katana and armor.

[Sparv]

I read in Wikipedia that when wearing their armour, the samourais were carrying their katana edge down. True? False?

It's the case in "the last samourai".

[tango]

is there a citation given for the sentence with this information?

[Sparv]

I read it there (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana#Carrying), but Wikipedia is not always very reliable.

[NorthernKendoka]

I think wiki is both right and wrong in this case. The samurai wore their sword edge down when in armour but in that case the sword wasn't usually a katana but a tachi or at least in tachi koshirae (fittings). The tachi was usually worn hung from the obi edge down to help drawing the sword when mounted. More on the subject http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachi

[Max C.]

The sword was worn edge down when on horse. If they wore it in a "katana way" the point of the scabbard would bang against the horse, making him hard to direct. If you wore a katana on foot and had no intention of mounting a horse, even if you wore armor, then it's edge up.

[Sutemi]

The sword was worn edge down when on horse. If they wore it in a "katana way" the point of the scabbard would bang against the horse, making him hard to direct. If you wore a katana on foot and had no intention of mounting a horse, even if you wore armor, then it's edge up.

Also, I've heard (in Iaido), that wearing the blade edge-down is a sort of safety percaution / social gesture. Wearing your sword edge-down signifies that you're not prepared to properly draw the blade, and thus, do not / cannot be ready to quickly respond or initiate combat.

[herozs]

in wikipedia search samurai and theres a picture of one in armour with the sword edge facing down.

[Oroshi]

The tachi, which predates the katana, is worn blade down. Tachi were widely used throughout the Kamakura and Muromachi periods, and during the sengoku jidai, when armour was commonly worn (battles were being fought!). After this time the katana became dominant. I've never seen katana worn edge-up with armour, but that's not to say that it never happened. Tachi are generally longer and more curved than katana.

Iai techniques were originally developed for the tachi, and were later adapted to fit the katana. Having the blade edge down may not facilitate as fast a draw as having it edge up, but in no way does it prevent you from drawing the blade properly.

* disclaimer - if I've made a mistake, I hope someone more knowledgeable will kindly point it out.

[Kenzan]

The sword was worn edge down when on horse. If they wore it in a "katana way" the point of the scabbard would bang against the horse, making him hard to direct. If you wore a katana on foot and had no intention of mounting a horse, even if you wore armor, then it's edge up.

My understanding was that on a horse it was down because otherwise it would get in the way of firing the bow. But I imagine it would also make steering the horse more difficult as well.
Isn't there a light Hanten style jacket type with a spit in the back to facilitate the Saya sticking out for riders?

[fifthchamber]

The Tachi is worn edge down to facilitate drawing from horseback. You can't draw a Katana type slung sword when mounted as the horse's head get's in the way..It's a little too directly forwards to draw easily.

The Tachi was also slung to keep it on the leg and clear of the bow, if the tsuka was closer to the waist you would have a hard time clearing the bowstring of the handle each time you fired..

The Katana or uchigatana came into fashion towards the end of the Muromachi Jidai (leading up to the 1600's) due to lack of horses and the practicality of being able to draw quickly while standing rather than seated on horseback. Even then however Tachi were carried and worn edge down, possibly with a shorter Uchigatana slung through the obi edge up as in Iaido.

There is VERY little chance that a Katana would be slung through the obi edge down. It runs a risk of damaging the saya and negates the use of the sword, which is entirely useless..Even if you didn't intend to draw it. That's the reason the kurigata are faced on the omote side of the saya for Katana and on the Ura for the Tachi type..If you heard that the Samurai would turn their blade edge down to present a non attacking image I would suggest it was a compounded rumour..Not true from all that I have ever heard.

In armour, one could carry a Tachi, Uchigata and one or two shorter blades thrust through the belt without so much hassle. Yoroi doshi are another good option for short stabbing daggers to be carried when in armour..

Out of armour the Katana would be slung edge up through the belt with the Kodachi slung more directly in front and under the katana to support it and allow a closer draw from the right with the short sword..

Regards..

[babayaga]

There is VERY little chance that a Katana would be slung through the obi edge down. It runs a risk of damaging the saya and negates the use of the sword, which is entirely useless.

Entirely useless? How so? Meaning it can't be drawn from that position? It seems obvious but I can't imagine what else could be meant, so I'll refer to seitei kesagiri as well as all of Shindo Munen Ryu for examples of how easily a katana-mounted sword can be used from an edge-down position.

As far as damaging the saya, I imagine you mean on notto. Yes, that's a problem until you learn what to do. But I think the practical reason the katana is worn edge-down is that it's not stable in the obi with the edge up. Try it. The tachi mount has two attachment points to the obi and allows flexibility without rocking.


If you heard that the Samurai would turn their blade edge down to present a non attacking image I would suggest it was a compounded rumour..Not true from all that I have ever heard.

And doesn't make much sense, either. I agree. If it ever was societal convention I'm sure it only lasted until gyaku draws became popular.

[Max C.]

The Katana or uchigatana came into fashion towards the end of the Muromachi Jidai (leading up to the 1600's) due to lack of horses and the practicality of being able to draw quickly while standing rather than seated on horseback. Even then however Tachi were carried and worn edge down, possibly with a shorter Uchigatana slung through the obi edge up as in Iaido.

It actually started in the Onin war (15th century), when urban battles became more frequent, rendering the use of foot soldiers prevalent. The shortage of horses is also a reason, and some would argue the mongol invasions also played a major part. By the end of the Muromachi period (1466), the majority of swords produced were uchigatana.

As for wearing the katana edge up in armor, there are various examples from the kamakura period (1394-1595) . (from kyoto costume museum)
http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm
http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm
http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm

Again it would be worn edge down if you thought you would ride a horse during battle. A katana could be worn in a tachi way by tying the sageo in a specific way or using a type of frog (not the animal ;) ).

Also as for the side of the the blade used to denote a state of mind, you normaly hold it on the right if you want to show your peaceful intentions, and there are instances were you can hold it with the edge down, although I am not versed enoug in the Ogasawara school of ettiquete to answer this.

[Max C.]

Here are the specific url

http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm
http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/38.htm
http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/16.htm

[KO1598]

Samurai Swords were always worn down except for the Tachi, when wearing armor the sword was more comfortable edge down. Thats why in Kendo we stand with the string on the shinai down, because the string is like the top edge of a real sword. And in Kata both wooden swords are also carried edge down. In truth I think it was more a tradition than a practical thing, plenty of cultures wore curved swords edge down fine. curved Chinese, korean, european, middle eastern swords are always worn edge down

[Alison2805]

Ahhhhhh.... Ive been doing it wrong all this time.

[KO1598]

Samurai Swords were always worn down except for the Tachi, when wearing armor the sword was more comfortable edge up. Thats why in Kendo we stand with the string on the shinai down, because the string is like the top edge of a real sword. And in Kata both wooden swords are also carried edge up. In truth I think it was more a tradition than a practical thing, plenty of cultures wore curved swords edge down fine. curved Chinese, korean, european, middle eastern swords are always worn edge down.


* Accidentally mixed some words up in my previous post

[KO1598]

so yeah thats wut i think lol

[Owen]

the string represents the blunt side, and the shinai is always(?) sharp edge (opposite slat) up. if you strike with the string you will not recieve ippon. im not sure if that is what you are trying to say, but i am just clarifying.

[KO1598]

I'm saying the reason when we carry a shinai, you know carrying it in our left hand with the blade behind us why not the string up? because its supposed to represent a sword and katanas were carried edge up, correct me i'm wrong, thats the impression i got.

[Sutemi]

I'm saying the reason when we carry a shinai, you know carrying it in our left hand with the blade behind us why not the string up? because its supposed to represent a sword and katanas were carried edge up, correct me i'm wrong, thats the impression i got.

I was taught the same thing - that the tsuru is kept down because the edge is kept up on a shinken. Thus, we respect tradition and hold our shinai like real swords.

I say the last part with the word "like" with a little bit of fear - the last time I practiced at NCKF summer camp with the old coach of the AJKF's World Team, he went in-depth into how kenshi don't respect the shinai as a sword. What little Japanese I know gleaned that he kept emphasizing that the shinai is indeed a sword, and we should treat it with the same reverence that we do the katana.

[fifthchamber]

Entirely useless? How so? Meaning it can't be drawn from that position? It seems obvious but I can't imagine what else could be meant, so I'll refer to seitei kesagiri as well as all of Shindo Munen Ryu for examples of how easily a katana-mounted sword can be used from an edge-down position.

As far as damaging the saya, I imagine you mean on notto. Yes, that's a problem until you learn what to do. But I think the practical reason the katana is worn edge-down is that it's not stable in the obi with the edge up. Try it. The tachi mount has two attachment points to the obi and allows flexibility without rocking.


Useless in so far as an opponent with a blade worn edge up will have a speed advantage on you drawing from his front edge with a rising cut..It's simply quicker to go straight into the cut..It is certainly used, but it's not so common for the above reason..It's not so practical.

And for damage to the saya, I actually meant that the edge would be in contact with the saya inside and would damage it there, I have seen noto done by the Shojitsu Kenri Kataichi Ryu and Kanzaki sensei turns the saya round to almost edge up to resheathe..Saving the saya from being cut.

As for being less stable, I'd again disagree, I find that the sword worn edge up, close against the body on the left side and tucked into a good obi gives greater stability than having it swing edge down on the left leg..It tucks in tight against your waist and is easily stable enough to take ukemi for example..

Oh, and as for the time frame I was talking about, I assumed we all knew when the Muromachi Jidai ended...(Although perhaps there is some room for maneuvre there too). Generally it leads up to the mid 1500's..And the Onin war would be the last gasp of the Muromachi shogunate..But yeah, I should have been clearer with that perhaps..

Regards.

[ShinKenshi]

Jumping in kinda late but I just thought to add my two cents to this.

From what I heard, the reason the tachi was worn edge down was because it was easier to draw from the saya on horseback. In addition, if a samurai were to wear it edge up, the end of the saya would dig into the horse and act as a spur, not to mention the fact that while at a full gallop the sword would most likely fall right out of the saya. When the tachi gave way to the katana, the samurai found that while just wearing their hakama and placing the sword through the obi, they couldn't continue wearing it blade down because it was too cumbersome and made it much too difficult to draw in a hurry. By wearing their swords blade up, they found they could draw their swords much more easily.

I could be wrong here but again, this is just what I was told but when you picture the different scenarios it does make sense.