward because it´s the most obvious way of putting pressure on you opponent, you get close, you´re maybe attacking him or maybe being stupid and giving him the chance, either way you end up putting pressure on him to break his kamae and do something, to decide, to expose him to doubt, confusion etc... But Indeed, I think this is not the only way, you can also put pressure on your opponent if you back-up without loosing your posture and chyu-shin-zen, being this just an example of the enormity of possibilities there is.
I think that being ready, and capable of performing an ippon when the opening is created is also very important, because if you begin missing chances, you no longer make your opponent to feel threatened, but in another interesting turn this can work on your favor, a couple of weeks ago, my sensei told me that I was not using my seme in a smart way, that my seme is very strong, but that same thing (that I thought was good and felt very happy for the compliment) worked against me that day, because I didn´t invite the other guy to attack and this way, 2 shiais happened where I got hiki-wake with the other guys running around afraid, so I think that one thing is to put pressure is one thing, but the key factor here, when doing seme one way or another, it´s to get the effect you´re looking for on you opponent and being capable of taking the chance that you create, whatever it is.

I´ve been told many times that when using an oji-waza, I´m the one to create the chance, being a basic concept to force "your game" on the other guy, so I have to apply seme on him, and manipulate him to do as I want, that´s the ideal, this is the way I´ve been told, but I understand that ideally one should naturally react and take the chance created, even if it´s not the one I specifically wanted. I´ve always wondered how does a 8 or 7 dan do it, those typically old and decrepit men that seem to barely move, get us owned no matter what we do, I´ve come to think that sometimes we magnificate them out of nothing, but having that in mind, does not help to do better against them either, I hope that my understanding of seme and level of kendo could reach that level someday and be able to look back and say: "so, this is how it´s done" to myself.

...Enough rambling, thanks for your thoughts badtz, I think it´ll help me big time. can´t spread the rep, sry.

[kuzu70]

When I want to up the pressure, I think about tensing my abdomen like a sort of constant kiai (I think the technical term is kihaku), and projecting intent as you say by actively thinking about attacking. My mind is all, "I'm gonna hit you, right now!", but instead of hitting I just keep waiting and thinking about hitting. Then when I want to go, I push that little bit more to see if I can break his kamae.

I will try this too during keiko. But, often my sensei tells me to stop attacking and attacking. He tells me attacking is all I have in my head. What should my mind be thinking? Oh, sure, I am supposed to have mushin, but lets be practical. I have difficulty with balancing aggressoion and patience. Difficulty with balance... that is the story of my life.

[DCPan]

I will try this too during keiko. But, often my sensei tells me to stop attacking and attacking. He tells me attacking is all I have in my head. What should my mind be thinking? Oh, sure, I am supposed to have mushin, but lets be practical. I have difficulty with balancing aggressoion and patience. Difficulty with balance... that is the story of my life.

Try the heart of a kaishaku (re: the link I gave).... :D

Perhaps, your sensei is referring to your ability to take advantage of an unforced error vs working on only striking when you've created an opening?

Just speculating :D

[DCPan]

But when I tried to do that myself, I ended up telegraphing my intent, not seme'ing.

At the risk of thread hijack (ok, I'm doing it anyway!): when is seme not telegraphing but seme?

I guess I am answering my own question? Telegraphing is when your aite knows your intent to strike a specific target, but seme is when your aite knows you intend to do something to him but he knows not what or where?

IMHO, telegraphing is not necessarily bad if it creates anticipation and forces the opponent to break kamae...after all, isn't men-semete-kote sort of using the opponent's ability to read you against him?

I think telegraphing is bad when you telegraphed your intent to attack a specific target that you are committed to. Because this way, it is no longer a matter of where and when, just a matter of when.

YMMV.

[kuzu70]

Ok, my wife has given me the green light (or kinda yellow light) to go to keiko. I will try to think about the things that you guys have told me. I don't think it will make much of a difference in one keiko, but, you never know.

[Bokushingu]

I'm a beginner, not worthy of commenting on this thread. However i have come to understand seme as a form of emotional communication. One persons generates a threat the other feel the threat. I have noticed that on occasions i have strengthened my opponents seme by having doubt and they recieved that feeling from me and it strenghtened their seme. So when ever i keiko i concentrate on having complete confidence.


also I have log most of the post in my journal from this post. i must thank all of you for the interpretation of seme.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I will try this too during keiko. But, often my sensei tells me to stop attacking and attacking. He tells me attacking is all I have in my head. What should my mind be thinking? Oh, sure, I am supposed to have mushin, but lets be practical. I have difficulty with balancing aggressoion and patience. Difficulty with balance... that is the story of my life.Like at your level and with the sort of sensei you have access to I should be telling you what to do but: the idea is to stop attacking so much, but keep that forward mindset. Somehow that thinking leaks out into your body language and the aite feels it, gets uncomfortable and eventually makes a mistake. If he attacks you instead, then like Badtz-Maru said, you will be ready.

I always recall my own sensei's godan exam - only a couple of attacks each keiko, but 100% success. Of course for shiai you probably need to take more chances but the judges really like to see that sort of thing in shinsa.

[kuzu70]

Not much to comment on tonight's keiko. It was good keiko and I tried to keep going forward. Tried to have the intent to strike when I went forward. That is all about I could manage to remember to do tonight. But is was good keiko nevertheless. Next keiko (wednesday night), if I can remember, I will think about the breathing technique that Neil mentioned.

It is good to hear everyones' opinions. It is kinda like image training.
I am still having difficult with the balance between attacking too much, when there is no openning, versus attacking too little and having no seme. Does that make sense?

[JoDuncan]

Neil expressed it really well: Intention.

In aikido we'd call it an "extension of ki" i.e. sending your mind from your hara through your arms, through the sword and out through the tip.

Maybe try and picture something powerful shooting out of the tip of your sword continuing in the direction it is pointing.

If you ever watch aikido videos, like the ones where it looks like the attackers are falling down. In fairness, some times they do just fall, but these are bad examples. No-touch throws are not hard to explain, simply you move out of the way of something that you feel is dangerous: zanshin. when my big sensei performs a fingers pass the eyes style kokyu nage (breath throw) there is a tremendous pressure coming from him which i interpret as "If i don't move he's going to rip my head off.". Now, he's a very nice man who would never hurt me (well, he has hurt me, but not maliciously) and i know he'd never whack my head, but still i go down.

Sorry to bring aikido into the equation like i do with most answers but it certainly can be applied here and might not have been anything you'd think of normally.

Search "unbendable arm". You can learn this in 20secs, just relax your arm and reach for something out in the distance without moving your arm. You will be extending ki.

I am far from good at this!! But i try. I think that seme is harder for mudansha because of the "no tsuki" rule, times in sparring i have intentionally opened my kamae (and hence removed seme) so that i wouldn't poke someone as they came in for the strike.

[Paburo]

seme has been covered extensively in the last couple seminars i've attended. basically what my sensei says all the time is that good pressure is putting your opponent against the wall, restricting his moves and leaving him with only one or two options.

the best foremost clear example of this is osae seme. you step forward, keeping center and slightly pushing your opponents shinai down, kinda like placing yours over his. if you do this for instance, you leave your opponent with only two choices: he either moves/tries to get his shinai out of the trap, or stays there to receive a good clean sashi men or ryote tsuki.

there are many many ways of applying seme-pressure with your shinai-kensen, to the opponents left eye, to the belly button, to the kote, to the men, in between the eyes, to the mune, to the tsuki-dare, against the opponents shinai, taking the center, etc. you should play with all these and find the ones that suit more your height, your skill, and your favourite waza. also, you should also try to use several type of pressures/seme because if you use the same method everytime it won't probably work for long and get old pretty quick with skilled opponents.

anyway, thats what high ranked sensei say.... me? i'm currently working in my special secret technique of the pegasus meteor thousand years of pain rising dragon seme and the ninja super stealth mushin mu-seme, lol :D

[hyuna]

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.duckweedsociety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=4&id=11&Itemid=30

do you know the author of that? there are a lot of things on there that do not make any sense to me.

[Charlie]

I have nothing to add, but wanted to say I just gave this thread an "excellent" rating. People that have been around this forum a while get to know each forum member and their background and when they spy advanced concepts being discussed by kenshi with more experience they should prick up their ears and pay attention.

Question: does "step in" literally mean stepping in from to-ma to uchi ma or can it mean a figurative stepping in?

[shred_lord]

I'm really interested in Badtz-Maru's post.

For me, when I fence sensei, seme is a way of achieving that position which will allow me to cut.

I move into a position of strength, and cut. (and then loose.. hehe.... oh well)

When fence Kohai it is mostly the same, but I can sometimes also use seme as a way of making my opponent think I'm already in that position of strength.

They move because they feel unsafe and I cut.

Kinda... hmm.

Problem is, now I've thought about it, I'm likely to mess it up. :)

Still, got another nine years minimum before I make Badtz-Maru's grade.

[enkorat]

I have nothing to add.... People that have been around this forum a while get to know each forum member and their background and when they spy advanced concepts being discussed by kenshi with more experience they should prick up their ears and pay attention.


Yes, I don't have much to add either, I'll be reading with attention though. If anything, its an excellent illustration of a simple question framed in a beginner's language hiding a very complex question asked by an instructor. If anything I'm glad I didn't go jumping in with some BS and telling a yondan they didn't know kendo and that they should practice more.... I would have died of shame....

[Paikea]

do you know the author of that? there are a lot of things on there that do not make any sense to me.After a bit of probing, it appears to have been written by Jim Murosako sensei.

[DCPan]

do you know the author of that? there are a lot of things on there that do not make any sense to me.

Yes, I know him personally. He was on Team USA back in the 70s or something.

If you want, I can send you notes of the conversation we had regarding his concepts...just PM me your e-mail address.

He's also the same guy who told me to thing about opportunity in terms of notes...if I can only play 8th notes and he can play 16th notes, I'll never hit him.

YMMV :D

[tango]

DCPan.... could you send me your notes on this, too?

PMing you my email now...

thx in advance!

[misterkurukuru]

DAVID
I just took a look at the website and i like what I see.

I have been practicing "notes/rythmes" for a few years now. every one has a rhythm to their foot work, even in their seme. if you can count it, you can hit them on their offbeats, or just know when they are coming for an attack.
I try to make my kendo like Jazz, sure there is a beat in my feet, but you never know when the hands going to start improvising. but this concept is more for timing waza.

It is important to be able to do many different kinds of seme. balancing these seme is hard because once you are effective with one seme, its easy to stick with it.

it is important to make your waza and your basic hits work with all of the different kinds of seme. tou-ma fighters try to use their hits inside and chika-ma people do the same for the outside. Its not going to work, you have to adapt your kendo and step out of what you are comfortable with. Insert long bearded MA master saying "kendo helps to make you into a well rounded individual, you will only have strengths, no weaknesses; you and your kendo will be the same." we must work to make our kendo effective regardless of the distance or style of seme. This comes with our fav. word, KIHON. There is not way around it, the better your kihon is , the easier it is to execute. And that is why kendo sucks balls and you always have to go back to working on your suburi and ashi sabaki.

[misterkurukuru]

sorry for the double post

here is a vid i found on the san diego kendo bu's webpage. its not my best shiai ever, but any sample is good.

me getting my ass handed to me 2-1 (http://www.sdkendo.com/photo/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=10842&g2_serialNumber=1)

note:this is the 2007 sckf championships, fat guys can move fast, the other guy controled most of the match, I dont do kendo like that anymore, if you have ever fought kasahara sensei...it was an experiance to fight someone with his kiai and facial expressions.

[Charlie]

And that is why kendo sucks balls and you always have to go back to working on your suburi and ashi sabaki.

Hahaha!

So. There are many types of seme. Seme going forward and going back. Seme involving the entire body and seme involving... just the hands? Just the feet? (I'm thinking out loud here.) Seme where you draw a line to an opponent's specific area to get him to open. Straight seme. Bendy seme. Seme where you brush the opponent's shinai to see what happens and time your waza as a response.

Maybe?

[tango]

And that is why kendo sucks balls and you always have to go back to working on your suburi and ashi sabaki.

Hahaha!

So. There are many types of seme. Seme going forward and going back. Seme involving the entire body and seme involving... just the hands? Just the feet? (I'm thinking out loud here.) Seme where you draw a line to an opponent's specific area to get him to open. Straight seme. Bendy seme. Seme where you brush the opponent's shinai to see what happens and time your waza as a response.

Maybe?

I think... absolutely.

[kuzu70]

Question: does "step in" literally mean stepping in from to-ma to uchi ma or can it mean a figurative stepping in?

Well at least for me, stepping in is literal, meaning stepping in from to-ma to issoku-ito-no-maai.

[kuzu70]

Yes, I don't have much to add either, I'll be reading with attention though. If anything, its an excellent illustration of a simple question framed in a beginner's language hiding a very complex question asked by an instructor. If anything I'm glad I didn't go jumping in with some BS and telling a yondan they didn't know kendo and that they should practice more.... I would have died of shame....

I respect your humitliy. As for being an instructor, that is just in the United States, that yondan is considered an instructor (is that true in other countries as well?). I know in Japan, yondan kenshi are a dime a dozen (especially with kendo, like myself). On that note, I think I still have a lot to learn from everybody on this forum. Just reading some of the posts (during work!) keeps me thinking about kendo, and on the next keiko and on what to focus on. This is really helpful for me. Otherwise I would just go to keiko and just try to get through the keiko. Have thoughts like, oh there is 30 minutes left, and keep looking at the clock and such.

[Charlie]

Hanging out on this forum is like that for me, too. It's my way of doing kendo when I can't do kendo. I basically just can't get enough kendo.

Seme is a bastard. I was just discussing this by PM with Tango and was thinking of certain sensei who put seme on me (like it's voodoo or something) not with their kensen but the absence of their kensen. One sensei takes a seigan to my left eye. And because I know what he's capable of I feel that kensen "over there" to my left somewhere. Takes kote out of the picture and makes me feel that if I go after it I will be overextending myself. Meanwhile men is miles away. I am left feeling powerless, like I'll never reach that men. That is seme, isn't it? Of course I do my best but he just counters me and/or lets me take uchikomi-geiko.

Kuzu, do you always fight from to-ma? I've noticed a lot of the good fencers in my area fight from a pretty close chika-ma. So there's not a lot of struggle at to-ma into chika-ma unless I'm the one backing up to make that happen. Meanwhile, I normally fight at chika-ma myself, although I experiment with backing out into to-ma. This greatly affects seme, I think.

[Charlie]

So why is it when sometimes you go forward there is seme, and at other times there is no seme?

Just thinking out loud, but could it be that sometimes when you are going forward you are doing so at the right time and owning that encounter, and other times it's your opponent that has the center?


When you hit men or kote when there is no apparent opening does it contribute to seme?

You had the seme already? Or the opening was there independent of any seme you consciously caused?


When you get close to scoring a point, does it contribute to seme?

Not sure what you mean here.

[Halcyon]

Seme is a bastard.
LOL. This is the wisest utterance I have read in ages. Brilliant!

I've noticed a lot of the good fencers in my area fight from a pretty close chika-ma. So there's not a lot of struggle at to-ma into chika-ma unless I'm the one backing up to make that happen. Meanwhile, I normally fight at chika-ma myself, although I experiment with backing out into to-ma. This greatly affects seme, I think.
I've actually noticed the opposite myself with effective shiai players, especially the younger ones. Many of them step in quickly from to-ma to their uchi-ma and then attack without pause. I suppose it's the most obvious form of seme. You definitely don't want to linger in issoku-itto-no-ma if you can't stay completely focused. My sensei calls it seishi-no-ma -- life-or-death distance.

[enkorat]

About a month ago I was doing gigeiko with a yondan here, and he told me that if I didn't "take the chushin" when I stepped in I was in trouble.

Thus from what I understood at the time, stepping in without having control of the center (chushin) is not seme....

Am I wrong?

[Halcyon]

Thus from what I understood at the time, stepping in without having control of the center (chushin) is not seme....

Am I wrong?
Well, yes and no. There are different ways to take control of the center. Taking center doesn't necessarily mean your shinai has to be in the centerline, though that is the most obvious way. Think about jodan, for example. Or ki-zeme.

[DCPan]

Kuzu, do you always fight from to-ma? I've noticed a lot of the good fencers in my area fight from a pretty close chika-ma. So there's not a lot of struggle at to-ma into chika-ma unless I'm the one backing up to make that happen. Meanwhile, I normally fight at chika-ma myself, although I experiment with backing out into to-ma. This greatly affects seme, I think.

At least from a development standpoint, I would hesitate from practicing too much in chika ma.

In my limited view:

1. In chika-ma, it is hard to build anticipation, since you are kind of already in engagement distance. Unless you are VERY good at maintaining the tension, the tensino could actually drop since your opponent is getting use to being in your striking range.

2. It is much harder to put your body into the strike without making it too deep.

3. Breathing.

I'm under the impression that in an idealized situation, the exchange in one breath.

So, you'd want to be in toma, hold your breath, and get in and out in one breath.

If you can't make a good strike within that breath, you need to get out of maai to exchange that breath, or sneak one via tai-atari/tsuba-zeriai, as your changing of breath provides an opprotunity to be attacked.

YMMV.

[kuzu70]

Kuzu, do you always fight from to-ma? I've noticed a lot of the good fencers in my area fight from a pretty close chika-ma. So there's not a lot of struggle at to-ma into chika-ma unless I'm the one backing up to make that happen. Meanwhile, I normally fight at chika-ma myself, although I experiment with backing out into to-ma. This greatly affects seme, I think.

You know, I always thought I had good maai, that I started in to-ma and closed the maai to issoku-itto/chika-ma when I was ready to attack, but that is probably not true. My maai is probably too close as well. As others are commenting, maybe if you hang out in issoku-itto/chikama without the intent to strike, there is no seme.

Actually, yesterday I went to keiko and concentrated, I guess more on kiai more than anything. This helped with my "intent to strike."

Gotta go work a little. I will come back and think about this later.

[Charlie]

Really interesting feedback, guys. Like I said, where I'm from, there seems to be a lot of fighting from chika-ma unless I am really misreading the playing field. Any other kenshi in the midwest care to comment on what you're seeing in shiai or jigeiko? I am thinking of all the kenshi I regularly bout that I consider good shiai players. Most of them seem to get into chika-ma, even a little close, and crackle with energy daring you to do something. Then: sashi-men, sashi-kote, doh. I have to admit it's affected the way I fight and I have to remind myself to pull away and fight from to-ma. I quite like harai attacks, too.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Whoah, let's get some concepts straight between us. When I think of to-ma, I think of too far to hit without stepping in. When I think of issoku-itto-ma, I think of close enough to hit with one big step, ie at your outside range which for most people is around yokote-ma, tips just crossed. When I think of chika-ma, I think of close enough to hit without stepping at all, shinai about half-crossed.

Most people fight from issoku-itto-ma as I've just defined it. If you fight from chika-ma, then it can become just a battle of straight speed/technical skill. So stronger players love it if you come in close, they'll beat you from inside every time. If you play further out, you at least have a chance to make something happen with your own spirit, or at least you'll have a little more time to react to the incoming attack.

[michaelm]

Applying seme from toma is something that I am particularly struggling with, too.

By some freakish athletic gift, my short asian legs are able to leap quite far without taking a preliminary step forward. So much so that I am sometimes able to hit men from chudan vs. chudan from a static position at toma where the kensen are barely touching or even a couple inches apart.

So all the sensei keep telling me, "Farther, Michael. Farther."

My problem with this is that at my current level (nidan), I feel like I still need the physicality of the two shinai touching to have that seme/chushin conversation. And when I'm further out as sensei suggests, I feel like I'm in limbo when trying to control the chushin, much less trying to create an opportunity to strike.

Unfortunately, this often frustrates me to the point of discouragement and I end up just closing the distance and not working on improving what I'm being asked to improve. At the end of class, I feel like I've had a crap practice, and wasted my once-per-week chance to make my kendo better.

-Michael
(just venting, too, I guess)

[EDIT: Neil posted before me. His working definitions of the different maai are better]

[DCPan]

Whoah, let's get some concepts straight between us. When I think of to-ma, I think of too far to hit without stepping in. When I think of issoku-itto-ma, I think of close enough to hit with one big step, ie at your outside range which for most people is around yukoto-ma, tips just crossed. When I think of chika-ma, I think of close enough to hit without stepping at all, shinai about half-crossed.

Most people fight from issoku-itto-ma as I've just defined it.

I prefer to think from yoko-te no ma to uchi-ma nowadays :D

YMMV

[Neil Gendzwill]

Thanks for the correction, David. I meant "yokote", the line dividing the kissaki from the rest of the blade. A yukoto is likely something completely different.

[DCPan]

Thanks for the correction, David. I meant "yokote", the line dividing the kissaki from the rest of the blade. A yukoto is likely something completely different.

Oh, I sometimes like to add hyphen to separate where one kanji begin and another ends.

Yoko is the same thing as the yoko in "yoko-men", or across.

Te is the same kanji for hand.

Started thinking about yokote no ma as that's where we are asked to begin and end in kata.

[kuzu70]

Just thinking out loud, but could it be that sometimes when you are going forward you are doing so at the right time and owning that encounter, and other times it's your opponent that has the center?



You had the seme already? Or the opening was there independent of any seme you consciously caused?



Not sure what you mean here.

When you strike men or kote when your opponent has strong kamae, does it contribute to seme? If you get close to getting ippon, does that contribute to seme (the next time you attack)? For example, if you get close to getting a kote, lets say, on your opponent, your opponent will be looking out for your next kote attack, right? Can you utilize this vigilance your opponent has for your next kote attack, seme your opponent's kote and go for kote-men renzoku waza. I am not sure if I am explaining myself clearly. If you are fighting an opponent whom you are having difficulty "seme-ing" (difficulty causing a reaction, difficulty causing him to attack), will attacking at will help you build up some sort of seme?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Hmm. I think part of "seme" is psychological on the side of the aite. He has to believe that you are a threat. For a junior person, just getting into a match with a senior person is intimidating enough, they might jump at any little move. For a senior person, it's the opposite - we might go into a match not knowing much about the aite or maybe knowing his rank but not necessarily considering that relevant, but it doesn't take very long before his kamae tells us he's a threat or not.

So along that vein, several legitimate attacks that show the aite where you might be going can contribute to that, get him nervous when he sees a similar movement starting.

I'm not sure whether all this (over)thinking from the aite is technically part of your seme, but it sure contributes to whether you are able to open him up or not.

[Charlie]

Ah! No, that seems clear to me and I think the answer is definitely yes! I think you can sometimes persuade an opponent, "This is what my kote attack looks like... oh, look, I am going for kote again - OOOPS, MEN! See what I did there?!"

At least, that's what I think!

So, Neil and Michael, are we still talking about the same thing? When people say "step in" they mean starting at to-ma, maybe playing with the angle or adjusting their body and kensen left, right, up, down, step in and boom. As I said, most kenshi I know fight the kind of fight Neil just described, or something similar at yo-kote (never knew that phrase).

[Halcyon]

Can you utilize this vigilance your opponent has for your next kote attack, seme your opponent's kote and go for kote-men renzoku waza. I am not sure if I am explaining myself clearly. If you are fighting an opponent whom you are having difficulty "seme-ing" (difficulty causing a reaction, difficulty causing him to attack), will attacking at will help you build up some sort of seme?
I personally wouldn't describe that as building up seme, but I see what you mean now. I think it's a perfectly valid tactic. In fact, I try to do that when I'm in jodan, since I can't physcially manipulate my opponent's shinai with my own.

[Charlie]

You know, on further thought, this happens to me often. A couple of ai-men with a fast player and I start to doubt my ability to do ai-men with him or her. Couple of fast kote that don't quite connect will have me hiding my hands and fluster me.

Hmmm, good call!

[kuzu70]

Try the heart of a kaishaku (re: the link I gave).... :D


This heart of kaishaku concept sounds deceivingly simple, I think. What does it mean? How does it relate to seme?

[Charlie]

Kuzu, ever performed the kaishakunin iai kata from any ryu? It's kind of frightening. You envision yourself prepared to be kaishaku to your friend. Your friend is in seiza, preparing to commit seuppuku, you are off to the side standing or sitting. When the time comes you silently and quietely draw the blade in a way that the condemned man can not see it. Then you raise the blade over his neck in hasso or jodan and wait. Now you are in a terrible place: you are about to behead your friend or colleague and you have to do it neatly, in one stroke, at the right time and, depending on the ryu, with such a cut that you do not sever the head entirely but leave a bit of frontal neck connected. I did not notice the "heart of kaishaku" piece David is referring to (was it in those notes?) but perhaps the concept refers to total commitment, the presence of death and a perfect sword stroke hovering and waiting to strike over the condemned man's shoulder.

[tango]

From the notes:

Heart of Kaishaku
- the opponent can't read your intent if you don't have any
- let their positioning decide where you should hit, don't decide where you want to hit.

- The Kaishaku is the person that honors the person who is honor bound to commit seppuku by cutting off their head
- This person accepts this task with reluctance, unconditional love, and follows through with clarity.
- In Kendo, there is no position that does not have at least one opening. When the opponent determines how they want to die, we must honor them by killing them exactly the way they wish and in a timely manner...

[Charlie]

EDIT: Tango, that's some heavy stuff right there.


I believe the seventh kata in MSR first set is the kaishaku kata. Shown here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dsTWfMjI0ls

[hyuna]

Applying seme from toma is something that I am particularly struggling with, too.
as a tall person, i have always struggled with seme from far away. i suppose, to be technical, instead of saying toma, we should say outside of shokujin.

i think that everything comes from the confidence that you are able to hit at any time. if you do not have that confidence, then there will be no seme. this is particuarly true when the shinai do not even touch.

when the shinai touch, you can communicate with your opponent through the shinai. but when you do not even have that contact, you can only communicate with them through your body language (i imagine most would say "spirit"). so you have to find a way to control the center -- to assert your control over your opponent -- through that "spirit."

[Paikea]

From the notes:

Heart of Kaishaku
- the opponent can't read your intent if you don't have any
- let their positioning decide where you should hit, don't decide where you want to hit.

- The Kaishaku is the person that honors the person who is honor bound to commit seppuku by cutting off their head
- This person accepts this task with reluctance, unconditional love, and follows through with clarity.
- In Kendo, there is no position that does not have at least one opening. When the opponent determines how they want to die, we must honor them by killing them exactly the way they wish and in a timely manner...So...now you ALL have to come to Obukan and get this from the author. It's deep stuff, and we're never really sure when he's yanking the chain or being dead serious.

He can also roll his eyes back into his head, smile and then hit you six ways from Sunday.

[tango]

hehehehehehehe

[Neil Gendzwill]

When people say "step in" they mean starting at to-ma, maybe playing with the angle or adjusting their body and kensen left, right, up, down, step in and boom.Sometimes they mean that, but you can certainly "step in" from closer.

[tango]

I stumbled on this link by accident a little earlier and have been going through it for the past hour or so...

http://www.osi.uio.no/kendo/pdf/Noma.pdf

Here's the portion I just finished reading (it's at the VERY end of the link) and thought some might find it relative to the discussion..



22 KEN-TAI (offence and defence)

The words Ken and Tai mean literally to attack and wait, but they are more readily understandable as attack and defence.

In Kendo the thoroughgoing and direct attack is the most highly valued, of old we have been taught 'not to think of receiving, but of striking'. However this does not mean that it is right merely to strike or attack recklessly. In shogi this is known as over-advancing the pieces, and in kendo as over-striking, or over-attacking and is something to be avoided. The old teaching informs us that, 'In pursuit and retreat one must know the limits'. Over attacking tends only to invite disaster.

In the book on strategy (The Art of War) by Sun Tzu it is written;

The master of encirclement always leaves a route for the enemy to escape; he never rushes in upon an entrapped enemy.

So, what is the correct thing to do? The answer is to attack when one should attack and wait when one should wait. Moreover there is the teaching Ken-Chu-Tai (defence within attack and attack within defence). While attacking one also watches and waits, and while waiting and watching one is on the verge of attacking. When this is achieved it is known as Ken-Tai-Ichi (attack and defence as one).

Ken-tai is explained in the following way in the Shinkage-ryu Heiho Kadensho

Ken means to attack single-mindedly, to strike fiercely in order to be the first to strike a blow. Whether possessed by the opponent or by oneself, the feeling of Ken remains the same.

Tai means resisting making the initial technique while awaiting the opponent’s first move. It must be understood that tai is a position of the utmost watchfulness. Ken and tai mean to attack and wait.

Concerning the principles of ken-tai pertaining to the body and sword, advance upon the opponent with an attacking posture and hold the sword in a position of waiting, making efforts to entice the opponent to make an attack and counter it. In this way ones posture is in an attitude of ken and the sword in one of tai. The ken posture is used to induce the opponent to initiate the attack.

Ken-tai pertaining to the mind and body. The mind should retain an attitude of tai and the body an attitude of ken; this is because if the mind retains an attitude of ken and it races and this is not good; thus have the mind wait in tai, and with the body in ken induce the opponent to make the first move and defeat him. Again there is the principle whereby the mind takes an attitude of ken and the body in one of tai; the reason for this is that with the mind in ken it is put upon its guard and with the sword in tai the opponent is induced into making the first attack. One should think of the body as being the hand that holds the sword. Thus the mind takes an attitude of ken and the body one of tai. Ultimately both methods are the same, the aim is to induce the opponent to make the first move and defeat him.

Again, a poem from the Hozo- in-ryu tradition of so-jutsu (spearmanship) reads:

With hands in tai and legs in ken advance unflaggingly, like waterfowl

Here we are taught the way of ken and tai as one. Also in the Itto -ryu Densho concerning Ken-chu-tai and Tai-chu-ken we find:

In nature, a one sidedness of either Yang or Yin does not exist. At the extreme of Yang, there emerges Yin. In the different stances, there are those of Yin and Yang, attacking is one of Yang and stopping is one of Yin. The stances of Onken, Jodan and Inhonken all are of Yang. When I am trying to strike the opponent I watch the colour of his sword and react accordingly, not merely trying to initiate the first blow is to take a position called tai. Induce the opponent to make the first move and react accordingly. When you advance in trying to make the initial attack in a one sided attitude of Yang and without the aid on Yin, you will find great difficulty in opposing a strong opponent. Therefore try to combine the attitudes of Yang and Yin during combat.

In tai-chi-ken, to wait does not mean to stand still in waiting, if you stand still in this way you will become stiff and fast and lack power and you will be defeated when you stop.

Again, the stances known as seigan, shinken and gedan are all of Yin. These are the stances of receiving and stopping the opponent’s technique. Depending on the situation it is difficult to leap in with lightning speed from these stances as they are by nature waiting attitudes, but when you take this to mean merely to wait you will be caught slow and defeated. Therefore show an attitude of tai, but within take an attitude of ken. With Yang within when advancing if there appears a weakness in the opponent attack immediately and defeat him. This is what is known as the place where Yang and Yin aid each other for victory. To describe the way of combat; if the opponent attacks we wait and if he waits we attack, this is the main principle of tactics. Even when we attack, depending on the opponent’s moves, we may suddenly take to defence, and when defending the opposite may be so. These are called the tactics of surprise and expediency; they are the application of swordsmanship.

There should be an extreme of neither Ken nor Tai.

[John Seavitt]

I think part of "seme" is psychological on the side of the aite. He has to believe that you are a threat. For a junior person, just getting into a match with a senior person is intimidating enough ... For a senior person, it's the opposite ... it doesn't take very long before his kamae tells us he's a threat or not.

So ... several legitimate attacks ... get him nervous ... it sure contributes to whether you are able to open him up or not.

Sorry for the minimizing, Neil, I tried not to mangle anything central. There's been a bunch of really thoughtful stuff in this thread, and while it far exceeds my ability to exercise it in bogu (particularly David's points about breathing), some points have been made to me in a koryu setting that may or may not be helpful.

As you suggest, basics like kamae form the foundation of presenting any kind of seme - if they aren't spot-on, any advanced opponent will see right away (and juniors that can't see will still benefit). I think of the psychological in the same way, though - there has to be confidence and a willingness to -crush- aite, which will be seen by trained eyes (as will its lack) and still have an effect on those who can't yet see it. Once stuff like that is in place, there's lots of strategies to lead aite here, there, and into the kensen (that I'm sure I should learn).

I don't doubt that some of the kendo versus koryu language is sometimes different on this concept. Still, I've heard it from at least one kendo instructor, and there's some similar concepts from way back in my aikido days (somebody's already mentioned extending 'ki', though I'm not sure the aikido words convey quite the same concept, nor, of course do the koryu concepts maybe work out quite the same when there's shinai and bogu to keep peril at a minimum).

John

[michaelm]

as a tall person, i have always struggled with seme from far away. i suppose, to be technical, instead of saying toma, we should say outside of shokujin.

Can you explain the term "shokujin"?

I used the term toma, but really it's my opponents toma, while at the same time being the outer limit of my own issoku-itto.
Still, just because I have more reach than my opponent, doesn't mean I have an opening. I've skewered myself on sensei's shinai plenty of times to confirm that.

Against less experienced kenshi, I can fly forward from a far distance and it feels like I have plenty of time to adjust my attack to their response. Against peers and stronger kenshi, I feel that I don't have enough seme-umph to "kill their spirit" from further distances, so I need to step forward, let our two shinai have a little chit-chat kissy-kissy, then maybe I have the option of "killing their sword" to create an opening.

I know that my physical ability to reach from an unexpected distance should be something that I can play to my advantage, but it's that "seme bastard", as Charlie says, that really fails to come through for me.

-Michael

[Ignatz]

I have read the thread several times and I have gotten some insight.

I can say this, seme is like pornography. I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.

[hyuna]

Can you explain the term "shokujin"?

shokujin no maai, unless i've mangled the word, is the distance at which the kensen are just touching.



Against less experienced kenshi, I can fly forward from a far distance and it feels like I have plenty of time to adjust my attack to their response. Against peers and stronger kenshi, I feel that I don't have enough seme-umph to "kill their spirit" from further distances, so I need to step forward, let our two shinai have a little chit-chat kissy-kissy, then maybe I have the option of "killing their sword" to create an opening.
i know exactly what you mean.

my understanding has been shifting over the past year or so. these days, i am thinking of seme almost as something that my opponent does to himself (with a little bit of help). i am almost so far over right now that i wonder if the only reason that i don't have enough seme from far away is because i don't think i have enough seme from far away.

we work from the premise that if your opponent feels fear, surprise, etc by your attack, then they will flinch and open up. if my opponent can see that i am not confident, then he will not feel these things. then, the only way in is through physical technique. it is almost as though coming in to where the shinai touch is a crutch that i can fall back on when i am not confident enough. instead, i want to express so much confidence and strength that it makes my opponent feel doubt that their kamae is as strong as they think.

the thing is, when your reach is longer than your opponent's, you will always have the option of "killing the sword" because they will have to come in to their own reach before they can attack. if you can express enough confidence that it makes your opponent hesitant or nervous when they want to step into their distance, then you are likely to have an opportunity to hit as they step in. if they are not afraid, then you will not have an opportunity and you will have lost your advantage.

something like 3 years ago, i asked the about this very topic at an auskf kendo camp. the answer i got was that if your opponent can come to their distance, you have already lost. i've puzzled over that answer since then, and this is where it has led me :)

[DCPan]

Part of me like to compare seme with "display behavior" in the animal kingdom...as those not aware enough to understand what the display behavior means are usually the displayer's next meal anyhow.

YMMV :D

[kartoffelngeist]

seme is like pornography

That's awesome, I'm going to spend most of next year looking for an excuse to say that to someone...

I think I also agree with Ig's point, I think seme's definitely something which can be seen/felt without necessarily knowing what it is or how to do it.

The first time I noticed it existing as a notion was probably when my sensei was doing hiki-waza against me. When he popped into jodan and sprung backwards, I could still feel him pushing forwards. Hard to explain, and it may not even be seme, but still awesome.
I'd never thought of it in aiki terms, but that's definitely interesting...

[Charlie]

Such a thoughtful thread you've started, Kuzu.

So, hang on, you tall/gangly guys that like to operate from further out, what about the seme caused by the absence of the kensen? For example, how often have you seen a good player drop into gedan or a very low chudan, then step in, then suddenly the shinai is coming back up and through or around the center and to an attack. In this case, the seme is being made not with kensen since kensen is off to, say 4 o'clock or 5 o'clock or so, but with the kenshi's gut - no, really, his physical stomach/hips. Am I describing this well? In other words, you face an opponent, opponent drops his sword down low and off to one side, he steps in, next thing you know the shinai is up and over and on one side of your men. It's like with jodan... the seme is caused/or can be seen by the fighter's tsuka, hands and elbows, bearing down on you like a hooded cobra (like what DC just said).

I think - just thinking - it's a mistake to think that an opponent will flinch or show surprise or fear when seme is applied. I think it's more accurate to say an opponent reacts, usually, in my experience, with just as much aggression as you have. Sure, sometimes you can get an opponent to break and feel doubt or confusion and you can frighten a junior, but with a peer it's confidence vs. confidence and when you open something with seme it's not because you make him flinch but because you simply divert his... well his "force field" or defense somewhere else. Example, in issoku-itto-no-maai I move my shinai just a little bit up and to the right, towards 1 o'clock. My opponent follows... kote is open (so is my men).

[Paburo]

charlie. yes, i think that when there's a high level difference between the competitors fear comes into play, but among more skill-leveled fighters you can't really expect one of them to scare the hell out of the other with seme.

like i said before, i personally think seme is restricting your opponents moves, like a chess match. the seme you mentioned would be sort of a check:


For example, how often have you seen a good player drop into gedan or a very low chudan, then step in, then suddenly the shinai is coming back up and through or around the center and to an attack.

kote and dou are covered. at first sight it only leaves you with two options, attack men/tsuki or sit and wait he attacks men for you.

ultimately perfect seme would be like checkmate? i.e. you put the opponent in a position where he cannot attack, only receive a clear ippon. i don't think you necessarily need to use the kensen to do this. anyway... just more random thoughts lol

[Charlie]

I know, Paburo, a lot of thinking out loud on this thread, which I think is okay you just have to work through this stuff, hold it up to the light and examine it from every angle.

Tango, what you quoted from The Kendo Reader is frigging heavy man. Frigging heavy. I need to tape that one up and re-read it from time to time.

[shred_lord]

Tango, what you quoted from The Kendo Reader is frigging heavy man. Frigging heavy. I need to tape that one up and re-read it from time to time.
Exactly why I have a copy printed and bound into a little pocket book.

Ken-Tai-Ichi is often mentioned at our place along with En and Ko-Bo-Ichi.

Ken-Tai-Ichi, I have been told, is central to seme, because as you apply seme your opponent may open a suki or attack you. Ken-Tai-Ichi makes you ready for either.

[hyuna]

So, hang on, you tall/gangly guys that like to operate from further out, what about the seme caused by the absence of the kensen? For example, how often have you seen a good player drop into gedan or a very low chudan, then step in, then suddenly the shinai is coming back up and through or around the center and to an attack.
Well, some people can drop, come in, and score, it's true. But other people will drop, come in, and then get hit -- this is something I know from personal experience ;)

There is something different, but I don't think it is something technical (meaning it isn't something to do with the physical technique), and I don't think it has anything to do with speed (although that is what most people will blame it on). The difference is that ineffable bastard seme.

[R Stroud]

For me, SEME is one component of TAME.

[Halcyon]

For me, SEME is one component of TAME.
I second that. My sensei's favorite instruction while I was prepping for my 4 dan exam was, "Don't hit! ... Don't wait!"

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

could someone please explain what TAME is ?

[JSchmidt]

;276574']could someone please explain what TAME is ?

I believe it comes from tameru, roughly translated to build-up.

[michaelm]

Well, some people can drop, come in, and score, it's true. But other people will drop, come in, and then get hit -- this is something I know from personal experience ;)

There is something different, but I don't think it is something technical (meaning it isn't something to do with the physical technique)


Yeah. I guess this is that "know it when you see it" thing again.
From a far distance, I can often use something like a modified mini-katsugi waza to disturb my opponent, but in my mind it is still a trick/tactic and not necessarily what we're all trying to describe as seme.

Reading through this thread again, I realize that I really need to pay more attention to kata practice. When performed well, the conversation between the two kenshi is definitely there--even in the absence of bokuto contact. From the beginning of Ipponme, uchidachi and shidachi are building up seme/tame to force the situation that unfolds. When watching ipponme performed this way it is really beautiful. Without it, I think most people can discern its absence.

-Michael

[Paikea]

;276574']could someone please explain what TAME is ?An excellent resource (http://www.kendo-usa.org/reference/j_e_dictionary.htm)...

[Charlie]

From a far distance, I can often use something like a modified mini-katsugi waza to disturb my opponent, but in my mind it is still a trick/tactic and not necessarily what we're all trying to describe as seme.

You mean, you bring the shinai up toward your shoulder and then out toward the target? Yeah, I dunno. I would think that would be seme, since you go from pressure straight ahead to pressure somewhere off to the side, and as your opponent rushes in or backs off to figure out what's going you attack.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

I believe it comes from tameru, roughly translated to build-up.


An excellent resource (http://www.kendo-usa.org/reference/j_e_dictionary.htm)...

thanks thanks... very interesting, from the dictionary:

Tame (n.) A moment of mental and physical preparation, accumulating strength and spirit, before starting a technique.

Seme (n.) Retention of superiority in relation to an enemy through Kiryoku, the Shinai, and Datotsu.

Ki-ryoku (n.) 1. Dynamic spiritual energy used to create activity. 2. A spiritual reserve used to bolster the body after the limitation of physical strength has been surpassed.

Ki-zeme (n.) To overcome an opponent through spiritual energy rather than physical action.

[michaelm]

You mean, you bring the shinai up toward your shoulder and then out toward the target? Yeah, I dunno. I would think that would be seme, since you go from pressure straight ahead to pressure somewhere off to the side, and as your opponent rushes in or backs off to figure out what's going you attack.

Yeah, but I think that the difference is that a perfect trick might work once against a strong opponent, but he'd be wary of letting you do it again. Whereas perfect seme behind (any) waza could be used successfully indefinitely.

For example, one sensei might only go for straight no-fuss men, he might even tell me so beforehand, but I am still helpless to the inevitable outcome. It is not just the waza is it? I might be tempted to believe it was speed, as Arthur has suggested--but that's not really it either.

He's broken the rhythm of my defense. Maybe I inhaled. Maybe he caught me thinking about my own attack. I only know that for him, I was open, and like the heart of the kaishaku (http://www.duckweedsociety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=30), he honored the opening by swiftly filling it.

I'm not sure, but that ghostly <something> that describes his seme is what?
1) He actively does <something> to create an opening
2) He actively perceives a lapse in my <something> and seizes the opening
3) Some combination of the above--but which weighs more, I don't know.

-Michael

[Charlie]

Geez, good points, Michael.

[kurisu]

;276602']thanks thanks... very interesting, from the dictionary:

Tame (n.) A moment of mental and physical preparation, accumulating strength and spirit, before starting a technique.

Seme (n.) Retention of superiority in relation to an enemy through Kiryoku, the Shinai, and Datotsu.

Ki-ryoku (n.) 1. Dynamic spiritual energy used to create activity. 2. A spiritual reserve used to bolster the body after the limitation of physical strength has been surpassed.

Ki-zeme (n.) To overcome an opponent through spiritual energy rather than physical action.

Spiritual energy is something that is difficult to underdstand or believe in
for many with a Westerners, but like a lot of things in life, believing in something and acting accordingly can make a difference in the outcome.

[Ignatz]

Well, some people can drop, come in, and score, it's true. But other people will drop, come in, and then get hit -- this is something I know from personal experience ;)

There is something different, but I don't think it is something technical (meaning it isn't something to do with the physical technique), and I don't think it has anything to do with speed (although that is what most people will blame it on). The difference is that ineffable bastard seme.

Maybe, but I also think that the more people you practice with and the more techniques you see will lessen the "deer in the headlamps" response.

I just added a new technique to my arsenal and used it against one of my personal favorite opponents and caught him completely flatfooted. I think it was mostly because he is used to me and not expecting this particular thing.

On the other hand, I have also used it against players who know I'm going to do it and I catch them too, but they are not nearly as good as the player above.

Seme? or something different? I'll let you know Saturday after I try it again when my opponent knows I will do it.

[MAZ77]

something like 3 years ago, i asked the about this very topic at an auskf kendo camp. the answer i got was that if your opponent can come to their distance, you have already lost. i've puzzled over that answer since then, and this is where it has led me :)

I love this statement and that is what i think seme is.

I say it because those whom have strong seme, know where their distance is. When they are in that distance, there confidence overpowers you and you KNOW something is about to happen, but you feel almost defenseless. Thus, if a strong player is in his distance, and you allowed him to get there, you are either 1) going to get hit, or 2) you have to parry as best you can but forget about any oji waza....its that powerful and overwhelming.

May I ask whom gave you this perfect (at least in how i relate to the concept) definition?

[kuzu70]

Kuzu, ever performed the kaishakunin iai kata from any ryu? It's kind of frightening. You envision yourself prepared to be kaishaku to your friend. Your friend is in seiza, preparing to commit seuppuku, you are off to the side standing or sitting. When the time comes you silently and quietely draw the blade in a way that the condemned man can not see it. Then you raise the blade over his neck in hasso or jodan and wait. Now you are in a terrible place: you are about to behead your friend or colleague and you have to do it neatly, in one stroke, at the right time and, depending on the ryu, with such a cut that you do not sever the head entirely but leave a bit of frontal neck connected. I did not notice the "heart of kaishaku" piece David is referring to (was it in those notes?) but perhaps the concept refers to total commitment, the presence of death and a perfect sword stroke hovering and waiting to strike over the condemned man's shoulder.

No, I have not performed this kata. This concept of total commitment is pretty awesome. It kind of reminds me of the concept of sutemi, but I guess it is a little different. It is really difficult to have total commitment to a strike or to an attack, because I know it is only keiko. It is difficult to have total commitment, because it is kendo and you are utilizing shinai, and it is safe and you won't get hurt (relatively speaking). Doing keiko in your same dojo, week after week, it becomes difficult to have this sort of intensity and commitment to your attacks. Thus, I feel my "intent to attack" is pretty half-assed. Tame was defined as "A moment of mental and physical preparation, accumulating strength and spirit, before starting a technique." Sounds like one needs total commitment to the upcoming attack. This attack needs to be launched from your own issoku-ito no maai. I suppose all of this contributes to seme.

[enkorat]

This is a very interesting thread and there is much still that I don't quite yet understand... I am not at your level yet, so I won't be able to contribute much.

However, I have had several opportunities to practice gigeiko with kodansha, and one of the things that I sort of feel, is that they're always applying "seme" regardless of what direction they're actually moving.

This is something I don't understand yet, or understand how to do it, but I can feel the difference. Its hard for me to place into words, but with sandans maybe yondans I don't often feel "itchy", but starting with godans and rokudans I start feeling pressured all the time because the seme feels like its always there.

It sounds weird...but thats what I understand at my particular level....

[misterkurukuru]

I dont know, there is only one guy I really get nervous fighting and i think he is only 6 dan.

rank is nothing, its all about skill, the worst seme is the kind you do to yourself.

I believe we all need to be more observant. we are not going to have a BDZ style battle of KI where someone gets blown away and shit starts flying everywhere. watching movements, timing, observing body positioning, and tendencies is the start of things. THEN we have to execute when its time to fly.

Tony gwynn wasn't a good hitter because he was buff, black, on roids, or fat. He was good because he would endlessly study pitchers, on top of cleaning his swing up.

watch someones body mechanics during suburi, watch how each part of their body moves when executing a strike, i think mitori geiko is highly under-rated.
are we good enough to make these observations, and do something about it?
i think we should all start there.

[kuzu70]

I dont know, there is only one guy I really get nervous fighting and i think he is only 6 dan.

rank is nothing, its all about skill, the worst seme is the kind you do to yourself.

I believe we all need to be more observant. we are not going to have a BDZ style battle of KI where someone gets blown away and shit starts flying everywhere. watching movements, timing, observing body positioning, and tendencies is the start of things. THEN we have to execute when its time to fly.

Tony gwynn wasn't a good hitter because he was buff, black, on roids, or fat. He was good because he would endlessly study pitchers, on top of cleaning his swing up.

watch someones body mechanics during suburi, watch how each part of their body moves when executing a strike, i think mitori geiko is highly under-rated.
are we good enough to make these observations, and do something about it?
i think we should all start there.

This is very true. Sometimes I get selfishly lost thinking about my own kendo and do not watch other kenshi. It is extremely important to be able to watch your opponent and discern his weaknesses and strengths. Oftentimes in shiai, you have to make this distinction very quickly and improvise. Having said this, this is one area of my own kendo that is vastly underdeveloped. I have spoken with several kenshi that I regularly practice with and they tell me, "when you lower your kensen I can get kote-men" or "you are weaker when I seme your ura-side" etc.
After all kendo is all about your aite and giving him respect.

[cooleric06]

there is two different types of seme . my sensei (dad) lol told me . one of them is the physical seme which is the foward movment . then theres the mental seme , which is very hard to explain . you learn the mental seme with expirience . i think that mental seme is more of not lookin away from your opponent and having a state of mind of alertness and focus . well too me you have to have both to have good kendo =D

[hyuna]

May I ask whom gave you this perfect (at least in how i relate to the concept) definition?
I went back to my notes to doublecheck. That was advice given by Taguchi sensei during the Q&A session at the 2005 AUSKF summer camp.




i think mitori geiko is highly under-rated.
are we good enough to make these observations, and do something about it?
I find mitori geiko to be so much harder than regular keiko. There are so many things to see, and so much of it is so very subtle and difficult to pick up on (much less understand). It is difficult for me to figure out if I am moving forwards or backwards when watching. There have been so many times that I have thought I picked up something by watching someone, only to later be told how incredibly wrong I was. This is especially true of something like seme, which seems to be both very individual and also very circumstantial. I would very much like to become better at it.

[Charlie]

Kuzu: man, I feel sutemi is sorely lacking in my kendo. It's been a priority for me in my training. I really like what you were saying.

Mr. Kurukuru makes a really good point about mitori-geiko. I hate to say it but I fiendishly watch and rewatch matches on YouTube trying to observe important things, as well as, of course, mitori-geiko when appropriate at practice/seminars/shiai/etc.

[Halcyon]

After all kendo is all about your aite and giving him respect.
My sensei said something recently that relates to this. When you enter into jigeiko or shiai with someone, he said your opponent's rank or experience level shouldn't matter -- in the sense that during that moment, it's just two people engaged in combat. Even if your opponent is much higher-ranked than yourself, if you create good harmony with him, you will be able to elevate your own kendo to his level. Conversely, even if you are much higher ranked than your opponent, if you don't give him the proper respect and give it your all, your kendo will be dragged down to his level.

[Charlie]

That's fascinating. I know I often feel I do much better kendo against my betters, that they are drawing my best kendo out of me. (Video has sometimes proved this. I'll see vid of me getting demolished and think "Why don't I look like that all the time?")

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

My sensei said something recently that relates to this. When you enter into jigeiko or shiai with someone, he said your opponent's rank or experience level shouldn't matter -- in the sense that during that moment, it's just two people engaged in combat. Even if your opponent is much higher-ranked than yourself, if you create good harmony with him, you will be able to elevate your own kendo to his level. Conversely, even if you are much higher ranked than your opponent, if you don't give him the proper respect and give it your all, your kendo will be dragged down to his level.

That´s deeply true... It has happened to me and friends and it´s just soo real... after you come out you asked yourself ...was that me?

I was having this conversation today, about seme v/s mizete with a sempai. he said that in his opinion a mizete was a form of seme, and that usually in kendo when someone talks about seme per se, they refer to ki-zeme or the mental set in keiko or shiai that makes you have the initiative in all moments... this made a lot of sense to me, considering that seme literally means to attack, and in kendo we are encouraged to attack and then strike.

[MrChow]

I competed in shiai for the first time a month ago. I watched my first opponent when his team were warming up and his suburi looked good, better than mine. I then thought to myself "he must be pretty good, I'm up against it already". Is this considered seme as well?

[Halcyon]

I competed in shiai for the first time a month ago. I watched my first opponent when his team were warming up and his suburi looked good, better than mine. I then thought to myself "he must be pretty good, I'm up against it already". Is this considered seme as well?
No, dude. That's called psyching out your opponent. Actually, not even that. That's just psyching yourself out.:ko:

[Ignatz]

No, dude. That's called psyching out your opponent. Actually, not even that. That's just psyching yourself out.:ko:

The four poisons of kendo.

[Rob W.]

This is a great thread, one of the best on KWF. Thanks to everyone who's contributing. I wish all threads were like this.

Seme is a concept that when described in language seems mystical and unreal, but in practice is tangible, measurable and eventually attainable. Concepts like these are one of the reasons I enjoy kendo so much.

[JByrd]

;276574']could someone please explain what TAME is ?

To understand tame I think about blowing up a balloon: If I put in only a small breath, the balloon is not taut and explosive, but flabby and loose. When I poke the balloon with a pin to set it off, it does not go BANG!, but instead it goes pffft. To have tame I must put a full measure of breath/energy/ki into every attack. Every time I strike it should go BANG! whether my shinai hits my opponent or not.

[sainueng]

watch someones body mechanics during suburi, watch how each part of their body moves when executing a strike, i think mitori geiko is highly under-rated.
are we good enough to make these observations, and do something about it?
i think we should all start there.

Slightly off topic, how do you translate what you see in motori geiko to actual keiko?

One of my problems is I see things differently when watching a match from the side versus up against the opponent. From the side I can see certain tell signs, which are actually not as visible when observing from the front of the kendoka. Yet mitori geiko is kind of difficult to do standing directly behind one of the players. :D

If anyone has better hints about this I would really appreciate it.

[kuzu70]

After reflecting on what has been shared on this thread, I have been having better keiko. I know it has only been about a week, but my keikos have been better. It seems that there is a spiritual component of seme. Sure the physical component of seme is very tangible. The physical part of seme includes you kamae, waza and various other skills. This is my opinion, but it seems to me that the spiritual part of seme includes your attitude and mindset. These include your attitude towards keiko, towards your opponent, your mindset when you perform waza, etc. I have found that by just thinking about some of the concepts of seme that were mentioned here on this thread, I look forward to going to keiko, I try to give all of my opponents respect (I try, but sometimes am not successful). I have been concentrating on "intent to strike" and striking when appropriate. These adjustments in my attitude has really helped me in such a short time. Now, physically there are no changes in my kendo. I still strike the same way, and my waza repetoir has not increased. There are people that have different kendo in keiko and and in shiai. I am one of those people. I have been told, your kendo is ok during keiko, but what happened at shiai? The only difference is my attitude and mindset.

[bullet08]

it's like do you drink to get drunk, or just for the taste of the beer.. or both. when i was in school, any cheap beer did the job. getting drunk that is. then i realize that there are lot more to beer than just getting drunk. getting drunk is still fun, but there are so many different beer to get drunk on and they all taste different. so.. do you move forwards just for sake of moving forwards, or are you pressuring your aite? ever move need to have some reason behind the move, or else they are all just waste of energy... like cheap beer..

pete

[JByrd]

It seems that there is a spiritual component of seme.

I think that is true, and it has to do with our confidence in ourselves. In a recent practice I observed that the senseis would signal the end of the keiko by allowing the students a free strike to the men. I was amazed at how many people missed their free hit, not only me, but even some 4 and 5 Dan people. To me it's a lack of basic confidence that leads to an expectation of failure, which in turn causes us to do things that assure our failure.

[DCPan]

I think that is true, and it has to do with our confidence in ourselves. In a recent practice I observed that the senseis would signal the end of the keiko by allowing the students a free strike to the men. I was amazed at how many people missed their free hit, not only me, but even some 4 and 5 Dan people. To me it's a lack of basic confidence that leads to an expectation of failure, which in turn causes us to do things that assure our failure.

It is interesting that you should bring this up.

I can't speak for others, but personally, in keiko, when the sensei suddenly open up like that, rather than seeing it as a free strike, I instinctively feel like I'm being "baited" because the opening is "too good to be true".

Not everyone takes opening purely on a visual cue...if something "looks" open but I feel like the person is ready for me to "take" that opening, I get wary....

Of course, then I realize it's the signal for end of keiko, I feel stupid, composure rattled, then I make a half-assed hit because you hesitated, then it's all down hill from there....

YMMV.

[Ignatz]

Years ago I got the opening from my sensei and didn't take it. He asked me why and I said "you would just have blocked it ahd hit me." His response "Of course I would. I'm sensei. When I can't, you can be sensei".

I almost always try to take it now.

My problem is that now sometimes I am doing keiko with one of my sensei and have an actual opening and don't take it because I just can't believe that I actually made it.

[DCPan]

Years ago I got the opening from my sensei and didn't take it. He asked me why and I said "you would just have blocked it ahd hit me." His response "Of course I would. I'm sensei. When I can't, you can be sensei"

It is the mentality change from being in an "competitive" exchange to being mutually cooperative that's hard to do on a flip of a dime.

The feel of an opening that you've found/created vs one that is given is simply different.

If the sensei would ease up on the pressure when he gives the freebie, then I'd be more inclined to take it instinctively, as that "feels like" an opening.

YMMV :D

[Charlie]

Really appreciate your insights, Kuzu.

[Charlie]

Slightly off topic, how do you translate what you see in motori geiko to actual keiko?

Whole 'nother thread, isn't it? I personally have a lot of time applying what I see to what I do. And openings? Forget it, I have to watch tapes over and over to see how it happened. (Makes you think, "Hey, I don't want this dipshit to be shinpan on my court!")

[Charlie]

Well, I had crap keiko last night! No, I shouldn't say that, keiko is always good. I just found myself thinking a lot about seme and everything we've discussed here. Thinking too much. However, I think sometimes your keiko is just like that, you're processing things or trying things out, and some nights that's just the mode you're in You have to build on those. So, it was okay, but I was in a different mode last night.

[kuzu70]

Well, I had crap keiko last night! No, I shouldn't say that, keiko is always good. I just found myself thinking a lot about seme and everything we've discussed here. Thinking too much. However, I think sometimes your keiko is just like that, you're processing things or trying things out, and some nights that's just the mode you're in You have to build on those. So, it was okay, but I was in a different mode last night.

Hey Charlie, keep at it. I have a lot of those types of keiko too. If you just do the same shit at keiko all the time without thinking about anything, how can you expect to imrove?

[lucy]

Wow, I understand maybe 5% of what you are talking about here, but even that has helped a lot already! Thank you for this great thread.

[bobdonny]

Kuzu, nice and simple kyu exlpanation.

Going forward is a process.

Seme is and outcome.

Many different processes can lead to seme as an outcome, sumi sensei showed us at the weekend something called seme ashi (attacking foot) you can also achieve seme by quickly opening up your eyes wide or moving your shinai.

You can move forward but it only results in seme if you move forward with intention...

Make sense?

[kuzu70]

Had good keiko yesterday. Went to a dojo with three 7-dan sensei and several 6-dan and 5-dan sensei. Again, I was told to "ochitsuke" or calm down. The sensei did not tell me to stop attacking specifically, but to strike when appropriate. I was also told that my maai is too close. That I start from issoku-ito no maai and step in (physically) to chikama no maai before striking. By doing this, this particular sensei states that it all becomes a matter of who is faster physically and who has the fastest reaction time. He states (loosely translated from Japanese), the match because one of "who could ring the bell the fastest." He stated that by starting from more of a to-ma position (where the shinai tips are touching) the match becomes one of kendo. Any thoughts?

[sainueng]

Had good keiko yesterday. Went to a dojo with three 7-dan sensei and several 6-dan and 5-dan sensei. Again, I was told to "ochitsuke" or calm down. The sensei did not tell me to stop attacking specifically, but to strike when appropriate. I was also told that my maai is too close. That I start from issoku-ito no maai and step in (physically) to chikama no maai before striking. By doing this, this particular sensei states that it all becomes a matter of who is faster physically and who has the fastest reaction time. He states (loosely translated from Japanese), the match because one of "who could ring the bell the fastest." He stated that by starting from more of a to-ma position (where the shinai tips are touching) the match becomes one of kendo. Any thoughts?

On my last visit to Taiwan this summer, a 6-dan sensei also told me that I was attacking too much. I would get into issoku-ito no maai and attack. He said that became predictable and consequently non-threatening, or no seme. He said I should do more waiting instead.

My first reaction was "Isn't waiting generally considered a bad thing in kendo?" But I think now I better understand what he meant, a bit. Against a sensei I tend to have the thinking of "I am not expected to win, so I'll try my best and just attack-attack-attack." However, that actually weakened my kendo since it became very predictable.

I think waiting, or change of pace, helps to raise your danger level, and consequently is also a form of seme. (This assumes that you are ready to strike while waiting, of course. ;)) If you are ready to strike, yet do not strike, your opponent then might hesitate and starts to doubt if he can safely make a strike against you. He then needs to take extra effort and thinking to break you down before attacking himself. This then gives you the opportunity to make an effective attack. Of course if your opponent is much better than you and can strike you at will, you're out of luck anyways. :D

[Paburo]

Had good keiko yesterday. Went to a dojo with three 7-dan sensei and several 6-dan and 5-dan sensei. Again, I was told to "ochitsuke" or calm down. The sensei did not tell me to stop attacking specifically, but to strike when appropriate. I was also told that my maai is too close. That I start from issoku-ito no maai and step in (physically) to chikama no maai before striking. By doing this, this particular sensei states that it all becomes a matter of who is faster physically and who has the fastest reaction time. He states (loosely translated from Japanese), the match because one of "who could ring the bell the fastest." He stated that by starting from more of a to-ma position (where the shinai tips are touching) the match becomes one of kendo. Any thoughts?

kuzu, i often get corrected this myself from sensei who are really fast and skilled. i know that if i attack them from isso or toma i will get my ass kicked, debanaed or ojiwazaed, so i close the distance and often find myself fighting from chikama. imho this is bad if you get used to it, because chikama is just one distance and if you are ONLY able to attack from there your kendo will be lame and incomplete.

i also got the comment of the 'fight of the fastest from chikama'. in my case they say fighting from this distance is like a wild west gunmen duel fight. the fastest wins. no strategy nor technique, just speed.

one thing i tried and that works sometimes is taking a very very small step from isso (instead of a normal step where i would reach chikama), short enough so you don't get too close(chikama!) but (just) long enough to cause a reaction on the opponent....

[misterkurukuru]

dude , i could have told you that!
actually i did, but a while back...

sometimes you have to force the game to come to you, and not always force yourself into the game.

i got to get a few rounds in with you, maybe pci or a saturday.

[DCPan]

He stated that by starting from more of a to-ma position (where the shinai tips are touching) the match becomes one of kendo. Any thoughts?

Hmm...I would surmise it is a matter of target availability. If you are moving from issoku-itto no ma to chika-ma, your target availability is more limited than if you start from to-ma.

Also, if you are starting that close, there's less time for your opponent to respond and less time for you to play off that response.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Supposing that you step in without enough or any seme. If you are the faster player, you can probably win from there anyways. So if you are practicing seme, what are you testing really? If you are the slower player, you've just put yourself in danger. OTOH if you can make your opponent open without coming to chika-ma, then you have really done something. You can do this regardless of whether you are the slower or faster player, if your spirit is strong enough. This is more advanced kendo, which is what Kuzu's sensei are asking him to do.

[misterkurukuru]

sometimes the old farts want to slow you down so they can hit you, or stop to say something to take a breather :laugh:

the bad ass ones never stop and teach you through kendo to questions, experiment, and to ask yourself. a little old school i know, but at some point, we kendo must be improved internally and not mechanically.

[Charlie]

Hm. I for one would like to speak up in favor of fast play at close distance. As I said, I know many very good kenshi who fight this way and they seem to do it very well. I would disagree that this kind of fighting is boring, predictable or limiting. Some kenshi I know can still cut all four target areas from this close.

It seems to me perhaps that kendo and seme operates on two different planes. One plane is the distance between you and your opponent or the maai. The other is the "clock face" in front of you, with tsuki as the center of the clock and both opponents able to explore with their kensen the various o'clocks around the clock face.

So everyone can play/experiment with maai and kensen and of course people have their preferences. Example: player likes to start at to-ma, step left and right, and move kensen to left or right of opponent's shinai. Or player plays at chika-ma and drops kensen low, as I described.

I think I am repeating myself here. Sorry! I'm still chewing over some of these thoughts.

[kuzu70]

Good keiko tonight. I tried to watch my maai. Tried to start from to-ma, or shinai tips touching/barely crossing position. Felt pretty good. I did not score as many points as I usually do againsts my opponents, but the points I did get felt pretty good. Got a pretty good ai-uchi kote men againsts one of my sensei; did not expect to get it. Was a mushin-type of move. Fighting/starting from to-ma, then stepping in, with intent felt like my wazas were "cleaner," like I was able to score ippon with good timing. I don't know. It was one practice, but I gotta say, this thread is helping me with my kendo. Thank you, everyone who has been contributing their thoughts.

[tango]

kuzu -- glad to hear things are (re)developing nicely!!

Keep up with the updates!

[kuzu70]

I had a tournament this weekend and did well. I felt like my seme was better. Felt like I was moving forward with the intent to strike. I am very grateful for the comments posted on this thread; they have been incredibly helpful for me.

Higher ranked sensei have been telling me to stay calmer and be selecitve with my attacks. They have been telling me to fix my kamae.

I have gotten great advice from kenshi my level and below. They told me to stay aggressive, and to push people out of bounds, ONLY when the opportunity presented itself (The last tournament, I was too nice and let my opponents stay inbounds, even when they were a foot away from the line). This helped me to stay aggressive during my matches. I also received advice to do my own kendo. I was told that my strengths during shiai are that I hide my weaknesses well and that I draw out my opponents well. This type of advice, along with the various opinions on this thread have helped me with my kendo, in particular, at this last tournament.

I still have a lot to work on. I have to work on what higher ranked sensei tell me. I have to fix my kamae. Some people have similar shiai and shinsa kendo. But, my shiai kendo and shinsa kendo are pretty different. And I guess that is alright for now.

I just wanted to thank everyone for their help and wanted to express my gratitude.

[kuzu70]

Practiced with Mr. Kurukuru tonight. He got a clean-ass men on me during ippon-shobu. I still have a lot to learn. Thanks for the keiko Mr. Kurukuru. Mata yarimasho.

[MAZ77]

Practiced with Mr. Kurukuru tonight. He got a clean-ass men on me during ippon-shobu. I still have a lot to learn. Thanks for the keiko Mr. Kurukuru. Mata yarimasho.

I find that if you tell him he wont get beer after practice, or threaten him with Nakauchi sensei, he tends to back off. Try these tactics next time.

[kuzu70]

Keiko last night went pretty well. One of the sensei told me to have "tame." He told me to take the first step in from to-ma and tame. He said the first one to back up or break his kamae loses. That was really good adivce. Another sensei told me "en o kiru na" which literally translates into "do not break the circle." This means to always stay within good maai and don't break maai intentionally when you engage an opponent (I think that is the gist of it, please help me out if I am not correct). He also told me to keep up my kiai until zanshin. I guess these are all simple things, but very hard to maintain during jigeiko.

[tango]

i've also heard this concept of "the first to back up or break kamae loses" .... and this mixes very well with the notion -- at least when i think about higher ranking folks in keiko --- of creeping forward more often than not.. (as opposed to just taking a giant step forward, although maybe that sometimes works in certain situations when you're mixing things ups).. by creeping forward, you generally give yourself room to continue forward and are less likely to feel a need to back up or reset everything... this is not as easy to do if you take a huge step forward at the beginning.

for example..

i know that if i take a large step forward, sometimes i'll STOP moving forward because I didn't get a reaction out of the opponent, and then I feel I have to wait for something (in which case, I'm attacking or counterattacking from a standstill).. in other words, I move in to such an extent that I can't really *pressure* forward (physically) anymore -- I'd have to go straight to tsubazeriai (not a bad option) or I have to back out and reset.
What *I* want to try and do is move forward with smaller steps and that way, I can try to keep putting physically forward pressure on the opponent and attack (i.e., not attacking or counterattacking from a standstill)...

That's what I'm trying to describe...
hope it makes sense or is helpful in some way..

[Neil Gendzwill]

Rogers, you don't really need to move forward at all to pressure the aite. Just think forward.

ETA for the juniors following this thread: move forward, you guys. This is more advanced advice.

[H.Sandsleth]

i know that if i take a large step forward, sometimes i'll STOP moving forward because I didn't get a reaction out of the opponent, and then I feel I have to wait for something (in which case, I'm attacking or counterattacking from a standstill).. in other words, I move in to such an extent that I can't really *pressure* forward (physically) anymore -- I'd have to go straight to tsubazeriai (not a bad option) or I have to back out and reset.
What *I* want to try and do is move forward with smaller steps and that way, I can try to keep putting physically forward pressure on the opponent and attack (i.e., not attacking or counterattacking from a standstill)...


I think that the "Grading book/dvd" advertised on this site says something about this. I've just began to try to incorporate some of what the books says into keiko, and the results are very interesting. The book uses/shows the basic "one step in" -seme.

I'd like to mention one particular comment on the dvd, about practicing counter attacks that goes like "move a step forward before the attacks comes so you have no chance to hesitate"....

[JByrd]

you don't really need to move forward at all to pressure the aite. Just think forward.


I like the way you put that.

The idea that one must physically move monotonically forward can be taken too far. About a month ago I had a keiko with a sensei of short stature who kept moving in trying to provoke a men attack, presumably to take my dou. I held steady on his nodo until I was almost able to just reach out and hit his men without even moving my feet. I actually managed to hit his men fairly cleanly with a short, quick step. Seconds later, he took my shinai away from me.

When I watched the video, it looked to me like the cleanest hit I got when I passed 3 Dan started with a short tactical retreat. As my opponent moved in to close the distance again, I attacked his men.

[tango]

Rogers, you don't really need to move forward at all to pressure the aite. Just think forward.

ETA for the juniors following this thread: move forward, you guys. This is more advanced advice.


Oh, I realize that.. I really was just concentrating on describing the physical...

Thanks for pointing it out, though!

[Mudansha]

I just wanted to bump this thread - as someone just barely scraping the surface of trying to applying pressure and create openings, it has helped tremendously. I got hit mukae-zuki a lot recently and after going through this thread and having it swim around in my brain, keiko tonight went much better. Thanks, kuzu sensei, you might remember me from a certain 6 am keiko at a certain university ~ 4 years ago!