New Sword Laws

[Ly de Angeles]

Sorry to post such a mouthful but I received this info recently and, though it's only probably pertinent in Australia I haven't heard any updates. The laws pertaining to crossbows are moot - know about that - but the other? Any feedback would be welcome. The last thing some of us need is the hassle.Swords: Proposed law changes

The following are summations of what is happening, and I have taken the liberty do so without permission of the original writers - for this I apologise.....
This does NOT only impact Victorian groups prior to 1700 - any group utilising swords will face this.
I am only passing this on.
(VICTORIAN) Proposed Control of Weapons (Amendment) Regulation 2003

SUBMISSIONS REQUIRED PRIOR TO SEPTEMBER 8TH 2003

The proposed amendments to the regulations would make swords and crossbows "prohibited weapons". This appears to be in response to two attacks on people in the past three years in Victoria using swords, and one with a crossbow, as well as a
number of other incidents in other States.
The Act's Definition of a "Sword", being a thrusting, striking or cutting weapon with a long blade having 1 or 2 cutting edges and a hilt.'.
The proposed new regulations would require swords and crossbows to be licensed, and kept in secure safes. It would be illegal for us to use them in our public displays, or even carry them, without obtaining specific permission each time, up to a month in
advance. It would adversely impact on our ability to train in swordplay, and our recreational activities.

Weapon Licences would be required - the cost is $135 dollars if a person does not already have a gun licence or $115 if they do - to be paid every three years.

The regulations would require weapon safes to store swords in - like those for guns.

The regulations will require permits to take these weapons outside of the home and safe, both for public displays and for training. These permits will presumably be on the same basis as those for guns - they will need to be applied for a month ahead of the date for every time needed, and a fee will probably be charged for the permit.

Chris Shea (Victorian Justice Policy - ph 03 9651 6988) has confirmed that blunt reenactment swords would be covered under their definition of a sword.
All Victorians who own or buy swords and crossbows will be required to have a licence.Rules for interstate and overseas people visiting the state are yet to be commented on. It was also reiterated that we send him submissions. Its not set in stone yet and we may well get the exemption we are looking for.

Proposed Control of Weapons (Amendment) Regulation 2003
http://www.justice.vic.gov.au/legalchannel/dojsite.nsf/dab0606eefd
3be6bca256ab0003f4687/16b873afe0e32d3cca256d7c000b8c31/$FILE/ProposedControlofWeapons%20(Amendment)Regulations2 003.pdf

Proposed Control of Weapons (Search Powers) Regulation 2003
http://www.justice.vic.gov.au/legalchannel/dojsite.nsf/dab0606eefd
3be6bca256ab0003f4687/16b873afe0e32d3cca256d7c000b8c31/$FILE/ProposedFirearms(Search%20Powers)Regulations2003.p df

The Regulatory Impact Statement is here:
http://www.justice.vic.gov.au/legalchannel/dojsite.nsf/dab0606eefd
3be6bca256ab0003f4687/16b873afe0e32d3cca256d7c000b8c31/$FILE/RegulatoryImpactStatement.pdf


Licences? Revenue has enough.

Ly

[Hai_hai]

Sounds reasonable. It will prevent all kendo people from running around the countryside in hakama and killing with swords.

Hakama = okay.
Sword = okay.
Hakama + Sword = killing spree

[Ly de Angeles]

Nyuk, nyuk!

[rottunpunk]

does anyone know any of the cases/ links to them that concern sword attacks

for my dissertation i am looking at the law relating to offencive weapons (with particular reference to swords and guns and perhaps concealed weapons) and how the police enforce it asnd how they are successful with it

although this is english law, australian case law can have a persuasive authority on english cases
so any help would be good

besides the whole issue is quite juicy

:p

[Silverleaf]

I went into a local police station (in South Australia) to see if they knew anything about plans for ammending the SA laws, and if so what I'd have to do to get an exemption, what it would cost, etc, etc. I was somewhat disappointed that the officers there hadn't even heard of the Victorian reforms and seemed to have very little understanding of the *current* SA laws, but I suppose that's a good omen because they clearly haven't been told anything about planned changes here.

As for all the talk about gun license and safes, I'd like to know where it's coming from. I spent the other night going through various police websites, reading up on the actual specific sections of the document being changed, and I got very little more information than the fact that there is apparently no legitimate excuse for owning a prohibited weapon (Because apparently they're "exclusively offensive" - a pretty absurd statement since *any* weapon can be used defensively or offensively) and to own or transport one I need an exemption from the Chief Commisioner of Police - no information on what that entails.

I've also read on other forums that people have rung up and had it confirmed that training swords and replacement blades for display swords are included in this - I'm perfectly willing to argue that though. The definition of a sword for the purpose of this law specifically states the weapon needs one or two cutting edges. My iaito doesn't have a cutting edge at all, so I don't see how it can possibly be classified as one of these prohibited swords. Not that that doesn't mean that I don't care, because this law will severely inconvenience collectors of live swords or martial artists who practice live cutting.

Other stupid things to note about Australia's weapons laws: the definitions are as vague as possible. The definiton of a sword for the purposes of this reform states it has to have a "long blade". How long is long? Is a wakizashi technically considered a "short sword", but it's long enough to take someone's head off with. I'd like to see an actual length given. Also, the definition of a mace as a prohibited weapon has in it something to the effect of "excluding those maces built purely as a symbol of authority and used only for ceremonial purposes". How come the very definition of a mace has an inbuilt exception for legitimate users, but every other weapon (and most of them also have legitimate/ceremonial/authoritarian uses) have to jump through paperwork hoops? Seems a bit unfair. I'm also curious as to how many people have been attacked with maces in the past century...Don't get me wrong, I'm all for control of weapons because there's an obvious need, I just wish they'd give a little more thought to legitimate users.

Interestingly enough, tasers and capsicum spary are also, apparently, exclusively offensive, even though I thought the entire point of things like that was so people could carry them around for defence in case they got mugged, etc. Sigh. Maybe we should go back to pre-criminal code Japan's idea of just letting the threat of legitimate revenge curb unjustified violence :)

[Ly de Angeles]

and to own or transport one I need an exemption from the Chief Commisioner of Police - no information on what that entails.


Is that for real?

Interesting.
I had a visit from the cops the day before yesterday on an unrelated subject (one of my clients is supposedly involved in a homicide :puzzled: ) and both my training iato and my live katana were in the room + compound bow. Nothing was even mentioned.

I received the info on law reforms from Ahrlo. Our association is a member (ronin) and they're up on probably more news than local cops. We've gone so far as to have photo ID registration cards done for the group members because one guy was travelling to training with his iato, in a bag mind you, and he was stopped for a random breath test and had a hard time explaining *weapon*. Managed to convince cop that it was training sword but I think the new knife laws are random (??)

My sensei has travelled all round the world with both his live blade and his training sword. Recently. He had no problem.

I'm going to Adelaide later in the year and am taking both of mine. Last time I did so I had no problems as I boxed them but... No way do I want my things confiscated.

It bothers us here because we work both Eastern and Western weapons and even carry broadswords to the arena.

When I graded high enough in Hapkido I had to be registered as having done so *in case*, as the martial arts can get you into trouble if ever one has to defend oneself. It's a trip really because, truth be told (personally) better with a jo in my hands than a sword. Bloody thin bit of wood!

Rottenpunk mentioned English laws. Look, Australian government is a copy-cat government. Grrr. England does it - Aus does it; USA does it - Aus does it.

You're all about to get Security Cards, yeah? Nobody wants them. They'll be here next. No privacy.

[Silverleaf]

Is that for real?

Sure is. This is taken directly from the Victorian police website, it's a fairly good summary of the laws:


Categories of Weapons
The Control of Weapns Act 1990 divides non-firearm weapons into three basic categories.
# Prohibited weapons - these weapons which are considered inappropriate for general possession and use without an Exemption or an Approval from the Chief Commissioner of Police
# Controlled weapons - these weapons that can be used for legitimate purposes, but require regulation because of the possible danger they pose to the community
# Dangerous articles - these are any other articles, which are adapted or modified so as to be capable of being used as a weapon, or any other item which is carried with the intention of being used as a weapon.

You'll notice that the Victorian police are very familiar with English grammar...Oh, wait, no you won't. Their sentences don't make sense! Anyway, what's happening in Victoria is that swords and crossbows are being changed from Controlled (which means we can legitimately own/move/use them with a good excuse, which includes training) to Prohibited (which means we're screwed. Or something).

It's a little ambiguous what "without an Exemption or an Approval from the Chief Commisioner of Police" means. Maybe they mean "Exemption from a local police place or Approval from the CCP" or maybe both an Exemption or Approval come from the CCP. Either way, I'm yet to find any useful information on how one goes about this, or see where all this talk about hundred-and-something dollar fees and compulsory storage in safes comes from. Feel free to surf around the Weapon Identification Web Home Page (http://203.25.230.66/weaponsid/default.asp) , perhaps you'll be able to find something I couldn't. Good luck, though! I personally love the part that says " Any enquires concerning the above please contact the Licensing Service Branch" and then gives you a link to...the exact page you're already at. :rolleyes: They screwed their grammar up again too! Surely the person with the enquiry should contact the LSB, not the enquiry itself?

I saw we replace the police with samurai...

[Silverleaf]

Ah, a little bit of progress! The South Australian Police website leaves a lot to be desired in the way of interface design, but at least it has readily available information on weapons! I also found out a little about maybe why officers I spoke to got a little confused. I kept using the phrase "controlled weapon", as per Victorian law, whereas SA divides weapons not into controlled and prohibited, but rather offensive and prohibited. The definitions seem to be identical anyway. Swords are currently offensive here, which is fine, but if we follow in Victoria's footsteps and prohibit them, here's the deal for sword owners:

--- QUOTING http://www.police.sa.gov.au/firearms/prohib_weapon/weapon_exemption.shtml ---

Under certain circumstances individuals and members of some groups are exempt from some provisions of the laws relating to prohibited weapons.

Exempt persons include those who reasonably require prohibited weapons:

* In the course of business or employment (this does not cover manufacturers and dealers)
* For a lawful and recognised form of recreation or sport · For the purposes of providing a lawful entertainment for others
* A member of the SA Police in the course of duty
* Museums and art galleries
* A person who takes part in an official ceremony conducted by the Government of South Australia or the Commonwealth
* A dagger may be possessed for religious purposes
* Volunteer and paid emergency workers for the purpose of dealing with an emergency provided they do not threaten or injure anyone with it
* Executors of estates, liquidators and receivers in the course of duty

Subject to compliance with conditions set out in the Regulations:

* A person may possess and use an 'undetectable' knife for the preparation of food for human consumption
* Lodges of Freemasons may possess and use a poniard for ceremonial purposes
* A member of some Scottish associations may possess a dirk or skean dhu under certain circumstances
* A person may possess a prohibited weapon that is of sentimental value and is a heirloom
* A person may have a prohibited weapon as part of a collection
* Some Returned Services branches, clubs or bodies may possess prohibited weapons
* A licensed person who carries on the business of guarding property and certain licensed employees of the business may possess an extendable baton under strict conditions

Individuals who are not covered by an exemption, but feel they have a valid reason to possess a prohibited weapon, may apply for a special exemption to Commissioner of Police.

Applications must be made at a Police station.

A person may possess a prohibited weapon for the purposes of delivering it to the SA Police.

A person who has been found guilty of certain offences of violence might not be expempt under the above categories.

WILL THERE BE FEES FOR SPECIAL EXEMPTIONS?

Yes, there will be a fee to make an application. Whole or part of the fee may be refunded if the exemption is not required of is refused.

--- END OF QUOTING ---

So, there will be a fee involved at the very least :( Still, it doesn't look like it will be all that hard for martial artists/collectors to keep their swords. I'm a little dubious as to the morality of charging us money for the exemptions, but such is life I suppose. I'm sending an email to the relative people in SAPOL tonight asking if they know if the Victorian laws are coming here, I'll let you guys know what happens...

[Ly de Angeles]

Grr. I used your url info exchanging *nsw* for *sa* and was sent to their main page. Looked for associated articles as per your last thread and came up with zip. If you get a chance could you check it out? I'd like to know if the same applies here because:

* For a lawful and recognised form of recreation or sport
* For the purposes of providing a lawful entertainment for others


applies to us as does:

* A person may possess a prohibited weapon that is of sentimental value and is a heirloom
* A person may have a prohibited weapon as part of a collection
* Some Returned Services branches, clubs or bodies may possess prohibited weapons

In the instance of the "club or body" I'm assuming that Hokoshin Shinoh Ryu Iaido is registered in Australia as an association or a club. I'd need to check that with Shihan.
The problem there may be that it's registered only in S.A.

(Hmm. I'm a writer - perhaps I can seek employment with them as an editor? :ermm:)

[Ly de Angeles]

Okay. I haven't finished scrolling this site but thought you'd find it interesting:http://www.maia.com.au/prohibited_weapons.htm
It's the Martial Arts Industry Association (Australia). This url related to prohibited weapons but I'll read on ...

[Silverleaf]

I'm assuming that Hokoshin Shinoh Ryu Iaido is registered in Australia as an association or a club. I'd need to check that with Shihan. The problem there may be that it's registered only in S.A.

Oh, wow! A fellow Hokushin student! *bows* I had no idea! Anyway, I'm pretty sure we're registered Australia wide - we have dojos in Western Australia and Queensland as well as SA. We've just gone through a great big ugly phase of legally registering a seperate association, the Iaido Association of Australia (I think?) for the purposes of insurance or something, as you probably know. The name seems to suggest Australia-wideness.

So where do you train? Byron Bay is in NSW, isn't it? I didn't know we had dojos there!

[Ly de Angeles]

Yep. Byron Bay - smallest dojo in Oz (I think!)
I met Goran Trivic, from the Adelaide dojo, early this year. I've been doing martial arts for heaps of years and I was at the local gym with my mate Brigid, practicing staff katas.

He'd already met Jamie who works there and does karate (black belt or further - not sure) and aikido.

There's been a group of us from several different traditions training together since last year, sharing techniques and creating a kind of *no style*, leaning heavily into weapons (I've also taught archery for 20 years).

To keep a long story short Goran ended up inviting both of us to train as well. Along came Carla, also, who trains with us with staff and broadsword (bushido babes!) and we did an intensive, working through 10 wazas in a few weeks.

Very passionate about it; love the precision and the formailty.

He went back to Adelaide and left us to it. I've been down once and done the mega 5 hour marathon train the day after Shihan returned from Japan, cleaning up some glitches in our form, registering, concentrating.

It was Shihan organised my iato which was made for me and is awesome, and Phil who helped me get my live katana.

I'll be going back down there in a month or so.

Do I know you? Is this the same dojo? <grins> I was the woman with the tattooes on her forehead. I was there in about June.

*bows also: otagai ni rei!*

Ly

[Silverleaf]

Do I know you? Is this the same dojo? <grins> I was the woman with the tattooes on her forehead. I was there in about June.Ly

Ah, yes! I remember you! :) I'm not sure that you'll recall me, though - if you do it will probably be due to my hair. I wasn't the really long-haired guy, that would be Nathan-sempai, but my hair would have been tied back. I was also probably the youngest student present when you were ther. Chances are I'd have been standing one row infront of you during opening/closing formalities, along with a red-haired guy. Gomen, that's probably nowhere near enough to recognise me by, but I'm not particularly distinctive. We don't all have tattooes on our foreheads :tongue:

Well, what a pleasant surprise to run into somebody I (pseudo-)know here! Look forward to seeing you again in a months time!

[Ly de Angeles]

Yep. I remember you (I remember everything! Muhahaha!)
Helluva night. Shihan placed me with both Wolf and Goran who had [sometimes] conflicting views on waza which made it most interesting, particularly with Tachi Sugata - they both had different perspectives depending on whether the enemy was in a crowd: you gonna run at 'em or are they right in front of you? Was a very long night. Stayed behind for an added 3 hours after class. Was so hungry I could have bitten off someone's face!

[Silverleaf]

Yep. I remember you (I remember everything! Muhahaha!)

Impressive :) Who is this Wolf you speak of?

[Ly de Angeles]

He was a very big dude - rocky (?). No good am I with peoples ages but maybe 30's. High rank for sure - not certain how high. Big but extremely proficient. Brown hair - long.

[Silverleaf]

He was a very big dude - rocky (?). No good am I with peoples ages but maybe 30's. High rank for sure - not certain how high. Big but extremely proficient. Brown hair - long.

How odd - I have no idea who you're talking about! Perhaps he only trains on Sundays, such that someone like myself who only trains on Wednesdays wouldn't know him. Although I've been to a few Sunday classes for gradings, and still don't know anybody with long hair - I thought Nathan-sempai was the only one.

[Silverleaf]

So, I'm still yet to hear back from the SA Police...I sent the email well over a week ago now. Nice to see the security of my state is in capable hands :)