Better stick with seigan

[MaxPayneWayne]

What is it with all these people starting Jodan and Nito? Don't you think if you sucked in Seigan you'll suck even more in Jodan and Nito seeing as how they are much more difficult kamae? While I was in Scotland cheering my hero (B. Smith) on, I was amazed at how awful some of the Jodan kenshi were. I mean, they just stood still. No seme at all!!!!! I thought Jodan was an offensive kamae???? People start Jodan or Nito kamae with almost zero experience with Seigan and they don't even have a sensei who can teach them Jodan or Nito so they're asking people on this forum??? Do you think you'll be any good???? Do any of you have a good reason for starting these kamae? Sorry if I sound a bit offensive, but I'm sick and tired of people stinking up tournaments with their godawful Jodan/Nito/Hasso/Gedan/Waki or whatever. Stick with Seigan, you'll be alot better that way. Thank You.

[Danny Boy]

What is it with all these people starting Jodan and Nito? Don't you think if you sucked in Seigan you'll suck even more in Jodan and Nito seeing as how they are much more difficult kamae? While I was in Scotland cheering my hero (B. Smith) on, I was amazed at how awful some of the Jodan kenshi were. I mean, they just stood still. No seme at all!!!!! I thought Jodan was an offensive kamae???? People start Jodan or Nito kamae with almost zero experience with Seigan and they don't even have a sensei who can teach them Jodan or Nito so they're asking people on this forum??? Do you think you'll be any good???? Do any of you have a good reason for starting these kamae? Sorry if I sound a bit offensive, but I'm sick and tired of people stinking up tournaments with their godawful Jodan/Nito/Hasso/Gedan/Waki or whatever. Stick with Seigan, you'll be alot better that way. Thank You.


Agreed 100%. Dont do anything fancy if you're shite at it.

[heri0n]

who cares... just smoke them then..

[Shazzanzzz]

I don't know why you are so offended with people doing nito and jodan. People can do whatever they choose to do. You do live in a free country, right?

And what's wrong with people in jodan standing still. A lot of people do that in chudan too. It's just how they fight. Plus, I don't think you're supposed to move if you're in jodan.

[aru-ma]

you don't like people doing bad nito or jodan? don't look, or next time you do keiko with someone doing a bad jodan/nito beat them, show them that they have a bad technique.

[xvikingx]

I think probably the best thing to do is to not get all bent out of shape about what other people are doing and worry about your own kendo. :smoker:

[Old Warrior]

aru-ma
xvikingx

I think you both have the idea. Kendo is the way of the sword. It's not, if you're no good - there's no place for you. I do poor nito, four days a week and try the best I can. I'll never be good, I only hope to be better tomorrow than I was yesterday. And, I will always give it my best effort. I don't think I owe the Kendo Gods any more than that.

[AlexM]

Wow...

Dude chill out a bit. It's just talk. So people suck at jodan and nito... what of it? Who died and made you the kamae police anyway? But what the Hell, I'm going to egg you on just for fun. :D


I now award you with the first ever John Ashcroft freedom award! This is for your defense of the freedom to ban open discussions and free thought! Congratulations mein freund! I mean... my friend! We here salute you heartily! Heil!

We all know the danger that we all face from the unimpeded and completely open discussions about subjects that should clearly be reserved only for the qualified! (or at least those that think they are) Whether talking about religion, politics or kendo it is obvious of the dangers that we all face by open discussions in a civilised manner.

Thank you sir for helping stem the tide of amateurs discussing the evils of jodan and nito (and then actually trying them).. because the next time people may actually start questionning more important things such as religion and politics. It's a slippery slope.. and we here at the John Ashcroft freedom awards are pleased that people like yourself recognize this danger and have stood up for what is right about America. Sir, you stand for our freedom to curb speech. You stand for the freedom of the those that have knowledge to look down upon those that seek it. You stand for the freedom to limit people's options. In our mind sir, you stand for freedom... period.

We remind you that freedom of speech in the wrong hands can be dangerous weapon. People must sometimes be told what to think, or the consequences could lead to outright questionning of the social order. And no one wants that. ORDER my friends is what separates us from those heathens in loin clothes running about in the jungles.

This is the John Ashcroft freedom awards commitee saying God Bless! (well, you God fearing Christians anyway... the papists, Jews, Muslims and others are going straight to Hell.)

[misterkurukuru]

Let me see… you other people are okay with kenshi trying a new kamae when they cannot even do regular kamae?? I think max is referring to the people that have only been doing kendo for a few years (8 or less) trying to do advanced stuff. HE also seems to be against people trying to do the kamaes without proper instruction. I do not find anything wrong with what he is saying. AND THIS IS NOT ABOUT FREEDOM… I swear that’s like the “race” card around here. I agree with the others as well, we should just kick their butts, but after a while it gets SAD. I am not against people trying new things, but they should have a good amount of training before they try a new kamae( i would say a good 10 years).

[kendokamax]

It really doesnt matter if you are good or not at kendo in your everyday life. So if someone wants to do Jodan or nitou ryu why couldnt they do it? Whats the difference between someone who did kendo for 1 or 2 years and tries to change to a difficult kamae like jodan and someone who comes to practices once per week? People arent in japanese high school here, they wont get beat up if they miss a few practices or they dont perform well enough.

Many people arent too serious about their kendo and how they improve or not in North america or other country were it is more considered a hobby. I dont think there is anything wrong with that since its more a way of escaping the worries of everyday life.

What pisses me off is more people that talks a lot about how good they want to be in kendo and gets mad if they would lose a match in shiai or etc, when they never show up in regular practice and do as they want with diseregards to everyone else in the dojo. To these people doing a different kamae they cant handle (when they cant even perfom in chuudan) might be a mistake and is hiritating.

In the other hand if someone is honeslty trying to improve with a different kamae why not? I guess if they do it for 10 years they will get good at it, even if they didnt play seigan for a 10 years before.

I seriously think that a big part of kendo is about being honest to yourself and about yourself.

[alexpollijr]

I only hope to be better tomorrow than I was yesterday.


Hear hear.

- Alexandre

[JSchmidt]

I just finished watching the e-bogu WKC tapes and I only saw two jodan players.
One, not so good, who got taken apart very quickly and a US guy (I think), who looked pretty snappy.They certainly didnt appear to be 'stinking up' the tournament with crappy jodan/nito.

Jakob

[misterkurukuru]

OH so you saw tenken(USA jodan). did you see moocow(USA Nito)?

[Nishi]

I saw Denmark (jodan), Great Britian (jodan) and USA (Nito), but I missed Tenken....Moocows nito was excellent, but i didnt care for the jodan displayed (as i said i missed tenken though).

[JSchmidt]

OH so you saw tenken(USA jodan). did you see moocow(USA Nito)?

Yeah, they got the whole team match of US vs Canada:..looked like a grudge match to me :D

The Canuck fighting moocow looked more like he was just going for destroying the nito to get the draw.

Jakob

[MaxPayneWayne]

hey shazzanzzz, you're not supposed to move if you're in jodan? see, this is what i'm talking about. people who are inexperienced kenshi making these ASSumptions. who "taught" you you're not supposed to move when you're in jodan??? again, this applies to people who are learning new kamae. they assume they know enough about kendo and so they think they can do these more advanced kamae. alot of you guys said "who cares?" well, the next time some beginner tsukis and gyaku dos the crap out of you let's see if you say the same thing. frankly, i would be insulted. tsuki and gyaku do are for more advanced kenshi, just like jodan/nito/hasso/whatever. it's insulting to see these inexperienced kenshi attempt these waza/kamae when they don't even have the basics down.

[Neil Gendzwill]

you're not supposed to move if you're in jodan?
More like, it's tough to move when you're in jodan. Or at least it is for me, I have a tendency to stand there like a dope after I've swung. Getting better now.

[kendokamax]

Tsuki is not an advanced tecnhique!!
It is one of the 4 basics target in kendo!

[alexpollijr]

There goes the little troll with the videogame alias causing ruckus again.

[Shazzanzzz]

hey shazzanzzz, you're not supposed to move if you're in jodan? see, this is what i'm talking about.


Again, I've said before somewhere I've only been doing kendo for about 2 years and obviously not whatever I say is right. I'm just expressing my opinion and saying what i know.
Max, what do you meen "not move" anyway. You mean no zanhsin after the hit, or staying in their kamae and not moving much before the strike. All I meant to say is that some people don't move that much when they're in chudan either (before strike), so, why can't they do that when they're in jodan? Has anyone been taught they HAVE to move around before striking, forward, backward, side to side. It's more of a personal style than anything. From what I've learned, if you go to jodan, you have to be strong and firm like a mountain, so I don't think you're suppose to jump around like some people do in chudan.

and of course, you would have to zanshin, go straight forward after you do a strike, from any kamae.

I never do tsuki, i don't trust my skills yet, could hurt people.
gyaku do, i do do sometimes, only when they are blocking the whole left side with the shinai pointing to the ground. I mean, what else can you do? maybe left kote, and tsuki's open, but, gyaku do's the most open and safest one to go for.

I ordered the wkc video too, can't wait to see it.

[JSchmidt]

From what I've learned, if you go to jodan, you have to be strong and firm like a mountain

Wrong analogy..I would use that more on chudan-styles, where you can rely on oji-waza. Jodan should be taken with the spirit of raging fire. This means moving forward, consuming everything in your path.

Jakob

[Shazzanzzz]

Wrong analogy..I would use that more on chudan-styles, where you can rely on oji-waza. Jodan should be taken with the spirit of raging fire. This means moving forward, consuming everything in your path.

Jakob


actually, that is much better. :)

[Nishi]

If you have an instructor for these kamae you can get away with learning them earlier, if theres no instructor you will need basic kendo foundation...meaning chudan, and like Mr Kurukuru said, the better part of a decade in chudan is a good start. If you have a jodan/nito teacher, then its up to them, not anyone on this forum. Everyone will "suck" when starting a new kamae. I say have a teacher for the kamae, or a good 6-8 years (not 8 years, but i missed 5years when the baby was born) experience....or you'll have to be like the rest of us and just try and understand the different kamae in case you face it some time.

Finally, i know how popular jodan/nito have become over the summer, i looked at jodan myself, but after realizing i dot know enough about kendo to train myself, and dont have access to proper instruction, i had to decide against it in the interest of my kendo overall...This has made me look deeper into chudan/itto, this is an awsome kamae, people are just looking for excitment and change, but training is repetative and unchanging, over decades, thats been my lesson.

[mingshi]

Nishi, was that Jodan you pulled out 5 times during our keiko challenge hmmmm? :rolleyes:

[Nishi]

Nishi, was that Jodan you pulled out 5 times during our keiko challenge hmmmm? :rolleyes:

Not sure...i wasnt really paying attention :silly: But the truth is as i stated above, i could never study full time and abondon chudan (on a serious level), i have no means of information and instruction, and my chudan is still weak.

I have worked with some jodan this summer to help understand the kamae, and more importantly seme.

Oh and another thing smarty pants...i didnt dare use anything but chudan against my taikai opponents (just my freinds during fungeiko).

[Inouye02]

now that my son has taken a liking to tenken now he wants to learn Jodan from him , hmmmm gues he doesnt care for nito yet , but he was watching moocow at the WKC with intrest , so which ever he choses he's damn lucky to know these 2 great guys to learn from later ,,hell he might get to learn some kurukuru waza too ..

[deviljun]

What everyone should keep in mind is that not everyone is practising Kendo for the same reason. Some people may actually like the whole "I am a bad-ass samurai and I can do Jodan or Nitou ryu", whilst others focus on actually improving their Kendo. It is, of course, your own choice, and no one can take that from you.

But I think it is sad watching these jodan/nitou whatever people struggling with a really bad Kendo, and not really understanding why their Kendo will not improve. What my senseis have told me, and what I have heard from other peoples senseis, is that it is better to wait with jodan until you can do proper Kendo from Chudan. And when you can do your jodan properly, you can start practising Nitou. One simple argument for this is, that if you cannot do proper Kendo with two arms, how would your Kendo be doing it katate (as in jodan), or even with two swords? Simple mathematics. Don't do complex equations before you can add or substract...

But we can only recommend people what might be best for them, it is everyones choice to do whatever they like. That is why everyones role as a sempai or sensei is so important, you have the opportunity to give good advice to other people practising Kendo, and in this case, it would be to not do any other kamae than chudan until you can do chudan properly.

And, if they will not listen to your good advice, then do the next best thing... Show them what good Kendo looks like, and kick their asses! Learning by pain... If you wouldn't be able to do so, then maybe it is your own Kendo you should worry about?