Promoting Seitei Jodo [Archive] - Kendo World Forums

Newbie

11-09-2007, 05:13 PM

How do you promote seitei jodo? First of all to other MAist and secondly to the general public who may be looking to take up a martial art?

We have a bit of a catch 22 problem in Adelaide. We only have a shodan (ZNKR, that is. A couple of the koryu dojo do or have just started doing seitei). Now there are three of us, including our sempai who do seitei jodo and five of us doing seitei iaido (though one of those has expressed an interest in jodo). Now, because numbers are so low, sempai has trouble justifying a regular training time to his wife but it's hard to say "come and do jo (or iai, i guess ;) )!" when there's no regular training time... So sempai's asked me to start promoting and recruiting.

I was thinking of posters, to start with. I have a really nice kendo poster made up with a little bit down the bottom saying "also seitei iaido & jodo" but thought I could take that off and make seperate posters for all three (I need to get some local iaido and jodo pics first). Now, whilst I think the kendo poster is fine for both MA shops and community notice boards, I think having two different ones for iaido and jodo would be better.

But what do you put on them? There is so much to jodo, it truly is very deep. But that only becomes evident after you start. Kendo looks exciting - you get to hit people and the energy is obvious. Iaido you use a sword and looks impressive and has a definite majesty about it, plus people like swords. But jo... numbers seem to be low everywhere. Last figures I heard for Australia, though they're a couple years old now were kendo:600, iaido:300 and jodo:150. Who of you started jodo before other MA or only do jodo? What attracted you?

What on earth can you put on a poster that would attract people to jodo?

What ways have you guys been able to promote jo and how do you make it attractive to other budoka and to non-budoka? How do you make seitei attractive to budoka already practising? I don't think just posters is gonna cut it but I'm at a bit of a loss cos most of our kendoka just don't seem interested and they're the most likely recruiting ground.

Thanks for your help. I'm hoping this thread will help in the discussion of raising jodo numbers all over.

dgilliespie

11-09-2007, 05:28 PM

Good luck.

Be careful on this forum though somebody else tried to promote Jodo but got told he was spammer.

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?p=213542#post213542

Newbie

11-09-2007, 05:49 PM

I'm not trying to post jo on the forum. I'm asking how people on the forum promote jo.

dgilliespie

11-09-2007, 06:00 PM

I'm not trying to post jo on the forum. I'm asking how people on the forum promote jo.
Well, you'd think posting on Kendo World would be one way but other members didn't like it and shot him down.

My suggestions

- PR Video on youtube with your groups name added
- one day free introduction course
- get story in local newspaper

As I said good luck.

Martch

11-09-2007, 06:13 PM

Newbie

11-09-2007, 06:19 PM

Yeah, I only started cos my asthma got too bad to do kendo for a month or so, so sempai said "right, jodo then" till it came back under control. But always thought it'd be "something i'd get round to doing" cos I did kendo and iaido (though only dabblind in iai at the time).

None of us have a video camera but induction course through WEA could be promising..

torashin

11-09-2007, 11:23 PM

Hi Newbie

I have the similar problem here in the UK I'm trying to start up a Jo group and to be honest the response from my Iaidoka is slow to say the least. The best response I've had is from the Aikidoka who attend our Iai group. They already train with the Jo (be it Aikijo) so they are familiar with the weapon at least.

So my advice to you would be contact your Aikikai & Yoshinkan Aikidoka and also try the Jutsu people they love weapons ;-)

Have you thought of advertising a beginners seminar, all welcome etc?

Hope your numbers improve it would be a shame to lose a Jo dojo :-(

Newbie

11-09-2007, 11:35 PM

Ha! Jo dojo. Funny. There are three of us registered as practising seitei jo under AKR and one other interested. And only one of our seitei iai guys isn't that interested. Yup, only five of us doing seitei iai.

But anyway, there was one kendoka a while back at Christmas that expressed an interest in jodo cos he enjoyed aikijo so much but I haven't seen him since, unfortunately. However, I'm really funny about what might be considered 'poaching' from the other arts and clubs.

We have an organisation here called WEA (can't remember what it stands for) but they run courses everything from a few hours to two months, from tiling to bush walking, to travel, to cookery, to singing, to languages. I was thinking maybe a day course/seminar of Japanese swordsmanship with an hour and a half each of kendo, iaido and jodo. But I'll have to talk to our state pres and the guys that would actually be running it.

Great ideas though.

torashin

11-09-2007, 11:54 PM

Poaching sounds a bit strong, I'd call it improving their knowledge of Budo by experiencing other arts. Thus making them a more rounded exponent of their chosen art ;-)

Newbie

12-09-2007, 12:47 AM

Yeah, but you gotta go about it really, really carefully so you can't be accused of poaching. Last thing I want to do. I maintain that no martial art is better than another - just different (with a few exceptions, of course) and different arts appeal to different people for different reasons. Sorry, I just hate the "my fighting style's better than your fighting style" crap and don't wanna be accused of doing the same. Esp as we're on good terms with some of the other MA clubs.

torashin

12-09-2007, 01:26 AM

Hey, no problem I totally understand your position. I've moved around a bit in the past and I can see why people get into those types of arguments. I think we've all had them at some point :)

My only thoughts are that you're not trying to get people to change and stop what they do already, that would be foolish. It's more along the lines of doing something that sits quite well alongside their existing training. The only issue here is convincing your wife/girlfriend/partner/cat etc that you now need to go out for yet another evening to train. That's the difficult bit :laugh:

My main study at the moment is MJER and I found it quite easy to slip into Jodo. It gives me even more to think about.

Newbie

12-09-2007, 01:37 AM

My cat's gotten used to the kiai now. I couldn't kiai whilst training before - frightened the life out of her, more than waving a sword about. (and before one of the more protective boys jumps on you, i'm a lass ;) )

I was thinking of posters promoting all three arts (cos we are under the South Australian Kendo Assoc and don't wanna get them offside.. well, seeing as it's my club and all) cos it's actually easier to promote them all than just one, and that way noone's nose is out of joint, but with posters at the uni gym notice boards cos they have various other MA in there and the notice board at one is on the way to the change rooms.

For poster locations I was thinking: unis, community notice boards, anime shops, Japanese shops, roleplaying shops, MA shops. I'm also designing a little bookmark sized flyer (so three to an A4 page) promoting SAKA with Kendo, Iaido and Jodo all mentioned with the contact name and email addy under each art heading.

Newbie

12-09-2007, 01:58 AM

Oh yeah, sorry I hate double posting but forgot to ask this - how do you make jodo attractive to people who haven't done it before? What makes someone want to do jodo?

Andy_Watson

12-09-2007, 04:55 AM

We (at our dojo) made a decision a few years ago to not let people just drift in and start practising but instead to develop a waiting list and then hold a 6-week induction course.

The course was as widely advertised as we could with a very nice poster, all the relevant information on it etc etc.

In parallel with this we also realised that attracting beginners wasn't a problem but keeping people was and so we had the following process to eliminate those who wouldn't really give it their all...

1. You pay a £30 deposit 2-3 weeks before the course and then the remaining amount (£30) after the 1st of the 6 sessions.

There ya go. That was enough to bring a 46-person waiting list plus all the people who saw the advert and were interested down to about 9 people for iai. Repeating that for jodo, we went from maybe a 20-person waiting list plus interested others down to about 12.

We did retain four people after the iai (down to one now after 4ish years) and four from the jo (currently down to 1 or 2).

What I think works quite nicely is that people immediately start in a peer group instead of being, for a period, the worse person in the dojo. A peer group is a powerful thing and I don't think detracts anything from the martial arts.

We ensured that we had an anticipatory 6-session lesson plan and revised everything every week and built upon their knowledge bit by bit (if you are interested I can send you the lesson plan).

The initial course fee was to cover the cost of a jo and BKA temporary membership and a bit to cover hall rental.

The thing is that will be people who will take it up, be brilliant at it and keep it going for the rest of their lives - provided they hear about it in the right way and start practise. You have to advertise as far and as in many ways as you possibly can.

This is a very interest subject for me, not least because it is now my responsibility to grow the number of members and dojos doing jodo in the UK.

Regards

Martch

12-09-2007, 05:28 AM

Andy, a few questions - do you have separate weekly jo & iai sessions they signed up to? was this a significant increase in membership over the medium-long term and did you repeat this course approach? We've considered something like this, obviously not being in London we don't have the same catchment population but it's food for thought.

Andy_Watson

12-09-2007, 07:29 AM

Hi Martin

In order...

do you have separate weekly jo & iai sessions they signed up to?

We do now since Chris came back, Wednesday Iai, Sunday Jo. At the time though we held two different induction courses. The first (about four years ago) was for iai and the second (just over a year ago) was for jo. In our little experience, people were a little blown away with the sheer volume of extra stuff to learn when going from iai to jo. The reverse didn't seem to phase people.

was this a significant increase in membership over the medium-long term and did you repeat this course approach?

Not really, it still demonstrated that only about 1 in, say 100 (or 10,000), who start actually continue. To date we have only retained one person from both courses. It did however mean that we didn't sacrifice time, space, effort and overall ballsachingness in teaching every single one of those 46 people on the waiting list only to have 45 of them leave after a number of months spaced over a number of years.

We've considered something like this, obviously not being in London we don't have the same catchment population but it's food for thought.

I would heartily recommend it. I certainly am now opposed to having an open-door approach to the dojo. Especially as we don't have enough space anyway for our regular members.

Charles Lockhar

12-09-2007, 07:49 AM

How do you promote seitei jodo?

I'm way behind on my caffeine quota today. But what are the benefits of promoting jodo?

I have noticed that new people in the dojo usually means valuable sensei-time being wasted. And by wasted, I of course mean "not spent on me."

Nah, I'm just kidding 'bout that second part. But what are the goals of promoting jo, seitei or koryu? I always figured it worked well as a "field of dreams" kind of thing.

-Charles

Charles Lockhar

12-09-2007, 07:53 AM

I think it helps a lot to know a bit about swords before you pick up a jo, which means having some background in Kendo, Iai or Kenjutsu. Jodo (especially seitei) tends to appeal to iai people as it's studied in a similar way, so I'd suggest your main target audience should be iaido clubs and organisations. Few kendoka want to do Jodo in my experience (new thread subject?), and it's very, very rare for someone to want to just do Jo without doing another sword art as well.

Must be a bunch of weirdos where I come from. I think the majority of jo guys I've trained with seem to have come to jo from backgrounds that didn't really include any previous JSA stuff.

My doing jo for a couple years eventually led to me doing kendo.

-Charles

Marcus_P

12-09-2007, 09:50 AM

What I think works quite nicely is that people immediately start in a peer group instead of being, for a period, the worse person in the dojo. A peer group is a powerful thing and I don't think detracts anything from the martial arts.

Actually I'll agree with that. When I started Iai and Jo, I managed to convince a couple of mates to start with me. Without them, I think I might have been too scared to start by myself! (Imagine a short Asian guy walking into a room full of big white guys in skirts with swords... How was I supposed to know they were blunt, dammit?!)

And definitely learning helped as I was not the only guy who knew nothing! ;) And if anything there's consolidation of "Hey man, did he say to turn this way or that way?" "That way I think..."

And by the time my friends got too slack to come, it was ok because I had already made friends with the people in the dojo, and I was hooked anyway - so I kept going! ^^

From a teaching perspective, I think it also more effectively shares the instructor's time if they are teaching a small group of people, rather than one person. I mean sure you might not get complete undivided attention, but as a beginner do you really need it? And half of them might stop coming after a month or so anyway, so why waste the instructor's time with a one-on-one with a student who might stop coming anyway! ;)

I know I certainly didn't need the complete undivided attention of a instructor as a beginner - I had enough trouble trying to get the basic movements down, without someone stopping me every 30 seconds to correct me. Sometime as a beginner it's nice to have a little bit of time to try and figure out how to do what you're shown, rather than being corrected every 30 seconds.

... But then again, if I had complete undivided attention as a beginner, maybe I wouldn't have so many bad habits now... ><

Like Andy says, don't discount the power of a peer group!

Newbie

12-09-2007, 10:20 AM

... But then again, if I had complete undivided attention as a beginner, maybe I wouldn't have so many bad habits now... ><

Wishful thinking, Marcus. Remember I've mostly had one-on-one training and... *shudder* I remember the look on your face with some of my bad habit.

Charles, all our jodoka come from a kendo background which got them into iai which got them interested in jo.

Anyway, Andy, some great suggestions. However...
Can we do an induction course like this with one shodan, one sankyu and one yonkyu? That's it, that's all we have for seitei jodo. In the last year there's only one person who I'm confident will take up jodo and, well, we already know about him!

Does anyone think the WEA one day course covering a first lesson kendo, iaido & jodo with good amount of breaks would be a waste of time? Would we be better of devoting them to different weekends (in light of what Andy said, anyway).

How did you get forty-five/twenty names? Was it sheer advertising? What did you do with the waiting list, how did you treat that?

As for jo & iai being on seperate days it's a great idea and I agree but can't be done. We're struggling for sempai to justify one training session a week. To get two he may as well be packing his bags.

Kendoka

12-09-2007, 10:59 AM

Newbie

12-09-2007, 11:05 AM

Our beginners course for kendo charges a fee. I was thinking if we ran a WEA one-dayer then if they joined, their seminar fee would come off their club fee. But of course, that requires talking to the club president and all that. The advantage of a one-day course covering all three would be that there wouldn't just be three guys and a chick standing around in a dojo, it truly would look like it's part of a larger community and no art is lesser than the other. Or were you saying don't run a one day course at all?

But again, do you guys think we can run an intro course with one shodan and two kyu grades? I've already been told I don't have a good enough understanding of jo to teach other people (Marcus, remember me trying to show Alison honte? ;p ) Also, the big question, what attracts people to jo? I feel if I know that, I'll have a better idea of how to make jodo appealing.

Marcus_P

12-09-2007, 03:41 PM

I don't remember saying that you didn't have a good enough understanding of jo to teach other people. Unless you're not referring to me. I do remember saying that teaching other people makes you think about how you do things and can sometimes lead to a better understanding and improvement of technique. I've had many an epiphany this way.

And if a Jodo beginner's course can be run with a Shodan assited by two Nikkyus, and later just a single Ikkyu, I would say it should be able to be run by a Shodan and a Sankyu and Yonkyu - depending on the size of the Beginner's Course (ours ended up being like 3 or 4 people, one person staying on).

Newbie

12-09-2007, 03:46 PM

It wasn't you, li'l buddy. It's a recent development.

Okay, so it can be done :)

Martch

12-09-2007, 05:50 PM

Andy, thanks a lot for that. Our kendo is going well but iai and jo have been lacking in new recruits and this might be a way forward. I'll have a chat with our glorious leader and see what he thinks (are you there Gavin?!). Where did you advertise the courses?

Charles - yes you're defintiely weirdos by the sounds of it! :)

Newbie - we ran a jodo session years ago with just two of us having shodan, so it can definitely be done. It's better than no practice as all and besides, teaching has a way of improving your own technique. Dont' be afraid of giving it a go just because there aren't enough high grades around, do your best and when things have got off the ground you'll have shown fighting spirit.

Andy_Watson

12-09-2007, 06:30 PM

Martin

We sent them to a couple of sports centres, a theatre I think and to everyone I knew, and onto work website forums. It is quite flabbergasting how out of how many hundreds of people who must have read the advert, how few of them are actually interested and come and do it. They were nice posters too, the iai one with Ishido Sensei on it and the jodo one with our two dojo glamour models (neither of them were me I should add).

Newbie

12-09-2007, 06:49 PM

My posters are nice. Well, they'll either work or not.

Umm.. Andy?
How did you get forty-five/twenty names? Was it sheer advertising? What did you do with the waiting list, how did you treat that?

Ta :) I'm really curious.

satsumaruma

12-09-2007, 07:02 PM

Arwen,

I think Andy has given some good food for thought here.

What I would add is about the 'advertising' aspect. I think you are right in that Kendo is the best known of the 3 disciplines mentioned and people have an image of its dynamism and this can be easily shown on posters etc. Iai and Jodo are more difficult to promote because they can come across as less dynamic or people just don't know what they are. I would suggest that any poster etc showing Jodo should be as dynamic as possible to get people 'excited' by the very idea of trying it. Something like a strike being made against the swordsman with a slower than usual shutter speed to allow the 'motion' of the jo to be captured.

I think an Introduction Day or open Day kind of event might work. Especially if you consider adverstising Jo to local martial arts dojos. When I did a TUnK event last year we advertised at Aikido, Judo, and Karate Dojos and quite a few turned up to give it a try. On the back of this, several took up Iai and Jo and continued with it for some time. Unfortunately we only have one student left but he is exceptionally keen so I think this was worth it.

I would consider promoting anything you decide upon in all your local Dojos (whatever they teach - even consider Tai Chi and yoga classes etc). Is there a college or university nearby. You could consider recruiting from 'Freshers Week' - lots of bright young things who may be keen to try something new and different. Tim (chidokan) has had some good results with this over the years; the downside is that after a few years they are likely to move on. But that may not be a bad thing for Jodo in Australia as it may get spread to new places which in the long run would be a good thing.

I think Andy's idea of the waiting list with an induction course is a possibility but I am not sure how well suited it would be to a smaller city. Andy is a Londoner ( or at least he lives in that area) and Martin is in Newcastle; both are vast sprawling conurbations. But it may be worth a try.

I think if you do run an Intoduction Day or course it would be great if you could as senior Sensei as a possible to come down and help to kick start things off and show people how good Jodo is (or can be if you practice long enough and hard enough). Would this be a possibility?

The other thing you will need is spare Jo to lend to people - can you afford this? If not You will need to secure some funding from somewhere. Will you organisation help you or your local authority?

At the end of the day you can only try your best and see what comes of it. If your local Aussies aint keen on it they won't do it; all you can do is keep trying.

Lee

Andy_Watson

12-09-2007, 11:03 PM

My posters are nice. Well, they'll either work or not.

Umm.. Andy?

Ta :) I'm really curious.

The forty five names were just people who had expressed an interest in joining and while we had had a full dojo we put them on a waiting list. As Lee puts it though, we are very close to London and had someone nearly every month wanting to join.

Lee makes a good point about dynamism on the jodo posters - we used two of our foremost female members to demonstrate the elegance and grace of the art but they also managed to combine that with some kickass feeling about it. We didn't get many female applicants from that but we didn't seem to get any knuckle draggers either.

Newbie

12-09-2007, 11:14 PM

Thanks Sats, actually read this before I spoke to you but was at work so didn't have time to reply.

The other thing you will need is spare Jo to lend to people - can you afford this? If not You will need to secure some funding from somewhere. Will you organisation help you or your local authority?

The club has some spare jo and bokken. We've used them before.

When I did a TUnK event last year we advertised at Aikido, Judo, and Karate Dojos and quite a few turned up to give it a try. On the back of this, several took up Iai and Jo and continued with it for some time. Unfortunately we only have one student left but he is exceptionally keen so I think this was worth it.

This might seem like a stupid question, but how do you adverstise your own art at other peoples' dojo?

Iai and Jodo are more difficult to promote because they can come across as less dynamic or people just don't know what they are.

What's this? An artwork challenge ;) I think I'm up to it.

course it would be great if you could as senior Sensei as a possible to come down and help to kick start things off and show people how good Jodo is (or can be if you practice long enough and hard enough). Would this be a possibility?

Just might be able to swing that... things like this and inductions and intro courses and O-Week (or your freshers week) I think pretty much need to wait till next year. But if we can get the legwork done now, that'll make it that much easier. The other thing is even if we get noone come down, we can certainly make use of a sensei's time! ;p Posters and flyers though, those I can do.

Oh, and Sats, you sound like a Pom on the phone. It's hella funny.

We sent them to a couple of sports centres, a theatre I think and to everyone I knew, and onto work website forums. It is quite flabbergasting how out of how many hundreds of people who must have read the advert, how few of them are actually interested and come and do it. They were nice posters too, the iai one with Ishido Sensei on it and the jodo one with our two dojo glamour models (neither of them were me I should add).

You poor chook. I'm trying already to prepare myself if there's zero response. I've suggested to sempai and the state pres that for posters we hit: community libraries, MA shops, shopping centre notice boards, anime shops, Japanese shops, roleplaying shops and the unis.

Martch

12-09-2007, 11:16 PM

On a bit of a side note I think there are trends in what people look for in martial arts, often linked to current films, tv and games releases. We had a marked jump in people wanting to do iai and kendo for a good year after the Last Samurai and Zatoichi came out. The current fad is more for ultimate fighting stuff on Sky TV, jujitsu etc It'll swing back again some time no doubt.

Newbie

12-09-2007, 11:24 PM

Yeah, awkward. Was saying this evening you can't really put on a poster "Body crapped out? Knees falling apart? Unfit? Jodo's the MA for you!" Kinda attracts the wrong people..

Andy, the thought of having a full dojo.... wow. That makes me almost as misty eyed as thinking about this year's Nats being on the Gold Coast... I suggested to my training partner today that if (not if! when, dammit) when we get a new bod in, sempai's most likely gonna have to dash off so he and I at least, if not the other boys, all go for a beer or coffee and invite the new person (ha-ha, tradition - new person gets their first drink bought for them, sit down, have a chat) and try and get them relaxed in our company, chatting, that kinda thing. It really is kinda uncomfortable if you just walk into the dojo, train and leave without really knowing anyone and not being able to ask questions that might occur t you half an hour after you've left. Like Marcus mentioned - he stayed cos he made friends. I'm not gonna force them or pressure them to go out for coffee/beer keiko or make them tell us their life story but if the offer is there and is geniune it'll go a long way. But we need to get new bods first..

Andy_Watson

13-09-2007, 01:48 AM

I can't even imagine martial arts without the after-training beer!

Fred27

13-09-2007, 02:01 AM

This might seem like a stupid question, but how do you adverstise your own art at other peoples' dojo?

Pub
I can't even imagine martial arts without the after-training beer!

Well...I think Andy has got the right idea there too. :)

Newbie

13-09-2007, 12:40 PM

Hey! I just had a killer idea - one of the aikido sensei down here is really nice. I should be able to approach him directly and ask if he minds if we approach his students. Especially if we get a Saturday afternoon time slot cos his students train Saturday mornings so no clash in times and I've found those that do aikijo like jodo and I have seen this group using jo on at least one occassion (but they train at a different location now).

satsumaruma

13-09-2007, 05:36 PM

This might seem like a stupid question, but how do you adverstise your own art at other peoples' dojo?

Oh, and Sats, you sound like a Pom on the phone. It's hella funny.

You poor chook. I'm trying already to prepare myself if there's zero response. I've suggested to sempai and the state pres that for posters we hit: community libraries, MA shops, shopping centre notice boards, anime shops, Japanese shops, roleplaying shops and the unis.

In Order.

It is probably easier to advertise "your own art" at other dojos simply because they are more likely to have an idea of what it is you do than someone who has never done martial arts before. I think all you need is some exciting looking posters advertising the particular art with all the necessary Info on them. If you can, it might be good to go down to the dojo and talk to the Sensei there and see if you can promote your own dojo. Some will not be receptive (and that is their right) but I am sure you will find many who are receptive because what you wish to promote is likely to be 'complimentary' to what that dojo studies. I know that a local Wado Ryu karate sensei is urging all his students to find the time to learn Iai or kendo as he believes it will greatly improve their karate.

Sound like a Pom? Golly, who'd have thought an Englishman would sound like an Englishman.:)
Of course, i am sure you realise that you sound like someone out of Neighbours or Skippy, the Bush Kangaroo.:) Although you did sound quite posh - who'd have ever thought that Aussies can do posh?:laugh:

I would be surprised if you get zero response - I think a great many will come and have a try if only out of curiosity. And hopefully some will stick around. I now know that Adelaide has 1 million people living there so you have quite a big catchment area. Another thing it may be worth considering is to start off with practising Iai and Jodo on the same day. Iai is likely to attract more people in the first instance, so if you put on sessions that are, for example, three hours long; Then you could do Iai for the first two hours and Jodo for the last one ( or some variation of this as you see fit). This way people will practice both arts and once they are doing it they arre more likely to get to understand it and hopefully stick with it.

I can't even imagine martial arts without the after-training beer!

Nor me. But what about the pre-training beer? :eek:( no names please:laugh:)

Hey! I just had a killer idea - one of the aikido sensei down here is really nice. I should be able to approach him directly and ask if he minds if we approach his students. Especially if we get a Saturday afternoon time slot cos his students train Saturday mornings so no clash in times and I've found those that do aikijo like jodo and I have seen this group using jo on at least one occassion (but they train at a different location now).

Agree- see above. I think you could approach a few other Sensei as well.

Lee

Newbie

14-09-2007, 01:09 AM

*tst-tst* What's that Skip? *tst-tst" The pilot doesn't have any pants on?

I do NOT sound like a bleeding kangaroo.

I'm waiting to find out the sensei of the aikido dojo that's always been friendly (or at least was when we were sharing floor space) and have contacted my old tai chi institute but they're a McDojo so don't know how ameniable they'll be.

We're gonna have to have jo and iai on the same day cos sempai'll only be able to make one training session a week. I'm thinking the same "whilst I'm here, might as well stick around and try this jo thing". I'm hoping my passion and enthusiasm for jodo carry for it not being as flashy as iaido! We're only going to have about an hour for each though. Unless you're willing to come babysit? One of sempai's kids'll be in the dojo soon enough but she's a bit young for jodo or iaido, she'll be starting kendo shortly.

Post-keiko beer's never something that's really done here. I know, I know - makes me sad, too. I think it would be an awesome way to make new lasses and lads "one of the boys" straight off the bat and feel more comfortable which means they're more likely to stick.

I haven't heard back on my flyers or posters yet and don't wanna print or do anything like that before I have the club's approval. However I'm taking (hopefully) some more photos for at least an iai poster Saturday morning. Unfortunately there'll only be one jodoka there so that would make a really, really boring poster. The club pres should be there so he might mention something to me then.

satsumaruma

14-09-2007, 07:10 AM

*tst-tst* What's that Skip? *tst-tst" The pilot doesn't have any pants on?

I do NOT sound like a bleeding kangaroo.

.

I don't recall Skippy ever bleeding! But then I am no expert on Aus TV.

And I am sure I wrote that you sound like someone OUT OF (neighbours) AND Skippy; not that you sounded like Skippy.....although now you mention it:laugh:

Unless you're willing to come babysit?

Sure, you pay the air fare.

Post-keiko beer's never something that's really done here. I know, I know - makes me sad, too.

Doesn't quite fit in with the macho image Aussie men like to depict themselves as does it?

Newbie

14-09-2007, 10:39 AM

Sat's you're a complete pelican at times.

Doesn't quite fit in with the macho image Aussie men like to depict themselves as does it?

Sorry, forgot you like your beer hot, your teeth bad, have a massive beer gut and are all soccer (sorry "football") hooligans.

Anyway, the main kicker - exactly what is it about jodo that attracts people? Is it really just iaidoka add it on to their training cos half the iaidoka do it too? Is it only them and aikidoka who enjoyed aikijo? How'd you all hear about jo, first see jo, why'd you take it up?

Reiver

14-09-2007, 04:27 PM

I was having a chat recently with a 6th kendoka, who also happens to be 3rd dan Jodo, and he made a point that Jodo should have more mass appeal, as Jodo is more callisthenic and it's cheaper to buy the equipment, and you still get to hit people, albeit in a very controlled manner.

Newbie

14-09-2007, 05:40 PM

I know, I know. Just doesn't seem to appeal to people. It's hard to market as "it's cheap, it's easy and you don't get hurt and can do if you're body's all crapped out, too". Hmm...

satsumaruma

14-09-2007, 07:33 PM

Sat's you're a complete pelican at times.

?

What? I am like a crossing?

Sorry, forgot you like your beer hot, your teeth bad, have a massive beer gut and are all soccer (sorry "football") hooligans.

No no. we like our Ladies hot and our beer brown ( we don't like to drink stuff that is the same colour as weewee). We like our ladies very bad and our teeth in a glass by the side of the bed. We have a massive beer TENT and go to German beer festivals where the beer 'ist sehr gut' (albeit looking like weewee). And football hooliganism was in the seventies -I can see you in your platform shoes and Flower-power smock:laugh::laugh:

Harry Jones

14-09-2007, 10:28 PM

Ooops there goes my Kendo World Forum Cherry.

Hello Chaps

We're gonna have to have jo and iai on the same day cos sempai'll only be able to make one training session a week. I'm thinking the same "whilst I'm here, might as well stick around and try this jo thing".

Anyways you could just do what we did and make Jodo compulsory after Iaido. Harsh I know, but it worked and we now have a strong Jodo dojo.

I'm hoping my passion and enthusiasm for jodo carry for it not being as flashy as iaido!

I agree with you on this, nothing attracts people to try out Jodo like seeing people working hard and having fun. I'm not sure Jo is less flashy that Iai though

Harry Jones

satsumaruma

14-09-2007, 11:05 PM

Ooops there goes my Kendo World Forum Cherry.

Hello Chaps

I agree with you on this, nothing attracts people to try out Jodo like seeing people working hard and having fun. I'm not sure Jo is less flashy that Iai though

Harry Jones

Hello Harry,

welcome to the forums. Congrats on your iaido godan (assuming I have the right HJ and that what I've been told is corrrect).

Oh and jo is less flashy than Iai - well it is when I do it.:laugh::eek:

Newbie

14-09-2007, 11:17 PM

Godan? Woo-hoo! Well done :D

Urghh.. I feel really uneasy sounding like I'm contradicting a senior.. but yeah, I have to agree with Sats. Swords flash, jo staffs don't. What we really need is a big block buster movie where the main character uses a jo instead of katana.. but that's just wishful thinking.

I mean, the wonders of jodo could fill pages and why it's so AWESOME but it just doesn't look that way to the untrained eye of the budo-newb or general public. That's the problem. How to make jodo marketable?

And Sats - you have pelican crossings?? And I was born in '78 so you'd only see me in nappies in the seventies. NO BAD SATS GET THAT THOUGHT OUT OF YOUR HEAD.

I don't know if making jodo compulsory would be a good or popular idea. We currently only have one more jodoka than iaidoka. All of our boys also do kendo, one does aikido, one teaches karate and I think does koryu, plus two are engaged, one is doing his PhD. Making it compulsory might put them off doing iaido as too much of a strain on their time which is already stretched. It's an interesting thought and I'll suggest it to my sempai though.

Harry Jones

14-09-2007, 11:44 PM

(assuming I have the right HJ and that what I've been told is corrrect).

Yes you have the right HJ, and thank you

Oh and jo is less flashy than Iai - well it is when I do it

fair enough, its probably just my Jodo that is flashier that my Iaido, but that says more about the state of my Iai than the flashness of Jodo.

Harry

Budo Angel

15-09-2007, 01:35 AM

Ooops there goes my Kendo World Forum Cherry
my Jodo that is flashier that my Iaido
Yes, our lovely Harry likes to "flash" a lot...go get 'em girl...and readily admits to it to the KW fraternity !
don't know if making jodo compulsory would be a good or popular idea
An interesting notion worthy of another thread...I for one, wouldn't have entertained or done Jodo had it not be "compulsory" to remain in the Iaido dojo ...still better educated than ignorant !

Marcus_P

15-09-2007, 03:43 AM

An interesting notion worthy of another thread...I for one, wouldn't have entertained or done Jodo had it not be "compulsory" to remain in the Iaido dojo ...still better educated than ignorant !

But do you enjoy it? Like if you moved and it wasn't compulsory to do Jodo, or you had to go to a different dojo than your Iaido dojo to do Jodo, would you do it?

Newbie

15-09-2007, 07:01 PM

We're prolly only gonna have two hours for training, so an hour of iai and an hour of jo. That means I reckon a lot will stick around and try their hand at jodo. Even if they don't straight away, they'll see us jumping straight in whilst they're packing up and getting changed. And our numbers will never be great so it's not like we can't gently encourage them to take up jodo. Heh, and it means you get more for your money at seminars ;) But cos people aren't instantly attracted to jodo is why I'm pushing to plug iaido and kendo at the same time. Come for the iai... stay for the jo :p The kendoka see us practising occassionally iai and jo before kendo when we can be arsed on a Saturday morning once in a blue moon but few of them show interest but a couple of them are koryu iaidoka already.

Our club pres is flat out getting ready for gradings and seminar being held in two weeks for kendo so he's got all that to organise along with the visiting sensei, etc which is why he hasn't got back to me which is fair. Whilst I'm desperate to get the ball rolling, it's coming up to the end of the academic year which isn't the best time to get new people (when all the o/s students are going home or studying for exams) and we don't have a kendo grading panel in SA so it's fair that this takes priority at the moment (kendo we only get gradings here twice a year and iaido/jodo once a year).

I did take pics of two of my boys today doing iai though (i say that though one outranks me in iai and the other is equal grade) and within the next few weeks I'll get my sempai and training partner over so I can get sempai doing some iai and he and my training partner doing jodo.

And you're all right - it's much harder to show iaido being dynamic than kendo but hey, if it's retouching pics I'm game for the challenge!

satsumaruma

15-09-2007, 09:06 PM

Yes, our lovely Harry likes to "flash" a lot...go get 'em girl...and readily admits to it to the KW fraternity !

!

I guess my understanding of the phrase "to flash" isn't what's on offer here?:laugh:

But cos people aren't instantly attracted to jodo is why I'm pushing to plug iaido and kendo at the same time.

I think this is wise. get them interested in at least having a try. Exude enthusiasm but don't be too eager.

The kendoka see us practising occassionally iai and jo before kendo when we can be arsed on a Saturday morning once in a blue moon but few of them show interest but a couple of them are koryu iaidoka already.

is it ant wonder that kendo gets (often unfairly) tagged as being done by neanderthals who just want to bash things. I am aware that there are lots of kendoka who hate doing kendo no kata simply because they don't see the point of it believing it has no value to kendo. its this mentaility you are often up against - although sometimes it is just about having enough time to practice something else as well as kendo. And if kendo is your first love then you will do that over other MA.

Newbie

15-09-2007, 10:58 PM

Yeah, I know plenty o' kendoka that hate kata and are only interested in kendo. However, today I jumped in and did kendo no kata cos they had odd numbers. First time since the injury. I was expecting a midget to leap out and attack me the whole time though. They stopped jigeiko early and everyone did as much kendo no kata as they knew. Everyone except our two shodan (who I think are going for nidan) only did 1-3 and they did all seven tachi. Also, our numbers aren't huge here, it's in relation that it seems so many. Without me today there was eleven. In the club, that I know of, there's the three who do seitei kendo (two of those do seitei jodo), and about four or so again who do koryu iaido, some that do jodo, some teach and do karate, etc. But you can take any single MA, whether it's kendo, tai chi, hapkido or jodo and spend an entire lifetime striving to learn it. I just find and have been told that my jodo helps my iaido, my iaido helps my kendo and prolly soon my iaido and jodo will plateau till I can do kendo again. (I wrote an essay on it but it's a pretty crap essay).

And if kendo is your first love then you will do that over other MA.

That can be said of any art that's your first love. I'll take jodo over kendo or iaido any day if I have the choice unless there's something like a grading or I haven't been able to train in one of the others for a while.

Budo Angel

16-09-2007, 01:27 AM

there are lots of kendoka who hate doing kendo no kata simply because they don't see the point of it believing it has no value to kendo. its this mentaility you are often up against
Yeah, I know plenty o' kendoka that hate kata and are only interested in kendo
I think you both hit the nail on the head to some degree...as my Japanese Kendo sensei once said in observation (broad, not personal to anyone) he felt not only Japanese but younger westerners saw Kendo as SHINAI-do. You wouldn't believe the LOW numbers of people who turn up to Kendo kata class before a shinai-kendo class...regardless of the kata being 'forced' upon them, and failing a kata element, its something to be done for passing gradings. (ps. no hint of tarnishing all Kendo-ka with this mindset, far from it). So many are interested in "shinai-do" :emb:

The Kendo-no-kata, I heard was brought in (amongst many reasons) was for showing the more 'applicable' CUTS with a sword shaped thingy, bearing relation to the "hits" with the totally straight bamboo hitting thingy. Has it improved Kendo ? Debatable, is the answer I hear many KENDO-ka say.

So with this in mind, you're gonna be fighting a battle to convince Kendo people the value of Jodo. Hell there is the battle of convincing Iaido-ka to try Jodo !

For those who only do Iaido (never/not Kendo), then I saw/see the merit of 'making' people do Jodo, simply to realise the importance of a partner reacting, rather than listening to thin air going "swossssh"

So in answer to your question Marcus P, my (gently) argument has been, if the individual does another budo that involves the partner aspect, then perhaps they should not be "forced" to do Jodo...after all, as raised, time and "too many" hobbies, is always a constraint :p

Jodo has its many merits which others are far more qualified to state; but I believe the exam question you all raise, is how to display, sell (other wrong words, jump on me) these merits, to the non-Jodo and unconvinced/sceptical Budo fraternity :confused:

my understanding of the phrase "to flash" isn't what's on offer here
You don't know what Miss Harry 5 dan definition of being "flashier" is - Jodo might get some more punters :) wahey. The jo itself isn't a sexy weapon (a 4 foot wooden pole ?!) but Harry sometimes makes Jodo flashy & sexy because she's passionate about Jodo...so there.:ko: (add to that red lipstick, and most men will be sold on the Jodo...)

satsumaruma

16-09-2007, 01:32 AM

Miss Harry being "flasher". The jo itself isn't a sexy weapon (a 4 foot wooden pole ?!) but Harry sometimes makes Jodo flashy & sexy because she's passionate

Rachel, I love it when you talk dirrrrty:D:D

Oroshi

16-09-2007, 01:33 AM

Sorry, a bit off topic here, but: I'd love to try doing jodo. I don't know if I can fully commit to it at the moment, but at some point in the future I definitely want to take it up. As I've said before, I love TUNK/TANK and HNIR (all paired kata), and watching the jodo grading at the summer seminar this year was enough to get me interested. I think it would teach me a lot about the sword as well as the jo itself.

Incidentally, I've never done kendo.

satsumaruma

16-09-2007, 02:04 AM

Richard,

do you know the full TAnK set? If so, are you good enough to teach it to rank beginners at it?

Lee

Oroshi

16-09-2007, 02:08 AM

Unfortunately not. I wasn't taught the whole set, just a couple of kata... and although I can remember those ones, I doubt I'm good enough to teach them. I can talk it over with my sempai and see if we can come up with anything between us though.

I originally learnt them on one of Oshita sensei's "let's do something fun!" days :D

Andy_Watson

16-09-2007, 02:30 AM

TANK = Tachi Ai no Kurai?

satsumaruma

16-09-2007, 02:34 AM

Tsumi Ai no Kurai.

In simple terms; the kneeling version of Tachi Uchi no Kurai

Andy_Watson

16-09-2007, 02:35 AM

I had just remembered while in the kitchen that it was that, rushed back to the PC to write it and found Lee had already replied...

There ya have it.

satsumaruma

16-09-2007, 02:43 AM

Well, I Like to help where I can.

there's more to the Intrepid Hero than lighthearted quips you know

Neil Gendzwill

16-09-2007, 02:57 AM

Newbie

16-09-2007, 05:40 PM

- teaching our beginners seperately and in English

What exactly do you mean?

- our sensei: when you're promoting traditional Japanese martial arts, having a strong Japanese sensei is helpful

Yeah, been thinking about that. It doesn't look great having on posters "Come and Learn Japanese Swordsmanship/Jo" and the names are very obviously western. But what can ya do if you don't have a Japanese sensei. Actually, we don't have a sensei at all. Ah well. One day..

satsumaruma

16-09-2007, 08:06 PM

I'm not sure what more you guys can do. The things that have helped us grow as a kendo club are (in no particular order)

- central location
- association with the Y gives us instant good reputation
- limiting our beginners intake to twice a year to make it easier on us and also to give them a group of peers to start with
- teaching our beginners seperately and in English
- poster advertising
- net presence, both website and me blathering on in various forums
- demonstrations and booth at local cultural festival
- our sensei: when you're promoting traditional Japanese martial arts, having a strong Japanese sensei is helpful

Does limiting beginner intake to twice a year work? I am not doubting you but trying to assess if there are any negatives to doing it like that.

Currently we take people as and when they turn up. The probelms with this include;

-spending time with people who may not stay which is time which could be better spent with existing students.
-Reverting back to absolute basics ( not bad per se but takes much longer)
- not knowing how much extra equipment to bring to each class - just in case

the plus side is that you are not turning people away - and they may stay with it once they have tried it; but if they don't try it they may look for something else.

I know of some dojos in UK who do Induction sessions a few times a year for the reasons you outline. They also note that it is easire to write a Lesson Plan because you have a list of attendees. Some require money paid up front for several lessons (some do it by time - two months worth say which encourages attendance. Whilst others do it by number of lessons - 8 say and this cane be spraed over a longer time and does allow for holidays, illness etc). I also know of some who include BKA fees, kneepads and a bokuto in the price.

may I ask how you organises this becaues it seems eminently sensible and I think we could adapt it in sme format. the main thing I worry about with it is its viability in small towns - the places where it seems to be done over here is in the larger cities.

Lee

Neil Gendzwill

17-09-2007, 01:23 AM

What exactly do you mean?Many dojo just throw their beginners in with the advanced class and let them sort it out - the aikido dojo I belonged to was like that. Others have instruction mostly in Japanese - not a problem I expect for you.
But what can ya do if you don't have a Japanese sensei.Not much - I'm just pointing out one reason for our success. Trying to sell people on a dojo without an instructor is pretty tough.
Does limiting beginner intake to twice a year work?In my experience it does, although we've had this discussion before and people have disagreed with me.

Most people don't really expect that an activity is going to accept beginners constantly. They expect there to be formal registrations and so forth. So this whole thing isn't as restrictive as you might think.
Currently we take people as and when they turn up. The problems with this include;[snip]
Yep. One problem you may not be aware of is that it is very intimidating for people to start something like this alone. Doing it our way ensures they join with a group of other beginners. In this way they develop a relationship with their fellow beginners, understand that they are not the only one that is struggling, and in general have a better chance of continuing.

Another problem is that the beginners who have already started get very annoyed when people keep joining their class and you have to spend time bringing new people up to speed. The feeling is, "I had it together enough to start at the beginning of term, why should I be paying the price for this clown?"

Plus there's all the convenience for you as a club with limited instructional resources.
the plus side is that you are not turning people away - and they may stay with it once they have tried it; but if they don't try it they may look for something else.Maybe. But if they're really interested they will wait for the next intake.
may I ask how you organise thisOur year is divided into three 4 month terms, starting in September, January and May. We only take beginners in September and January, the summer term is our time to relax. We accept beginners for a couple of weeks each term, then cut it off. The first class is free, after that they have to register for the term and buy a shinai.

I agree that for very small clubs and in small towns this may not work. If your club is 3 guys chipping together each week to rent a squash court, I think you'll have to build it up a bit before the termed registration thing works.

satsumaruma

17-09-2007, 05:19 AM

Thanks for this Neil.

actually, our Iai clubs run quite healthily it is the kendo which is suffering a little at the moment.

Will discuss your thoughts with the others who run the clubs.

thanks once again

Lee

Newbie

18-09-2007, 12:24 AM

Many dojo just throw their beginners in with the advanced class and let them sort it out - the aikido dojo I belonged to was like that. Others have instruction mostly in Japanese - not a problem I expect for you.

That sounds... awkward and not good for retention rate! Kendo I was in beginners' course first off and the vast majority of my iaido and jodo has been largely one on one. I've been really lucky in some ways.

Not much - I'm just pointing out one reason for our success. Trying to sell people on a dojo without an instructor is pretty tough.

We have an instructor, just he's a sempai not a sensei. Unfortunately you can't force someone to move interstate cos they're a fifth dan. I'm trying to sort out all this crap for him cos he has some big time constraints but looks like Sunday afternoons are going to be a goer at this stage - YAY! WOOT!

In my experience it does, although we've had this discussion before and people have disagreed with me.
Most people don't really expect that an activity is going to accept beginners constantly. They expect there to be formal registrations and so forth. So this whole thing isn't as restrictive as you might think. SNIP GOOD TO BE IN GROUP STUFF

I was kinda worried about that cos numbers for jodo (oh yeah, and iai, too) dribble in so slowly but Kristian's liking the idea of beginners' courses more and I'm beginning to think it could work and your other points are very valid, especially with stopping and starting and having group cammraderie. It's gonna be tough enough for a shodan to be taking everyone at different levels so to have at least one group at the same level should make it much easier.

Fred27

18-09-2007, 02:44 AM

At our dojo we got two instructors. One sensei and one assistant instructor. We take on beginners twice a year at the start of each school-term. We go by the number of new students each term to decide if we create two seperate groups (beginners and advanced). If there are plenty beginners we create two groups practicing at seperate times (1 hour for beginners then 2 hours advanced). Otherwise we put them all in one group (2 hours total) and let the advanced students sacrifice SOME of their "quality time training" to help the beginners by being uchidachi/shidachi as the situation calls for it.

Newbie

18-09-2007, 11:15 AM

What kinda numbers do you need before you'll split a class and how do you advertise?

Fred27

18-09-2007, 02:04 PM

What kinda numbers do you need before you'll split a class and how do you advertise?

In our case we split the groups if we have around 10-12 beginners that have started to practice on a regular basis. 10-12 beginners would (again in our case) go from wall to wall when they are lined up which makes it hard for advanced students to join in. If this happens then we make two groups.
12 beginners make 6 pairs which is manageble.

As for advertising. Our oldest method is nailing posters out on every school, shoppingmall and just about everywhere else there is a messageboard. Its suprisingly effective. We also put out ads in the local day newspapers, though this costs a bit of money. I think that a couple of years ago we made either a radio or TV ad. One of the best methods of attracting new people is doing a demonstration. We hold at least one demonstration a year downtown. We do this normally before school begins in August.

Oh, please note: Our Jodo section belongs to a club which includes Karate, Jujutsu, Aikido so we have a bit more money and people to help do all the advertising work.

Newbie

18-09-2007, 02:11 PM

That's amazing. But what's your retention rate like? I've seen classes of twenty kendo beginners with four maybe continuing.

Fred27

18-09-2007, 07:12 PM

That's amazing. But what's your retention rate like? I've seen classes of twenty kendo beginners with four maybe continuing.

It varies from term to term. When I started Jodo there were 10 people that hung in there for about half the term afterwhich they started to drop out. After the terms end there was only me and one more left. When I started we had 2 groups since we were so many right from the start and because there were quite alot who stayed, but since then (2 ½ years), we havent used the 2 groups-system for lack of (that many) students.

Right now we have around 8 new students, though we are still in the recruitment-period (3 weeks total then we cease taking on new students). Going by my own experience, I would say 4 of these will stay for the whole term which is a normal figure.

Newbie

18-09-2007, 10:39 PM

Fair enough. That's not too bad, if that's roughly what you get each period. What do your posters say? I'm unsure how to plug jodo.

Fred27

19-09-2007, 04:17 AM

Fair enough. That's not too bad, if that's roughly what you get each period. What do your posters say? I'm unsure how to plug jodo.

I dont have one of those posters online I'm afraid, but essentially we try to be keep the text at a minimum. We dont put in alot of text other than the names of the art, the club, adress, training-times and a VERY brief description of the art. (might sound like alot of text but actually its not that much) We use no photos of any kind or any sort of artistic rendering

We want people to be lured into the dojo with a poster that says "Hey check this out! Go to this adress at this time and check it out! Might be fun!"...instead of: "Jodo was founded in 1600 by muso gonnosuke in a duel by miyamoto musashi...blah blah blah...two people, one sword one jo blah blah blah strict etiquette tradition rei saya kata uchidachi.."

Eventhough the above is interesting for us guys already into Budo, it might not be interesting for a beginner with no idea of what to expect. Might even scare them off. All of the above details come in time anyways.

As for the design, I still dont have a poster online, but we use the same colors as on our website (and same logotype): http://www.budokai.se/index.html
If I can I'll post a poster (!) online so you can see.

And final disclaimer: This is of course just our advertising philosophy not THE advertising philosophy. There are plenty of views on how a poster should look like so its all relative to individual opinions. So my advice: play around with different layouts, post them either online or for your friends and get more than one opinion on them.

Neil Gendzwill

19-09-2007, 04:21 AM

Not jodo, but you can find our poster here (www.kendo-sask.com/misc/poster.doc). And I agree - simple, just enough facts to get them interested and so they know where to go.

Aden

19-09-2007, 09:07 AM

Hi Newbie

On the plus side, since Adelaide is a 1.1 million plus big city (more than 6 times the population of Wollongong) with limited reputable budo if you can break out past the 3 people training together stage you are actually pretty well placed in the long term and you have got the support of the AKR.

Based on our experience here in Wollongong the hardest part (other than the transient nature of our uni population) is the bootstrapping until you get to the @ 2/3 dan level of instructor (so you can have that bit at the bottom of Neil's advert saying chief instructor is xxx which gives credibility) with at least 2 instructors so as to maintain continuity when work / family etc make one go missing. While our Kendo arm was created by a sandan it took @ 6 years for Bob Brown and myself to go from 2 blokes doing other arts before kendo with occasional interested others to getting our dan grades and having dan graded students in Iaido and Jodo.

More than advertising credibility having a more senior practitoner lets you market the art to people like aikido and jujitsu that have their own jo and sword forms but may want more focussed weapons training (these people make up the majority of our iai and jo numbers at present, flow from kendo is very small).

In Wollongong we use 3 levels of advertising / handout material - the main one just says UOW Kendo Club, Kendo/Jodo/Iaido, listing times/places/contact details - even less than Neil's current one since we don't list sensei or affiliation, and then we have 2 more each with more textual detail - 1 page single sided, 1 page double sided (originally based on something Neil emailed me @1996 when I knew even less than I know now and needed help) that we give at open days, demos etc if people ask if we have anything further.

Since we haven't revised our recruiting for several years I am pleased to see the info in this thread. I think we need to follow Fred's example and have more pictures of girls doing arts since 2 of our current jo beginners are female.

Our first one which we have A4 and A3 versions of just says

__________________________________________________ _
THE WAY OF THE JAPANESE SWORD

ウロンゴン大学剣道部
UNIVERSITY OF WOLLONGONG KENDO CLUB
剣道- 居合道- 杖道
KENDO - IAIDO - JODO

CLASSICAL JAPANESE WEAPON TRAINING

Contact
David Bunder 4228 1584 (AH)
Aden Steinke 4221 3372 (BH)

Or find us on the web at
http://www.uow.edu.au/~aden/kendo.html
_______________________________________________

This text runs down the middle with a couple of pictures of bogu on the sides. As you can see we emphasis sword, jo is the little brother of our 3 arts, also has the worst timeslot for training. However it is one we always demonstrate when doing public performances.

Aden

Neil Gendzwill

19-09-2007, 09:15 AM

We've since revised that pamphlet we hand out to beginners. It used to have a lot of history of kendo stuff. It now consists of a very brief descriptive paragraph on kendo, and the rest is much more practical stuff - how to prep your shinai, Japanese terminology, equipment costs, names of the instructors, important upcoming dates in the semester, social events etc. The latest version is here (www.kendo-sask.com/misc/pamphlet7.doc) if anyone finds it useful. Modify it with your own dojo's info, print it out double-sided on 8.5 X 11 paper and fold it in half to get a nice little pamphlet.

Also, we print that poster on 11 X 17 paper so that it stands out from the rest of the letter-sized posters around.

Charles Lockhar

20-09-2007, 10:15 AM

Apologies for thread drift, but with regards to Seitei Jodo, at what rank can you teach or lead a study group? Is there some teaching cert. a person needs? How does that work?

-Charles

Newbie

20-09-2007, 11:03 AM

My sempai wouldn't start teaching us until he got his shodan. But I wouldn't be surprised if you find it's regional and situational. No teaching cert, either, just your dan grade exams :)

Charles Lockhar

20-09-2007, 04:17 PM

My sempai wouldn't start teaching us until he got his shodan. But I wouldn't be surprised if you find it's regional and situational. No teaching cert, either, just your dan grade exams :)

What do they need you to know for shodan? Is there some place a person could visit intermittently and train, and maybe over time get graded?

-Charles

Newbie

20-09-2007, 08:05 PM

I'm a beginner. Can someone else field this? I could take a punt but I'd most likely be wrong :D Though we do have a few regional people in this country doing iai (not sure about jo). They get down to seminars when they can and grade when they can. Can take years that way, though. I thought there was some decent seitei in Hawaii though?

Newbie

20-09-2007, 11:25 PM

Off topic but I wanna share it with my favourite buds - I'm an artist! A real artist! Last week the lady that always serves me at a convenience store after work told me it was her last week this week cos she'd bought a shop and was turning it into a hairdressers. I asked if she had business cards yet. She said no and so I asked the shop's name. Said she was thinking about Gossip. So I ask her to give me a pen and paper. I mock something she loved so I promised to do something proper on the computer. I mocked it up (took about three hours last Thursday night) printed it off and gave it to her Tuesday night. Well, it's already on the shop window! The signwriter wouldn't change it a bit (just the font) and said it was great and really professional! I can't believe it! All I've ever done is play with photos like these: http://arwenspiccies.tripod.com/

Gives me faith in my budo posters, though :D Maybe they will work, after all!

Marcus_P

21-09-2007, 01:06 AM

What do they need you to know for shodan? Is there some place a person could visit intermittently and train, and maybe over time get graded?

-Charles

For Shodan in Seitei Jodo you need to perform the first five Kata in the Shodan examination. You need to know at least the first five Kata and all 12 Tandoku... ;)

Newbie

21-09-2007, 01:15 AM

and the written element, Marcus.

Charles Lockhar

21-09-2007, 04:03 AM

For Shodan in Seitei Jodo you need to perform the first five Kata in the Shodan examination. You need to know at least the first five Kata and all 12 Tandoku... ;)

I'm guessing that you need to be affiliated with a club, work through the kyu grades, spend time in grade, etc? I'm assuming a person doesn't just show up at a grading event, whip out the 5 kata, and waltz off with shodan.

Here in Hawai'i, advancement through the kyu grades is generally on the recommendation of your sensei, up to 1st kyu, which is the first grade you have to actually test for. Is seitei jo similar?

-Charles

Charles Lockhar

21-09-2007, 04:04 AM

I thought there was some decent seitei in Hawaii though?

I've never heard of any seitei jo in Hawai'i, but I'd be very interested to learn about it. Anybody?

-Charles

Aden

21-09-2007, 08:43 AM

In Australian seitei you test through 4th to 1st kyu, then shodan etc... The tests start with just tandoku then progress, the intent being that by the time you test on the 5 kata (both sides) and paper for shodan you have already been tested on the kihon and on the first three kata at a more introductory level and have a couple of years experience cunder your belt.

The candidate can be skipped a kyu grade if it is warranted at best going 3rd kyu in their first grading then 1st at their next if deemed deserving but since the first establishment gradings in 2000 where people were tested by a panel of ZNKR visitors (one of the party leaders was including Namitome sensei) to determine their appropriate level which gave out a lot of 1st kyus to people with practice but not prior grading opportunity we do not allow challending for a kyu grade without time in practice as a financial member of a dojo (for 4 kyu) and time in grade after that, and recommendation of either their sensei or state official (for those without a sensei).

Aden
University of Wollongong Kendo Club
http://www.uow.edu.au/~aden

Kim Taylor

21-09-2007, 10:32 AM

I don't think there's any organized ZNKR grading in the USA or on the Islands I'm afraid. The CKF has been grading jodo for.... 7 years now I guess. Namitome sensei was here for that first grading too, and headed the panel for this year's grading.

In the ZNKR/IKF(FIK) there's a "teaching rank" of 5dan, that's the rank where you're allowed to put people forward for testing on your say-so, and where you can sit on a grading panel.

Of course if there isn't any such rank, you do what you can. In Canada we've always had Japanese sensei on the main grading panel which happens at our yearly seminar in May.

We started out using the Fukuoka prefecture grading rules which are 5 kata, jo side only for ikkyu, but have since switched to the Tokyo rules which are 3 kata, both sides and 3 kihon. You'll find the whole list of requirements at the CKF website, but that will differ slightly from place to place up to 6dan where you have a centralized grading panel.

Kyu grades in the IKF tend to be variable requirements, usually they're a "club" grade or some folks consider them "kids grades" since you can't test for shodan below a certain age... it's on the site, 14?. In Canada we require ikkyu to be tested at the regional gradings since the folks got tired of seeing really poor shodan tests... now we see really poor ikkyu tests instead.... and more kyu grades are highly encouraged so that folks don't show up at a regional grading without ever having tested before.

If you don't have much rank around to sit on dan panels, do kyu grades, people like to progress so let them.

Long story short, you get what training you can, where and when you can, and you keep plugging away at it. Get enough people together and invite a sensei to come teach, he will eventually get you hooked up to a grading system somewhere. I'd love to come to Hawaii for a seminar with you each winter ;-) but I suspect you could find someone from Japan with more rank than I willing to come and it would likely cost about the same in airfare.

Lived through that startup with both iaido and jodo in Canada, glad not to have to work that hard any more for my training, it's a real chore but if you're serious about it, it works.

Now if you're not particularly interested in ZNKR jodo, there are jodo folks in Hawaii I believe, isn't Quintin Chambers there? He's in the IJF which isn't affiliated with the kendo federation but is perfectly capable of teaching you jodo. See if you can find him or one of his students.

Kim Taylor

Fred27

21-09-2007, 04:56 PM

Now if you're not particularly interested in ZNKR jodo, there are jodo folks in Hawaii I believe, isn't Quintin Chambers there? He's in the IJF which isn't affiliated with the kendo federation but is perfectly capable of teaching you jodo. See if you can find him or one of his students.

Kim Taylor

Man why didnt I remember that? I must be getting old. Yes Quintin Chambers credentials are hopelessly impeccable: He recieved his Menkyo kaiden in Shinto Muso-ryu last year. If you can train with him, go for it! :)

Charles Lockhar

21-09-2007, 04:57 PM

Now if you're not particularly interested in ZNKR jodo, there are jodo folks in Hawaii I believe, isn't Quintin Chambers there? He's in the IJF which isn't affiliated with the kendo federation but is perfectly capable of teaching you jodo. See if you can find him or one of his students.

Yeah, Quintin is my teacher over here for SMR jo, but he's on Oahu and I'm on the Big Island. Real Life (tm) continues to impede my ability to make it over there to train.

Kendo is my main focus now mostly because it's available, and I enjoy it. I was thinking that maybe ZNKR would bridge "the gap" (why I feel there's a gap I can't exactly explain).

-Charles

Newbie

21-09-2007, 07:39 PM

Kendo is my main focus now mostly because it's available, and I enjoy it. I was thinking that maybe ZNKR would bridge "the gap" (why I feel there's a gap I can't exactly explain).

Hey, Seitei Jodo was invented partly to act as a bridging gap for kendoka to take up koryu jodo :)

Kim Taylor

21-09-2007, 09:49 PM

Hey, Seitei Jodo was invented partly to act as a bridging gap for kendoka to take up koryu jodo :)

Hmph, a slightly more cynical view would be that seitei jodo was invented to keep koryu jodo from disappearing altogether. Knowing what I know about the general levels of interest in the upper levels of Kendo toward iaido and jodo, I would suspect that Shimizu sensei was not being begged to bring jodo into the kendo federation. ;-)

Don't think there's any underlying plan to turn kendoka into koryu jodoka, despite the requirement for koryu kata in the grading curriculum. Same goes for iaido.

Back to seitei for Charles, there are only two seitei kata that are not found in the koryu curriculum and they aren't complicated. I haven't seen how Chambers sensei does his jodo but if you simply practice the koryu kata that exist in seitei, and add the two new ones (go ahead, learn them from a book if you have to, the kihon are the kihon) you won't be very far from correct.

IE, barring radical differences in the IJF kihon, the way the seitei and koryu kata are done aren't all that different, especially if you're talking "tokyo style". First ZNKR sensei you bring over from Japan will point out your differences in about 5 minutes.

Actually, if you read the ZNKR handbook for jodo or watch the tape, you'll be pretty well on your way to knowing the differences for yourself.

Kim Taylor

Newbie

22-09-2007, 12:13 AM

Umm... actually that was the entire reason both seitei iaido and seitei jodo were created - to act as a bridging gap from kendo to koryu. Honest! It's why at higher levels ZNKR require you to take up koryu. Well, that's what everyone's told me, anyway. I even wrote an essay for my sempai about a year ago, part of which was "What is the purpose of Kendo, Seitei Iaido and Seitei Jodo". They just became popular in their own right as arts. I found out only tonight that apparently seitei iaido was meant to run for a couple years to re-acquaint kendoka with the sword then get dropped. Heh, I'm glad it didn't or I prolly wouldn't be doing iaido or jodo today!

Charles Lockhar

22-09-2007, 03:51 AM

Back to seitei for Charles, there are only two seitei kata that are not found in the koryu curriculum and they aren't complicated. I haven't seen how Chambers sensei does his jodo but if you simply practice the koryu kata that exist in seitei, and add the two new ones (go ahead, learn them from a book if you have to, the kihon are the kihon) you won't be very far from correct.

Assuming the names all match up with what my brain tells me they are, the two kata you're thinking of are suigetsu and shamen?

Looking at the Canadian Kendo Federation jodo info page. I was taught the rest of the first 8 as omote kata (tsuki zue, hissage, sakan, monomi, kasumi, tachi otoshi), between omote and chudan I was taught suigetsu and shamen as "tweeners," then the rest of the kata are from chudan, except ranai, which is just ranai? Is the kodachi version of ranai included with the entry for ranai?

-Charles

Marcus_P

22-09-2007, 07:12 AM

Assuming the names all match up with what my brain tells me they are, the two kata you're thinking of are suigetsu and shamen?

You would be correct.

Kim Taylor

22-09-2007, 07:47 AM

Yes, those two are the ones, Ranai is the long sword version, and hissage is with a long sword rather than switch to kodachi.

You know all the kata then, so go ahead and practice/teach them. You should be able to get a ZNKR jodo sensei through your kendo club at some point in the future. You'll need 5 people for a panel but the local kendo organization will have ideas on that when the time comes.

Kim Taylor

dgilliespie

22-09-2007, 05:21 PM

Yes, those two are the ones, Ranai is the long sword version, and hissage is with a long sword rather than switch to kodachi.

You know all the kata then

Kim Taylor
not to forget Seigan is done differently.

Fred27

24-09-2007, 09:37 PM

Shamen and Suigetsu are both great kata even for guys like me who dont do Seitei. In our dojo we flip the order of the kata a bit as to incorporate Shamen and Suigetsu into the system. Instead of Tachiotoshi, Tsubawari, tsuki zue (and so on) we do it: tsuki zue, suigetsu and Shamen then Tachiotoshi, Tsubawari, Tsukizue and so on.

That way the beginners have an easier time getting into the Omote. I think the two kata, (and Kihon of course), is a nice testament to Shimizu Senseis dedication to Jodo by making creating these two kata to make Jodo more accessable to new students.

The shamen and suigetsu kata gets more interesting everytime I do them. :) I would really like the chance to have seen the Uchiotoshi kata too..But from what I gathered not many people have passed it along since Shimizu Sensei. :(

dgilliespie

25-09-2007, 12:07 AM

Fred27

25-09-2007, 01:52 AM

Please refer to the Jodo Kyohan.

After Omote the next set is called Tokushi waza 特殊 (meaning is special techniques)

Suigetsu
Shamen
Uchiotoshi

Our dojo practises them after Omote.

Uchiotoshi is no big deal simply a reverse strike (think start of midare dome) followed by one basic honte uchi.

Yes it seems different Jodo groups teach the special techniques in different order. Well regardless if the Uchiotoshi is a "big deal" or not, I'd still like to learn it. :)

Aden

25-09-2007, 09:09 AM

The SMR group I visit for practice has Suigetsu and Shamen effectively tacked on as 13 and 14 in omote when doing omote as starting exercise but they are not done in omote embu since they are not in omote.

The approach of Freds dojo to tack them on the front instead together with tsukiuzue is interesting - as a seitei dojo / smr practice mini group in Wollongong we often do something similar, introduce tsukizue first even for students not interested in seitei due to its relative structural simplicity and ability to be done with only honte, so depending on how the student goes and what their prior experience is we can add it in after the first lesson where they get exposed to honte / gyakute / hikiotoshi.

If anyone has any structured lesson plans I would like to see them :).

Tachiotoshi may have been a straight forward introduction to the stick containing most of the basic elements when you had to be an adult male of the sword wearing class to be taught it but for our 21st century newbies off the street with no prior weapons exposure it seems pretty challenging and the student needs to be more than 1/2 way through the kihon before we can consider showing it, while tsubawari is just evil (though that might be my bad knees talking).

Aden

Fred27

25-09-2007, 06:24 PM

The SMR group I visit for practice has Suigetsu and Shamen effectively tacked on as 13 and 14 in omote when doing omote as starting exercise but they are not done in omote embu since they are not in omote.
Aden

OOpsie! I hit a brainbump here...I forgot to mention that although our new students begin the way I mentioned: Tsuki zue, suigetsu and Shamen, once they hit Tachiotoshi they do Shamen and Suigetsu after the Omote they have learned. :redface: My bad.

Newbie

26-09-2007, 10:14 AM

If anyone has any structured lesson plans I would like to see them .

Well, I'm not allowed to teach anyone and we wont start structured lessons for two weeks (yay! finally! First Sunday in October!) but Kristian generally for seitei iai and jo only teaches me enough for what I need for my next grading. I know a lot of people don't agree with that I've reaped some pretty good benefits from being taught that way. So yes, my first eight weeks of jo before my first grading all I did was honte, gyuakute, hikiotoshi and kaeshi tsuki over and over again four to six times a week. My first six months (interrupted - shoulder injury) of iaido was one and two kata over and over again. Sounds boring but it really, really wasn't.

I don't know what lesson structure Kristian's going to be using for our new guys. Hopefully we'll have two people starting this year, then do a big push at the beginning of the academic year and start a proper beginners course. I haven't discussed with him what he plans to do but he seemed to really like what you guys were saying about beginners' courses.

Sandra S

02-09-2008, 06:45 AM

I am sorry to revive an old thread, but it is now September and time for me to start Jodo promotion all over again.

So I was wondering if Newbie gets to read this post, if it was possible to know, one year on, how things on Jodo promotion turned out for him.
This was indeed one of the most usefull threads I got to read here.

Thanks!

Sandra

Newbie

02-09-2008, 08:04 AM

Errr... unfortunately not. The president was incommunicado most of the time so I couldn't get approval on any of the projects but then I moved state :) And we've been discussing how to promote and they've got my posters and stuff to see if that's the style they want to go.

I'm still stuck on the one issue - what attracts people to jodo?

Sandra S

02-09-2008, 03:45 PM

I'm still stuck on the one issue - what attracts people to jodo?

I started promoting Jodo in my country at the time you first asked this question on the forum.

Of the people who showed some interest for Jodo the largest group was as usual that of the Iaido people and the weakest response came from Kendo although it was they who provided the stongest and most useful support since I was able to use their already existing structure to do my promotion.

Kendo people already tend to do Kendo two or three times per week and it tends to be quite physically intense practise, so they often don't want to add an extra art to it (if they do, it is usually Iaido), but they were keen to help, especially after they were explained Jodo is a ZNKR art: they will help because it belongs to their own Federation.

Apart from this, too many Kendo people are now going towards a sort of Shinai-do and even their own Kendo no Kata is failing to interest them (there are exceptions of course). So they see Jodo as a sort of Kendo no Kata and tend to ask in a naive way, why don't we use protections in Jodo and do free sparring. By the way, I practise Kendo myself, it was my first art.

Iaido people tend to be attracted to Jodo as complement to their Iaido since in Iaido they only do solo pratice and it becomes difficult to develop notions such as ma'ai and ma. I know a few people who where originally attacted to Iaido but their dojos made them practice Jodo as well and now, it has actually become the art they prefer the best. I did not try to do much of a Jodo promotion in Iaido because all of my Jodo Bu members where Iaido people already.

I feel that if you have too many people in the Jodo Bu to whom Jodo is only their second-best art (being the first one usually Iaido) you will be weakening the Jodo Bu. When people are faced whith having to chose between a Iaido and a Jodo seminar or competion, people will prefer the Iaido one and not show up at the Jodo one. I see a bit of this at the Dalington seminar, at the BKA's Kangeiko, or even at the Europeans.

So I tried to promote Jodo outside Iaido groups and without having Iaido alongside to draw people's attention to the flashy cool steel swords. I found it was easier to attract people from other martial arts and I had my hopes on the Aikido people, as Aiki-jo is part of their curriculum, but not all dojos get to practice it often.

But my surprise it was the Karate people who have shown the highest interest (and quite a keen one). Many of they are aware of the Kobudo Karate weapons like the Bo, but their curriculum is vast so they seldomly get to learn it. Some Karate people where also searching an alternative to their karate practise because they are abandoning karate - because of injury or fear of injury as they grow older - but would still like to continue a martial art.

For this year, the group I will be aiming at will be the people who do not practice any martials yet. I have some ideas for it, but further ideas would be welcome. :nervous:

As for what has personally attracted me in Jodo: I quite like the contact with materials as I have a Sculpture degree. In my University times I did specialize and in metals and did get to do some forging and foundry so I cannot help admiring the effort put into producing a Japanese sword and what a beautiful yet quite effective piece of art it is. And I admire even more how something so simple as a round piece of wood can actually defeat such an effective weapon the Japanese Sword. The Jo is a bit "zen": simplicity all over.

I quite like the idea that the apparently weak can actually come to defeat the strongest.
For me the Sword is Beauty, but there is a yet more powerfull Beauty hidden in simplicity of a Jo.

Apart from that, I also quite like the closeness with the wood and the feeling of it passing through my hands. I have never had a carbon shinai and I hope they don't invent carbon Jos.

torashin

02-09-2008, 05:23 PM

Hi Sandra

Sounds great

especially after they were explained Jodo is a ZNKR art: they will help because it belongs to their own Federation.

Jodo was introduced to the ZNKR in the late sixty's, so it's a bit older than ZNKR I think!! I understand the point your making though ;-)

I quite like the idea that the apparently weak can actually come to defeat the strongest.
For me the Sword is Beauty, but there is a yet more powerfull Beauty hidden in simplicity of a Jo.

I like this :)

I've found that Iai people seem to struggle with the Jo because of the apparent complexity of the movements. Lots more things to learn etc. Only used to using two hands in the same place (The Tsuka)

I agree some of the best response comes from people in arts outside of Iai & the sword. Aiki, Jujutsu, Karate. In the FEJ most of the practioners study Aikido & Iai. But I would say mainly Aiki, but I could be wrong.

Attracting new people is always a problem. There's only so many flyers & posters that can go out. At the end of the day I think people will come looking for you if they are interested. You just have to make sure that the info is available to them on the net in the library etc so that they can hopefully find you.

Keep it up you're not alone :)

Best wishes

Harry Jones

03-09-2008, 02:00 AM

For me the Sword is Beauty, but there is a yet more powerfull Beauty hidden in simplicity of a Jo.

Thats beautiful Sandra.

Sandra S

03-09-2008, 03:39 PM

Thanks Harry.
I have been reading this forum now and then for a few years now and I like to read about interest things like merihari in Iaido, but I really don't know much and I don't have many interesting questions to ask, so I hardly ever take part.

There's only so many flyers & posters that can go out. At the end of the day I think people will come looking for you if they are interested.

I know you are being kind and trying to encourage me, but there's been nearly 1000 visits to my website (http://jo.do.sapo.pt/) since the beginning of the year and I haven't seen many people walking into the dojo from it (actually none).

I feel active promotion is what works the better, things like demonstrations where you go towards the persons and they get to see the people from the dojo are the most effective ones. I feel that if one waits to be found, one will be missing out on some potentially very good students just because they didn't even know you were there in the first place and never though about trying to find you.

If nobody had come towards me years before, I would not be practicing martial arts today.

Still I know the website and other kinds of promotion which often do not show many visible results are still important because the people who visited it at least now have a slight idea of what Jodo is. A kendo teacher used to tell us about begginner's courses: "A lot of those people will drop out, maybe all of them, but they will have had at least this little contact with Kendo in their lives, they now will know what it is when they hear it being mentioned and we will have generated more tolerance towards martial arts".

I did quite a lot of Jodo promotion before the Kendo people of my Federation and retention rate was none, but at least now even the junior Kendo grades in my Federation know Jodo actually exists and came to respect this other discipline.

Jodo was introduced to the ZNKR in the late sixty's, so it's a bit older than ZNKR I think!! I understand the point your making though ;-)

I quite agree with you and I should have constructed my sentence differently in order not to offend people from other SMR branches: my apologies. I was thinking in Seitei Jodo terms when I wrote it. You do seem to have understood my point though ;-)

Best,

Sandra Santos

torashin

03-09-2008, 05:49 PM

Hi Sandra

Great website. I wish I could read it :confused:

I hope you don't mind me asking but what group are you affiliated too (ZNKR)??

I only ask because I'm affiliated with the FEJ European Jodo Federation http://www.fej.ch/en/news.htm

Recently in Madrid they were joking about a possible future group in Portugal because one of Pascal sensei students is Portugese and due to return home soon. I'm not saying he's associated with you but I just thought it might help if you had links within Europe that's all. :)

I hope you don't mind me adding this :)

Best wishes

torashin

03-09-2008, 05:55 PM

Hi Sandra

Just been looking around your site. You seem to have plenty of people practising and I noticed Andy Watson's been to see you only recently.

So things don't look too bad.

I wish I had your numbers turning up at my dojo every week ;-)

Cheers

torashin

03-09-2008, 05:59 PM

Hi Sandra

Forget this I had a mad moment

I hope you don't mind me asking but what group are you affiliated too (ZNKR)??

Rgds

Andy_Watson

03-09-2008, 06:04 PM

Oi Mark

Keep your grubby splintered fingers off our EKF property!!!

:)

torashin

03-09-2008, 06:22 PM

Oi Mark

Keep your grubby splintered fingers off our EKF property!!!

:)

Nice one LOL :laugh:

Yeh, I realised where Sandra was training after I had a good look at her site.

Cie la vie, I tried ;-)

Cheers

Sandra S

04-09-2008, 04:56 AM

Hi Mark,

Recently in Madrid they were joking about a possible future group in Portugal because one of Pascal sensei students is Portugese and due to return home soon. I'm not saying he's associated with you but I just thought it might help if you had links within Europe that's all. :)

I hope you don't mind me adding this :)

I don't mind it at all, I could have actually have been a FEJ member, which only reinforces my idea of "one will be missing out on some potentially good students just because they didn't even know you were there in the first place and never though about trying to find you."

When I first looked for Jodo, 5 years ago, I was living in a French region called Rhône-Alpes, it's capital is Lyon, the second or third largest French town.

In ZNKR Kendo, the region is quite strong and well organized but in Jodo, there isn't a single ZNKR dojo. I was doing Kendo then, so it was only natural I would look for Jodo within the Federation I was practising under. I was told I had to go to Paris for Jodo (560km away from where I lived), and because of that I didn't start Jodo back then, since I ignored the fact that the FEJ was right next to me in Geneva!

I met some people from Zanshin-Madrid through Kendo about three years ago, two brothers, one of them practised Jodo and meeting him did encourage me to look for Jodo again. I didn't keep their contact, but now and then I do take a look at their dojo's webpage.

Through it, I did notice a Shomokurouku is now in Madrid after having been in Japan for quite a few years. I read about a seminar they held last year and I know the FEJ's Gasshuku was in Madrid this year. They do seem strong and expanding.

Lately I have been going quite a few times to Lyon for some Kendo musha shugyo and there is still not a single ZNKR Jodo dojo around. I know FEJ has a dojo there but as you may have noticed I have quite possessive sempais:

Oi Mark

Keep your grubby splintered fingers off our EKF property!!!

:)

So I guess now it's a bit too late...

Cheers!

Sandra

Andy_Watson

04-09-2008, 08:24 AM

So I guess now it's a bit too late...

...I did notice some EKF members at some of the FEJ seminars. No problem in doing some cross-training...

Sandra S

04-09-2008, 03:53 PM

...I did notice some EKF members at some of the FEJ seminars. No problem in doing some cross-training...

Yes, but FEJ people seem to start with Omote and apart from the 6 kata that are also in Seitei Jodo, my Omote is still at it's beginnings.

Although I started a dojo in Portugal and I am trying to actively promote Jodo there, due to professional reasons I have been spending more time in France than in Portugal lately.

Last year, I did go up to Paris to one of the French national seminars, but most people in France are Fukuoka style and I am Toquio. I never though that would be a problem while doing Seitei Jodo, until then I had though Seitei Jodo was like Seitei Iaido, that it wouldn't matter much if you were from a different style.

In Seitei Iaido I see people even from different schools like MJER and MSR doing pretty much the same thing appart from their noto and the handling of the sageo. Also, Iaido is made of individual katas and people do not have to interact with other people as in paired katas.

To practice Seitei with a Fukuoka person was quite startling to me as their Seitei has quite a few Fukuoka influences. While we were doing Hissage, as soon as they came from Hissage-no-kamae to the full front position with BOTH hands on their Jo (I do it with one hand only) I would just go "WHAT?" which was enough to make me lose my concentration as an uchidachi, because I wondered if what they were going to make next would be different too (e.g. to strike me directly instead of going into awase, thus sending me to hospital). :)

This was actually interesting as it did force me to think in a more flexible way, there would be a few more minor surprises along the way but they had mostly to do with rythm and ways of doing certain things (amplitude of the strikes and such). The people were very nice and quite respectfull of the fact that I followed a different style: whenever one of their teachers came to correct me on something, he would start by asking "Is this how your teacher has taught you?", to make sure he was correcting something that was an objective Seitei thing, and not a subjective style issue. Their aim was not to change my style but to improve my Seitei without affecting it.

When I go to a BKA seminar, everyone descends from the same teacher, that teacher's students, and so forth, they are all doing pretty much the same thing so I had never been faced with this question before.

And of course that if someone asks you "Is this how you teacher has taught you?", as a low-grade, half the times you are not really sure. Sometimes you picked up things from your teacher from imitation and not always did you manage to imitate it correctly. So right there on the spot you really don't know if you are making a movement that way out of a bad habit or because that is the way your teacher does it: you always took that movement for granted and never though much about it.

So I found myself back to my original dojo whatching quite carefully my sempais doing that same movement just to be sure "Is it that way my dojo does it?". And I watched my teachers, and my teachers' teacher and even my teachers' teacher's teacher, and indeed that was the way they all did it, and now I am sure that is the way I should be doing it as well.

It was a very interesting exercise to be training with the Fukuoka people as it raised questions in my mind about what I have been doing that I had never asked myself before. But if I was to train with them regularly, being a low grade, I am pretty sure that in no time I would start absorving their way of doing things. And then my style would become neither Toquio or Fukuoka, but a sort of a confused mix of the two.

I really liked seing the Fukuoka Koryu katas at the Europeans last year but much as I like them, it is the Toquio style I follow.

I know people like Ishido Sensei and Otake Sensei know and practice both Toquio and Fukoka, but they probably only learned a second style and started practising with each other when they where already quite confident of their original style (perhaps when they where young nanadans...).

I know FEJ people follow the teachings of Shimizu Sensei through Nishioka Sensei which makes me suppose their style resembles more the Toquio style I practice. But I have never seen FEJ people practising.

Maybe eventually one day I will ask to visit that FEJ Lyon dojo to satisfy my curiosity.

Best,

Sandra

Fred27

04-09-2008, 05:52 PM

"Toquio"? :)

Anyhoo, regarding what the EJF teaches. We actually have a bit of a mix between styles. Pascal Sensei was for a long time solely Tokyo based; being taught by Shimizu Sensei. When Nishioka Sensei came along there was an infuse of new influences and ways of doing things. What makes EJF unique is that Pascal Sensei hasn't completely changed his methods but still retains what could be labelled "Tokyo" elements.

Also, since Nishioka Sensei met with Otofuji Sensei (Fukuoka) he has some knowledge on how they do things "over there". He often uses those differences in his teachings to demonstrate the differences in technique but similarities in riai. You can see some examples of the differences in this clip featuring Sensei.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_FPa7H70G8

Oh, and regarding being taught from different teachers, Sensei gives a word of caution in an article on Koryu.com

Once, my teacher, Shimizu Takaji Sensei (1896-1978), told me not to copy the jo practiced by his junior fellow student Otofuji Ichizo Sensei. Unless one carefully reflects on what Shimizu Sensei really meant, this statement can be easily misunderstood. He knew that there were some differences between his way of using jo and tachi, and the way in which Otofuji Sensei used these weapons. Even in kata bujutsu,[2] it is very natural for there to be differences in the form. That's because different people have different levels of technical understanding and different mindsets. This leads them to make movements in slightly different ways and they pass on these individual characteristics in their teaching. Shimizu Sensei was afraid that young students would notice these differences, get confused or suspicious, and think that one way or the other was wrong. He seemed to have been concerned about the inevitable errors that result when a student is unable or unwilling to follow just one teacher. He urged me to follow a single teacher, to the greatest extent possible, and to avoid confusing myself unnecessarily by looking around at other teachers.

Having more than one teacher can create serious problems in your training. On the other hand, insisting that students blindly "follow one and only one teacher" can result in separatist cliques and prevent students of different teachers from being able to practice together. This distasteful situation still occurs in the Japanese martial arts world. The only solution is to wait for the spiritual growth of both the teacher and the disciple; then students can train under a single teacher and still benefit from interacting with students from other groups.

This is why an understanding of rei is so essential to the process of spiritual growth in bujutsu. One of the most profound expressions of rei lies in the interaction between uchidachi, the one who receives the technique, and shidachi, the one who does the technique. Unfortunately, even teachers often misunderstand the subtleties of uchidachi and shidachi in kata training. They fail to pass on to their students the difference in intent inherent in these two roles. Particularly in the classical traditions, the roles of uchidachi and shidachi are quite distinctive. Each has its own unique psychological viewpoint. It is essential that this distinct quality always be maintained. I believe that the difference in these two roles is the defining characteristic of kata training. Recently, I've come to the realization that it is not even worth training unless both partners properly understand this.

(Full article here (http://www.koryu.com/library/tnishioka1.html))

Fred27

04-09-2008, 05:59 PM

I almost forgot, if you want to see how we train you could check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBW2NaltUVA
This is a clip featuring Fred Quant Sensei (http://www.fej.ch/en/tea-fquant.htm) of the EJF in a local Dutch TV program.

torashin

04-09-2008, 06:35 PM

Yes, but FEJ people seem to start with Omote and apart from the 6 kata that are also in Seitei Jodo, my Omote is still at it's beginnings.

Hi Sandra

I believe most dojo's in the FEJ start teaching people kata in the Seitei order upto Tachi Otoshi then carry on with Omote.

The real main differences are in the Kihon. I know there are variations in Kata too.

Check out "From the 2004 Meiji Jingu embu, Matsui Kenji (uchidachi) and Matsumura Shigehiro (shidachi) demonstrate the omote kata Monomi. "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fopdncdNG2Y

What is interesting is the cover to Nishioka sensei latest video as per clip Fred posted. It states that in 1978 Simizu sensei (Tokyo) authorised Nishioka sensei to use kanji from his name then in 1981 Otofuji sensei (Fukuoka) authorised Nishioka sensei to use kanji from his name.

From what I know after speaking to Nishioka sensei students, sensei knows all the differences and his changes reflect this I feel.

As ever, this is my understanding and not an official line. I'm just starting on the journey :)

Cheers & keep promoting Jo

Sandra S

05-09-2008, 03:55 PM

"Toquio"? :)

Ah yes, :emb: that does gives out the fact that I am Portuguese as that is the way we spell Tokyo. Not easy keeping a track on how towns are spelled in different languages. :emb:

Many thanks for the article :) . I think I had read it a couple of years ago but one's understanding changes as we progress and it did me quite good to read it now.

It does reflects my understanding of what I think my seniors have tried to transmit me, the problem for me is how to transmit it to beginners and to my kohais.

When one explains in one class "That does exist, but this is how we do it and it is the way you should be doing it", people's minds will immediatly go to "I shouldn't be doing like that, so that way is wrong. They do it like that, so they are wrong. We are right." When you try to explain "No, that is not wrong, just different", they still can't get it. And with this we start having those "separatist cliques".

My interests in other branches or styles comes from the fact that I am responsible for promoting Seitei Jodo and organizing the Jodo Bu within the association that represents the EKF in my country. And although for now we are only two Jodo dojos and both doing Tokyo style, considering one of the existing Iaido dojos follows a Iaido teacher who is also a Jodo high-grade from the Fukuoka style there is a strong possibility that a Fukuoka dojo might emerge in the years to come.

If I don't keep people's mind's ope