New jodan video

[Genya]

I found this clip once from these forums and I haven´t seen it on youtube so I decided to add it there.
I hope you all enjoy it!

[Halcyon]

I found this clip once from these forums and I haven´t seen it on youtube so I decided to add it there.
I hope you all enjoy it!
Dude! Where's the link?

[Genya]

Oops.. :) What was I thinking..? Probably nothing.. Anyway, here´s the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upi1UMFjKUE

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

pretty cool video, it looks like korea v/s brasil maybe? I wonder what year was that.

[JoonShik]

;276617']pretty cool video, it looks like korea v/s brasil maybe? I wonder what year was that.
it was 88 in Seoul. You're right, it was Korea vs. Brazil in the semi-finals

[a.hong]

Have there been other Korean jodan users in the WKC since then?

[nikozamo]

i dont know but if you searc in youtube there is a korean nito player too...

[Legionario]

That's Korea team's captain Chang.
Here (http://222.122.15.175/class/7wkc 00004.asf) the team's final with the famous and much debated second tsuki that granted victory to the japanese team.

I'm too curious about koreans who fight in jōdan no kamae. Not too many, as far as I know...

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

I was talking with a friend about this today and he said that korea had 2 or 3 very good jodan players, sadly I don´t know their names.

[ravenouswolf]

That's Korea team's captain Chang.
Here (http://222.122.15.175/class/7wkc%2000004.asf) the team's final with the famous and much debated second tsuki that granted victory to the japanese team.

I havent been in kendo long enough to have heard of the 'famous and much debated' second tsuki, but it intruiged me enough to try get a screenshot. Its a pity the picture quality is so poor, makes it hard to tell where the tsuki shinai is landing, and whether it lands before, simultaneously, or after the men.

354

For interest, what aspect of the second tsuki made it so controversial?

I almost got my first tsuki last night, landed perfectly, though it wasnt deliberate and more like keeping-the-centre and slightly raising my shinai as I was attacked. It probably surprised me as much as it did my aite (a good friend)! I dont trust my skill enough yet to try a deliberate tsuki in the heat of jigeiko.

[ahmed61086]

That's Korea team's captain Chang.
Here (http://222.122.15.175/class/7wkc 00004.asf) the team's final with the famous and much debated second tsuki that granted victory to the japanese team.

I'm too curious about koreans who fight in jōdan no kamae. Not too many, as far as I know...

I can see why it was highly debated.

[ravenouswolf]

I can see why it was highly debated.

Wish I could - it would mean I was a better kendoka!

[JSchmidt]

That's Korea team's captain Chang.
Here (http://222.122.15.175/class/7wkc%2000004.asf) the team's final with the famous and much debated second tsuki that granted victory to the japanese team.

I'm too curious about koreans who fight in jōdan no kamae. Not too many, as far as I know...

Wow..what a crappy behaviour.

Unfortunately, I only got to practice once when I was in Korea, but they seemed completed flustered by my jodan, so I suspect that it's not that common there.

[ravenouswolf]

Wow..what a crappy behaviour.

Oh come on pleeeeese, now Im really really curious. What was wrong with it? I just havent got enough experience to tell.

Somebody, oh somebody, please spill the beans!

[Legionario]

Oh come on pleeeeese, now Im really really curious. What was wrong with it? I just havent got enough experience to tell.
Somebody, oh somebody, please spill the beans!
There are two things coming out of this clip that must be pointed out:

- the second ippon, which one hit first? Was the shinpan decision correct?

- the behaviour of the korean kenshi after the shinpan awarded the second ippon to the japanese kenshi.

That's it. :)

[Paburo]

Oh come on pleeeeese, now Im really really curious. What was wrong with it? I just havent got enough experience to tell.

Somebody, oh somebody, please spill the beans!

you really don't see it?

from the looks of it it was a nice katate men and a rather dodgy katate tsuki (almost) simultaneous. why did they favour the tsuki for the men? we can't really judge though because:

1-we were not there
2-the video quality is bollocks

but we can see why it was controversial....

OTOH, even though i don't think the korean dudes reaction was all thaaaaaaat offensive(it was rather funny, lol), it's still frowned upon by the kendo 'reigi' ettiquete. if youre not content with the ippon that has just been awarded you have to stfu, go to your line directly and go for nihonme (or bow out in this case).

[ravenouswolf]

There are two things coming out of this clip that must be pointed out:

- the second ippon, which one hit first? Was the shinpan decision correct?

- the behaviour of the korean kenshi after the shinpan awarded the second ippon to the japanese kenshi.

That's it. :)

Aha I see, thanks Legionario. I was wondering about the timing and its certainly unclear on the video to my eyes. I presume it would be clearer in person, on the floor. But I had not noticed the Korean kenshi wandering off and delaying sonkyo after the point. Thanks for pointing it out.

Is the upward angle of the tsuki an issue? In all of two kihon practices of tsuki we were shown to keep it closer to horizontal, as too much upward angle risks getting inside the men, and tends to lift people off the ground rather than just stopping them in their tracks in any case.

[ravenouswolf]

you really don't see it?

Meh. Call me stupid ;) :D

[ahmed61086]

Aha I see, thanks Legionario. I was wondering about the timing and its certainly unclear on the video to my eyes. I presume it would be clearer in person, on the floor. But I had not noticed the Korean kenshi wandering off and delaying sonkyo after the point. Thanks for pointing it out.

Is the upward angle of the tsuki an issue? In all of two kihon practices of tsuki we were shown to keep it closer to horizontal, as too much upward angle risks getting inside the men, and tends to lift people off the ground rather than just stopping them in their tracks in any case.

Im not one to judge realy, but If I were to say why it was debatable it would be for a few reasons. But also, the style of kendo is a little different than now, so that could be a factor.

1. Both tsukis didn't seem to have taken the Korean player while he was off his guard.

2. Both katate tsukis looked kinda weak, like just a little tap using the left arm, but no body.

3. The second katate tsuki, like the first, didnt' seem to take the other player at an oportune time, and the second time it seems that the Jodan player got in a nice men, at the same time as the tsuki. So why would they choose a weak, not greatly timed tsuki, over a nice men?

4.I think about having the tsuki horizontal is sometimes an after effect of the "push" an fumikomi used in the tsuki. Since he realy didn't move foward with the tsuki, or push much, his shinia and arm didn't do that.

I realy dont know, but it looked like a lack of commitment to the tsuki and belief in it as well.

I personally thought the last tsuki was very suspect, and that the first was iffy. But im not saying Im right, and I know that the video quality sucks.

[ahmed61086]

Actually, I take back my statement about the first tsuki after watching the video again. The first tsuki looks good to me. I also take back the "body" and fumikomi statment as well.

Oops!

[tango]

Im not one to judge realy, but If I were to say why it was debatable it would be for a few reasons. But also, the style of kendo is a little different than now, so that could be a factor.

1. Both tsukis didn't seem to have taken the Korean player while he was off his guard.

2. Both katate tsukis looked kinda weak, like just a little tap using the left arm, but no body.

3. The second katate tsuki, like the first, didnt' seem to take the other player at an oportune time, and the second time it seems that the Jodan player got in a nice men, at the same time as the tsuki. So why would they choose a weak, not greatly timed tsuki, over a nice men?

4.I think about having the tsuki horizontal is sometimes an after effect of the "push" an fumikomi used in the tsuki. Since he realy didn't move foward with the tsuki, or push much, his shinia and arm didn't do that.

I realy dont know, but it looked like a lack of commitment to the tsuki and belief in it as well.

I personally thought the last tsuki was very suspect, and that the first was iffy. But im not saying Im right, and I know that the video quality sucks.

Notwithstanding all your other points, I have been looking at it again and again and again.. it's really hard to tell 100% with the poor video quality, but to me at least, it looks like the tsuki landed first.

Again, not wanting to debate any other issues about opportunity or weak tsuki v strong men or commitment, (or even zanshin for that matter)... only that it looks as if the tsuki landed slightly first.

Then again, I need lots more shimpan practice, so I probably shouldn't even be commenting here...

[ahmed61086]

Notwithstanding all your other points, I have been looking at it again and again and again.. it's really hard to tell 100% with the poor video quality, but to me at least, it looks like the tsuki landed first.

Again, not wanting to debate any other issues about opportunity or weak tsuki v strong men or commitment, (or even zanshin for that matter)... only that it looks as if the tsuki landed slightly first.

Then again, I need lots more shimpan practice, so I probably shouldn't even be commenting here...

Yes, it does seem like it landed with the men strike literally an inch away. I think then it is just up to the personal preference or even bias of the shimpans.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

I think that what makes both tsukis to look very suspicious is the "weird zanshin" that the Japanese player displays, in the second one, it´s emphasized by the strong and clear men that the korean player strikes, hard to tell without knowing how was kendo those days and not being there...

[xvikingx]

- the second ippon, which one hit first? Was the shinpan decision correct?

The quality is terrible so I can't see and detail but I liked it. He was in there, caught him off guard, and stunned him (even before the call).

[ahmed61086]

The quality is terrible so I can't see and detail but I liked it. He was in there, caught him off guard, and stunned him (even before the call).

The second ippon? Caught him off guard? Im not being sarcastic by the way.

How do you catch someone off guard wen they attack you similtaniously. The tsuki is an attack which takes a shorter amount of time, due to its linear motion, compared to the katate men. Now if they hit at the same time. It would seem that atleast they started their attack at the same time, or the men strike started earlier.

[xvikingx]

You've never gone for men and got a cracking do in return? Suriage-men? Dekote? Everything you went for landed according to plan? You have never been caught off guard when going for something?
Didn't think so....

[ahmed61086]

You've never gone for men and got a cracking do in return? Suriage-men? Dekote? Everything you went for landed according to plan? You have never been caught off guard when going for something?
Didn't think so....

Yeh, but with all those techniques you are talking about, you are hitting air(usually), or getting redirected somehow, I think they are all oji-waza. I do know what you are saying though, and agree with you about all those techniques. But this is more like an "ai" attack. Then its not realy about getting caught off guard, but your opponent being on guard and attacking at the same time.

Its just funny, because I see certain situations such as this, but with different techniques going the opposite way then what we saw in the video. For example, you'll see someone go for do(maybe gyaku) hit very nicely, then a split second later his opponent goes for men, and the shimpan give the men, as if Men is a superior attack. This is just one example, I see it a lot when it comes to a doh against a men.

[Legionario]

In my humble opinion the tsuki hit a fraction of second earlier, but the quality is too bad to have any certainty.
I know a person who can borrow me a VHS of that final, next time I see him I'll ask for sure.

[The great I AM]

I don't think its an issue of should the men have scored instead of the tsuki, leginario (it shouldn't), especially because the tsuki did land first. Chang's men was good but the tsuki was there too, and first, and I think thats the thing that the refs saw (amongst other things....) but I'm not sure if I agree that its ippon, especially as Nishikawa all but stops the moment it hits. That having been said, I don't think the jodan guy really had a chance, and it does look like the level between the two is significantly different enough to have produced the same result had the second tsuki-ippon not been awarded anyway. I was taught that in this situation in order for the men to score at all the tsuki needs to be "killed" and thats clearly not what happened, which may be another reason why the tsuki got scored. And in any ai-uchi situation its unreasonable to give an ippon to the side that strikes second just because it might look better.

The japanese guy is Nishikawa sensei from Keishichou, whose tsuki is relatively famous, and not too shabby at all....

And the korean guys reaction is quite poo, but in situations like that it can be hard to contain your emotions, especially your utter dissapointment at what you totally (and maybe reasonably?) don't think is the ippon that defeats your team in the final of the world champs. Watch the guys sitting down at the sides in the WKC, japanese included, and you see plenty of emotion coming out. I saw a reaction like that at the All Japan Taikai when I went a few years back. Happens everywhere!

[tgsfg]

To me, it looks like men. Not because of timing, but because it looks like the tsuki is knocked down by Chang's right hand. That's probably because of the video quality.

I also agree with Gibbo. Even if the men was awarded, I think Nishikawa would've won anyways.

[JSchmidt]

To me, it looks like men. Not because of timing, but because it looks like the tsuki is knocked down by Chang's right hand. That's probably because of the video quality.

That tsuki is in there and well before the men. Hold your hand over Chang, so that it just covers him and it's quite easy to see.

[tgsfg]

That tsuki is in there and well before the men. Hold your hand over Chang, so that it just covers him and it's quite easy to see.
I agree that tsuki is in, but it's just not as easy for me to see it.

[The great I AM]

Tgsfg

Like Jakob says the tsuki is in before the men, and Chang doesn't kill it, if you look carefully enough there is a brief (very brief!) moment where he jerks slightly from the impact.

[tgsfg]

Tgsfg

Like Jakob says the tsuki is in before the men, and Chang doesn't kill it, if you look carefully enough there is a brief (very brief!) moment where he jerks slightly from the impact.

I'm not arguing; I agree with you guys, but the video quality + my inexperience made it seem that way. I went back and watched the video several times, and I can see that now. It's much easier to see since I'm looking for it though.

[Nanbanjin]

The guy in white is dominated for the whole match. He very nearly had a tsuki scored against him arount the 35 second point. He also very nearly had a hiki-men scored against him just before the first tsuki that was scored.
The difference with the second tsuki that was scored is the jodan player doesn't break his posture. The problem for him was that the tsuki was faster and was on target.

For the non-scored tsuki and the first scored tsuki he reacts a little too long after the attack has been made. The non-scored tsuki didn't score because of bad timing from the chudan player rather than good reaction from the jodan player (i.e. there wan't much target to go for).
The hiki-men is handled by holding his shinai on the opponent's body. He doesn't know what the chudan player is going to do - so he just tries his best to kill whatever might be coming.

For the final tsuki he decided to keep his posture whether he was going to get tsukid or not. This allows him to make a good looking katate men after the tsuki has been scored. One of the reasons why the men looks good is because the tsuki is out of the way before the men is attempted.
The thing that really stands out is that the katate men by the jodan player is the only effective looking technique he deos in the whole bout and even so it was a reactive technique.

Jodan is supposed to be an aggressive kamae but the jodan allows the chudan player to dictate the flow of the match even though he's smaller and in chudan.

[Bomba]

Brilliant video. It is very close. I had to watch it a few times, but I think the call was right. Who would have wanted to be the shinpan there!