Building a dojo

[Porikuma]

Hello all,

Our club in building dojo for kendo, iaido ja jodo.
The floor is already quite nice.

The design of the floor comes from Noma dojo where one of our members
visited when he was making an graduation work for his school on different types on kendo dojo floors.

We have taken pictures of our work from the start, and we update them still every week.

If you are interested check our dojopages:
http://poridojo.googlepages.com/

all comments are welcome

[Nichiren]

Looks like a nice big open space... and bright too

grats !!

[Genya]

Looks absolutely great! Finally a real dojo in Finland. If you arrange some sort of camp when it´s finished I´ll surely be there :)

[tango]

very nice!!!

[Dervish]

Nice ... I can't wait to see the photos of all the Finnish Kendoka in the finished dojo :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Wow, sprung with actual springs! Very cool, and so exciting for you guys.

We also have good news - after years of putting up with a steadily degrading floor, the good folks at the YMCA have decided to completely replace it, and it will be done this September. We're really happy!

[Nichiren]

lol neil tell us how you did it ... we have been figthing for a new floor for years now :P they just fix little bits of it every year or 2 :P

[Neil Gendzwill]

We didn't do anything - they were eventually forced to replace it, as it was just getting so horrible, even for people in shoes. I called our contact there yesterday to confirm start dates for fall, and she just told me out of the blue they were replacing the floor.

[rottunpunk]

that looks nice.
congratulations dude(s)
:p

[Ari]

Looks absolutely great! Finally a real dojo in Finland. If you arrange some sort of camp when it´s finished I´ll surely be there :)

In that case, I guess we'll meet in September ;-)

Welcome!


t: Ari_k

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

that looks awesome, congratulations.

we also have issues with the floor, last February they closed the place for a full month and did nothing (!) they were supposed to "fix things"

[Lady_Kitsune]

Looks great congrats and good luck with it

[Porikuma]

Thank you all,,

We have also trained in various schools and public sports halls for fifteen years so this new dojo, although far from finished, feels like a small bit of kendo heaven :)

I take some pictures of the construction few times a week, so if you
stay tuned to our dojopages you can watch how we progress.

[Halcyon]

That floor looks like it's going to be gorgeous. Hung beams with real springs!

[R Stroud]

The design of the floor comes from Noma dojo where one of our members
visited when he was making an graduation work for his school on different types on kendo dojo floors.

Who was the master mind behind the construction details? Any chance he has photos from under the Noma Dojo floor? I have never been under the dojo but understand that the framework and crawl spaces are impressive. Your new floor gives some insight to this.

Would be very cool to see the under-structure this wonderful dojo is based upon.

Any chance we could get a reference to his thesis? I for one would like to see what he found while researching dojo floors in Japan.

Interesting side note, my private dojo floor is a "kit" from a Finnish company that has foam elastermeric springs giving it some spring.

[Owen]

my dojo used to be an old bowling alley :)

no springs under there.

[Neil Gendzwill]

For our new floor, we've asked them to mark out a permanent shiai-jo along with all the other gym lines they'll be painting. Should be handy!

[Halcyon]

For our new floor, we've asked them to mark out a permanent shiai-jo along with all the other gym lines they'll be painting. Should be handy!
Swanky! I don't think I've ever seen a permanent shiai-jo marking.

[Porikuma]

Who was the master mind behind the construction details? Any chance he has photos from under the Noma Dojo floor? I have never been under the dojo but understand that the framework and crawl spaces are impressive. Your new floor gives some insight to this.

One of our club members who teaches house building in school made the plans.
Yes he has some pictures from under the Noma dojo, and some other old and new kendo dojo as well.
At the moment his research is on in finnish, but we are about to translate it to japanese and maybe to english too if there is interest.

He had some great stories about the floors in japan, and the rare opportunity to go underneath the floors in some very old dojos. In most of the places even the sensei who practise there don't know what is under the floorboards.

[Rob W.]

He had some great stories about the floors in japan, and the rare opportunity to go underneath the floors in some very old dojos. In most of the places even the sensei who practise there don't know what is under the floorboards.

Tell us the secrets!

[Curtis]

This is interesting as I was told that the floor in Noma Dojo did not have springs. Yushikan Dojo in Tokyo is a private dojo run by Takahashi Sensei. I was told he copied the design of the Noma Dojo for his floor which he built himself.

The design he used was arched joists. You can clearly see the upward curve of the floor from the edge to the middle as you stand back and look at it. It is very springy and gives great energy to your footwork.

Tokaidai put in a sprung floor in their dojo and the students began having leg injuries. Seems the floor is too springy.

My home dojo is on the second floor so the spring is derived from downward deflection into the space below. With enough people in there it will suck the door open if it does not get latched.

I would really like to see those pictures.

[Porikuma]

I would really like to see those pictures.


I'll see what I can do.

[Ignatz]

Excellent!

I am interested in learning how you decided the spring rates. Did you just get them "off the rack" or did you have them made?

Looks to me that your main beams are approx 4x12 laminated and scarfed with 4x4 on top and 2x6 flooring.

I see the finished floor is not toung and groove. Did you glue them? Any concern about shrinkage?



We are hoping to break ground next year on a dojo. The outside is not a problem it is the floor that interests me the most. I have been thinking about springs and I like what you have done. Also tires are a possibility and some other thoughts. What were your considerations in deciding this final design?

Actually I have a million questions but these will be good to start.

[Porikuma]

Wow,
good questions.

The springs were custom made. They stand well over 1000kg each and the boards will spread the weight evenly so they are more than enough to stand our practise.
We talked about car tires but had the good chance of getting the springs quite cheaply.

The flooring is grooved from underneath and attached to beam with hooks made from nails.
If you look at pictures at:
http://aky.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Kendo/Dai+Kuma+Ken+Kai+/DOJO_rakennusvaihe/
you'll find pictures of both the hooks and the grooves. This way there will be no nails or other sharp things on the top of the floor.
Also the middles of the boards sides have small grooves and they are attached to each other by "cookies" made from wood.

Yes there will be some shrinkage, so we will do the final tightening of the floor in wintertime when its most driest.

Sorry, I'm not a professional builder so my answer may be somewhat vague,
but I can ask our dojo-building-senseis and get back to you afterwards.

[dwez]

This looks awesome, there's a whole Scandinavian forest in there - yummy. So much effort but I'm sure it'll be worth it.

[hl1978]

What are the construction costs involved for that? At my current dojo we just built a floor for ~3800sqft or so using cork and flooring (i think it was in the niehgborhood of ~5k or so). building a truly sprung floor was going to be quite costly.

[Kenzan]

Our community center is in the midst of rebuilding as well. They just replaced the parking lot, but the Dojo itself needs some repair, holes, blood splatters on the wall, you know, the usual.

[Ignatz]

What are the construction costs involved for that? At my current dojo we just built a floor for ~3800sqft or so using cork and flooring (i think it was in the niehgborhood of ~5k or so). building a truly sprung floor was going to be quite costly.

A 60x60 floor for $1.30 sq foot sounds really cheap unless you hijacked a lumber truck.:laugh:

About the cheapest finish floor I have found is T&G pine at about $1.50 sq ft. which does not count your cork underlayment. BTW, T&G pine makes a really nice floor (3.5" x 5/8 thick over two layers of 3/4 plywood) cost approx $3.00 per foot plus whatever your cost for the foundation.

I would guess that the 4x12 beams shown would cost you about $250 to make a 32 footer. On 8' centers you got 6 in a 32x48 floor for $1500.

Next they have 4x6 on what looks like 4' centers for another say $1200

Plus extras (springs+ $$$$)

My guess for rough floor would be in the neighborhood of $5.00 per foot (2x6 finish floor might be more, I have not priced lumber in a while)

total for 32x48 about $8000 plus labor plus all those little things that double and sometimes triple the price so I guess about $16,000- 20,000 plus the building.

If you gave it a whole lot of thought and were the GC and built it like the egyptians build the pyramids, i.e. slave labor, you could build a nice 1600 sq foot dojo for about $60,000 plus the cost of the land.

[Neil Gendzwill]

60K? Do you get heating, plumbing and insulation for that price?

[Ignatz]

60K? Do you get heating, plumbing and insulation for that price?

yes for insulation, no for plumbing and heating. The location I have is such that we only need heat in the dead of winter. Since I have a nice woodlot I might use a couple of wood stoves in the dead of winter if it were used then. Cost about $4000.00 Woodsplitting training is fun. kind of like whitewashing fences.

Kitchens and bathrooms are usually the most expensive part of a building I think. A standard septic system in my neck of the woods would cost probably $20,000. Start putting in bathrooms and kitchens and you easily double the price. $80-100 sq foot with no profit margin would be about right.

I envision a separate building for showers and composting toilets (which are expensive right now). Essentially the dojo we are planning is a barn with a really nice floor.

I only need to deal with grey water then. As for getting the water, I plan a 4000 gallon water tank on the ridge about 70 feet above the site which will also supply water to the surrounding orchard. Water is drawn from a pond below via jet pump powerd by either solar or wind and heated with on-demand propane water heater.

Biggest problem will probably convincing the local government that it is ok.

That and gettng the money.

I already own the land.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well if you don't have plumbing then the heating isn't so important. My judo club is in a machine shed at the instructor's farm. They just fire up the heater an hour or two before practice.

With a nice wood floor I'd be a little worried about cycling between extreme temperatures though.

But now that the Y's replacing the floor, I've got no motivation to build. We get everything we need (good floor, showers&lockers, central location, storage space for club crap) for way cheaper than we could ever do it on our own.

[Ignatz]

Well if you don't have plumbing then the heating isn't so important. My judo club is in a machine shed at the instructor's farm. They just fire up the heater an hour or two before practice.

With a nice wood floor I'd be a little worried about cycling between extreme temperatures though.

But now that the Y's replacing the floor, I've got no motivation to build. We get everything we need (good floor, showers&lockers, central location, storage space for club crap) for way cheaper than we could ever do it on our own.

With the temp usually comes the changes in humidity which is what screws up the wood. I think though that giving it some thought and building at the right time prevents lots of problems. Luckily my son has tons of experience building furniture (and having it warp or crack) and we have learned a thing or three.

Mostly I'm just interested in building to give me something to do while I'm waiting for my big ticket to get punched.

[Porikuma]

total for 32x48 about $8000 plus labor plus all those little things that double and sometimes triple the price so I guess about $16,000- 20,000 plus the building.


I think your quite near to our estimate of something like 20,000 euros.

We're lucky because we hire the space and it includes dressing rooms, showers and sauna so we didn't have to buy the land or house.

We have got from our sponsors or bought with money from sponsors everything you see in the pictures. So getting good sponsors has been what makes this all possible.

Also, all the work has been done by club members so no cost's there either, plus it has had great effect on club morale too.

[Neil Gendzwill]

With the temp usually comes the changes in humidity which is what screws up the wood. I think though that giving it some thought and building at the right time prevents lots of problems.What's the right time when your local temperature range is -40C to +40C?

[Ignatz]

What's the right time when your local temperature range is -40C to +40C?

The driest time is best for furniture and musical instruments because swelling up won't destroy it but shrinking will. So my guess for your local would be winter with the heat on. Bring the wood inside and let in acclimate for a week before you install it.
If you leave about 1/4 inch around the perimeter and make the finished floor free floating, when it swells it won't buckle (too much)

The Finland dojo looks like the floor is pretty much a slab with the "cookies" (we call them biscuits) glued in and the planks glued together.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'm not so sure using biscuits and glue is the best idea for a floor that is going to be nailed to joists. Won't it buckle with weather changes?

[Ignatz]

I'm not so sure using biscuits and glue is the best idea for a floor that is going to be nailed to joists. Won't it buckle with weather changes?

From the pictues it looks like the floor is not nailed to the joists but is floating. That is a heavy slab so it ain't like it's going anywhere.
I might have put an inch of rubber between the joists and the floor though.

Off to kendo class for me.

[Zao18]

That looks like it's gonna be one nice dojo! And congrats Neil ....bet that new floor will be sweet. The Ukrainian Federation Hall (where we do our sunday classes) just refinished their floor. Really nice to not have to worry about splinters anymore, but damn, is it ever sticky right now! You can't really slide along too well until you get a nice coating of dust and dirt on your feet. :lick:

[Porikuma]

From the pictues it looks like the floor is not nailed to the joists but is floating. That is a heavy slab so it ain't like it's going anywhere.


At the moment the floor is not nailed to the joists. We will do that in february or march when the wood has dried. For now, we will nail only the ends of every board so we can use it for training. But as Ignatz said, the floor is so heavy it's perfectly ok to use.

Also as we don't use any glue, opening the floor again in winter to tighten those gaps that are caused by drying will be much easier this way.

[Ignatz]

What was yourthinking behing the butresses at the ends of the main beams? (the 45degree things that connect to the walls?)

[Porikuma]

What was yourthinking behing the butresses at the ends of the main beams? (the 45degree things that connect to the walls?)

The idea is to give additional support agaist sideways movement.

The main beams are very stable in the direction of the boards, but because they are all on springs we want to make sure they can't fall down when there's sideways movement.

The area in front of the lockers will have hard floor for about 1,3 meters.
After that starts the sprung floor.

[Chaby]

Very nice!
I like the idea of permanent shiai lines.
Thanks for the pics,this is the first time that I can see more then usually meets the eye.

[Kuri]

Porikuma, that's going to be a great dojo to train in. Thanks for the pics that show the different stages of construction and general layout of the dojo. Just a small question, how is the surface going to be finished? Raw, oil (what type), wax, polyeurathane, ...?

[hl1978]

A 60x60 floor for $1.30 sq foot sounds really cheap unless you hijacked a lumber truck.:laugh:



I wish it was real wood, but it is some sort of bamboo with a laminate finish,

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V289B2PazKE

is a time lapse of the construction.

[Dervish]

A 60x60 floor for $1.30 sq foot sounds really cheap unless you hijacked a lumber truck.:laugh:

"It fell off a truck ... truck." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptHQvq4ysbc)

[Ignatz]

I wish it was real wood, but it is some sort of bamboo with a laminate finish,

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V289B2PazKE

is a time lapse of the construction.

It is some kind of pergo like thing. OK in a pinch but not something that will still be here 100 or 200 years from now. Well that in not completely accurate but still, ok in a pinch. Better than carpet which I trained on for several years.

[Porikuma]

At the moment the plan is that the floor will be just sanded and polished for a smooth surface. No lacquer or varnish or anything.

[Neil Gendzwill]

It is some kind of pergo like thing. OK in a pinch but not something that will still be here 100 or 200 years from now. Well that in not completely accurate but still, ok in a pinch. Better than carpet which I trained on for several years.I built my daughter's dance practice room using cheap laminate flooring - it was $1.20 a foot IIRC. Had to buy a few sheets of 3/4" sheathing for underlay, and put the whole shebang on top of the carpet that was already in the room for extra spring. Turned out a little too soft, actually. At least I know it will be easy on her knees and feet (Irish dancers hit the floor hard).

Anyways, it's held up OK but I don't know as I'd want to use it for any sort of long-term facility that got used by a lot of people.

We have a high-quality laminate tile floor in our kitchen that was professionally installed - I think it was more expensive for materials than the wood floor in the dining room that I got from Home Depot for about $5/foot. But it's held up beautifully.

[Ignatz]

Laminate plusses:
Dimensionally stable
lasts forever

laminate minuses:
cannot be refinished as it is just a photograph of the wood
lasts forever and ever and ever

Engineered flooring is more expensive but is actual wood on top and could be refinished. Also dimensionally stable.

For a dojo I'm inclined to use the 5/8 pine T&G. Keep it dry and it will last 1000 years and since it is dojo use, it should never have to be refinished. Actually is should not be finished at all except planing rather than sanding. The finish we put on our floors is to protect the floor from heels and furniture etc. none of which is in the dojo.

As for dimensional stability, I have a couple of guitars from the 1930's and 1940's that are fine in humidity swings because they were properly built.

Neil: If the Irish cut back on the drinking maybe they wouldn't hit the floor so hard.

[Porikuma]

Hi,

Kari -our dojo researcher and planner- has kindly made available some pictures he has taken from the Noma dojo. In these you can see the springs underneath.
They can be seen at:
http://aky.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Kendo/Dai+Kuma+Ken+Kai+/DOJO_rakennusvaihe/Other/
the three first pictures are from Noma and the last is from our dojo and shows a bit of flooring board from the Noma dojos floor.

Enjoy

[dwez]

So that's an actual piece of Noma dojo floor in your dojo? did that go in the 'carry on' luggage on the plane? The amount of grain in the wood suggests an interesting experience on the feet, or was that a piece not from an area well travelled.

[Porikuma]

The piece of wood in our dojo is from the center of the Noma dojo floor.

In second picture you can see the new boards that are fitted to the Noma dojo floor,
the piece in our dojo is from one of those boards that were removed.

[Jklak]

I spend my last weekend practicing seitei jodo in Dai Kuma Ken Kai dojo in the city of Pori. I have to say that the floor feels very nice. Every dude should come to Finland and test the floor.

[LarsCW]

Really nice looking floor. This sounds like something cool to do when someone wins the lottery:D

Now how do I convince my fiancee that I have to goto do kendo in cold finland while she wanna goto Jamaica:D:confused:

[nebosuke]

There is something poetic about your floor being finished just as the Noma floor is about to be dismantled.

Great looking facility, you guys have much to be proud of.

[Zed]

At the moment his research is on in finnish, but we are about to translate it to japanese and maybe to english too if there is interest.

He had some great stories about the floors in japan, and the rare opportunity to go underneath the floors in some very old dojos. In most of the places even the sensei who practise there don't know what is under the floorboards.[/QUOTE]

Our club is also looking at constructing a new dojo floor and we would be very interested to view the plans and method of construction that you have utilized.

Please email me @..... z.oz@rocketmail.com

Thanks
Zed