Kiai

[Twobitmage]

hello there, I just found this board while looking up the proper kiai, but it wasnt quite what I was looking for ("strangest kiai you ever heard")

I've been practicing for about 2 years and my kiai is kinda off (or maybe even VERY off)

my sensei keeps saying 2 things

"louder"
"from the gut"

First off I kiai sorta like "SAAAAAH", is that a bad idea? secondly I need help with the technique, or a possible way to practice it. One problem is that my neighbors house is a mere 3-4 yards away from mine so I would probably bother them. Second is I cant figure out what a kiai from the abdomen feels like or how to make a sound come from there.

thanks for any help

[Kaoru]

Hi Twobitmage,

Welcome to the forum!

Ok, two ideas... first, ask a senior to help you out. I am sure they'd be happy to. Second, and I'm serious, find a voice(singing) teacher and take a lesson or two and explain what you want to learn. I am a singer, and trust me, it does help. You don't want to use the throat. "From the gut" is correct, although a voice teacher would call it the diaphram. It also has to do with how you breathe too.

Well, I hope this helps a bit. Oh, practice kiai inside... That is ok.

Kaoru

[LNGUYEN]

First, I think you should practice breathing. Most regular people breath with upper lungs and you can see it when their shoulder move up and down with their inhale and exhale. For sport player or Martial artist, we use lower lung to breath to get more air because the lower lungs are bigger. When people do this, you don't see the shoulder movements but instead the tummy move in and out. Next time, you should try to use your abdomen to control your breath. Just expand your tummy so the air can flow in by itself and press your tummy to force the air out. that is called "from your gut". If you can do this, the Kiai will come easy. That is my experience from Judo, Music education college, and now Kendo (still beginning). I hope this help.

[Revenir]

I have been practising kendo way less than you so my 'advice' should be taken as asking whether it's the right way to do this.

Firstly, I develop my kiai during kendo class which is actually the only place i can ever do it. I live in Hong Kong where there is virtually no open/private space to do any 'kiai-ing' and if i kiai in my room, my brothers and mom will wonder what's happening to me... I admit my kiai isn't all that good, long way to go before it gets anywhere near my sensei's kiai, but I just shout with all I have, anger and all, in kendo practise and it sounds pretty good for a beginner.

Of course I quietly practise at home to see if i can change it to make it any fiercer and powerful, then I try doing it that way with full volume in the dojo.

Oh, and btw my kiai is kinda like 'Yaaaaaaa'. Not high pitched or low-pitched but a 'scratchy' aaaaa at the back of my throat.

[monkeydo]

try breathing in and out without shoulders going up and down, instead having your stomach go in and out.
While doing that go next to a chair and lean into the backing of the chair. You should feel your air coming out faster, now voice that air. More effective level will be to be completely supported by the backing of the chair, because doing that will force you to tighten your stomach even tighter.

well hope this helps.

[Twobitmage]

Anyone happen to have a recording of a match, with someone who is really good at kiai? for me to imitate that is

I was thinking of borrowing my sisters digital recorder to practice mine, and even showing it to you guys for opinions(?)

thanks for the tips so far guys

[Twobitmage]

Anyone happen to have a recording of a match, with someone who is really good at kiai? for me to imitate that is

I was thinking of borrowing my sisters digital recorder to practice mine, and even showing it to you guys for opinions(?)

thanks for the tips so far guys


whoops sorry for the double post but its too late to edit..

I also found this

A Proper Kiai
The kiai involves the tensing of the diaphragm and expelling air from the mouth, making a short sharp sound. The sound should be a one syllable sound like "I", "HI" and "EE". You want your kiai to be as short but loud as possible. However, a kiai should not be confused with a yell. A well-executed kiai will not cause the throat to feel to raw, as yelling would. Continued careless kiais can potentially damage your voice or at tire you during a strenuous training session.
The other important part of producing the perfect kiai is good breathing patterns. A kiai is usually appropriate in the middle of an exhausting practice session. This is often when breathing becomes labored, and posture is poor. Your tend to use an upper chest breathing pattern (thoracic), and stoop over in order to get breath back. In fact, this gives the smallest lung volume possible, which doesn’t leave much air to kiai on.
Instead, it is useful to use a diaphragmatic pattern, which increases lung volume, and improves recovery time. To establish diaphragmatic breathing sit up straight with shoulders relaxed. Place your hands on your back at the bottom of your ribcage. As you breathe, try to make your hands move in and out without raising your chest and shoulders, or sticking out your stomach. The goal is to feel that the diaphragm controls your breathing. This will provide more support and control for the kiai, which means is has the potential to be louder.
Using good breathing relaxed shoulders and good voice habits will produce an impressive kiai without causing any damage to you.

I tried to do that exercise (if Im doing it right) where I put my hands on my back and make it move without my shoulders. I kind of discovered a weird "new" breathing (for me anyway) but it seems sort of forced, and makes a hiss noise. dunno if thats right. anyway I'll try to keep practicing.

my neighbors wont be able to take any naps today :ditsy:

[Neil Gendzwill]

Sounds like something written by a karateka. In kendo we kiai a lot more and a lot longer than that.

[Revenir]

Sounds like something written by a karateka. In kendo we kiai a lot more and a lot longer than that.

Yeh, exactly what i was thinking actually... over here, we're told to kiai before we attack, and during kirikaeshi, we kiai before we start making the first men cut and a long kiai on the last one.
I was wondering if my whole dojo got it wrong... but thanks to Mr. Gendzwill, I don't have the churning feeling in my mind anymore =)

[Marine_Boy]

Neil is correct, that method you described is usually used by non kendoka. In fact that is how my aikido sensei taught me to kiai.

I just love it when I'm practicing with a beginner (in aikido) and I kiai loudly at them then watch them flinch as I perform my technique.

I've only been in armour for a few months and only started kendo in Feb, but in that time, I have managed to extend my kendo kiai long enough to do kirikaeshi.

Also try sitting in seizei, expand your lower abdomen and breath in and out slowly whilst expanding it. This area is called your hara and it'll help develop your kendo / centre / kiai etc.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Marine Boy brings up a very good point - kirikaeshi is an excellent opportunity to work on your breathing and your kiai. The whole exercise should be done in two breaths. The first breath is everything up until the 2nd straight men (so 11 cuts totally), and the second is the rest. When you kiai for this exercise, it should be continuous sound with peaks when you connect. Let out as little air as possible while doing this.

[Jagaimo]

One problem is that my neighbors house is a mere 3-4 yards away from mine so I would probably bother them. Second is I cant figure out what a kiai from the abdomen feels like or how to make a sound come from there.

thanks for any help

If you need a place to practice your kiai, try your car. No one can hear you while you are cruzing down the freeway. Also, its almost a stress relief from road rage. I just moved to the Sacramento area and I have witnessed some of the worst driving I have ever seen.

I think the best way to know if you get the sound right is when you get scared of it for the first time. If it is enough to intimidate yourself then your opponent might just poop their pants/hakama.

[Eldritch Knight]

Keep in mind that kiai (as well as kendo) are not things of rage, so if you let anger guide it, you'll either attack at a bad time, or fail to realize a key point in your opponent's movements. It is definetely a thing of emotion, though, so put your spirit into the yell (don't be distanced from it and think of it mentally). It's usually a single syllable, but I've heard doubles, triples, and a few that sounded more like roars than anything intelligible. Just work at it (in your car on the interstate is a great idea) and it'll get better. Ganbare!

[k3nsh1n]

hello every1..

it seems to be suggested that kiai is done the way singing is done..
as in the breathing and 'using your gut' to produce the sound..
but wen i try doing kiai like that.. it sounds like.. singing at a constant note?
'yaaaaa....' not an aggressive expulsion of spirit..
is the sound of ones kiai uncontrollable?
im only a beginner so i know my kiai would not be that good..
but personally i'd like it to sound like those rather hoarsy, roar type kiaiz
atm its a high-ptiched 'ya!' sound..

[LNGUYEN]

Hello, I know that I am not that good but I know that I can't Kiai as good as a senior or Sensei because he practices alot more than me. If you hear someone Kiai better than you and you can't do that, practice more and more. It is just like you wondering why you can't play Basket ball as good as Michael Jordan. Just be patience, after a few years, you probably Kiai as good as others.

[nodachi]

I think that you should try to kiai from your gut and not your throat, which has been said, I know, but I found that if you just give it time, your kiai will just naturally form and happen. If you think about it too much, it seems forced or just doesn't sound right, but eventually after hearing everyone else's kiai repeatedly and when you are in "the zone" your true kiai will just naturally happen. Don't think about it too much and eventually it will come out without you trying to make a good kiai on purpose. If you are in an aggressive (but not angry) mindset, it'll just come out right. Be patient.

[Twobitmage]

I kinda found that it trails of, often after a hit

sorta like

MEEEeeen

Thats at least something I understand how to fix

[Machismo111]

I kinda found that it trails of, often after a hit

sorta like

MEEEeeen

Thats at least something I understand how to fix

Wait...should it or should it not trail off?

[Twobitmage]

Wait...should it or should it not trail off?


not as bad as it does with me :dead:

[Neil Gendzwill]

Wait...should it or should it not trail off?
It should not, the sound should end strongly.

[Zanza]

my sensei keeps saying 2 things


It's called sempai/senpai. Sensei is kind of a master. :tired:

[lwegerich]

It should not, the sound should end strongly.

Exactly, it can even end up a bit "higher" than it started.

[pamiro]

i believe that the kiai is very important but
i dont get the logic of shouting out the name of the technique ??
why should one scream out where he is attacking to the opponent ?
why not also cut the hakamas into half and try to help them see the feet movements better??

[Neil Gendzwill]

You're not calling out the name before you hit it, you're calling it as you hit it. This accomplished two things at once: you have made your kiai, thus adding your ki into the ki-ken-tai-ichi equation, and you've also let the judges know that you hit what you meant to hit. If you kiai "men", but hit kote, it's no point no matter how good it is.

[pamiro]

If you kiai "men", but hit kote, it's no point no matter how good it is.

as a newbie to kendo i will ask...
so is it a must to tell the name of the technique?
what if you just do a kiai like "aaaaiiiii" and make a men... do you get the point or not?

thanks...

[Raiza]

Yup, that's a point. As long as it's good (ki-ken-tai-ichi with zanshin) it doesn't matter what your kiai is.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The kiai should be the name of the point. While I've seen shimpan take a point where the kiai is indecipherable, they can refuse it. I've definitely seen points waved off where the kiai was wrong (men instead of kote, or whatever).

[Raiza]

I agree with Neil on that particular point. If you scream "kote!" while hitting men, it shouldn't be counted.

[lwegerich]

(...) thus adding your ki into the ki-ken-tai-ichi equation (...)

Can you please explain what this "ki-ken-tai-ichi equation" is about? Guess it's a sort of Ki and Ken (sword) is melting into each other ("ichi"), but what's the "tai" about?

[Raiza]

"Tai" means body, so all the body movements must be completed together. Your foot should hit the floor (i.e. fumikomi) when your shinai strikes the target.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Spirit, sword, body as one. From a beginner's viewpoint, the sound of your voice, shinai and foot should be exactly together.

[etherknot]

Sounds like something written by a karateka. In kendo we kiai a lot more and a lot longer than that.

You know. It's kind of funny. Recently a karate group has begun to share one of our practice spaces (they leave right before us). The other day they were in there and I was thinking to myself: "Wow. They're so... quiet!" And I laughed. :)

[Twobitmage]

You know. It's kind of funny. Recently a karate group has begun to share one of our practice spaces (they leave right before us). The other day they were in there and I was thinking to myself: "Wow. They're so... quiet!" And I laughed. :)


really? a kiai I heard once from a karateka was pretty...how should I say...sharp(?)

hard to explain

[lwegerich]

The concept of Kiai in Karate is different, as far as I know. Practised Karate for 10 years and switched to Kendo one year ago b/c of knee issues. So, my knowledge is very limited.

The kiai in Karate is "sharp". I think this is a good definition, thx to Twobitmage. The idea behind it is to concentrate the kiai as well as the impact of the blow / kick in one single point in time exactly in the moment where you hit the opponent. Not too early, not too late. Only in this small amount of time there is tension in the body (same as te-no-uchi concept I guess). Before and after hitting the body is mostly relaxed. The whole concept is called "kime" in japanese. Here is a short introduction, though it sounds quite "vague" to me.

http://www.digitomnia.com/wku/default.asp?SectionKey=BookExtracts&SectionID=34&TextID=3

From my limited experience and understanding of Kendo this is quite the same on second sight. The moment of hitting with the tip of the shinai requires a good te-no-uchi and and "emphasis" of the Kiai.

Maybe one of you Kendo experienced guys can comment on that.