war on terror?

[Inner_Silence]

WAR ON TERROR??

this site is in spanish but still. im very sorry if it hurts suceptibilities (spelling??) but i have to show you this

DISCLAIMER:
hard images, explicit war pictures. if you are sensitive to this stuff, please dont look at this.
wounded marines and the cover-up of media (http://www.voltairenet.org/article136827.html)
genocide on iraq civilian (including kids) (http://www.voltairenet.org/article136851.html)

bonus track:
picture of bush made with portraits of deceased soldiers (http://www.whywehatebush.com/news/images/bush-large.jpg)


i hope you understand that my intention is not to show blood. is to give you an evidence that WAR IS WRONG, and what you see in CNN isnt the whole truth.

PLEASE DONT SUPPORT WAR, personally i dont have a side, i just want it to stop.

[Dave_petrucci]

Wait... War is wrong?

All this time I've been thinking our troops are over there hugging the Iraqis, you have opened my eyes sensei...

[KO1598]

Ok first don't say war is wrong, if war was wrong then those soldiers wouldn't have signed up for the military, war should be the last alternative, and i do believe that more peaceful solutions could've been found for Iraq, but if war is so wrong then explain why those soldiers signed up, oh yes some signed up for citizenship and other benefits but a lot signed up because they wanted to be in the military. I dislike is when people say war should neve happen. Because frankly everyone american benefits from war, because the US kicked the indians off of their land and invaded mexico we now have the entire west coast. because we dropped the nucleur bomb hundereds of thousands of US troops didnt have to die invading japan. the first settlers in america drove the Indians off from their land and lied to them. morally it was wrong but it had long term benefits for the american people. war should never happen without a very very good reason. i dont think invading iraq will have long term benefits but only time can tell. i mean the iraqi government is already flaunting their power saying they dont need america and can find "friends" elsewhere. i think the iraqi politicians are full of b.s. they are such arrogant S.O.B.

[Inner_Silence]

personally, i cant pick a side, i only think that people shouldnt be fighting for oil or money, in fact, i think people shouldnt be fighting at all.

i agree with you in what you say, it is obvious that war can (not necesarilly) bring benefits, but thats easy to say when you dont have a 11 year old girl covered with blood dying in your arms with a missing leg...
what profit will come to her???
do you think that is there an amount of money that can pay for the damage?
how much money does a the human life cost? how much liters of oil does a life of a soldier cost?

I really agree with you, but i have to add that there some things cannot be buyed with "profits" like love, like pain...

sadly the "no war" policy is just an utopia, but wounded or dead people (doesnt matter wich side they are) are just number to us, but ask a blind man if he is a number. ask a father if his dead 10 yo son is a number.

i think war is wrong, iven if it is profitable. you just cant profit human lives.

[KO1598]

I'm mearly saying it from an American point of view, all of americas wars make it so that an american girl isnt covered in blood. theres no profit for both sides ina war, only one side can win and profit. if i was an iraqi i would prob hate the U.S. Americas slogan is "freedom for the people", what should be added is "at any cost"

[Owen]

your damn right war is wrong. if even one person dies, they will be missed by someone. and people dont sign up for the military to kill people. the majority of them sign up to end the conflict rather than prolong it. how many people have died in this war for "peace in iraq" (oil) that shouldnt have? way too many. i condone violence to the extent of martial arts, but thats as far as im willing to go.

[neko kenshi]

Something that's troublesome:

I have no desire to kill an Iraqi person, nor have them killed. I'd bet most Iraqi people wouldn't want me killed. So why do we go to war? Because we have people in power willing to kill other people. Why do we need people in power who are willing to do that? Because they need to be able to protect us from other leaders willing to kill other people. So basically, because some stupid people are in power in some places, everyone has to have stupid people in power. Because one country has a military, everyone needs one. There's no good way to fix it (short of a world dictatorship), but it's still silly. Sure, killing is natural. Killing a stranger for no reason other than you two were told to kill each other? That's unnatural. We've built this whole system which requires us to kill each other senselessly. Stupid. No real way to fix it, but stupid.

I'm rambling pointlessly again.

[Owen]

i think your making alot of sense actually

[ahmed61086]

America wants to spread democracy by force, not very democratic, is it?

[Owen]

nope. america has been going downhill since the beginning. since waaaay back in the 1400s when it was "discovered" by europe.

[kartoffelngeist]

Ok first don't say war is wrong, if war was wrong then those soldiers wouldn't have signed up for the military, war should be the last alternative, and i do believe that more peaceful solutions could've been found for Iraq, but if war is so wrong then explain why those soldiers signed up, oh yes some signed up for citizenship and other benefits but a lot signed up because they wanted to be in the military. I dislike is when people say war should neve happen. Because frankly everyone american benefits from war, because the US kicked the indians off of their land and invaded mexico we now have the entire west coast. because we dropped the nucleur bomb hundereds of thousands of US troops didnt have to die invading japan. the first settlers in america drove the Indians off from their land and lied to them. morally it was wrong but it had long term benefits for the american people. war should never happen without a very very good reason. i dont think invading iraq will have long term benefits but only time can tell. i mean the iraqi government is already flaunting their power saying they dont need america and can find "friends" elsewhere. i think the iraqi politicians are full of b.s. they are such arrogant S.O.B.

So if I understand your logic, war is good because it benefits the American economy.

That's what you said. If it's not what you meant, you need to work on your expression. If it is what you meant, then you're a twat, to put it gently.

[KO1598]

war is not good, but war has kept america safe, does anyone want to argue? i mean the only time foreign troops have even touched american was when pearl harbor was attacked, and the japanese were in planes. does anyone want to argue that america has not benefited from wars, there is not even the slightest hint that we're even in a war except some high gas prices. would any of you americans rather we not fight wars and have a worse lifestyle, why do you think all the immigrants come to america, because of the economy, why is the economy good because we take action when we need rescources, call me a twat but to say war should never happen is ignorant, war is the foundation of civilization unfortunately. the greeks, romans, chinese, all had great emprires because they conquered land and made themselves rich, no one gets rich by trying to convince the nearby village to join them. and last but not least america is a great nation because we kicked the indians, british, french, and mexicans out. war is not good, it should be a last resort, but not one american should try to say that they have not benefited from the spoils of it. to do say would make you a hyprocrite. so unless you plan on moving to canada, please dont give that typical anti war question like " so if i understand you you're saying......" in that tone.

[JoDuncan]

Kindly crawl back under whatever bridge you came from.

[Spendius]

I think the last guy who said how great it would be to be nice to people for a change got nailed to a tree.

[JSchmidt]

I think the last guy who said how great it would be to be nice to people for a change got nailed to a tree.

Douglas Adams, eh?

[Makigai]

Kindly crawl back under whatever bridge you came from.

Quickly please.

[Spendius]

Douglas Adams, eh?

Yeah, he was so hip he could hardly see his pelvis :)

[Fudo-Shin]

war is not good, but war has kept america safe, does anyone want to argue? i mean the only time foreign troops have even touched american was when pearl harbor was attacked, and the japanese were in planes. does anyone want to argue that america has not benefited from wars, there is not even the slightest hint that we're even in a war except some high gas prices. would any of you americans rather we not fight wars and have a worse lifestyle, why do you think all the immigrants come to america, because of the economy, why is the economy good because we take action when we need rescources, call me a twat but to say war should never happen is ignorant, war is the foundation of civilization unfortunately. the greeks, romans, chinese, all had great emprires because they conquered land and made themselves rich, no one gets rich by trying to convince the nearby village to join them. and last but not least america is a great nation because we kicked the indians, british, french, and mexicans out. war is not good, it should be a last resort, but not one american should try to say that they have not benefited from the spoils of it. to do say would make you a hyprocrite. so unless you plan on moving to canada, please dont give that typical anti war question like " so if i understand you you're saying......" in that tone.Your ignorance astounds me...I don't think you are a suitable spokeperson for your Country! Remember you are on an International Forum here and you may be better off keeping some of your ideals to yourself and not speak on behalf of Americans.

This thread can go nowhere but down without solving a thing. If I were a Mod, I'd have a threadlock on the ready.

[bolson]

War is rape. Iraq was weak and it got raped by a gang of fascists. A rapist is a rapist. There is no excuse or justification. Can you say it's ok to rape a bunch of women cause it is you biological imperative to reproduce and since you are strong; well, let nature take it's course?

Check out the real news:

http://informationclearinghouse.info/

[dukboy123]

KO1598, Whoa, whoa, whoa, there pony boy. While I was cringing at a lot of your comments, you had one or two good points so I kept reading. But then you said this....


and last but not least america is a great nation because we kicked the indians, british, french, and mexicans out. war is not good, it should be a last resort, but not one american should try to say that they have not benefited from the spoils of it.

You should think very, very, carefully about what you just wrote. America is not a great country because we "kicked the ...out". That is an outlandish, misconceived, and ignorant thing to say. On several counts.

First, we didn't "kick" anybody out. We have millions and millions of citizens that are of different ethnicities who are contributing, valuable members of our society. I myself am of mixed ethnicity so I don't know who you refer to when you say "we". We as in white people? We as in Americans? We as in Americans in the military? Well, I'm not white but I am an American and I served in the military. I know that I didn't kick anybody out of our country and I know that my father, a mexican-american, didn't kick anybody out of our country. Yes, we (referring to our American forefathers) committed many horrible acts to be where we are today. That's not to say that we (any American with a conscience) should be proud of the wars that we have waged.

Secondly, you insinuate that America is great BECAUSE those ethnicities are absent from our culture. What an asinine and completely ignorant thing to say. hmmmm....when was the last time you enjoyed a pizza, a taco, heck, played your video game? All those things were brought here from a different culture. Wow, and since you're on this forum, I assume you practice an Asian martial art. Do you think America would be great if we kicked the Asians out? My mother is Japanese, my father is Mexican-American with a touch of Apache. If that's what you're saying...boy, you're in a bunch of hot water with me.

I think what you're probably trying to say is that we prevailed in wars with each of those people and because of that, America is where it is today. True enough, but that is not why we are great. More on that later.

And people don't just come here "for the economy". Sure, it's a big reason. More opportunities, a better lifestyle. But if you talk to any number of newly inaugurated American Citizens, you'll find a lot of them don't even speak of money. They speak of the freedom to do what they want, worship as they please, speak their political mind (without getting killed), and other esoteric reasons other than 'for the economy".

And lastly, never tell anybody who says "war is wrong" that their viewpoint isn't valid. War IS wrong. Nobody wants to go to war less than a professional soldier. We follow orders and do our duty to protect our nation. Not to improve our economy. We fight for our fellow soldier, not for cheaper gas. And you're right, we fight so that no American girl is pictured in the newspaper with missing limbs, crying over the dead body of her father.

Let me ask you something...did you not look at the pictures in the link that started this all? Did you not feel something in your heart? If so, how can you stand there crowing about how America is great because we "kicked" other peoples out? Can you not envision all those poor Native Americans our forefathers slaughtered? Can you not envision all those poor kids who became orphans when we dropped the atomic bomb? Can you not envision the sobbing of the Mexican wifes when they found out their husbands were not returning from the Mexican-American war?

What's wrong with you? Don't brag about any wars that this country fought. It's despicable.

I'm proud of my country. I'm proud of the lessons we've learned. I'm proud of what we're trying to do in the world. I believe we are good-hearted people trying to improve the world in any way we can. That's why we are great. Not because we kicked some people out.

[JCM]

Hi Dukboy, very nice post, just a comment on the last paragraph:


...[snip] I'm proud of the lessons we've learned. I'm proud of what we're trying to do in the world. I believe we are good-hearted people trying to improve the world in any way we can.

I have come to realize that while most of you guys genuinely feel this way, your leadership does not (left or right wing), I don't think they have any intentions for the world to profit, but America's at any cost (that cost perhaps including their own armed forces).

A second point, you cannot walk into your neighbour's kitchen unanounced and say "That is not how you fry an egg, give me that pan" you may have the best intentions, but your neighbour may not feel the same way.

Other than that I thouroughly enjoyed reading your post, a lot of points well made on it.

[dukboy123]

Hi Dukboy, very nice post, just a comment on the last paragraph: .

Thanks.


I have come to realize that while most of you guys genuinely feel this way, your leadership does not (left or right wing), .

Well, I may be naive, (I'd rather think I'm optimistic) but I think our leaders, Republican or Democrat, have the best intentions for America, her allies, and for generally for people around the world. I don't think there are any American politicos who are genuinely evil, wringing their hands together, plotting the downfall of some country just so we can plunder it. No, I don't believe that.


I don't think they have any intentions for the world to profit, but America's at any cost (that cost perhaps including their own armed forces)..

I'm sorry, I don't understand you here. Perhaps a typo here?


A second point, you cannot walk into your neighbour's kitchen unanounced and say "That is not how you fry an egg, give me that pan" you may have the best intentions, but your neighbour may not feel the same way..

Yes, I thoroughly realize that. We Americans are sometimes so sure that we must be right and so sure in our conviction that others want to be like us, that we often forget that point. Very well put indeed.


Other than that I thouroughly enjoyed reading your post, a lot of points well made on it

Thanks again.

[Paikea]

there is not even the slightest hint that we're even in a war except some high gas prices.Ignoring the impact on Iraq and coalition forces, have you not noticed the 3700+ dead US soldiers and 27,500+ wounded? Not to mention the hundreds of billions of dollars in additional national debt (most held by foriegn governments). Your arguments are shallow and ignorant.

[JCM]

I will think about how to rephrase that portion, my written english could be awkward at times :)

I have done a lot of work (and boozing) with folks from the US, and I do believe that the average guy has good intentions, but you just have to let nature take its course sometimes.

The United States had a war of independence after all and then a civil war. Wat would America be like if the internal conflict resolution had been prevented?, I think the answer is that it would be a very politically (and ethnically) unstable nation.

Just like ourselves every nation needs to reach maturity and make their own mistakes by themselves. As a kid I remeber doing things against my older brother's best advice, just for the sake of it, turns out he was right 99% of the time, but in the end I had to realise that by myself.

[Paikea]

war is not good, but war has kept america safe, does anyone want to argue? i mean the only time foreign troops have even touched american was when pearl harbor was attacked, and the japanese were in planes. does anyone want to argue that america has not benefited from wars, there is not even the slightest hint that we're even in a war except some high gas prices. would any of you americans rather we not fight wars and have a worse lifestyle, why do you think all the immigrants come to america, because of the economy, why is the economy good because we take action when we need rescources, call me a twat but to say war should never happen is ignorant, war is the foundation of civilization unfortunately. the greeks, romans, chinese, all had great emprires because they conquered land and made themselves rich, no one gets rich by trying to convince the nearby village to join them. and last but not least america is a great nation because we kicked the indians, british, french, and mexicans out. war is not good, it should be a last resort, but not one american should try to say that they have not benefited from the spoils of it. to do say would make you a hyprocrite. so unless you plan on moving to canada, please dont give that typical anti war question like " so if i understand you you're saying......" in that tone.Sorry to quote this entire can of garbage, but I do believe it is the single most ignorant and offensive post I have ever read on KW. "Plonk" goes without saying, but I believe KO1598 deserves a little negative rep as well.

[kartoffelngeist]

I'm not sure if it's even worth taking someone like this seriously. I think Jo called it right...

edit: oops, missed the whole second page...blame lack of sleep again. My point remains though...

[Hank]

i mean the only time foreign troops have even touched american was when pearl harbor was attacked, and the japanese were in planes. In 1814 the British marched on Washington and burned it to the ground. The only reason this didn't happen more often is because there's always an ocean between us and our enemies. Really, you have to know what you're talking about to effectively argue stuff on an international adult forum.

[Owen]

complete bullshit.
- rep and all that jazz.

[Inner_Silence]

War is rape. Iraq was weak and it got raped by a gang of fascists. A rapist is a rapist. There is no excuse or justification. Can you say it's ok to rape a bunch of women cause it is you biological imperative to reproduce and since you are strong; well, let nature take it's course?

Check out the real news:

http://informationclearinghouse.info/



shocking...



Well, I may be naive, (I'd rather think I'm optimistic) but I think our leaders, Republican or Democrat, have the best intentions for America, her allies, and for generally for people around the world.

no comments

[bobdonny]

Regarding Koi,

So he said something stupid and unfounded, maybe he got caught up in the moment. Im sure he learned his lesson, -reps + dragging it out dont help things, talk about the topic at hand.


Well, I may be naive, (I'd rather think I'm optimistic) but I think our leaders, Republican or Democrat, have the best intentions for America, her allies, and for generally for people around the world.

In Ireland a recently elected senator waived his annual salary as he determined he did not need it and thought it may be best spent elsewhere.... I cringe when i think of all that is spent in US election campaigning and advertising / marketing alone.

How can any leaders in the free world start off representing Working class individuals by spending millions trying to look better than their opponent? I think it misguided and indicitive of the entire american election process

[dukboy123]

Inner Silence, I appreciate your discretion. I know my viewpoint is not one shared by a lot of people. but.....


.....Check out the real news:

http://informationclearinghouse.info/

Aww, c'mon now. Those stories skew the picture so anti-U.S. it borders on propaganda. Yes, a very large portion of the casualties are Iraqi and a disproportionately small number are American. Does that mean a small amount of Americans are going around slaughering a large amount of Iraqis? No, of course it does not. It most emphatically does not.

The vast majority of the Iraqi casualties are a result of the fractious fighting of Iraqis against themselves...the Shites killing Sunnis, the Sunnis killing Shites, both killing Kurds. Car bombs, bike bombs, IEDs, mob-like executions, assasinations, they are killing each other in every way imaginable.

There was one picture in there with some guy with his boot in the back of another guy who had a look of pain and anguish. Coupled with the headline, the inference was that this was an American Marine oppressing some poor defenseless Iraqi. That most definitely was not a U.S. Marine. That wasnt' a Marine boot, Marine trousers, or a Marine firearm. I know U.S. military uniforms and that was not U.S. And that is just one small example of how people with anti-U.S. bias skew things to make us look like monsters.

The U.S. has spent BILLIONS and BILLIONS to rebuild Iraq, to rebuild their oil infrastructure, the power plants, their housing, their schools. Guess what, the Iraqis are blowing these things up themselves! We are trying to help that country. We can't do a good job because it is just too dangerous what with all the animosity towards the U.S.. Would you want to rebuild a school with someone shooting at you or planting a bomb along the way to your work? I can't even imagine what that country would be like today if they would just stop fighting amongst themselve and let us help them rebuild their country. Actually, I can. Look at Northern Iraq where all the Kurds are. It's beautiful. New schools, new infrastructure, no fighting, Americans can even walk the streets over there without getting killed. Why? Because the Kurds are not fighting amongst themselves (well, not killing each other anyway), they govern themselves, and they let us help them. Do some research, look it up. I challenge you. I don't think you will find very many Kurds who say they hate America.

Look, these are serious issues that have been argued about by people with much larger brains and much more responsibility than you or I. We will not solve anything in this forum. What we can do however, is read each other's post with an open mind, and maybe, just maybe, learn a little something about the other persons viewpoint.

All I know is that I wore armor for the first time last Tuesday and I loved it!!! Kendo is so cool!!!

[Sparv]

Small addition, my irrelevant two cents. Cui bono? ("Good for whom?").



The U.S. people have spent hundreds of BILLIONS and BILLIONS to help G. W. Bush to pay the Carlyle group and some others

[dukboy123]

>Small addition, my irrelevant two cents. Cui bono? ("Good for whom?").


Quote:
Originally Posted by dukboy123
The U.S. people have spent hundreds of BILLIONS and BILLIONS to help G. W. Bush to pay the Carlyle group and some others

Somebody quoted me and added their own comments to appear as if I said it. That is uncool. I did not say that last part "...to help G.W. Bush to pay the Carlyle group and some others..."

And whoever wrote that is a little shortsighted. Sure we paid a lot of money to a lot of contractors. So who were we supposed to give the money too? Any old Iraqi off the street? There have been audits and investigations done that show millions and millions and millions have been embezzled by Iraqi contractors, politicians, accountants, anybody who was in the paper trail.

Look, the U.S. is trying to get stuff done over there. We are hampered by the security situation, i.e. the near civil war that is going on over there. But we don't want to give up, we want to finish the job. We know that we pretty much destroyed that country when we invaded. We want to make it right. We can't because the Iraqis won't let us. And by that I mean, they kill us.

[JCM]

Look, the U.S. is trying to get stuff done over there. We are hampered by the security situation, i.e. the near civil war that is going on over there. But we don't want to give up, we want to finish the job. We know that we pretty much destroyed that country when we invaded. We want to make it right. We can't because the Iraqis won't let us. And by that I mean, they kill us.

Ok, let me put it this way:

Say America is a troubled country in 50 years time, Iraq invades America to impose some order, destroys half the country in the process and the intends to rebuild it using Iraqi contractors. As an American you won't be saying "Gee, thanks folks, that is nice of you". Try to put yourself in their eyes.

[Sparv]

>Small addition, my irrelevant two cents. Cui bono? ("Good for whom?").


Quote:
Originally Posted by dukboy123
The U.S. people have spent hundreds of BILLIONS and BILLIONS to help G. W. Bush to pay the Carlyle group and some others

Somebody quoted me and added their own comments to appear as if I said it. That is uncool. I did not say that last part "...to help G.W. Bush to pay the Carlyle group and some others..."

Sorry if it appeared "uncool". I think that all those who read this (and probably don't care at all) would have understand that I was not really quoting you. And I would like you to write "Sparv" or even "Sparv, you fucking arsehole" instead of "somebody". I've got a big Ego.
For the shortsighted part... I think that as long as the weapons dealers are so close to the power, Earth is not a safe place. The War on Terror is not only Irak: who's the next?

Something off-topic: JCM, I was in Barcelona a week ago. A very interresting city.

[dukboy123]

I am trying. And I understand your point perfectly. And those are good, valid points you're making. I don't have a complete grasp on the contracting situation over there but I have read a little bit on what the situation was about a year ago.

There were initiatives passed that mandated a certain level of Iraqi involvement as far as contracting companies are concerned. And it was kind of Catch-22 in that there weren't a lot of Iraqi companies prepared to take on the contracts for which they bid as they had suffered greatly during the invasion themselves. There were many efforts to hire Iraqi companies but like I mentioned earlier, there was a lot of money disappearing and not a lot of progress.

From my readings, the way it usually worked was this. The U.S. government awards a contract to build schools to a large firm, say Halliburton. Halliburton goes to Iraq and looks for an Iraqi subcontractor to do the work. Much time and money is spend looking for a capable company or, just workers. Work commences. Work halts as attacks make the work too dangerous. Iraqi subcontractor makes off with large amounts of money or....Iraqi subcontractor uses inferior products to cut costs and therefore pocket the difference...the project stalls, fails due to shoddy construction, lack of money or both.

Regardless, it wouldn't have mattered who we awarded the contracts to, we would have been castigated anyway. Even if we had awared all the contracts to Iraqi companies. We would have been accused of favoritism, of trying to curry favor with somebody, of political wrangling, of all kinds of mean and nasty things. And if we had done that and gotten even fewer results than we have now, OMG, we would hear no end of how mismanaged the rebuilding of Iraq turned out.

In an ideal world, yes, we would award all the contracts to Iraqi companies. The Iraqi comanies would be competent and staffed with honest, hard-working employees who can see the greater good of rebuilding their own country. They wouldn't get attacked during the construction and their end project wouldn't get sabotaged. That's never going to happen in modern day Iraq.

[JCM]

Something off-topic: JCM, I was in Barcelona a week ago. A very interresting city.

Cool, hope you enjoyed it? :)

[dukboy123]

Sorry if it appeared "uncool". I think that all those who read this (and probably don't care at all) would have understand that I was not really quoting you. And I would like you to write "Sparv" or even "Sparv, you fucking arsehole" instead of "somebody". I've got a big Ego.

Sparv, well, I'm relatively new to this forum and have just recently myself found out how this "Quote" function works. So I wasn't quite sure how that happened and I didn't want to disparage someone wrongly.

So ok, Sparv, it's wrong to put words in someone's mouth, or posts as it were.

[Sparv]

Dukboy, I was making some humour. I need to use more smilies (smileys?).

I was not speaking only about the contracts in Irak. The "war on terrror" helps the whole "Military-Industrial Complex" (I'm quoting Eisenhower). Stable Irak is not good for many of those who are making money there, and the way those companies can give money to the parties in the USA is called corruption here. Helping the Irakis is not the goal of the stakeholders, and I'm not sure it is the goal of the governement.


Cool, hope you enjoyed it? :)

Yes, oh yes. You know how it works: visiting monuments, getting lost, drinking, having sex, drinking again,visiting the Fuji Mae shop, heading back to home...

[Owen]

dukboy quit being an ass.

[Paikea]

dukboy quit being an ass.Owen, you are reflecting badly (again) on the people who have vouched for you.

So far, Dukboy has made a series of well thought out, cogent arguments to support his position, has not engaged in name-calling or other bad behavior and we should respect that.

You, on the other hand need to remember that you have not yet done anything significant in your life, and have no standing to judge others. Especially not the people who've worn the uniform and served their country (whatever country that may be), as I believe Dukboy has done.

I once mentioned that you need to think more, and babble less...

[Owen]

your right. sorry.

[neko kenshi]

Look, these are serious issues that have been argued about by people with much larger brains and much more responsibility than you or I. We will not solve anything in this forum. What we can do however, is read each other's post with an open mind, and maybe, just maybe, learn a little something about the other persons viewpoint.

And +rep for you because you understand that, when so many people seem to get into heated debates online and accomplish nothing at all.

[Gessho]

America wants to spread democracy by force, not very democratic, is it?

Worked in Germany and Japan after 1945 so I will have to disagree. The difference in Iraq is that the Bush administration botched the whole thing.

[Kendoka_Han]

WAR ON TERROR??

this site is in spanish but still. im very sorry if it hurts suceptibilities (spelling??) but i have to show you this

DISCLAIMER:
hard images, explicit war pictures. if you are sensitive to this stuff, please dont look at this.
wounded marines and the cover-up of media (http://www.voltairenet.org/article136827.html)
genocide on iraq civilian (including kids) (http://www.voltairenet.org/article136851.html)

bonus track:
picture of bush made with portraits of deceased soldiers (http://www.whywehatebush.com/news/images/bush-large.jpg)


i hope you understand that my intention is not to show blood. is to give you an evidence that WAR IS WRONG, and what you see in CNN isnt the whole truth.

PLEASE DONT SUPPORT WAR, personally i dont have a side, i just want it to stop.

Personally in my opinion, expect billions of people to die within the next few years.

The AntiChrist is slowly moving his plan forward to try and defeat Israel.

The wait for the rapture is closing in.

[Fudo-Shin]

Personally in my opinion, expect billions of people to die within the next few years.

The AntiChrist is slowly moving his plan forward to try and defeat Israel.

The wait for the rapture is closing in.Oh please!Why do all the freaks come out on these types of threads...oh hang on, I'm here. Well not for much longer...

[Kendoka_Han]

Look, these are serious issues that have been argued about by people with much larger brains and much more responsibility than you or I. We will not solve anything in this forum. What we can do however, is read each other's post with an open mind, and maybe, just maybe, learn a little something about the other persons viewpoint.

Good point.

Im not generally anti-US, but more anti-government or in a way, anti-antichrist.

I dislike the UN in many ways, and with many reasons, and I dislike the US president and his companions with the same reasons.

Since you seem to be a retired Air Force personal, surely you could see through the lies of the US government, and the UN. Surely you can see WHY their are wars? Whats the reason?

Why was their WW1 then WW2 and now the forthcoming very soon WW3?


All I know is that I wore armor for the first time last Tuesday and I loved it!!! Kendo is so cool!!!

AWESOME

I love kendo too. I also joined up, about 2 months ago.

[Kendoka_Han]

Oh please!Why do all the freaks come out on these types of threads...oh hang on, I'm here. Well not for much longer...

I am not a freak!, if I have such beliefs. Like I said, its my personal opinion since I understand the basis of such logic.

Illuminati is everywhere :mad:

[Owen]

I am not a freak!, if I have such beliefs. Like I said, its my personal opinion since I understand the basis of such logic.

Illuminati is everywhere :mad:

your not a freak, just a little over-religious.

[Kendoka_Han]

your not a freak, just a little over-religious.

Not really :)

I am 100% with / understanding / believing the bible and with God/Christ, thats about it. I still sin however, but I try not to at the same time.

A religion is a community, I am however a christian who doesn't call my "religion", a [religion]. I call it, a relationship.

[bullet08]

FUBAR.

pete

[Owen]

i actually had to use the U.D. for that one. + rep

[JCM]

Worked in Germany and Japan after 1945 so I will have to disagree. The difference in Iraq is that the Bush administration botched the whole thing.


Mmmh, I would not say it quite worked, specially given the country was split up.

To Neko's point, this is just a debate, some of us enjoy them, we know we are not solving the worlds problems but hey, is nice to have people from different backgorunds and viewpoints you can have a conversation with.

Dukboy, my point was not so much about awarding contracts but more so about the resentment the Irakis feel for having a foreign force in their land, I do understand a number of your points. I have worked with a few US army retirees and the common theme seems to be that they joined the armed forces to get an education which otherwise they would not have been able to benefit from and to do something extraordinary with their lifes, in terms of making a difference and helping people out, no one joined with the intention to go to foreign lands and kill and be killed. At the same time a lot of ex-US army guys have seen action and have experienced the ugliness of armed conflicts, so you guys have a different perspective on certain things that I sometimes disagree with, but then again, you had a different experience.

I think the right thing to do is help out without being physically over there, the US did it with Europe after WW2 and both continents have been benefiting from healthy trade agreements ever since, the americans were not hated, as they left very soon after the war. The same thing should be done with Muslim countries, helping them out when they require it, but not forcing their destiny.

Hope that made some sense

[Owen]

aww man you undrifted the thread...

[JCM]

aww man you undrifted the thread...

Is not everyday you get a chance to have a good debate going with people that can argue their points well and keep it clean, had to take advantage of it :)

[Owen]

i suppose we dont need to discuss kendoka hans overuse of his "relationship".

[vedenant]

I was not speaking only about the contracts in Irak. The "war on terrror" helps the whole "Military-Industrial Complex" (I'm quoting Eisenhower). Stable Irak is not good for many of those who are making money there, and the way those companies can give money to the parties in the USA is called corruption here. Helping the Irakis is not the goal of the stakeholders, and I'm not sure it is the goal of the governement.


Hoi Sparv! Are you absolutely sure that it is only The US "Military Industrial Complex" that fights wars for oil?

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/ttt3_oil

I believe that there is plenty of blame to go around, right?

So the real question is what do we do now?

Should the US troops withdraw from Iraq? Thats kind a like your interior dercorator quitting right after he's trashed your house and told you how bad your taste is....

Should they continue with the occupation, or let the sunnis the kurdish and the shites just slug it out and hope for the best?

What do you people think, is forced peace with all the resulting tension better one than peace that stems from someone winnig over everybody else?

Oh yes and one more thing: American troops have fought on the American soil against invaders during modern times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Aleutian_Islands

And it wasn't easy either.

Peace!

[bullet08]

Should they continue with the occupation, or let the sunnis the kurdish and the shites just slug it out and hope for the best?


best option is for people in iraq to learn to get along with each other which will not likely to happen.

next option is put someone in the head of that government who has balls large enough to start killing off people who will not SFSF, but then what has changed since saddam?

next option is to have arab nations keep the peace in that country by sending in arab force into it to replace US forces.. but that won't happen for large number of reasons.

next option is to.. leave the US force there for police action like we are doing now. and i think we are doing it, even if no one likes it very much.

oh.. we can just get the hell out of that place, but that will just create another vaccum of power and more killing and possible 'invasion' by 'friendly' people around the area.. which isn't much of a change, but at least that will kill off one or two of the ethnic groups in the country and will have some form of unity at least.. but do anyone really want to do that? i think that's called genocide and way other countries were acting when US went into iraq, i don't think anyone will try to stop it very much if it comes to that.

so.. it's SNAFU -> TARFU -> FUBAR -> BOHICA.

pete

[dukboy123]

hmmmm....well, lots of good discussion since I've been away...so,

Owen...disappointing, disappointing...

Paikea, Neko Kenshi, thanks for the kind words...

Gessho, yes, things do seem to have turn pear-shaped over there and no doubt there have been missteps along the way. But "botched things up..." ? I don't know. The Bush administration is trying the best they can, I trust that. Isn't that what we should all strive to do whether it's in Kendo or life? How in the world could President Bush or anybody for that matter, know that the Sunnis would bomb mosques in their own country? How could he have predicted that the Iraqis would have so little interest in rebuilding their country that they would blow up their own infrastructure? How could he have predicted that the U.S. offer of and delivery of billions and billions of dollars of aid be ridiculed, dismissed, and scorned at by millions of people around the world?

Kendoka Han, I gather from your previous posts that you are a young person. Please don't presume to know the intentions of a nation or its service members. Yes, I am a retired Air Force veteran. I served in the Intelligence field for my entire 22 years of service and continue to serve my country in that capacity to this day. I served in Desert Storm and sad to say, had a direct hand in many battles. When you say the "lies of the U.S. government", I bristle at that. That is a presumption at least and possibly blind prejudice, I don't know the extent of your knowledge.

From my experience, I can tell all of you and I'm sure most of you know this already, war is a very, very, complicated, intricate, amazingly interweaved process of analysis, decision-making, and action. Intelligence, in the form of finished reports, raw reports, images, etc. gets passed down, up, back down again, around and around and finally, someone has to make a decision based on what is thought to be known. It is NOT a definitive process. I have no idea how everybody got this idea that the word "intelligence", as it pertains to the military, means "absolute fact".

So President Bush, our military leaders, acted and are acting, on the best possible information that they were given. Some of this information was wrong but, Holy Cow people, where in history or anywhere else for that matter, does it say that miltary intelligence is infallible? We've won and lost wars on this concept.

JCM, I fully understand your points and appreciate your eloquence. Among the people I've served with, enlisting for the educational benefits rates pretty highly. Among my close friends who are military career oriented, it becomes quite a different proposition. Most, like myself, joined for the educational benefits. Then as we got more resonsibility, started training and mentoring young service members, started to become more aware of the "big picture", the reasons for staying became more abstract. Words like "patriotisim", "duty", and "country", began to become more prevalent in our minds if not our vocabulary. Momentous things were happening the world and we wanted to be a part if not contribute to it. The dissolution of the USSR, the falling of the Berlin Wall, and other events were incentive for us to continue our work. We all wanted to do greater good though I doubt any of us would mention it to each other. Indeed, I feel somewhat stupid and self-serving for mentioning it in this forum.

Nevertheless, I feel a deep belief that the U.S. is trying to improve situations around the world in good faith and we are being excorciated for it. No other county in the world spreads aid, in the form of money, personnel, supplies, etc. more than the U.S. There is no disputing that statement. And that is something that all Americans can be proud of and that is one of the prime reasons why I believe we are a great nation.

Ok, off my soapbox, my apologies if I went overboard.

[JCM]

...Nevertheless, I feel a deep belief that the U.S. is trying to improve situations around the world in good faith and we are being excorciated for it. No other county in the world spreads aid, in the form of money, personnel, supplies, etc. more than the U.S. There is no disputing that statement...

I have to admit, I have never looked at it from that perspective, and btw, is good to hear your perspective as a soldier, you obviously have solid knowledge and information on what your are talking about.

I will give you that the situation is not easy in the least, can the US troops just retreat and leave Irak?, the answer is probably not, as they now have a responsibility to stabilize the situation before they leave. Ideally a muslim league force supported by US resources would be the best compromise, but we all know that is not likely to happen in the near future. It is a bit of a catch 22 situation.

The US and other European countries got it very right in WW2 and it was a great example of co-operation of nations towards the greater good. Is interesting how the world seems to unlearn history.

So what is your take on how the situation can be resolved?

[Kenzan]

I am not a freak!, if I have such beliefs. Like I said, its my personal opinion since I understand the basis of such logic.

Illuminati is everywhere :mad:

Speaking of Hoaxes....
For your viewing pleasure, the top 10 greatest Hoaxes of all time (http://www.2spare.com/item_52492.aspx).
:smoker:

[dukboy123]

JCM, well, I'm afraid that the answer is not a good one. It's actually one of the tenets of Sun Tzu's "Art of War".

I will preface what I'm about to say with.... that it is a horrible, horrible, thing but a cold, hard, fact of warfare and people in general. I don't wish it were true and I hope no nation ever has to do it again. So, here goes....

Sun Tzu said and I paraphrase here greatly, that to conquer and occupy a nation, you have to beat them so badly, demoralize them, give them no hope and no capability WHATSOEVER to retaliate.

That is basically what we did with Japan when we dropped the atomic bomb and basically what we did with Germany when we bombed their industrial complex and tragically, their general populace.

The problem here is twofold. One, we don't want to conquer and "occupy" Iraq. The word "occupy" has all kinds of connotations which the U.S. wants none of. Anwway, since that is so, we can't just go and decimate the country and its people. We can't and we don't want to. Which leads to the second problem. Since we can't do that and don't want to do that, that leaves thousands if not millions in that country that are able to resist (for whatever reason) our forces, even if we only want to do good.

So yes, the U.S. and Europe did well after WWII and the Marshal Plan worked beautifully. Unfortunately, Iraq and the Middle East are an entirely different prospect. Throw in the deep-seated suspicion (even hatred) of the West that is inherent in the extremist Muslim experience with the dyanmics of a majority population (Shites) being dominated by a minority (Sunni) run by a despot (Saddam) and something like the Marshall Plan would have a hard time working even in the best of those circumstances. Then you have other influences like the U.S.'s need to defend herself agains terrorrists (who are most assuredly swarming into Iraq for the chance to kill an American soldier) and Iran funding all kinds of nefarious deeds, and well, it's almost an impossible situation.

Frankly, I don't know what the solution is. I do know this though, we (the U.S. military) are woefully undermanned over there and even the current U.S. military leaders over there can't seem to grasp this. Before the invasion of Iraq, the then Armed Forces Chief of Staff, Gen Shineseki (sp?) was asked how many troops would be needed to stabilize Iraq after Saddam had been toppled. Gen. Shineseki answered something like 450,000 - 500,000 troops. Congress didn't want to hear that (imagine the expense, the logistics!!), the good General was fired, and now we have anywhere from 130,000 - 150,000 guys over there at any one time. I read an analysis (forget the author and report, God I'm getting old...) abou this and it summed it up like this. After we had defeated the Japanese in WWII, we had something like one American soldier stationed there for every 70 Japanese persons. In Iraq now, we have one American soldier there for every 15,000 Iraqis!! Actually, I forget the actual number of Iraqis but it was in the tens of thousands.

How in the world can you expect to contain such a volatile situation like Iraq when you're only 20% manned? History tells us it is not possible.

Too many factors, too many mistakes, too many crazy people. My mind reels....

[Kenzan]

That is basically what we did with Japan when we dropped the atomic bomb and basically what we did with Germany when we bombed their industrial complex and tragically, their general populace.


Who exactly is this "We?"
I wasn't even born then.


Seems like the "We" of then was the same "We" of now;


A bunch of rich-and-fat-crusty-old out-of-touch-shielded-from-the-realities-of-the-world-religious-and-self-righteous pedantic-and-brainless-white-dudes.

:alien:

[dukboy123]

Who exactly is this "We?"
I wasn't even born then.


Seems like the "We" of then was the same "We" of now;


A bunch of rich-and-fat-crusty-old out-of-touch-shielded-from-the-realities-of-the-world-religious-and-self-righteous pedantic-and-brainless-white-dudes.

:alien:

hahaha...yeah, basically. But I mean "we" as in The United States of America.

And Kenzan, think about how conflicted I feel about all that... my home country, which I love, probably killed some of my relatives and I know, caused tremendous grief to my mother.

[JCM]

I am trying to think, but at the moment there is little for me to add, we don't completely agree on some things but I would still buy you a beer if I ever get to San Antonio. I think I might be doing a business trip in Austin at some point over the next few months (I really hope it happens, I've been told great things about downtown bars). San Antonio is about sixty miles south-west isn't it?

[Paikea]

How in the world can you expect to contain such a volatile situation like Iraq when you're only 20% manned? History tells us it is not possible.That is the fundamental error. After Vietnam, our country made a solemn promise to the military that we would never again put them into a position where they would not be allowed to win the conflict, and have that conflict micro-managed by number-crunching bureaucrats 10,000 miles away from the war.

Then our leadership decided to forget every lesson we learned then and screw them anyway to service a neo-conservative fantasy. There are a handful of folks that were and are currently on the JCS who deserve to be flogged for not speaking out against this from the start.

[bullet08]

two words. arab unity. that's what's needed. put all the religion and ethnic difference aside, stop blowing each other apart. sit down, shut up, and make all the damned rich few to give their oil money out to educate the mass. bring up the level of education high enough for them to start running their own country instead of having western folks coming into run their industry. give the mass hope for their future and furture of their children.

now.. only if i can figure out how to get this thing moving..

pete

[Paikea]

two words. arab unity. that's what's needed. put all the religion and ethnic difference aside, stop blowing each other apart. sit down, shut up, and make all the damned rich few to give their oil money out to educate the mass. bring up the level of education high enough for them to start running their own country instead of having western folks coming into run their industry. give the mass hope for their future and furture of their children.

now.. only if i can figure out how to get this thing moving..

peteI have a muslim friend who describes the process of developing Arab unity with a vulgar Arabic term roughly meaning "fu**ing for virginity". Seems apt.

[dukboy123]

I am trying to think, but at the moment there is little for me to add, we don't completely agree on some things but I would still buy you a beer if I ever get to San Antonio. I think I might be doing a business trip in Austin at some point over the next few months (I really hope it happens, I've been told great things about downtown bars). San Antonio is about sixty miles south-west isn't it?

San Antonio is about 90 miles south of Austin. I also haven't been to any Austins bars but I am itching to get to 6th Street and hear some Texas blues. Stevie Ray Vaughn and all that.

Try and make your business trip around the first week of October. There is a shiai at that time and my club is participating. :laugh:

[Big One]

If they can't stop killing each others for 700 years, what make you think we can do it in two years or ten years?

[JoDuncan]

Am I the only one thinking that a few more nukes could solve the problem?? :rolleyes:

[dukboy123]

Well, that would definitely erase their capability to resist now wouldn't it? But of course, I don't think I want to be putting radioactive gasoline into my car!! :eek:

[JCM]

SNAFU

Ahhh, is nice to see things getting back to KWF normality :D



Dukboy, Is a shame, but I somehow doubt is going to happen in October, to do with budgets. I am sure other opportunities will come up

[dukboy123]

Yes, it is a shame, it will be my first tournament. My sempais are volunteering me to fight even though I haven't worn a men yet! You could've seen me get schooled! hahaha....

[Obukan_dude]

One question I have about the war on terror is this: Is this a war that can be fought with a conventional army? Or are different(i.e., steathlier) tactics and methods needed?:confused::smoker:

[Paikea]

One question I have about the war on terror is this: Is this a war that can be fought with a conventional army? Or are different(i.e., steathlier) tactics and methods needed?:confused::smoker:You volunteering for the Night Ninjas, Nick?

[neko kenshi]

Good point.

Im not generally anti-US, but more anti-government or in a way, anti-antichrist.

I dislike the UN in many ways, and with many reasons, and I dislike the US president and his companions with the same reasons.

Since you seem to be a retired Air Force personal, surely you could see through the lies of the US government, and the UN. Surely you can see WHY their are wars? Whats the reason?

Why was their WW1 then WW2 and now the forthcoming very soon WW3?


Anti-Antichrist? Double negative... does that make you Christ? :confused: Huh, we're all doomed. :laugh: Just messing with you.

Tell me, why are there wars? (preferably without reference to religion, as the only way to effectively convey a point is to base it on a shared belief).

Why was there WW1? Well, lots of reasons. You could blame imperialism, you could alliances, you could blame it on the blank check, or even Austria-Hungary for reacting the way they did. You could even blame gunboat diplomacy. At any rate, many, many people smarter than either of us have written many different points on this and nothing is completely conclusive. I somehow doubt you have the answer without even having studied it in any depth (relative to the PhD's).

WW2? I'd blame Hitler, but even that has controversy.

WW3? Why do you figure it will happen?

[neko kenshi]

To agree with dukboy, I think the US leadership has every good intention. I just don't think they are doing so well with them. It's not like George Bush is in his office trying to figure out ways to be evil (not that I support Bush, but I do take into account the bias of the media and judge him only on facts, or try to at least).

On a side note: to JCM: I was actually quoting dukboy, it was his point, I just agree. As dukboy said, we can learn about eachother's perspectives and enjoy them, but we just need to keep in perspective what we're accomplishing.

Anywho, my standpoint at this point is that Saddam needed to go, but we invasion of Iraq may have been for the wrong reasons, and the whole thing was handled poorly; not that I could do better, but a lot should have been different.

[neko kenshi]

One question I have about the war on terror is this: Is this a war that can be fought with a conventional army? Or are different(i.e., steathlier) tactics and methods needed?:confused::smoker:

Here's a question: What is the War on Terror? There's no such thing as a terrorist country. Countries just act on their own behalf. Does attacking civilians make you a terrorist country? Well, we fire bombed Dresden (sp?) and Tokyo, not to mention the atomic bombs. Maybe sponsoring terrorists? England hired pirates to attack French or Spanish ships in past wars. I'm sure there have been plenty of Mercenaries hired in recent times. Plus, no doubt we've funded resistance movements. Anywho, a country acts on it's own behalf, a Terrorist just tries to incite fear for no gain.

I'm worried hunting "terrorists" will resemble hunting communists or witches. It seems that it's become a term we throw at anyone who's our enemy. A way to make the public turn against whoever the government wants. All too often I hear people justify Iraq with 9/11. What did Iraq have to do with that? Using 9/11 to justify invading a different country disgusts me, but that seems to be the connection the government tries to make with the word "terrorist".

Personally, I'd rather fight a war on genocide, or maybe a war on poverty, or a war on inequality, but those seem to take second place compared to revenge.

[h2o]

a Terrorist just tries to incite fear for no gain.
Of course they have something to gain. Otherwise I doubt they would do it. The "gain" might not be in form of material resources though.

[neko kenshi]

Good point, they're furthering their aims, but it's still (usually) different from how a country does it.

What I meant (specific to Iraq) was that although Saddam was a despot, he never attacked a different country with the sole purpose of creating fear, there was always a more traditional motivation which is historically shared by most attacking countries.

Note: I haven't actually researched the history of Saddam's attack, but I'm going off common logic. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Obukan_dude]

You volunteering for the Night Ninjas, Nick?
Heh. Tempting, but no.
Seriously, though:

Here's a question: What is the War on Terror? There's no such thing as a terrorist country. Countries just act on their own behalf. Does attacking civilians make you a terrorist country?,and other nice thoughts from Sam.
This is pretty much what I was thinking. It seems to me (please call me on this, someone, especially Dukboy) that the US military leadership, or at least the Commander-in-Chief, are used to fighting a war where we can see the enemies and have a tangible target to strike. But this is a guerilla war, a war of attrition, that is being fought now, and you don't really need a set home country to fight that kind of war (especially Iraq, where at least some of the opposition is coming from other Middle Eastern countries). Now, I don't know what the US Army's advancements have been in the area of guerrilla tactics and stealth warfare since the late 70's and 80's, but my opinion is that to at least fight, if not win, a war of this kind is by not using soldiers so openly, but using more stealth tactics and undercover foreign agents, spies, and contacts. My 2 cents, which I realize are rooted in naivete and youthfullness. Flame as you please; I look forward to learning from it. :ko:

[Paikea]

Look up Counterinsurgency Warfare (http://books.google.com/books?id=KePMVLgpKUUC&dq=&pg=PP1&ots=IcXudIvPNk&sig=LttQZBXf83tebfD9rvPC-1TIDI4&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26rls%3Dcom.microsof t:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26sa%3DX%26oi%3Dspell%26resnum%3D0%26ct% 3Dresult%26cd%3D1%26q%3DCounterInsurgency%2BWarfar e%26spell%3D1&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title). It's an insurgency, something that in fact we (and our erstwhile "coalition partners") actually do have a lot of experience dealing with. Unfortunately, we have chosen to disregard that experience.

[KO1598]

ok i prob should've rephrased my posts, my main point is that people make it seem as if they have never benefited from war and all their good fortune just dropped out of the sky, which isnt true. and thank you for the people who answered my posts with arguments rather than insults, because making an insult is not making a point at all.

[Fudo-Shin]

Sometimes making a point/debate/argument doesn't actually achieve anything, such as this case. And in some circumstances it can have an adverse effect. There is a time and place to bring up this line of subject, I don't believe that the Kendo World Forums are that place, but that's just my opinion. Carry on debating the World's problems if you must, let me know when you are making some progress. IMO, better to remain silent until you can see your time to talk.

[Kendoka_Han]

Kendoka Han, I gather from your previous posts that you are a young person.

Yes indeed. I am 19. As it appears with my "outrages" claims, obviously you might think me as a young person with wild irrational logic.


Please don't presume to know the intentions of a nation or its service members.

I think its likely that I DO know the workings of a nations GOVERNMENT and service. I have been a recruiting RAAF cadet, and left due to those circumstances. I realized I was cannon fodder no matter how I look at it, and I realized I would be dead before my brother, and my brother will indeed be forced to fight in the up coming WWIII.

When I say "WWIII", it wont be called that name, as the war in Iraq and Israel is already the beginning of it.


Yes, I am a retired Air Force veteran. I served in the Intelligence field for my entire 22 years of service and continue to serve my country in that capacity to this day. I served in Desert Storm and sad to say, had a direct hand in many battles.

I am impressed to read such words. I am equally impressed and happy for your survival and victory.


When you say the "lies of the U.S. government", I bristle at that. That is a presumption at least and possibly blind prejudice, I don't know the extent of your knowledge.

Nicely put. I can say the same about you, because you will know a lot more things in the military operations side than any close quarter civilian.

However their are logical reasoning behind my beliefs.


From my experience, I can tell all of you and I'm sure most of you know this already, war is a very, very, complicated, intricate, amazingly interweaved process of analysis, decision-making, and action.

Precisely my point!

Which comes back to my previous questions, what was the ACTUAL reason for WW1? and WW2?

What is the ACTUAL reason for the upcoming "WW3"?


Intelligence, in the form of finished reports, raw reports, images, etc. gets passed down, up, back down again, around and around and finally, someone has to make a decision based on what is thought to be known. It is NOT a definitive process. I have no idea how everybody got this idea that the word "intelligence", as it pertains to the military, means "absolute fact".

Very true.


So President Bush, our military leaders, acted and are acting, on the best possible information that they were given. Some of this information was wrong but, Holy Cow people, where in history or anywhere else for that matter, does it say that miltary intelligence is infallible? We've won and lost wars on this concept.

Your still in front of enemy lines, and not behind it.

President Bush is not only a skull and bone member, but a satanist of the bohemian grove free masonry illuminati.

I find it funny how a president, who can talk drunk on stage, can be elected for such a well organized country and military. The fact that your saying they get the "best possible information" is soundly true, its however equally true that Bush and his party are really playing a game with peoples lives, and ultimately the Prince William or Prince Harry is going to be the next Anti Christ.

P.S Constantine was the supposed first Anti Christ.

P.P.S How do you explain President Bush's bloodline to be in close proximity with the Royal Families bloodline?

Theoretically ALL humans on this earth originate from Adam. But how do you explain this close proximity? Its like a big "Greek" family ruling the world.


Nevertheless, I feel a deep belief that the U.S. is trying to improve situations around the world in good faith and we are being excorciated for it.

Think Star Wars.

The Rebellion is basically people like me. The Imperials are the people who side with the One World Order, One World Religion and One World Leader (The Emperor). Imperials will kill you if you don't join them (same thing with the Nazi's and the Jews, and this will undoubtedly occur when all nations of the UN go against Israel.

This type of "We are the good people, we want peace" US law / tag line is just plane contradictory. Remember, the Emperor in Revenge of the Sith ALSO said, "I will create a Grand Army of the Republic (which then goes to be the Imperials), to counter the increasing threats".

The Droid army is basically Iraq and any known "threat" against the US and other countries. The emperor then follows up with, "I will create the FIRST galactic (One World) senate of the republic, for a [secure] society". We both know that the Emperor is evil, why does he say "Secure society"? Same thing with the US government, the UN and the rest.

So really its one big game. This type of setup in actual fact of false accusations and the hate towards each other, brings the plans together for the Anti Christ (The emperor for example).

[Kendoka_Han]

Why was there WW1? Well, lots of reasons. You could blame imperialism, you could alliances, you could blame it on the blank check, or even Austria-Hungary for reacting the way they did. You could even blame gunboat diplomacy. At any rate, many, many people smarter than either of us have written many different points on this and nothing is completely conclusive. I somehow doubt you have the answer without even having studied it in any depth (relative to the PhD's).

WW1 was a test war.

From Wiki -
The Entente Powers, led by France, Russia, the United Kingdom, and later Italy (from 1915) and the United States (from 1917), defeated the Central Powers, led by the Austro-Hungarian, German, Bulgarian and Ottoman Empires. Russia withdrew from the war after the revolution in 1917.

The war caused the disintegration of four empires: the Austro-Hungarian, German, Ottoman and Russian. Germany lost its colonial empire and states such as Czechoslovakia, Estonia, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Yugoslavia gained independence. The cost of waging the war set the stage for the breakup of the British Empire as well and left France devastated for more than a generation.

World War I marked the end of the world order which had existed after the Napoleonic Wars, and was an important factor in the outbreak of World War II.

Some symbolic situations are here. I wont quote any scripture for now, but the four empires and spreading of the rest of the countries are prophecized.


WW2? I'd blame Hitler, but even that has controversy.

Well, Hitler was their to start the war, but the MAIN reason for WW2, was for the fact that they can create a UN. This is the beginning of the One World Order, Hitler himself talked about a One World Order, and countless presidents at the time of WW2 talked about a OWO or a New World Order, in relation to a ONE supreme leader!


WW3? Why do you figure it will happen?

Well WW3 is already starting. WW3 is more of the fact that Nazism is regrowing in a state that will deceive even the christians. WW3 is going to be the UN against Israel and Christs people around the world. We will be asked to take the mark of the beast, or suffer.

The so called VeriChip that was in testing a few years ago has caused some controversy with many christians, and now the tag line is "XChip" or "Xmark" something. Now the company (Of the US btw) are claiming, "Oh its not really bad, its just a more efficient way of handling your personal details and credit card details"

Revelations 13:16-18
"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred sixty and six."

It is however clear that the economy we live in is already a branch of the beast we are helping out.

[Fudo-Shin]

[edit]...President Bush is not only a skull and bone member, but a satanist of the bohemian grove free masonry illuminati.

... and ultimately the Prince William or Prince Harry is going to be the next Anti Christ.(In Kenny's voice) OMG!! Those Bastards!! :eek:

[Fudo-Shin]

Sorry Double Post

[Fudo-Shin]

Make that triple....don't ask!

[Owen]

kendoka han, i was wrong. you really are insane after all.

[Kendoka_Han]

kendoka han, i was wrong. you really are insane after all.

Should I be offended? No. I could say the same about you in not logically understanding. Though I think the best medicine is research :)

[Owen]

Should I be offended? No. I could say the same about you in not logically understanding. Though I think the best medicine is research :)

im not trying to offend you, im just informing you.

george lucas made up star wars. it isnt real. it never will be real. just like scientology.

p.s. its stan and kyle who say oh my god! you bastard!, not kenny.

[Fudo-Shin]

p.s. its stan and kyle who say oh my god! you bastard!, not kenny.meh, this time it was Kenny...:)

[Kendoka_Han]

im not trying to offend you, im just informing you.

Thats fine.


george lucas made up star wars. it isnt real. it never will be real. just like scientology.

So true!

But do you read my posts properly? Dont you even see the "out of context" EXAMPLE I am trying to give for a better understanding in why I believe in such things?

Have you even tried to think how star wars magically resembles the way current generation governments are heading?

Go look up New World Order, then go see the magical reference given in star wars.

I will always look at star wars as a great future sci-fi story. Its just coincidental that the senate setting is the same as ours in real life.

[Owen]

meh, this time it was Kenny...:)

ok. oh my god, you killed me! you bastard!

makes as much sense as the rest of the show :p

[Fudo-Shin]

I will always look at star wars as a great future sci-fi story. Its just coincidental that the senate setting is the same as ours in real life.Make no mistake...It's no coincidence...It's all part of their plan!

I've revealed too much already.:gasmask:

[Owen]

so you agree that hes nuts?

[Fudo-Shin]

so you agree that hes nuts?Who knows, maybe just a little eccentric. :)

[Owen]

id say more than a little.

[neko kenshi]

This thread has drifted too much.

[neko kenshi]

Kendoka Han, you haven't given any decent evidence for anything you've said. Just one claim after another. Back up your points, please (with real evidence). It's better reading that way. Thanks.

[Owen]

its not really drifting. more like swaying in the breeze

[Owen]

and dont quote star wars or the bible for evidence.

[Kendoka_Han]

Kendoka Han, you haven't given any decent evidence for anything you've said. Just one claim after another. Back up your points, please (with real evidence). It's better reading that way. Thanks.

Sure.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4959110838223046399

View that home made documentary made by profound TRUE christians.

also, for the second version...in 3 parts

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6468335733049415398

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=846711885637533975

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4625054721884456908

Then, go and review this site, based on the videos above...

http://www.adullamfilms.org/

and listen to the daily radio program by T.A Mc and Dave Hunt.

http://www.thebereancall.org/

[kartoffelngeist]

I was about to post saying it's good to see a passionate, but informed and polite debate on kwf.

Oh well...

[Owen]

christianity is a religion, not a fact. dont use it as one.

[neko kenshi]

I believe a "true" christian is one who follows the whole "love one another" doctrine, and doesn't get too caught up in everything else. In fact, I think it's more christian to be a good person without a religious incentive, but simply because you have love for strangers. Seems that idea is largely looked over these days, though. People trying to turn Christianity into a cult.

[neko kenshi]

Kartoffelngeist: Sorry, I think I contributed to the downfall of this thread. It'd be nice if we did get back on topic, though.

[neko kenshi]

Crap, too late to edit my first post out. I don't want to start a religious debate. I guess just ignore it if you can.

[Kendoka_Han]

I believe a "true" christian is one who follows the whole "love one another" doctrine, and doesn't get too caught up in everything else. In fact, I think it's more christian to be a good person without a religious incentive, but simply because you have love for strangers. Seems that idea is largely looked over these days, though. People trying to turn Christianity into a cult.

Really? That sounds more of a Buddhism philosophy.

So what your saying is;

- Being friends to strangers (who both sin) is more important than giving Christ importance?

- Being friends to strangers (who both sin) is more important than giving the Bible Importance?

Well I will have to disagree with you. A true Christian would take the time to actually try and un-blind the strangers towards the truth in a FRIENDLY and informed manner.

Guess who is turning Christianity into a cult, the Catholic Church. Now that church is corrupting the other Churchs, such as the lutherans, etc.

Now the only hope for salvation (and always have been) is not through a Church, or a Pope (that sins), or Mary, or a Saint, or whatever the stupid humanly rule is; but through Christ our Lord.

Prophecy proves the Lords existence.

[Kendoka_Han]

christianity is a religion, not a fact. dont use it as one.

Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship with God and Christ.

[Big One]

I don't know who else but I have enough with this thread.

[Alison2805]

Look, both Owen and Kendoka Han - shut it. You guys WERE doing a good job of getting everyone to accept you as kendoka. Stop fucking it up.

[Owen]

fine. i still think hes crazy though

[Ignatz]

. . .Sun Tzu said and I paraphrase here greatly, that to conquer and occupy a nation, you have to beat them so badly, demoralize them, give them no hope and no capability WHATSOEVER to retaliate. . .

I think you might be confusing Sun Tzu with Von Clauswitz. Sun Tzu said always give your enemy at least the illusion of an avenue of escape because deperate people do desperate things. History is rife with examples of desperate people overcoming overwhelming odds.

I think that a great part of our problem is that by the 1990's most, if not all of the people who had actual combat experience were retired from the military leaving us with a bunch of theoriticians who had no real experience. The thinking shifted from SunTzu to VonClauswitz.

Now we end up with Bush/Cheney and their ilk who did everything in their power to avoid combat and now are hawks because they personally are safe and they can now imagine themselves as he-men.

Clinton may have lied and bullshitted about a lot of things but I don't think he ever denied being a draft dodger.

Here are two quotes that may be apropos:

"Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle! Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will. Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."
--Frederick Douglass, August 4, 1857

and

ALEXIS DE TOQUEVILLE. Upon visiting America in the early 19th Century, this French historian observed: "America is great because America is GOOD. If America ever ceases to be good it will cease to be great."

[Ignatz]

. . .Buddhism. . .
. . .Christ. . .
Bible. . .
true Christian . . .
Christianity. . .
a cult. . .
the Catholic Church. . .
corrupting the other Churchs. . .
Christ our Lord. . .

Are you Ted Haggard?

[Kendoka_Han]

Are you Ted Haggard?

No, but I am quite similar to Dave Hunt.

[Kenzan]

And now a word from our sponsor..

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He told the couple that one of the things he had to give away was the ability to stand up while urinating. "It's a very handy thing," God told the couple, who he found hanging around under an apple tree. "I was wondering if either one of you wanted that ability."

Adam jumped up and blurted, "Oh, give that to me! When I'm working in the garden or naming the animals, I could just stand there and let it fly. It'd be so cool I could write my name in the sand. Oh, please God, let it be me who you give that gift to, let me stand and pee, oh please."

On and on he went like an excited little boy who had to pee. Eve just smiled and told God that if Adam really wanted that so badly he could have it. It seemed to be the sort of thing that would make him happy, and she really wouldn't mind if Adam was the one given this ability.

And so Adam was given the ability to control the direction of his urination while in a vertical position. And lo, he was happy and did celebrate by wetting down the bark on the tree nearest him, laughing with delight all the while. And it was good.

"Fine", God said, looking back into his bag of leftover gifts. "What's left here? Oh yes, multiple orgasms."

....and now, back to; "When Threads Attack!" Only on FOX!
:D:D

[Ignatz]

No, but I am quite similar to Dave Hunt.

I don't know who that is but I would venture a guess that he is another self aggrandizing, intolerant hate monger speading his peculiar brand of vitriol in the name of jesus.

[Inner_Silence]

avoid off-topic chat please

[ahmed61086]

Anyone here watch the zeitgeist movie?

[Inner_Silence]

I think that there was a time when there was something worth to fight for.
there was a time when there was something worth to die for.
nowadays isnt that way.

for us, the occidental world there was many things that really matters, just to put few examples. in french revolution people fought and died for ideals, another example. here in my own country, almost 40 years ago, people died becouse of their beliefs, and they where so deeply apasionate in this, that people choose to be killed instead of changing or betraying their ideals. and like that countless examples.

there was a time when people REALLY believed in something (doesent matter if that belief is "right" or "wrong"), a time when people rather DIE instead of betraying themselves, their beliefs and ideals, their loved ones or even their countries. there was a time when moral values REALLY mattered.
there was a time when wars where fought for a reason. and people died for a reason.

nowadays everything has turned in a wicked way.
now money isnt more important than ideals, now MONEY IS THE IDEAL. now everyone of us fight our own little or big wars for something that doesent even matters. we fight for "having something" instead of "being something".
today wars are made for "profits", people die depending on how much money they cost. today war is an INVESTMENT. and all sort of pseudo "country/freedom/family values" are being inserted in our society to justify war or to lower the profile of our own genocide. EXCUSES ARE BEING MADE TO JUSTIFY KILLING. how much money or litters of oil does cost our lives? is there an amount of money that makes it worth comming back home in a body bag?

"war on terror", "source of evil", "fight for freedom", "fight for democracy", "in god we trust" and a long list of etc once it mattered, now those are just words. and people are dying for this words.
nowadays democracy and freedom HAVE DIED and thats the truth. democracy was killed in our time when goverments where sold to "neoliberal" world, making us slaves of the "having something". and freedom died when "america" showed us the power of their weapons over hiroshima and nagasaki. genocide of civilians? yes indeed. did WE do something about it? NO. why not? becouse non of us believe as strong and deeply in democracy and freedon to DIE for it. we only show our disagreement until they show their weapons.

we are not like our grandfathers, we are cowards.

is there something we can do to stop it? no, at least no without getting killed. the only thing we can do is stop supporting war. doesent matter the reason, people are not suposed to fight each other. or AT LEAST let military kill each other but civilian, kids, and lots of innocen people are getting killed of injured for reasons that they dont even understand. in fact, even the military dont know why they are dying for.

my 2 cents

[Paikea]

we are not like our grandfathers, we are cowards.
Respectfully, you may speak for yourself.

[Jearom]

I think that there was a time when there was something worth to fight for.
there was a time when there was something worth to die for.
nowadays isnt that way.

for us, the occidental world there was many things that really matters, just to put few examples. in french revolution people fought and died for ideals,

I suspect most people who died in the french revolution would rather not have died and did not do so for any ideal.
And those who came out on top of that said revolution, did they not gain power and wealth?
And wasn`t that what they wanted the all along?

If your side is "good" then the opposing side must be "bad" or "evil", yes?
But isn`t that just from your perspective of things?
Your evil terrorist might be my good guy revolutionist.
I think that most, if not all, wars since the dawn of time has been about money and power.
Not for most peolpe involved, those who fought and died, but for those who started the fighting and managed to survive.
The guys with power, the wealthy, noble, strong or powerful.
This is the same today.

[Inner_Silence]

when i said that "we are not like our grandfathers, we are cowards.", i was assuming that people that read it would get that i was speaking metaphorically. i guess i was wrong so im explaining.

by that i mean that we do have ideals and beliefs, but we dont believe strong enough in this to give away our lives for this ideals. as our ancestors did (by grand father i didnt mean the father of my father)

when i speak about "fighting" for ideals i dont mean picking up a gun and start killing the people that doesent think the way i do.
and FOR SURE when i said "dying for ideals" i didnt mean "killing for ideals" and thats whats happening now.

to put an example. i remember a video that i saw thay happened here in my country. military have taken the power and ended up in 17 years of dictatorship and more than 3000 people dead and more than 5000 injured (thats between people tortured, woman raped by military, etc...) anbd i saw this video about a guy, a civilian guy about 20 years old, that went running and lay down in front of a tank wheels to make it stop. you can figure it out what happen then.

THATS hat im talking about, thats whats means REALLY to believe in something. its easyer to believe when you ate holding a gun that when you are facing the man with the gun.

[Paikea]

when i said that "we are not like our grandfathers, we are cowards.", i was assuming that people that read it would get that i was speaking metaphorically. i guess i was wrong so im explaining.
Yes, I understood your meaning, and I believe you are wrong. You may characterize yourself as a coward as you please, but leave the generalization to "we" out.


THATS what I'm talking about, that's what it means to REALLY to believe in something. Its easier to believe when you are holding a gun that when you are facing the man with the gun.Please do tell of your personal experience of either holding the gun or facing the man with the gun - or is that metaphorical too? If so, then I submit you have no standing to claim knowledge in the subject matter.

Igz, I always hated reading Toqueville (even when he was right). Smug tourist.

[Inner_Silence]

it seems you are military do you?
if that so
may I ask a personal question?

[Inner_Silence]

and yes it was methaphorical too.
"holding a gun" means "having power" i mean, power to subdue someone by force or against their will, not necesarily by physical force, i mean for example, the power for controlling economy, or the power of heving a greater army...

from now on im gonna start writing with apples and peaches, as we say here.

[Big One]

I am sorry to say it but the guy laying down in front of a tank is stupid. His life worthless and he didn't effect anything with his life.

[neko kenshi]

"war on terror", "source of evil", "fight for freedom", "fight for democracy", "in god we trust" and a long list of etc once it mattered, now those are just words. and people are dying for this words.

Been reading Trumbo?



we are not like our grandfathers, we are cowards.


The difference is what we're fighting for. Contrast the support for WW2 with the support for the Vietnam War. When you look at the reasons behind each war, it becomes apparent why (or at least a big part of why) there was the disparity. I think if Hitler rose today, we'd fight him just the same as our grandfathers. Besides, it's not like before that wars weren't equally disputed before WW2. WW1 had a lot of controversies, and others much more than that. Anywho, different causes gain different levels of support.

[Inner_Silence]

I am sorry to say it but the guy laying down in front of a tank is stupid. His life worthless and he didn't effect anything with his life.

thats what you think.
acts or REAL brave hearts give us examples about determination, but thats only to the open eye. thats only for people that can really appreciate the power of ideals. ill explain:

if that man did that, it was becouse of his determination within his own toughts, ideals and moral. just felt worth for an unarmed man face a tank, not becouse it would change anything. it is becouse it MEANS something. an thats not stupid, thats heroic.

you want to know what is stupid??

stupid is to call a "war hero" a guy that has killed a considerable amount of enemies in war and live to tell his story.
stupid is to call an "airforce veteran" a guy that has taken down more than 5 enemy planes. thats stupid.
how twisted is our world that we give medals to those who kills, instead of those that has never murdered anyone???

[KO1598]

I am sorry to say it but the guy laying down in front of a tank is stupid. His life worthless and he didn't effect anything with his life.

The man that lays in front of a tank is trying to make a statement, not actually trying to stop the tank. Kill yourself to make a statement can make a difference, I'm not encouraging it but its not entirely without a point. I can't remember his name but wasn't there a Buhddist monk his burned himself in the middle of the city because the South Vietnam Government was persecuting buhddism. His sacrifice stopped the persecution and brought worldwide attention to the persecution. Sometimes death is the only thing that will make people hear you. Again I am not encouraging anyone to kill themself, better to find a solution without death on both sides.

[Big One]

Oh, you mentioned about burning monk in Vietnam. Let me tell you this, there was no persecution of Budhist in Vietnam. They wanted to make Budhism a national religion and the governemtn refused to do that. Then the whole thing started. Have you ever wondered why that monk body didn't react to the burning? Have you ever wondered why all of the Media camera were ready to shoot the burning without anyone tried to rescue him. Who poured the gasoline on him. Have you known that those who set it up later became high level officer in communist government. Let me tell you, the whole thing was a set up. Too bad, the country later is under communist regime which drove million people to escape the country, which persecuted thousand and thousand people.

A statement is worth nothing, make your life more useful worth much more.

[Ignatz]

Oh, you mentioned about burning monk in Vietnam. Let me tell you this, there was no persecution of Budhist in Vietnam. They wanted to make Budhism a national religion and the governemtn refused to do that. Then the whole thing started. Have you ever wondered why that monk body didn't react to the burning? Have you ever wondered why all of the Media camera were ready to shoot the burning without anyone tried to rescue him. Who poured the gasoline on him. Have you known that those who set it up later became high level officer in communist government. Let me tell you, the whole thing was a set up. Too bad, the country later is under communist regime which drove million people to escape the country, which persecuted thousand and thousand people.

A statement is worth nothing, make your life more useful worth much more.
His name was Thich Quang Duc. Graham Greene's "The Quiet America" is a pretty good story about those times.

I was going to write a long answer to your post but since I was 13 when this happened I'm pretty sure you were much less than that.

So I will say just this:

The only thing that revolution has ever changed is the name of the oppressor.

If you or inner silence ever take over the government you will eventually end up teying to tell me what I can or can't do. I'm pretty sure that better men than either of you have tried and failed at that.

[KO1598]

Good point Ignatz, the only thing is people are ok with being oppressed to a certain degree, Would you say America oppress's us? If they do, well everyone seems to be ok with that. So rebellion is not such a bad thing in a way.

[Owen]

you need to listen to some rage against the machine... rebellion is good.

[Inner_Silence]

His name was Thich Quang Duc. Graham Greene's "The Quiet America" is a pretty good story about those times.

I was going to write a long answer to your post but since I was 13 when this happened I'm pretty sure you were much less than that.

So I will say just this:

The only thing that revolution has ever changed is the name of the oppressor.

If you or inner silence ever take over the government you will eventually end up teying to tell me what I can or can't do. I'm pretty sure that better men than either of you have tried and failed at that.

agree.

looks like in this case we are talking of two different subjects here.

the things i way are very simple

1.- war is wrong
2.- war is wrong and bad
3.- today the reason of wars are different of what it was yesterday
4.- war is bad

in point 3: its obvious that almost every war trough history has been to get a profit out of it, the difference is that today profits are the ONLY reason of wars. today in our sick and sad world there is no such thing as ideals or beliefs, everything in this neoliberal world is vain and superficial, there is nothing that REALLY matters to fight for, and to die for. only money today there is nothig that REALLY worth believing in. "freedom" or "democracy" ceased to exist a long time ago.
im not sayng that in history ALL fights where for ideals. i say tah in the past some of those wars where for it, and there was some people that had in such high esteem their beliefs that they thought that their ideals where even more important than their own life. im not sayng that this is right or wrong, personally i thing that noone SOULD be in the situation that has to decide between his beliefs or his life. but today this beliefs DOES NOT EXIST.
freedom, democracy, peace, security, etc once existed, today are just myths, myths that we believe becouse we see this lies everyday in the tv and we buy it.

HOW ILLOGICAL CAN IT BE, what logic it is in going to war in order to have peace?? in wich place of the universe, peace or brotherhood are made by killing people??? this is just wrong.

[Inner_Silence]

Good point Ignatz, the only thing is people are ok with being oppressed to a certain degree, Would you say America oppress's us? If they do, well everyone seems to be ok with that. So rebellion is not such a bad thing in a way.

agree on that
everyone SEEMS to be ok with that.
but is really ok?
i mean, the fact that people aproved oppression doesnt mean that it is ok.

[neko kenshi]

agree on that
everyone SEEMS to be ok with that.
but is really ok?
i mean, the fact that people aproved oppression doesnt mean that it is ok.

I have to disagree with you here. If you approve of your own oppression, then it's ok. I approve of being "oppressed" in some ways because I benefit from it (or at least I think I do, which is enough).

[neko kenshi]

freedom, democracy, peace, security, etc once existed, today are just myths, myths that we believe becouse we see this lies everyday in the tv and we buy it.

Well, I agree that they are misused, that doesn't mean they don't exist and aren't worth fighting for to some people. Freedom matters if you're so oppressed you feel imprisoned. Peace matters if people are constantly attacking you and killing members of your family. Security matters if there is a clear and eminent threat that you very much want to prevent. All these situations exist in all sorts of places today, and all are worth fighting for. That said, often politicians use these words to try to attach meaning to their own agenda.


HOW ILLOGICAL CAN IT BE, what logic it is in going to war in order to have peace?? in wich place of the universe, peace or brotherhood are made by killing people??? this is just wrong.

Perhaps not brotherhood, but in some situations where genocide is taking place today (I'd use examples, but I'm shamefully ignorant of those examples), war could possibly bring peace. Obviously war is not an act of peace, however war can be used as a tool to bring peace.

Point being, even today some wars are completely justified deciding which is a matter of opinion, and blanket statements are inadequate when describing such complicated situations.

[Owen]

ive got a question:

how did we go from looking for bin laden in afghanistan to mucking around in iraq? i seriously dont know the answer if somebody could fill me in id appriciate it.

[Inner_Silence]

I have to disagree with you here. If you approve of your own oppression, then it's ok. I approve of being "oppressed" in some ways because I benefit from it (or at least I think I do, which is enough).

that im not sure, for instance the fact that we are THEORICALLY safer from terrorist apocalypse by letting our goverments to have access to every personal information we have, doesnt mean that it is ok for someone to read someone elses mail, or to hear someone elses telephone conversation.

or the fact that some delicate issues for our goverments are better to be kept in secret for security doesnt mean that it is ok to censorship people on their freedon to speech.
or to put it more exagerated: the fact that someone could be a terrorist doesnt mean that it is ok to kill him.
you see what i mean? it is a fact that some thing could be good or wrong depending on what our society agrees on good or wrong, but there are some natural rights that are just inherent in ourselves that could be putted aside by popular demand, but it doesnt mean that it ir right to do it.


Well, I agree that they are misused, that doesn't mean they don't exist and aren't worth fighting for to some people. Freedom matters if you're so oppressed you feel imprisoned. Peace matters if people are constantly attacking you and killing members of your family. Security matters if there is a clear and eminent threat that you very much want to prevent. All these situations exist in all sorts of places today, and all are worth fighting for. That said, often politicians use these words to try to attach meaning to their own agenda.

thats a point of view.
but personally I think that those values doesnt even exist.
I think that democracy died when our goverments where sold to our neoliberal system. with this i mean, when a central bank started to rule our countryes. now democracy is just another fake to make people shut, thinking thay their opinions or the opinions of our goverments worth a dime. it is SO obvious that multinationals and economy rules our country, our way of living, our way of thinking, even the way we dress or eat. laws are being pulled out to "secure a healthy economy" wich really means "to give more money to rich people".
freedon died when US dropped the bomb in japan. now you can do EVERYTHING you want as long as it isnt against the empire. every attempt to being in disagree will be shuted, banned, censored or just killed. we all know that US was against all united nations when it started this war, but who gives a damn about the world. the fact is that the one that has the bombs and the money is the one that rules. everything else are just empty words.
here in chile we have a say, it goes like this

"thank god we dont have oil reserves, thank god we are a poor country. otrherwise we would have being invaded too"

man, thats NOT freedom.

[Inner_Silence]

ive got a question:

how did we go from looking for bin laden in afghanistan to mucking around in iraq? i seriously dont know the answer if somebody could fill me in id appriciate it.

becouse it is a set-up
first check out this lapsus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXDMIVYbJgs) (lapsus happen when you say something but you really are thinking in something else)

secondly ask bush to answer your question (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PGmnz5Ow-o) see if you belive this bullsh*t

as the grand finale! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1wpgGPt4sM) its all a brainwash for ignorant people that believe this lies, thats 70% of american people.

really there is nothing between sadam and bin laden. in fact there are more in between bush andbin laden, before this all mayhem happened they where associated economically (see farenheit 911)

[bullet08]

1.- war is wrong
2.- war is wrong and bad
3.- today the reason of wars are different of what it was yesterday
4.- war is bad
.

war isn't good or right, but i won't say it's necessarily bad, or wrong. and those who are being killed out there might believe in some ideals that's different from you and they might believe what they are doing is right.

i'm sure taliban weren't thinking about creating hell, but rather thinking about creating muslim heaven which from western view wasn't much different from hell. i'm sure all those people fighting against US in iraq sure have some idea what they are doing all the killing for and why they are being killed.

and when things are going in such a way that it's against some nation's policy those who can call up the troops and go step on those who are raising hell will do so, and it's not really 'bad', or 'wrong'.. but it's just part of political process. war is a tool just like any other tool to hammer those nails that's sticking out.

fighting for oil isn't much different from fighting for other resources which lot of european nations did not too long ago. fight for 'freedom' from perspective of the others isn't much different from what US or french did back in 1700.

pete

[Kendoka_Han]

I don't know who that is but I would venture a guess that he is another self aggrandizing, intolerant hate monger speading his peculiar brand of vitriol in the name of jesus.

http://www.thebereancall.org/

[Chaby]

"Peace (http://youtube.com/watch?v=I-NRriHlLUk) comes from being able to contribute the best that we have, and all that we are, toward creating a world that supports everyone.
But it is also securing the space for others to contribute the best that they have and all that they are."

-Hafsat Abiola-

[Ignatz]

Good point Ignatz, the only thing is people are ok with being oppressed to a certain degree, Would you say America oppress's us? If they do, well everyone seems to be ok with that. So rebellion is not such a bad thing in a way.

America is just a concept and thus oppresses nobody. Individuals who gain power will look out for their self interest at your expense. They will make laws and use the police to make their position solid. They will say that if you disagree you ar disloyal to the country, you are a traitor.
How much will you put up with? Up until that point you really oppress yourself. If you rebel and succeed then you become the one who wants to keep your position at the expense of others.

Some people will try to use religion to make their own position secure. Instead of being a traitor you are a heretic. Those people are all the same, they wouldn't understand jesus if he came and bit them on the ass.

[Inner_Silence]

war isn't good or right (...)
i understand what you are sayin, but still, in this case is a point of view. in my case:
war is wrong

[Inner_Silence]

... you really oppress yourself. ...

I couldnt have said it better

[Owen]

ah. that reinforced my opinion that it was complete bull.

[dukboy123]

Woooo boy! I couldn't check any of this out over our long Labor Day holiday but you guys certainly have been duking it out!

I scanned over all the post and couldn't catch every single little thing but if I may comment on several things....

Inner Silence...I respect your belief that any war is wrong. You won't find too many people who won't agree with that basic statement. BUT....to say that people don't fight wars for ideas or ethics or morals is so completly wrong that it totally boggles my mind. Why don't you tell that to the hundreds if not thousands of mothers and fathers of dead servicemen, servicemen who have died in the war against terror, sons and daughters who joined the military to serve their country. Tell that the parents of Pat Tillman, an Army Ranger who turned down millions of dollars to play professional football so he could join the army and defend his country against terrorism. He was killed in a friendly fire accident in Afghanistan but that doesn't diminish his intent.

Not only that, ironically, what the heck do you think the extremist Islamics are doing right now? To them, they are fighting a Holy War (though I suspect most are using that term facetiously), a war about ideals, religious and other wise.

"we are not like our grandfathers, we are cowards."

I would just respectfully ask you not to come near me and say something like that.....

"stupid is to call a "war hero" a guy that has killed a considerable amount of enemies in war and live to tell his story.
stupid is to call an "airforce veteran" a guy that has taken down more than 5 enemy planes. thats stupid.
how twisted is our world that we give medals to those who kills, instead of those that has never murdered anyone???"

You don't get it. If you've never defended anything in your life with vigor with injury or death possible, you'll never get it. They don't give medals for killilng people. They give medals for acts of valor, courage, service, for contributions to your nation. To defend your nation. Tell you what, you go over there and sit in the corner and talk your pacifist stuff and when some terrorists come to kill your family, let a military member come and save them.

Ignatz, Perhaps you're right about the Sun Tzu/Von Clauswitz thing though I could've swore it was Sun Tzu. That's ok, the doctrine is out there. And you're also right about the lack of military experience among our leaders. I'm afraid there will come a day when NO ONE in the Senate or House will have any military experience and they won't have a clue about how the military actually functions. Though perhaps we've already reached this point...Sad....

Owen:

"how did we go from looking for bin laden in afghanistan to mucking around in iraq? i seriously dont know the answer if somebody could fill me in id appriciate it."

Two different situations. 9/11 happened and we found out that Al Qaida was behind it. So we went on a hunt for Al Qaida terrorist. During this whole time and even before 9/11, the world was watching Iraq for hints that they had Weapons of Mass Destruction. The UN gave them ultimatum after ultimatum. They ignored them all. They ignored one too many and that led to the invasion. Subsequently, Islamic extremists have flocked to Iraq for the chance to kill Americans. And now the two causes have blurred and joined. That's a very, very, very, brief description and in now way encompasses all the complexities of the situation.

Inner Silence, you and I just disagree too much so we should probably just, as they say, agree to disagree.

[JoDuncan]

Woooo boy! I couldn't check any of this out over our long Labor Day holiday but you guys certainly have been duking it out!


So, does that mean the white keikogi is back in the wardrobe?

:p

[dukboy123]

No Jo, I believe that means the white is OUT after Labor Day....how embarrassing for you! :wink:

[Kendoka_Han]

Inner Silence...I respect your belief that any war is wrong. You won't find too many people who won't agree with that basic statement. BUT....to say that people don't fight wars for ideas or ethics or morals is so completly wrong that it totally boggles my mind. Why don't you tell that to the hundreds if not thousands of mothers and fathers of dead servicemen, servicemen who have died in the war against terror, sons and daughters who joined the military to serve their country.

Well he could tell them that they were foolish enough to even JOIN the game of governments and to fight the "terrorism".


Not only that, ironically, what the heck do you think the extremist Islamics are doing right now? To them, they are fighting a Holy War (though I suspect most are using that term facetiously), a war about ideals, religious and other wise.

You want to talk irony? and irony of a HOLY WAR?

Well how does the US president, George W Bush during the 2005 inaugural address speaks about on how our national identity is based, in part, on the Koran!

George W Bush - " That secure self is built in families, supported by communities with standards, and sustained in our national life by the truths of cyanide, the sermon on the mount, the words of the koran, and the very faiths of our people."

So the US is fighting terrorists with the same faith of the president. Interesting.


You don't get it. If you've never defended anything in your life with vigor with injury or death possible, you'll never get it. They don't give medals for killilng people. They give medals for acts of valor, courage, service, for contributions to your nation. To defend your nation. Tell you what, you go over there and sit in the corner and talk your pacifist stuff and when some terrorists come to kill your family, let a military member come and save them.

Dont Idol stupid earthly materials of silver and gold. Will a medal earn you more "lives" in up coming battles? Will it give back a life to those that you killed? Will you ever be able to overcome the thought of guilt of you killing someone? If so then you might think of yourself as a God. Therefore, revive those that you have killed.

Oh and about my own family being attacked....I am sure I can defend my family without the need of a marine even if I am inferior.


Two different situations. 9/11 happened and we found out that Al Qaida was behind it. So we went on a hunt for Al Qaida terrorist. During this whole time and even before 9/11, the world was watching Iraq for hints that they had Weapons of Mass Destruction. The UN gave them ultimatum after ultimatum. They ignored them all. They ignored one too many and that led to the invasion. Subsequently, Islamic extremists have flocked to Iraq for the chance to kill Americans. And now the two causes have blurred and joined. That's a very, very, very, brief description and in now way encompasses all the complexities of the situation.

9/11 was developed for a fear of terrorism for the boost of the so called "Secure Police, New World Order state".

[kartoffelngeist]

Lots of stuff (I think)

Eh?

Have you come accross Phil Wright on any of his many threads? You should consider writing a book together...:D:D

[Ignatz]

. . . I'm afraid there will come a day when NO ONE in the Senate or House will have any military experience and they won't have a clue about how the military actually functions. . . .

I would be more concerned about a military that doesn't know what war is like.

[Paikea]

I would be more concerned about a military that doesn't know what war is like....or a President.

[Paikea]

No Jo, I believe that means the white is OUT after Labor Day....how embarrassing for you! :wink:Yep, and the open-toed shoes have to go.

[Ignatz]

Yep, and the open-toed shoes have to go.

I hung up my boater and seersucker hakama and dogi for the season.

[Light Samurai]

Well he could tell them that they were foolish enough to even JOIN the game of governments and to fight the "terrorism".



You want to talk irony? and irony of a HOLY WAR?

Well how does the US president, George W Bush during the 2005 inaugural address speaks about on how our national identity is based, in part, on the Koran!

George W Bush - " That secure self is built in families, supported by communities with standards, and sustained in our national life by the truths of cyanide, the sermon on the mount, the words of the koran, and the very faiths of our people."

So the US is fighting terrorists with the same faith of the president. Interesting.

Read what you just said again, please.

and maybe once more.

The sermon on the mount - christian
Quran - Islamic
Faiths of our people - Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, baha'i practitioners, shinto practitioners, sikhs...

He was speaking in general. Tolerance and love is a good thing, right?

[JoDuncan]

No Jo, I believe that means the white is OUT after Labor Day....how embarrassing for you! :wink:


Don't you know you're not supposed to wear white after "labor" day?

:p :D

I don't even know what it is!

[JCM]

I don't even know what it is!

Is to do with work. I am not surprised you don't know what it is, college boy :D

[Paikea]

stupid is to call a "war hero" a guy that has killed a considerable amount of enemies in war and live to tell his story.
stupid is to call an "airforce veteran" a guy that has taken down more than 5 enemy planes. thats stupid.
how twisted is our world that we give medals to those who kills, instead of those that has never murdered anyone???I find your righteous indignation refreshing, and agree with your more basic points about war, but the rest of it seems over the top. It is good to be passionate in your beliefs, provided you know something of which you are talking about.

No, I have not served in the US military because I am too color blind, and allergic to peanuts (and Superman thought he had a problem...) both of which disqualified me. My family has served their country since before it was a country, and the bodies of it's veterans are buried in what was our family farm. You may look that little tidbit up and gain some understanding of my perspectives on duty, honor and the willingness to die for a belief.

As to the above statements, I find them typical of brash and idealistic young men and women who read a lot, but know not so much.

We call a "war hero" someone who has been able to do what needed to be done to protect his fellow soldiers or innocent lives. We call the people who count their kills as trophies "psycopaths".

An "Ace" is an aviator who has destroyed the machines of men who were equally intent on killing him.

We give no medals based on body counts, nor do we reward murder. War is ugly, war is to be avoided at all costs and in war bad things happen that we should be repolused and disgusted by. To insinuate that an intentional policy exists to reward incidents like those you show in your first post is wrong, and insulting to the people who do serve honorably and to the best of their ability.

[satsumaruma]

Hmm.

I would add to Perrys' excellent observation that the word hero is branded about too much. All too often I read about a footballing 'hero' or 'legend' etc etc. Often what such 'hero's' do is earn a lot of money for their sporting prowess - not against them earning money just not sure it is heroic.

Consider then a soldier who goes to war. He/she goes not because he has any personal axe to grind; he/she does it because he/she is trained to do this and is honour bound to serve his/her country as best he/she can.

Do they kill another human being for fun? Usually not. They do it because it is kill or be killed. they are not in a position to actively question the rights and wrongs of why they are there in the first place they are trying to stay alive. And they are trying to keep their comrades alive, their friends alive and those that they are told to protect alive.

Try to imagine how horrific it must be to see someone who you know well have their face ripped apart. No really fucking try. And then imagine how that must feel like. Try to imagine being so very very VERY scared and so very very VERY tired.
And then for some reason, you cannot explain why, you do something extraordinary to save the lives of those who are your friends, your comrades and those you have been sent to protect. Yes you will have killed. Possibly a great many. But you will have done so to save lives. And this to me is heroic. To put ones own life in mortal danger to try to help others.

It really grips my shit to hear people who have never ever faced such danger gripe about those who live with it daily. Grow up. War is not nice. People who do not deserve death die. But this forum will not change it.

I'll stop now because I can feel apoplexy rising.

[Inner_Silence]

Inner Silence...I respect your belief that any war is wrong. You won't find too many people who won't agree with that basic statement. BUT....to say that people don't fight wars for ideas or ethics or morals is so completly wrong that it totally boggles my mind.

as you said yourself, this is a matter of points of view. in MY OWN point of view as i said from the beginning i think that today those values are just a myth of something that once existed implanted in peoples minds trough media to keep them calm and make them avoid thinking. today the so called "values" only work as a "make believe" for people to avoid a population to think about how vain and superficial are their lives and keep them in the sistem buying things and consuming money. but thats just a point of view. many would really and deeply believe in democracy and freedom and all this stuff and thats ok. personally, i dont.
this is another personal thing, thinking too much about stuff isnt the best either you know, personally, the more i think about this stuff, the more i study, the more i know, the more i realize how vain and superficial is all this shitty world. and really makes you feel a void inside that cannot be filled either by more study, girlfriend, kendo, family or whatever. but thats another personal stuff. my intention is NOT to talk about personal feelings, my intention is toput myself as an example that living a life in a different way than military life isnt precisely a walk in a green field. im aiming to the point that as you said, our different lifestyles determine the way we are. there is no way i could understand you becouse i dont live in the world you live, bu thats also "vice versa".

please do not be offended by this, but again is a sort of point of view. many times i had conversations with my university mates in this colour:
"maybe i should have joined military or i should have been a professional sportman instead of study, life would be much easy"
thats becouse from our point of view we wouldnt been under pressure everyday, lacking of sleep, having all sort of stress related deseases... in my university there are even been guys that had commited suicide becouse they couldnt keep the study rithm. besides we fight our own wars, many mates that i know have been tortured by policemen and military in protesting for civil rights. abour 3 years ago a guy even ended dead by police shootings, there is an old video, like about 20 years ago of a military putting diesel in a guy and setting him on fire becouse he was in "riot". personally ive seen with my own eyes how policeman start the agression against people in order to create caos make people to respond and making an excuse to start violence and torture. thats not on the news. BUT WE STILL STAND UP AND FIGHT! the diferrence is that we do it without the killing part.

but in the other hand a military guy would say "maybe i should have study, it would be easyer than this. the only thing that matters to an student is to study, thats so easy..."... exactly the same.



I would just respectfully ask you not to come near me and say something like that.....

you missed the methaphorical part...
it is funny, in a hypotetic situation i could get my ass kicked not becouse i said something right or wrong and someone could feel offended. i could get my ass kicked becouse the one that listened didnt understand what i was sayng... but i understand that, and if you get offended that wasnt my intention. it just was a methaphorical phrase with some meaning, maybe i could use something a litlle les rhetoric and a little more euphemistic from now on it is all "apples and peaches" as we say here.




You don't get it. If you've never defended anything in your life with vigor with injury or death possible, you'll never get it. They don't give medals for killilng people. They give medals for acts of valor, courage, service, for contributions to your nation. To defend your nation. Tell you what, you go over there and sit in the corner and talk your pacifist stuff and when some terrorists come to kill your family, let a military member come and save them.

war hero (http://www.marchforjustice.com/31e4fef0.jpg)
war hero (http://www.marchforjustice.com/4765df20.jpg)
war hero (http://www.marchforjustice.com/237dc440.jpg)
war hero (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knvC1LXgX4c)
war hero (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en8yqVxuT-U)
war hero (http://lapoesiaelospirito.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/victor_jara.jpg)
war hero (http://www.geocities.com/ganesha_gate/gandhi2.jpg)
war hero (http://www.amnistiainternacional.org/revista/rev82/fotos/mandela.jpg)



I'm afraid there will come a day when NO ONE in the Senate or House will have any military experience and they won't have a clue about how the military actually functions. Though perhaps we've already reached this point...Sad....


i hope one day NO ONE in the world will have military experience. maybe then we will talk about REAL freedom. but until then, i hope that noone in the senate have military experience. military has nothing to do with politics. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMnno35QPL0)



Two different situations. 9/11 happened and we found out that Al Qaida was behind it. So we went on a hunt for Al Qaida terrorist.
why is that 70% of ametican population thinks that saddam has somehow responsability in 9/11 ??? hummmmm
besides nowadays we all know that the theory of this whole terrorist mayhem apolalypse is sinking by his own wheight.
ever wonder why building seven collapsed, even thou no plane had crashed againt it?
ever wonder why the plane in pentagon magically vaporized due of the heat of the crash??? (anyone that has estudied basic physics and material resistance can tell you that this is not possible)
ever wonder why this war is taking SO much time?
(and countless other questions)


the world was watching Iraq for hints that they had Weapons of Mass Destruction.
thats strange. a country tah DOES has weapons of mass destruction, and HAS used them among innocent civilian killing thousands of innocent people and still has this kind of weapon, invades another country and kills lots of people becouse there is a suspicious but never proved empirically posibility that they could have it too and even they might use them, so the solution is invasion.
i remember an old friend that used to say "i am right in what im doing and sayng only becouse it is ME who is doing and sayig it, otherwise it would be wrong"


The UN gave them ultimatum after ultimatum. They ignored them all. They ignored one too many and that led to the invasion.

the UN also said the US to not invade Iraq, but US ignored them. using this same train of thought, anyone would logically ask
why is that the US havent being invaded yet?

i mean, usigh this same arguments i think that US es more dangerous than Iraq.
(im not sayng that it is, this is only to make graphical that this arguments really makes no sense at all, becouse they are contradictory within themselves)

all the complexities of the situation.
i dont see the complexities yet, in fact, abstractically speaking, the situation is very simple.


Inner Silence, you and I just disagree too much so we should probably just, as they say, agree to disagree.
i agree with that.
this is not a "debate", i mean, this discussion isnt to find an argument to see who is right or wrong. it is not like we are discussing if 2+2 equals 4 or not. in other words there is not a "truth", just different point of views.

again as i said, if you (or someone) get offended by something i said, it isnt my intention to do so at all. i think that our differences in each lifestyles had made ourself different paradigms in life, wich makes impossible the understanding.
but dont get me wrong, i really got in high esteem military and police officers, in fact i have close friends that happens to be police officers, or former police officers. in fact im a student and i was lucky to dont get my ass kicked by police in a protest for civil rights. ironically years later i ended up to be a close friend of a former policeman that kicked students butts... eitherway they are good men otherwise wouldnt be friend of mine. im not against military , i mean, not against the people (at least not most of them), im against ACTS of war.
----------------------------------------------

another thread:




No, I have not served in the US military because I am too color blind, and allergic to peanuts (and Superman thought he had a problem...) both of which disqualified me.

i thought you where indeed in military, i was going to ask you the same thing that you ask me, if i had been in the situation that i had to defend what i say. well many times.
i was gonna askyou if you ever have killed someone. but now that question makes no sense

[Inner_Silence]

sorry about my einglish... isnt precisely my major..

[Inner_Silence]

Is to do with work. I am not surprised you don't know what it is, college boy :D

got a good laugh out of it...

COLLEGE BOY HAHAHAHHAHAHA
hey! there are also some days that we study!!

(sorry about my off topic commentary)

[Paikea]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dukboy123

No, I have not served in the US military because I am too color blind, and allergic to peanuts (and Superman thought he had a problem...) both of which disqualified me.

Ah, no that was me.



i thought you where indeed in military, i was going to ask you the same thing that you ask me, if i had been in the situation that i had to defend what i say. well many times.
i was gonna askyou if you ever have killed someone. but now that question makes no sense

Inner_silence, why would my having killed anyone be relevant? My point is that you seem to be making sweeping generalizations from the viewpoint and experience level of a (please forgive the term) "college boy". My point is that you do not have the experience to understand the motivations and values of the people you are claiming to speak for. You've got the idealist point of view in your head that we all get in school, then comes the ugly, inconvenient and disturbing reality that is actual experience.

I have known and worked with men who, in the course of their duty had taken lives. None of them, NOT ONE, was a glory-mongering murderer as you have implied they must be.

Now you're adding a healthy doses of thoroughly debunked conspiracy theories to the mix, further eroding the strength of your arguments. Calm down, think a bit.

Do not impose your values on others as though they are better or more correct. Doing so is the basis for the problems the world is in today.

[Theodore]

Inner_silence, why would my having killed anyone be relevant? My point is that you seem to be making sweeping generalizations from the viewpoint and experience level of a (please forgive the term) "college boy". My point is that you do not have the experience to understand the motivations and values of the people you are claiming to speak for. You've got the idealist point of view in your head that we all get in school, then comes the ugly, inconvenient and disturbing reality that is actual experience.

Sophomore? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students#Second_year)

[Paikea]

Sophomore? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students#Second_year)Likely, but hey - we've all been there once. You should've seen my hair...

[Inner_Silence]

AD HOMINEM detected
it means "at human" or "to the person" in latin, it is a common deceit, when conversation turns away fron the argument itself and start attacking the speaker.

we where so good until now, but i see that this conversation has lost its point
but if you want to talk about this NOTICE THAT THIS IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SUBJECT, lets talk about it.

i think that the speech "college students dont know nothing of life, becouse they study and they are not yet inserted in the so called real world" is stupid.
it is as stupid as if i would say "i cant argue with people outside university becouse in general 75% of the population cant even read properly, then it is a waste of time trying to make them think logically..."

arguments are turn with arguments inside the frames of logic, thats the way it works. speech is one subject, speaker is another one

[Kenzan]

Have you ever noticed that no one ever thinks war is a good idea whilst having an orgasm?
:D

[Paikea]

AD HOMINEM detected
it means "at human" or "to the person" in latin, it is a common deceit, when conversation turns away fron the argument itself and start attacking the speaker.

we where so good until now, but i see that this conversation has lost its point
but if you want to talk about this NOTICE THAT THIS IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SUBJECT, lets talk about it.

i think that the speech "college students dont know nothing of life, becouse they study and they are not yet inserted in the so called real world" is stupid.
it is as stupid as if i would say "i cant argue with people outside university becouse in general 75% of the population cant even read properly, then it is a waste of time trying to make them think logically..."

arguments are turn with arguments inside the frames of logic, thats the way it works. speech is one subject, speaker is another oneYou are correct and to the degree that I have implied that all college students are ignorant of reality, I apologize.

However, if you go back and read your posts throughout this thread, do you really want to get into a pissing battle over the appropriate use of logic?

[Kapplow]

Somebody give Paikea some rep for me.

[Inner_Silence]

i dont give a damn, be my guest.

[Kenzan]

America wants to spread democracy by force, not very democratic, is it?

I think you are confusing "America" with "a tiny few rich conservative old white scum-buckets."

I do not remember casting any vote for any war.
Come to think of it, I don't remember voting for Bush.
Then again, most of America didn't either...


I think at this point, if Americans weren't so sure they'd be gunned down by the Army, pretty much every 200 million of us'd just get up tomorrow morning and start walking towards the White house. Nothing fancy..just walking...with intent eyes....towards Washington.

Pretty much nothing short of that is going to end this farce we've been enduring for the past 8 years..
:(

[Paikea]

i dont give a damn, be my guest.Clearly, you have an opinion and point of view that you care about. I do respect that. I'm sorry that you have chosen to express that opinion peppered with biased information, insults, vague conspiracies and grand generalizations.

I'm saddened by your assertions that things many of us here at KW hold as core values are completely lacking in the world, that you despair of finding those values at work in your sphere of existence, and especially the belief that the people who serve our respective countries in the military are war-mongering killers.

Your education isn't worth spit unless it's teaching you to question everything presented to you as truth.

If you guys want to send rep, send some to Inner_silence, at least he does not share the apathy that seems to be so common among the under-40's these days.

[ahmed61086]

I think you are confusing "America" with "a tiny few rich conservative old white scum-buckets."

I do not remember casting any vote for any war.
Come to think of it, I don't remember voting for Bush.
Then again, most of America didn't either...


I think at this point, if Americans weren't so sure they'd be gunned down by the Army, pretty much every 200 million of us'd just get up tomorrow morning and start walking towards the White house. Nothing fancy..just walking...with intent eyes....towards Washington.

Pretty much nothing short of that is going to end this farce we've been enduring for the past 8 years..
:(

I should have specified. I know the american people dont do it, just those dirty scumbags in washington.

[Inner_Silence]

extrangely, im not sure how come a person can get a complete personal psycological profile of someone else only by reading a couple of posts.
personally i am close friend of army man, in fact one of my close friends wasa former pilicemen and he had to deal with many things that are way beyond my own ideas, but still he is a good man and my friend even thou i dont understand him... so its not the way you said. but still its is true that im a little bit prejudiced about military man... but yet again thats not again the subject...

[neko kenshi]

... the apathy that seems to be so common among the under-40's these days.


Hmm, always seemed the other way around to me.

[Big One]

And by 40s, you get dirty. By 50s, you get grumpy. By 60, you get cranky. By 70s, you get smelly.

:)

Nothing new.

[Kendoka_Han]

Read what you just said again, please.

and maybe once more.

The sermon on the mount - christian
Quran - Islamic
Faiths of our people - Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, baha'i practitioners, shinto practitioners, sikhs...

He was speaking in general. Tolerance and love is a good thing, right?

I have, and isnt it funny that "Oh all religions can lead to the same God...."?

Blasphemy.

I uploaded the 3 min video of Bush if anyone wants a recap

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89e7lswS6BI

[neko kenshi]

Quit hating people, your god commands against it.

[ahmed61086]

I have, and isnt it funny that "Oh all religions can lead to the same God...."?

Blasphemy.

I uploaded the 3 min video of Bush if anyone wants a recap

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89e7lswS6BI

We allready told you how much we love hearing your relgious point of view *cough*.

We also love hearing you talk about what you think is blasphemy *cough*.

Keep it up *cough*.

[ahmed61086]

Quit hating people, your god commands against it.

Yeh, jesus loves everyone, except non-christians according to Hansolo, and according to hansolo, im going to burn in hell. :laugh:

[neko kenshi]

So is anyone who's parents aren't married, and so is anyone who had an accident harming their manhood. Or so says the bible.

[neko kenshi]

Oh, and of course jesus only loves certain christians. Bush doesn't count (even though his christianity is often held against him. Wasn't he the one supporting intelligent design being taught in schools?)

[Inner_Silence]

(god don know that bush exists becouse he, like otaku and emo guys, has no soul.)


on topic please!

[Ignatz]

. . on topic please!. . .

It is on topic. Open your mind and you will see.

You are very idealistic and that is wonderful. You will find though, as many older people have, that idealistic people often tend to be very close minded. Unwilling or unable to see the forest for the trees. I broke all of the commandments before I was old enough to buy a beer and not a day goes by that I don't wish things were different. I wish I had the courage of a Ghandi but I don't. I hope you can resist your government if they try to make you do these things but I will tell you this, look back and read the quote I posted from Frederck Douglass. If you want crops, you have to be prepared to plow the ground. If you want rain, don't complain about the thunder and lightnening.

Just make sure you are not fooled, especially by yourself.

Many people signed onto the military after 9/11 because going after al quaeda was and is right. They are terrible examples of human beings and the world will be a better place if they are not here. Unfortunately these people were tricked by our own government into going to Iraq and therein lies the rub.

Don't take yourself too seriously.

[KO1598]

I think you are confusing "America" with "a tiny few rich conservative old white scum-buckets."

Ummm let me just ask you one thing, would you rather have America spread Democracy by force and sleep comfortably at night then come and well complain about the wars on this forums? Or have Amereica never spread Democracy by force and have 5 countries like North Korea say they have nukes (even if they don't) and perhaps even foreign influence in America. Lets see how many countries would be Communist if not for America. You may not think it but really it comes down whether you believe, "Better them than Me" Have you felt safe in America? (Except for the small airplane scare during 9/11 and Anthrax mail) I have, I don't sleep with my eyes open. I have power and A/C. Ok forgive me if I extaggerate the circumstancces slightly but do you get my point.


And why "white scum buckets?" Not everyone in the Government is white. Don't blame just white rich people, all the ethnicities make up America and all must takes responsibility for this countries actions.

[Kenzan]

Ummm let me just ask you one thing, would you rather have America spread Democracy by force and sleep comfortably at night then come and well complain about the wars on this forums?

Aside from the fact that historically America is reaping the causes made by ignorant, foolish, selfish, opportunistic and racist past and present foreign Government policy in the Middle East, one needs only to pick up a (Non-American-School) History book to see why Terrorism in it's current form in that region even exists.

In any case, I'd rather have my Government not try to spread Democracy at all. We have too many issues here that need more attention than going around spreading Democracy as if Mcarthyism were a valid philosophical platform.

Democracy is a right earned by the self determination of the people whom it serves. Freedom cannot be simply "given" to any society. It must be wanted and desired so badly by it's own people that no other alternative is deemed acceptable. I wonder if it ever occurred to anyone in Washington that many human societies simply do not "want" or "need" or, at the risk of sounding superior, are "ready" for Democracy?



Lets see how many countries would be Communist if not for America.


Seems to me that quite a few became so anyway despite America's best and heinously costly efforts to meddle in their affairs.



You may not think it but really it comes down whether you believe, "Better them than Me" Have you felt safe in America? (Except for the small airplane scare during 9/11 and Anthrax mail) I have, I don't sleep with my eyes open. I have power and A/C. Ok forgive me if I extaggerate the circumstancces slightly but do you get my point.


"Safety" in America has been, and always will be an illusion.
We are no less vulnerable to attack now then we were prior to 9-11.
The only thing that has changed now are the potential attack delivery systems.
Make no mistake, as long as America adopts the same sort of policies it has now, which, by and large are merely face-paint for capitol ventures of a few influential corporations, America will be attacked again, and again.



And why "white scum buckets?" Not everyone in the Government is white. Don't blame just white rich people, all the ethnicities make up America and all must takes responsibility for this countries actions.

The vast and overwhelming fact is, that the majority of people in power in America are Politicians who, not coincidentally, happen to be male, white, rich, out of touch, self-serving hypocritical scuzzballs who use their positions to enrich themselves and their cohorts in the name of Democracy.

The proof to this is dizzying in scope and blatancy. Just read any Newspaper these days, and it's gotten so bad that it doesn't matter which political slant it's geared toward, it's pretty much all saying the same thing.

The problem is as self evident as the sky is blue.

The bottom line?
War only benefits the people who start them, and the reasons are almost always related to money.

[dukboy123]

Well, let me first apologize to this forum for my little rant yesterday towards Inner Silence. I think I went a bit too far. So Inner Silence, I apologize for that. We are all espousing our views under the umbrella of Kendo brotherhood are we not?

Anyway, Inner Silence, you wanted to ask me a question? Let me first tell you that in carrying out my duties in Desert Storm, I did not directly kill anyone. That is to say, I did not pull a trigger or push a button that resulted in a weapon being fired. However, as much it grieves me to say, I was, too many times, a key cog in processes that resulted in many men dying.

Do I think about that everyday? No I don't. Do I think about it often? Yes I do. What do I think about it? It depends. Some days I think of their families, missing their sons, fathers, husbands, cousins... It makes me extremely, extremely sad, which is probably too mild a word for my emotions but I don't know how to describe what I feel very adequately. But most days I remember that those folks were trying to kill American soldiers and that I was doing my duty to protect those soldiers. I was doing what I had sworn to do, to defend and fight for my country. And for me, during the war, "defend and fight for my country", meant fighting and protecting my fellow crewman and friends aboard the aircraft with me.

But Inner Silence, if there is one thing I would really, really, really, like to impress upon you is that words like "democracy" and "freedom" are NOT just concepts floating around in the air, blown away by the onrushing crunch of modern globalization. They are real, day-to-day, experiences. Inner Silence, do you not wake up every morning, shower, eat breakfast, go to school? Do you not chat with your friends over lunch, peruse your email, post to Kendo World? You know what? There are MILLIONS around the world who can't do stuff like that. As a matter of fact, China has just introduced new measures to monitor what their citizens are seeing and posting to the internet. So it's BILLIONS who can't do what you take for granted every day. I certainly couldn't post something like this in China that's for sure.

And I forgot who mentioned that we shouldn't even HAVE a military, but that is, unfortunately, a very idealistic and wholly misguided notion. Human nature is what it is and there will always be disagreements. There will always be maniacs, despots, tyrants, intent on carving out their own niche in history. And there will always be a need to trounce these rascals.

"We make war so that we may live in peace.". Some old Roman guy.

[Paikea]

I have, and isnt it funny that "Oh all religions can lead to the same God...."?

Blasphemy.

I uploaded the 3 min video of Bush if anyone wants a recap

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89e7lswS6BIYou are familiar with the phrase "one trick pony"? Have you got anything to say that didn't come from some evangelical thought-control book?

[Paikea]

Yeh, jesus loves everyone, except non-christians according to Hansolo, and according to hansolo, im going to burn in hell. :laugh:"I know what God likes" - Pat McCurdy. Viva Madison, WI!

[bullet08]

"I know what God likes"

single malt scotch and cuban cigars.. along with large quantity of Guinness and hot girls?

pete

[kartoffelngeist]

single malt scotch and cuban cigars.. along with large quantity of Guinness and hot girls?

pete

If God made man in his image, then yes, I'd imagine so...

[Inner_Silence]

You are very idealistic and that is wonderful. You will find though, as many older people have, that idealistic people often tend to be very close minded. .

you know what?
AGAIN ignatz makes me give another round of thinking about stuff. it might not make me change the way i think, but i also think you are right. idealistic people tend to me close minded.

[Paikea]

single malt scotch and cuban cigars.. along with large quantity of Guinness and hot girls?

peteGod - Pat McCurdy

God loves capitalists more than communists.
God loves fundamentalists more than Methodists.
God loves Americans more than Canadians.
God loves nuclear power
God loves the stars and stripes.
God loves Handi-Wipes, thinks they’re so convenient.
God knows where the yellow went.
God has a VCR.
John Wayne is the biggest star, up in the Ivory Tower.
God doesn’t love the Pope.
God likes Pepsi more than Coke.
He won’t drive a Subaru or a BMW.
God packs a magnum for protection not for fun.
God says make my day.
God votes Republican, the only way to get things done.
God loves makin’ dough, don’t like payin’ taxes though.
God loves Disneyland, loves a man to be a man.
God loves the USA.
God loves democracy more than aristocracy.
God hates Iraqians, Russians, Jews and Libyans
(And anyone else who isn’t a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant).
God is good, God is great.
God don’t like the welfare state
(He hates Sweden).
God drives a Chevrolet.
God made petroleum to make my Winnebago run.
God made plants and trees.
We can waste them as we please.
God loves the strong and tall.
God loves white folks most of all.
God loves the USA.
God loves the USA.
God loves the USA.
He told me personally, and I know what God likes

[Inner_Silence]

...i forgot to spread the rep...

FINALLY I KNOW WHAT THIS IS!
dont make a joke out of it, but even I find it funny

[joekc6nlx]

I think at this point, if Americans weren't so sure they'd be gunned down by the Army, pretty much every 200 million of us'd just get up tomorrow morning and start walking towards the White house. Nothing fancy..just walking...with intent eyes....towards Washington.

Pretty much nothing short of that is going to end this farce we've been enduring for the past 8 years..
:(

Huh? What makes you say that the U.S. military would turn against its own citizens? Even if the President of the United States gave that order, it would not be obeyed. When we swear our oaths of enlistment, it is to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. The Uniform Code of Military Justice provides an article (Article 86) "Failure to obey a lawful order." An order from anyone that would result in our military turning against its citizens is not a lawful order, and any member of the military with any sense would already know that, and would not obey it. Any member of the military who DID obey that order would probably be either restrained or gunned down by the people who have more sense.

The worst thing a government can do is to turn its military against its citizenry. I still remember Tienamen Square - even though it "never happened".

[ahmed61086]

Huh? What makes you say that the U.S. military would turn against its own citizens? Even if the President of the United States gave that order, it would not be obeyed. When we swear our oaths of enlistment, it is to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. The Uniform Code of Military Justice provides an article (Article 86) "Failure to obey a lawful order." An order from anyone that would result in our military turning against its citizens is not a lawful order, and any member of the military with any sense would already know that, and would not obey it. Any member of the military who DID obey that order would probably be either restrained or gunned down by the people who have more sense.

The worst thing a government can do is to turn its military against its citizenry. I still remember Tienamen Square - even though it "never happened".

If the president said that there were some of its citizens who were enemies, I wouldn't see any of the soldiers disobeying whatever orders were given to them. If the President declares Martial law, then what Kenzan said would happen. Actually, if you are up to date with some of th executive orders Bush has signed and created, he is given dictator like power if he declares an emergency. If the U.S. was attacked again, he would be able to declare an emergency, and do whatever he wished. Declare Martial law, ect.

[Kapplow]

Huh? What makes you say that the U.S. military would turn against its own citizens? Even if the President of the United States gave that order, it would not be obeyed. When we swear our oaths of enlistment, it is to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. The Uniform Code of Military Justice provides an article (Article 86) "Failure to obey a lawful order." An order from anyone that would result in our military turning against its citizens is not a lawful order, and any member of the military with any sense would already know that, and would not obey it. Any member of the military who DID obey that order would probably be either restrained or gunned down by the people who have more sense.

The worst thing a government can do is to turn its military against its citizenry. I still remember Tienamen Square - even though it "never happened".


Somebody give Joe some +rep for me.

[JSchmidt]

Huh? What makes you say that the U.S. military would turn against its own citizens?

The worst thing a government can do is to turn its military against its citizenry. I still remember Tienamen Square - even though it "never happened".

Name escapes me, but what about when the N.G. opened fire on some of the civil rights demonstrators?

[Kenzan]

The worst thing a government can do is to turn its military against its citizenry. I still remember Tienamen Square - even though it "never happened".

It wouldn't be in the sense of "Ok men, kill them civilians."
It would explained to them that the citizens whom are advancing upon you are terrorists.

Above all, as an ex military man myself, I can honestly say that by ans large, soldiers are the easiest to brainwash.

[Sparv]

Name escapes me, but what about when the N.G. opened fire on some of the civil rights demonstrators?

Here you are: Kent State shootings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings)
link Provided by bullet08 here (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?p=253074#post253074), in a thread started by Ignatz.

[Paikea]

Name escapes me, but what about when the N.G. opened fire on some of the civil rights demonstrators?A case of poor control of soldiers, poor communications and poor judgment. Unlike Tienanmen square, there was (probably) no command-authority decision to fire on the students.

A lot of people got very stupid all at the same time.

Joe, I have to disagree with you though. I believe that under the right circumstances, the Army or Marines could be coerced or misled into doing exactly that. Think about rioting after a major disaster or terrorist attack. Things came very close to that in New Orleans.

[joekc6nlx]

Well, after having spent 22 years in the service of my country, I found a lot of people who felt that whatever orders the President gave were just fine, because it was the President. Never mind whether the orders are legal, lawful, legitimate, or whatever. Those people are NOT the majority of people that I served with in the military.

Too many people have the impression that we who served in the military are stupid, easily brainwashed, cannot think for ourselves, and require a nursemaid 24/7. The men and women that I served with by and large are intelligent, and they do know how to think, how to differentiate between right and wrong, and when to obey or disobey an order.

The National Guard detachment on the campus at Kent State was poorly led, aside from the fact that they were issued live ammunition, which was clearly a violation of state law. Only law enforcement personnel are allowed to have live ammunition. The National Guard is not a law enforcement detachment, they have no police powers, and they certainly do not have the authority to open fire on their own citizenry, unless fired upon first. Okay, the rocks, the tear gas grenades, etc., notwithstanding, there were no lethal weapons fired at the Guardsmen. The rioters were moving away from the main area where they had been protesting, but unfortunately, the Guard detachment that was causing them to move had forced them into a dead end, right up against another detachment of Guard. This second detachment claims that the protestors were "attacking" them because they were running toward them, when in fact, they were trying to get away from the first detachment. Nobody knows (at least, they aren't telling) who either gave the order to lock and load, and open fire, or who fired the first shot. But once someone opened fire, they all did, including the officer in charge of that detachment. The pictures from the AP clearly show rifles in the act of being fired, as well as one Guardsman holding a .45ACP pointed at the protestors.

The men and women of the United States military are dedicated to the service of the country, not to the President. We swear our oaths to the Constitution, not to some person in the Oval Office, or even to the title that that person holds.

This country has plenty of checks and balances that would prevent the President from becoming a dictator, aside from the fact that we have a military, we have a Congress, a Supreme Court. Congress controls the purse strings, the President cannot go against the Constitution, there is no provision for him to do so. He can write all the executive orders he wants, but if they violate the Constitution, they are invalid and cannot be enforced.

Granted, the vast majority of people in the U.S. don't want to have to make hard decisions, because it means they have to think about the consequences. We in the military do not like to make those hard decisions, either, but we also know the consequences.

With over 250 million people in this country who have lived in one of the most libertarian societies in the world, do you think we'd knuckle under to any President who was knuckle-headed enough to try to make himself a dictator?

[Kenzan]

This country has plenty of checks and balances that would prevent the President from becoming a dictator, aside from the fact that we have a military, we have a Congress, a Supreme Court.


And yet he's managed to get away with dozens of dozens of illegal acts throughout his administration.

Why is he still President?




The President cannot go against the Constitution, there is no provision for him to do so. He can write all the executive orders he wants, but if they violate the Constitution, they are invalid and cannot be enforced.


And yet, he has, and they are.



Granted, the vast majority of people in the U.S. don't want to have to make hard decisions, because it means they have to think about the consequences. We in the military do not like to make those hard decisions, either, but we also know the consequences.
dictator?

So, are you are saying that the American people are incapable of making hard decisions, and knowing what the consequences are, and that the Military knows better?
Apparently so thinks this administration.

I apologize if it seems that I'm tossing your words at you, but isn't that Militarism?



With over 250 million people in this country who have lived in one of the most libertarian societies in the world, do you think we'd knuckle under to any President who was knuckle-headed enough to try to make himself a dictator?

As of the last election, based on the actions of this president, especially during a crisis, the American people already have.

It has been said that the reasonable and rational have no enemies.

"If you are exacting with yourself while forgiving to others, then you will put enmity at a distance." -K'ung-fu-tzu

[Ignatz]

The guy who sets the parameters of the argument wins.

So bush/cheney substitute Iraq for terrorists.

They substitute reasonable questioning and dissent with disloyalty to the country and soldiers.

and the beat goes on

[dukboy123]

So, are you are saying that the American people are incapable of making hard decisions, and knowing what the consequences are, and that the Military knows better?
Apparently so thinks this administration.




I think maybe he meant, forgive me Joekc6nlx if I'm wrong, is that the American people ARE capable of making hard decisions, they just don't WANT to. And I personnally think this is proven by our shamefully, embarrassingly, low voter turnouts.

I do however, think the Military does know better how to conduct a war than our civilian leaders. The commanders on the ground know how to make hard decisions and are expected to do so.

[Ignatz]

. . .
I do however, think the Military does know better how to conduct a war than our civilian leaders. The commanders on the ground know how to make hard decisions and are expected to do so.

Our country has decided that control of the military will be in civilian hands. That is the law and it is a good law. We don't need to have an independant military nor do we need to have a police force that is not subject to civilian control.
Earnest Medina sure knew how to make the hard decisions. He also knew how to deny making them too.
The day when we cannot question what the military does will be one of the last days of america as we know it.

[dukboy123]

Our country has decided that control of the military will be in civilian hands. That is the law and it is a good law. We don't need to have an independant military nor do we need to have a police force that is not subject to civilian control.
Earnest Medina sure knew how to make the hard decisions. He also knew how to deny making them too.
The day when we cannot question what the military does will be one of the last days of america as we know it.

I agree with all of that. I think we are talking about two different things. Perhaps I misunderstood the intent of the previous posts. The only caveat I would add to that however is that I truly wish that our civilian leadership really knew what it was like from a soldier's perspective.

Forgive my ignorance, but who is Earnest Medina?

[dukboy123]

Earnest Medina...aaah..Ok, I got it. So sad. So tragic.

[Kenzan]

I wish civilian leadership really knew what it was like from a soldier's perspective.


Me too.
Perhaps then they might think twice about sending them in the first place.
But then there's the money.....

[Kenzan]

It really grips my shit to hear people who have never ever faced such danger gripe about those who live with it daily. Grow up. War is not nice. People who do not deserve death die. But this forum will not change it.



Damn kids today! All spoiled an weak! Why, When I was a boy, it was mandatory to stomp a man's guts out before graduating high school! we also wore Onions tied to our belt...It was the fashion at the time... (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7968427484082519606&q=simpsons+war&total=857&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1)

:D

[satsumaruma]

Damn kids today! All spoiled an weak! Why, When I was a boy, it was mandatory to stomp a man's guts out before graduating high school! ...[/URL]

:D

You say that like it is a bad thing:D

[Owen]

bush can and most likely will become all-powerful if he declares a state of emergency. and if people are marching to the white house he can say that they are a terroristic threat and have them severely injured/killed.
congress cant stop it...



unless they impeach.

[Paikea]

bush can and most likely will become all-powerful if he declares a state of emergency. and if people are marching to the white house he can say that they are a terroristic threat and have them severely injured/killed.
congress cant stop it...



unless they impeach.Owen, here is a dime (adjusted for inflation to $0.25). Call your mother, and tell her that there is very little chance of your becoming a lawyer.

[Owen]

no, there is absolutely no chance of me becoming a lawyer.

[Paikea]

no, there is absolutely no chance of me becoming a lawyer.My John Houseman imitation is completely lost on you, isn't it?

[Owen]

yes. i dont even know who john houseman is.

[joekc6nlx]

1) What are the "illegal" acts that the President has committed? Please be specific, as I am not sure what constitutes an illegal act in your opinion.

2) I am saying that the people of the United States ARE capable of making hard decisions, but that it is so much easier to leave it to someone else. Thinking takes a lot of time and energy, time and energy that is diverted away from such productive activities as watching moronic sitcoms on TV, playing video games, and doing absolutely nothing but complain when the government does something they don't like.

3) As Ignatz stated, there is a reason why the military is headed by a civilian. The military is there to provide national defense. It is also there to enforce this country's foreign policy. We are not a national police force, we do not exist to keep tabs on the people of this country. If you believe that, I'd like to know where you got your facts. The President sets foreign policy, the Senate advises and grants consent (especially in the matter of treaties), and if diplomacy doesn't work, then, and only then does the President (mind you, a civilian), send in the troops.

4) In how many other countries are the military members allowed to vote for their Commander-in-Chief? Do the Royal Saudi forces get to? How about the Chinese? In the United States, we are allowed to vote for the candidate of our choice, we are not "told" how to vote, and we are not "interrogated" about how we voted. The average member of the military is probably no more intelligent than the average citizen on the street, nor is he better informed, but because of what the military member is committed in his heart to doing, he is probably more likely to vote responsibly.

5) Owen, you are in greater danger of being shot by your own police force than you are by the military of this country. Especially if you live in a major city.

6) The days of soldiers submitting to blind obedience went out a long time ago. The military took a page from the business world to find out how better to manage people. The only time blind obedience is called for is during an emergency, such as combat or if your ship is on fire and sinking. In such a case, you must act fast and without thinking, or else you stand a good chance of dying and so do a lot of other people.

7) If you all believe that we who served in the military are just a bunch of stupid, bloodthirsty goons, well, you're entitled to your opinions. After all, it's why we in the military served, so you could have the right to your opinions. But unless you served, you can't possibly understand the reasons why we did. It certainly isn't for the pay - we make less than a schoolteacher. It isn't for the time we get to spend separated from our families, sent to places where you could wake up dead. We served because we believe in the greater good for society, not for the greater good of one person (i.e., the President). Sound idealistic? Yeah, I guess so, but people have willingly died for ideals such as that.

"They who can give up essential liberty in order to purchase a little security deserve neither liberty nor security." Benjamin Franklin - 1775

"I care not what others may think, but as for me, Mr. President, give me liberty or give me death!" Patrick Henry - address to the First Continental Congress

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- US President Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt in an editorial to the Kansas City Star May 7, 1918

All of these things are reasons why I will defend the military members of this or any other nation which supports them as the true defenders of freedom. Those nations who believe that the only way to deal with other nations is by subduing them are wrong.

[joekc6nlx]

yes. i dont even know who john houseman is.

Go to your local video store and rent copies of 'The Paper Chase'....

[Paikea]

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- US President Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt in an editorial to the Kansas City Star May 7, 1918

Gotta love that Imperialist Bambi-killer. Probably has over-educated, potato-growing, gun-owning relatives scattered all over the place by now. :eek:

As far as the illegal actions go, I'd say that the jury is still out on things like indefinite detention without charge, interrogation tactics, warrantless wiretaps and the like. Also, the pretexts used to start this war seem to come mighty close to the definition of perjury if in fact testimony was given to Congress that was known to be false at the time. However, I think in the end any proven illegality of the President will have been Dick Cheney's idea.

[Kenzan]

1) What are the "illegal" acts that the President has committed? Please be specific, as I am not sure what constitutes an illegal act in your opinion.



Here's the short list. (http://www.netrootsmass.net/Hugh/Bush_list.html) Not all of them technically "illegal" per say, but morally reprehensible and devoid of any ethical conduct at worst. But even one Illegal act is unacceptable. Wire tapping and going to war without the approval of Congress based upon falsified information leaps to mind as classic examples.




We are not a national police force, we do not exist to keep tabs on the people of this country. If you believe that, I'd like to know where you got your facts.


No fly lists, Library book checks, warrant-less wire tapping, non-terrorist and lawfully registered political organizations placed on ""Terrorist Watch Lists", data-mining operations, just to name a few. The information on these activities is freely available.



The President sets foreign policy, the Senate advises and grants consent (especially in the matter of treaties), and if diplomacy doesn't work, then, and only then does the President (mind you, a civilian), send in the troops.


And why did exactly did Bush send troops to Iraq?
Oh yes...WOMDs.
So.....why is America still there?



7) If you all believe that we who served in the military are just a bunch of stupid, bloodthirsty goons, well, you're entitled to your opinions.


I never wrote that. Although now that you mention it, there seemed at least to me, a rather disproportionate amount of them around me when I was in.



After all, it's why we in the military served, so you could have the right to your opinions. But unless you served, you can't possibly understand the reasons why we did. It certainly isn't for the pay - we make less than a schoolteacher. It isn't for the time we get to spend separated from our families, sent to places where you could wake up dead. We served because we believe in the greater good for society, not for the greater good of one person (i.e., the President). Sound idealistic? Yeah, I guess so, but people have willingly died for ideals such as that.


In my experience, it was a rare person whom I met in the service that had any idea what "serving one's country" really meant, let alone living it. Almost without exception, the vast majority of people whom I served with were young, impressionable, and had more piss and vinegar than rational thought, and that included myself. Most of us were in it because we didn't have much else better in terms of opportunity at the time, or were seeking belonging, or wanted money for school, or life experience, or were looking to be some sort of Warrior. "Serving one's country" was the answer we would always give in order to look good to the chicks.



Those nations who believe that the only way to deal with other nations is by subduing them are wrong.

I agree with you.
That is why the American government; MY government, should listen to it's people and cease exactly this sort of behavior.

Here is a question for you:

What has the war in Iraq personally brought you in terms of benefit?

[Paikea]

What has the war in Iraq personally brought you in terms of benefit?A deeper understanding of the word "competence".

[Big One]

Here's the short list. (http://www.netrootsmass.net/Hugh/Bush_list.html) Not all and going to war without the approval of Congress based upon falsified information leaps to mind as classic examples.

So when CIA presented the fact to the President and he presented it to Congress, Senator Clinton, Senator Kerry, and others voted for the invasion. And now it became the president fault? Are you a Democrat?


No fly lists, Library book checks, warrant-less wire tapping, non-terrorist and lawfully registered political organizations placed on ""Terrorist Watch Lists", data-mining operations, just to name a few. The information on these activities is freely available.

So you don't like the "No fly list"? Would you happy to fly with Osama or his men?


And why did exactly did Bush send troops to Iraq?
Oh yes...WOMDs.
So.....why is America still there?

Go ahead, leave with your tail between your legs. It happened before, paper tiger.
Don't get me wrong, war is horrible but if those soldier sacrificed for an incomplete job, then what's the point. Let set political difference a side and support the troops so they can finish the job proudly. Give them what they need and don't use them as a political point.

[Ignatz]

3) As Ignatz stated, there is a reason why the military is headed by a civilian. . . .

The reason is because we don't trust a standing army. Unfortunately we are now developing into a private army -halliburton, blackstone etc. that answers to no one.

As for the rest of your post, with all due respect joe, you went in with your eyes wide open. It kind of jags me when it is suggested that somehow there should be some sort of extra homage paid to those who, for whatever reasons, decided to have a career in the military. Let's face facts. If we were in a real war, not something that we started for specious reasons, we would not have to rely on the volunteer military. There would be a draft and everyone would serve (well except cheney and bush and most of the cabinet).

In my day we didn't go into the military because of patriotism, we were forced in. Some people got the choice of the marines or jail of course, but look at what we have now. They are letting people in that couldn't get jobs as bag boy in the damn piggly wiggly.

I think there should be a two or three year requirement of national service, be it the military or scrubbing floors in cancer wards or building houses in New Orleans.

Oh, and while I'm at it, how about that little blonde haired all american jessica somebody who was touted as a great american hero when she was captured. How they made up a whole story about her heroism, all lies. Of course the chunky black girl might as well not even have been there. All part of the snow job (lies) by bush/cheney and the military.

I'm getting pissed now so, chiao.

[Paikea]

BP meds are in the fridge, tall bottles with "Corona" stenciled on them.

BTW - The blonde was Jessica Lynch, and the "chunky black girl" was Hopi, her name was Lori Piestewa. Truck drivers who got left in bad guy country without support. It's that "competence" word again.

[Kenzan]

Are you a Democrat?


What I am is an advocate of rational and reasonable thought and actions. Something that neither party has much of these days.



So you don't like the "No fly list"? Would you happy to fly with Osama or his men?


F.U.D., Nothing more. Personally, I can think of a dozen ways to circumnavigate I.D. checks, and If I can, you best bet that others who would wish us harm can too, Things such as No fly lists are logically flawed from concept, as chances are, "terrorists" wouldn't be using a real names anyway.




Go ahead, leave with your tail between your legs. It happened before, paper tiger.


Heaven forbid America is seen by the rest of the world as anything less than the God-like pillar of masterfulness that we are. Damn logical reasoning humanitarian responsibility I say! We..must...not...seem...weak!
:rolleyes:



Don't get me wrong, war is horrible but if those soldier sacrificed for an incomplete job, then what's the point.


The point is that they have died for nothing, and there is a small group of governmental scumbags who are directly responsible for that.

Do you honestly think that the the moment we "stabilize" Iraq and leave that it won't immediately break down again into chaos? You know it, and I know it, and the world knows it.


Let set political difference a side and support the troops so they can finish the job proudly.

What does "finish the job" look like.....exactly?
And how long is this supposed to take, and how much money am I to pay, and
what are we as a country going to reap as benefit from such an endeavor?

None of our "leaders" seems to be able to answer that one.

[Ignatz]

. . .Go ahead, leave with your tail between your legs. It happened before, paper tiger. . .

What an incredibly stupid thing to say. Just another case of misdirection and redirection also pushed recently by george "can i get out of this cushy job my daddy got for me" bush and dick "i've got more important things to do than serve in the military" cheney.

[Kendoka_Han]

It wouldn't be in the sense of "Ok men, kill them civilians."
It would explained to them that the citizens whom are advancing upon you are terrorists.

Above all, as an ex military man myself, I can honestly say that by ans large, soldiers are the easiest to brainwash.

Perfect sentence in this whole thread.

[Kenzan]

Perfect sentence in this whole thread.

~Or was it Australian teenagers that were the easiest to brainwash?

LOL

J/K

:D :silly:

In any case, to this very day, anytime someone says the word "Popsicle," I have the strangest urge to smash stuff.
:D

[Kendoka_Han]

Well, after having spent 22 years in the service of my country, I found a lot of people who felt that whatever orders the President gave were just fine, because it was the President. Never mind whether the orders are legal, lawful, legitimate, or whatever. Those people are NOT the majority of people that I served with in the military.

Too many people have the impression that we who served in the military are stupid, easily brainwashed, cannot think for ourselves, and require a nursemaid 24/7. The men and women that I served with by and large are intelligent, and they do know how to think, how to differentiate between right and wrong, and when to obey or disobey an order.

The National Guard detachment on the campus at Kent State was poorly led, aside from the fact that they were issued live ammunition, which was clearly a violation of state law. Only law enforcement personnel are allowed to have live ammunition. The National Guard is not a law enforcement detachment, they have no police powers, and they certainly do not have the authority to open fire on their own citizenry, unless fired upon first. Okay, the rocks, the tear gas grenades, etc., notwithstanding, there were no lethal weapons fired at the Guardsmen. The rioters were moving away from the main area where they had been protesting, but unfortunately, the Guard detachment that was causing them to move had forced them into a dead end, right up against another detachment of Guard. This second detachment claims that the protestors were "attacking" them because they were running toward them, when in fact, they were trying to get away from the first detachment. Nobody knows (at least, they aren't telling) who either gave the order to lock and load, and open fire, or who fired the first shot. But once someone opened fire, they all did, including the officer in charge of that detachment. The pictures from the AP clearly show rifles in the act of being fired, as well as one Guardsman holding a .45ACP pointed at the protestors.

The men and women of the United States military are dedicated to the service of the country, not to the President. We swear our oaths to the Constitution, not to some person in the Oval Office, or even to the title that that person holds.

This country has plenty of checks and balances that would prevent the President from becoming a dictator, aside from the fact that we have a military, we have a Congress, a Supreme Court. Congress controls the purse strings, the President cannot go against the Constitution, there is no provision for him to do so. He can write all the executive orders he wants, but if they violate the Constitution, they are invalid and cannot be enforced.

Granted, the vast majority of people in the U.S. don't want to have to make hard decisions, because it means they have to think about the consequences. We in the military do not like to make those hard decisions, either, but we also know the consequences.

With over 250 million people in this country who have lived in one of the most libertarian societies in the world, do you think we'd knuckle under to any President who was knuckle-headed enough to try to make himself a dictator?

And the world will come about with shock and horror when the Anti Christ is revealed. All the people who swear oaths to a country to "serve" in wars and great compliments will go to waste since they were and are fighting for nothing.

If I am to fight for a life, I will never take away a life for another life to live.

The Antichrist is already at work... but when Jesus comes he will be revealed! (2Thes.2:8).

2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming

[Kendoka_Han]

~Or was it Australian teenagers that were the easiest to brainwash?

LOL

J/K

:D :silly:

In any case, to this very day, anytime someone says the word "Popsicle," I have the strangest urge to smash stuff.
:D

LOL

I just realized I havent heard that word in a while :ko:

[Kenzan]

And the world will come about with shock and horror when the Anti Christ is revealed (http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/55/75/2fd5d250fca08b0be5a92010.L.jpg).



The Antichrist is already at work (http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3171/larryburgerking21ya.jpg)... but when Jesus comes he will be revealed! (http://www.alanhandle.com/surprise.jpg) (2Thes.2:8).


2:8 And then the lawless (http://delivery.viewimages.com/xv/71053867.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19396908EAF14430D35D591CE7150DA6529 818425AF45869ABB)one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow (http://www.martial-arts-hypnosis.com/images/throw.jpg) with the breath of his mouth (http://www.foureyesjokeshop.com/ProductImages/halitosis_Gum.jpg)and destroy by the splendor of his coming

aheh heh heh heh...You said; "splendor of his coming..."

:D:D

[Kendoka_Han]

aheh heh heh heh...You said; "splendor of his coming..."

:D:D

LOL LOL

you very....... naughty....grrrrrr :D

:laugh:

[Owen]

well, at least the quotes are minimal now...

and no joe, in the scenario i said that the military recieved a direct order of bs. the police would do nothing. i actually know a few cops who give a damn. they arent all the stereotypical fat racist white guy with a moustache that people perceive.

[KO1598]

War only benefits the people who start them, and the reasons are almost always related to money.

You have not benefited from war? really, if America didnt take half the country by force Mexico would probably be stronger than America. If you live on the west coast say goodbye to that. Yes its true that despite americas efforts some countries have become communist. but like i said, would you rather have your house bombed or theirs, all you have to say is yes or no. dont give me some long answer on how no ones house should be bombed just answer yes or no.

[Kenzan]

all you have to say is yes or no. dont give me some long answer on how no ones house should be bombed just answer yes or no.

Translation:

Badges?
You don't need to see any stinking rational thought badges!

KILL IT! KILLL IITTTTT!

:D


The short answer is this:
We cannot prevent wars that have happened in the past before we were born anymore than you can choose your parents or under what circumstances you were born.

Earlier someone mentioned diplomacy.
In the world of business, if you cannot perform your job, you get back in there and do it until either you find a solution, or you get fired.
When has it ever been acceptable to get what you want in business by storming into the board room with a bunch of armed men, and demanding your way will be followed at gunpoint?

On the issue of "houses being bombed" it really isn't "us" or "them".
There logically isn't any "them" anyway.
There's only "us" as in a species.

You know how you stop war?
I'll give you the secret;

Instead of visiting a country and then judging another culture, how about people just say: "Hey, you have your way, I have mine, thats great, let's do some business." You keep to your affairs, I'll keep to mine. You don't like, it, then we simply won't do business.

Need help?
Take a hike.
Nothing personal.
It's business.
It's pretty much this way between most countries in the world today.
'Cept for America for some reason.

Oh yeah..I forgot....it's because we like to screw with everyone.

[JSchmidt]

A case of poor control of soldiers, poor communications and poor judgment. Unlike Tienanmen square, there was (probably) no command-authority decision to fire on the students.


The point remains, however, that soldiers shot at their own citizens.

[Jearom]

What does "finish the job" look like.....exactly?
And how long is this supposed to take, and how much money am I to pay, and
what are we as a country going to reap as benefit from such an endeavor?

None of our "leaders" seems to be able to answer that one.
The US involvement in Iraq will end just about the same time as when the oil wells dry up.

[Chaby]

The US involvement in Iraq will end just about the same time as when the oil wells dry up.

The richest oil fields in the world is the Persian Gulf:

1Kuwait
2Iran (http://youtube.com/watch?v=1-eyuFBrWHs)
3Iraq
4Saudi Arabia

[dukboy123]

I'm too tired to counterpoint all of you who say the U.S. is evil for invading Iraq and that President Bush is some kind of imcompetent boob.

All I would like to point out to you guys is that we did not go into Iraq looking to fight a war. We thought we would go in there, get rid of Saddam (like we should of in 1991), and then help the Iraqi people get their country back into working order. We were going to pour billions of dollars into that country and get their schools, business, government, and yes, their oil fields, up and running. We were going to give the Iraqi people hope, a way to govern themselves without violence, all the while trying to respect thier culture and history. That was the honest and forthright intention of this administration.

Then the insurgency started. I, for one, was flummoxed. Here we here, with hand outstretched to help, and we get that hand chopped off. First we thought it was the remnants of Saddam's army and Saddam loyalists. Then it became Al Qaida joining the Saddamists, then independent militias vying for power and glory (by killing Americans), and now, they are on the brink of civil war.

People, this is NOT what the U.S. wanted, what it envisioned, and certainly didn't not spending this much money on it. You guys act like the Bush administration is glad we're over there slugging it out with the insurgents.

It just blows my mind that they can't see that we want to help them. We don't want to "occupy" them. I just get sad when I think of all that we could've done for that country if we weren't getting atttacked all the time.

How stupid can those folks be? What if some guy ran into your fence and destroyed it and then the next day came by offering to not only fix it, but make it far better than it ever was? Would you hide in your house and shoot him from behind the blinds as he started work? Lob grenades at him as he brought in supplies to rebuild your fence? Or what if he offered to give you lots of money to fix it in the way that YOU want to fix it? Would you spit in his eye and stab him in the throat?

[Kendoka_Han]

I'm too tired to counterpoint all of you who say the U.S. is evil for invading Iraq and that President Bush is some kind of imcompetent boob.

All I would like to point out to you guys is that we did not go into Iraq looking to fight a war. We thought we would go in there, get rid of Saddam (like we should of in 1991), and then help the Iraqi people get their country back into working order.

To later join the UN and attack Israel? :)


We were going to pour billions of dollars into that country and get their schools, business, government, and yes, their oil fields, up and running. We were going to give the Iraqi people hope, a way to govern themselves without violence, all the while trying to respect thier culture and history. That was the honest and forthright intention of this administration.

So that latter One World, One Religion, One leader plans could be accomplished.


How stupid can those folks be? What if some guy ran into your fence and destroyed it and then the next day came by offering to not only fix it, but make it far better than it ever was? Would you hide in your house and shoot him from behind the blinds as he started work? Lob grenades at him as he brought in supplies to rebuild your fence? Or what if he offered to give you lots of money to fix it in the way that YOU want to fix it? Would you spit in his eye and stab him in the throat?

You do know that Bush, and all the UN leaders have gay orgy parties with satanic blood rituals in the bohemian grove?

You do know they are playing a game for world dominance no matter who wins and loses.

:)

[dukboy123]

Kendoka Han, I truly hope that smiley meant the last two lines of your post was a joke. If not, well...they speak for themselves...

[Chaby]

“War is nothing more than the continuation of politics by other means.”

“If the leader is filled with high ambition and if he pursues his aims with audacity and strength of will, he will reach them in spite of all obstacles.”

-Karl von Clausewitz-

[Sparv]

How stupid can those folks be? What if some guy ran into your fence and destroyed it and then the next day came by offering to not only fix it, but make it far better than it ever was? Would you hide in your house and shoot him from behind the blinds as he started work? Lob grenades at him as he brought in supplies to rebuild your fence? Or what if he offered to give you lots of money to fix it in the way that YOU want to fix it? Would you spit in his eye and stab him in the throat?

I wasn't born then, but that is exactly what was in French newspapers during all the wars against colonization: yes we invaded them but we are building hospitals, schools, etc...
My country needed around thirty years after the decolonization to understand that people want to feel that their country is THEIR country, not the 51th state of America or a French( or English) county.

[Kendoka_Han]

Kendoka Han, I truly hope that smiley meant the last two lines of your post was a joke. If not, well...they speak for themselves...

Im smiling in confidence of fact. That smile can also indicate that no matter what you throw at me, it will not change my beliefs.