An unorthodox disarmament?

[Legionario]

Please take a look at this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIiJIqm8lp8

It is the final of the 2007 MuMunKwan trophy disputed between CUS Verona and a korean representative.
We have the three matches in a row.
There's something interesting going on in the second match, Filippi (Verona, Italia) vs Ho (Korea), at 2:32 and 4:16 respectively.
What do you think of the disarmament executed by the korean fighter? Is it to be considered valid or is it not?

While I was in Korea in july, mindful of this clip, during a tournament I tried to apply the same disarmament tecnique, and as a result I got an hansoku!
So I am even more puzzled about it...

To watch the other matches of the tournament:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=552D7983B8542332

[bobdonny]

its fair game when pulling back from tzuberai, its not so much a bad offensive tactic but rather bad grip by oponent who relaxes in tzuberai.

[tango]

The one at 2:32 looks very legal to me... White simply hooks thie shinai around Red's shinai and pulls straight back.
I don't see a problem with that. I use it fairly regularly in jigeiko and did it (tried to do it) at last year's regional tournament. No hansoku..

The one at 4:16 is more difficult to see clearly.

What I *think* is illegal to do is to hook your tsuka (or tsukagashira) between the opponent's hands (against their tsuka) and pull back from there. I'm not 100% sure, though. My sensei and I do it occasionally if we're jacking around in jigeiko, but I've never tried it outside of that. On a side note, sensei occasionally uses a variety of dirty shinai tricks at tsubazeriai with me.. (the old "hook the tsuka behind the dou-mune and pull" trick is popular.. haha... or... the old "let go of the tsukagashira and push the opponent's dou up into their tsuki" trick...)

[Halcyon]

What do you think of the disarmament executed by the korean fighter? Is it to be considered valid or is it not?
Perfectly valid.
While I was in Korea in july, mindful of this clip, during a tournament I tried to apply the same disarmament tecnique, and as a result I got an hansoku!
So I am even more puzzled about it...
My guess is that you may have been given a hansoku for improper tsubazeriai, rather than the technique itself.

That said, it's not a technique you should necessarily be trying to do deliberately, IMO. What I mean is that if you find yourself presented with the opportunity (where your opponent has his/her shinai wrapped around yours), then go for it. But I wouldn't try to deliberately hook my shinai around my opponent's shinai with the intent of disarming them. ... In addition to being improper tsubazeriai, you can set yourself up for hiki-waza if your opponent knows what they're doing.

[ben]

I think the first one is valid, seeing as the Korean senshu used it as the opportunity for a technique.

However in the second case, it looks to me as if the technique has been used with no intention to follow up with a scoring technique. The Korean senshu in this case is aware his opponent has a sloppy tsubazeriai and uses that to "score" with hansoku. It's never good to win by hansoku, even less so to win deliberately.

b

[Neil Gendzwill]

What I *think* is illegal to do is to hook your tsuka (or tsukagashira) between the opponent's hands (against their tsuka) and pull back from there. I'm not 100% sure, thoughI am. That's hansoku.

[tango]

ok, thanks Neil!!!

re: Ben's point about trying to disarm without trying to score. In each case where I've used this technique, it's not actually to try and disarm the opponent from tsubazeriai, rather, it's just another way of trying to open up the men for hikiwaza.

[Inner_Silence]

i dont know if the disarment is ok... but the first tall guy was very fast!!!

[Paikea]

I am. That's hansoku.Looks like they called it both times as well.

[tango]

They called the hansoku on the guy who was disarmed in the video... not the guy who did the maneuver...

[Paikea]

They called the hansoku on the guy who was disarmed in the video... not the guy who did the maneuver...Whoops...insert the word "wrong" and the meaning becomes more clear. Stupid fingers...

It looked pretty obvious in the first instance, and with the bad viewing angle, probable in the second.

[Halcyon]

Whoops...insert the word "wrong" and the meaning becomes more clear. Stupid fingers...

It looked pretty obvious in the first instance, and with the bad viewing angle, probable in the second.
It looks to me like both calls were correct. I believe what Neil is saying is that it is hansoku to hook your tsuka between the opponent's hands and pull back from there.

[Paikea]

It looks to me like both calls were correct. I believe what Neil is saying is that it is hansoku to hook your tsuka between the opponent's hands and pull back from there....and isn't that what we are seeing the taller gent in the darker hakama do? Geez, I wish YouTube did better single-frame stepping. The more I look, the less I see...

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

My eyes might be playing tricks on me, but I think that the 2 actions were different, in the first one, I think it´s a valid one, he pulls back with the tsuru-side of his shinai and takes the shinai out of thee other guy´s hands that had trapped it there. In the second case, I think the hansoku should have gone to the korean guy, because it looks to me like he trapped his tsuka between the hands of his opponent and pulled back from there, then the guy falls, etc... that´s hansoku.

[Halcyon]

...and isn't that what we are seeing the taller gent in the darker hakama do? Geez, I wish YouTube did better single-frame stepping. The more I look, the less I see...
Call it the YouTube Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Yeah, now that you mention it, that second one is pretty hard to see, but it looks like he used the tsuru side of his shinai. Anyway, the point being that if indeed the guy used his tsuka, that's hansoku.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

taking a better look, the second one looks much more like kote-kote action with shinais wrapped around, that kinda explains why the guy takes a dive.

[Paikea]

Call it the YouTube Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Yeah, now that you mention it, that second one is pretty hard to see, but it looks like he used the tsuru side of his shinai. Anyway, the point being that if indeed the guy used his tsuka, that's hansoku.Note to self, must start attending shinpan seminars...

[tango]

I've gone back and looked at the video again and again, and it seems that in both occurrances, White has attempted the same technique.
The big one in question is the second occurrance and I think I can clearly see that the tsuka was NOT used... just looks like a very hard pull ... shinai on shinai... very close to the tsuba. (in other words, I think Paul is correct!)

Red's reaction in the second occurrance might have been so drastic because he probably had a very strong grip on the shinai..

It's hard to tell from the video angle, but again, it looks ok to these aging eyes..

[cesarekim]

BTW, Red (Filippi) was the Italian Team Captain at Taipei. White (Lee) was the guy who neutralized Chris Yang in the Taipei Finals. It was Lee's second time at WKC as he was on the team at Glasgow as well.