Where do left hand katate come from?

[shred_lord]

I've started training Jodan in earnest, and it's made me think, all Kendo katate technique are left handed (or the hand at the tsukagashira if we're including gyaku jodan - nito being a different kettle of fish).

But why? I've never seen left handed katate used in other sword arts. In other JSA I've seen (and the one I do) katate techniques are done right handed, though this is likely due to them mostly being performed from the draw.

So where does it come from! It's either an invention of kendo (nothing wrong with that), or it has come from some ryu I have no knowledge of.

If it is a Kendo invention, I don't think it's a product of modern "competition" (urgh, hate that term :)) Kendo because this video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=f1VPZnIufY0) suggests it to be of older origin.

So, anybody have any ideas?

[shred_lord]

And why do I always misspell the titles of my bloody threads!!!!! :D

[D'Artagnan]

katate waza is done this way to extend reach.

its not done with the hand by the tsuba as no extra reach is gained, so therefore its a bit pointless.

[shred_lord]

Oh, I understand that, but is it a kendo thing, or does it have roots in Koryu? That's the question. I've had iai guys sat to me, "but you couldn't cut with a sword like that!"

I should not have used the term "But why?" in framing my question. It origins, not practical reasons that interest me. Sorry.

[Whitefire]

I suspect most are left handed because your left hand is at the end of the weapon so if you do katate from there you get extra reach, if you did it right handed then normally you don't gain as much so you might as well do it two handed.

Having said that, I was shown a right handed katate (to men) recently, but that was launched from Hidari Jodan and involved a step through, so gave you a good reach improvement.

[shred_lord]

I suspect most are left handed because your left hand is at the end of the weapon so if you do katate from there you get extra reach, if you did it right handed then normally you don't gain as much so you might as well do it two handed.


Oh, I understand that, but is it a kendo thing, or does it have roots in Koryu? That's the question. I've had iai guys sat to me, "but you couldn't cut with a sword like that!"

I should not have used the term "But why?" in framing my question. It origins, not practical reasons that interest me. Sorry.No more to say.



Having said that, I was shown a right handed katate (to men) recently, but that was launched from Hidari Jodan and involved a step through, so gave you a good reach improvement.But would that actually score? Could actually work from jodan as a nuki waza by going into hamni like the tsuki in the first niten kata, but I think Debana Men probably be better Jodan.

[lucy]

But, going into hanmi a right handed katate waza (e.g. tsuki) still has farther reach than morote waza.... (Just thinking out loud.)

[sainueng]

Personally I actually find it easier to control a one-handed swing if I hold the shinai in the middle of the tsukagawa, or closer to the end. Holding it right at the tsuba throws me off. The excess part of the handle makes it difficult to apply tenouchi and stop/control the shinai.

Maybe it's because the strike in kendo is more percussive instead of slicing through?

[Neil Gendzwill]

You're used to cutting with the power from the left hand, so you just continue that onto your katate-waza. That and the big distance advantage.

[shred_lord]

Neil, does that mean you think left hand katate is a Kendo invention?

Maybe I have still not been clear enough here.

I know most of the reasons to do katate cuts the way we do. I'm simply curious to know whether it has a basis in koryu or not.

[DCPan]

I've had iai guys sat to me, "but you couldn't cut with a sword like that!"

Well, that's not true. I've seen a video of Ryuseiken Tournament where someone did a left-katate-giri from jodan... :D

That said, Ryuseiken is not koryu.

[DCPan]

I know most of the reasons to do katate cuts the way we do. I'm simply curious to know whether it has a basis in koryu or not.

I think there is a Tenren Rishin Ryu kata or another ryu where in their iai, they do a katate cut with right hand at the end of the tsuka.

So, at least cutting with the hand on the end of the tsuka is around.

With the left hand bit though...I haven't seen any in my video and book wonderings, but it might be a left-hand stigma thing, or one of those I'd tell you, but I have to kill you things. :D

[nebosuke]

katate waza is done this way to extend reach.

its not done with the hand by the tsuba as no extra reach is gained, so therefore its a bit pointless.

Not quite pointless. Right handed katate can be done to open up the left side, in the same way you might attack kote to get men.

[hyuna]

I think there is a Tenren Rishin Ryu kata or another ryu where in their iai, they do a katate cut with right hand at the end of the tsuka.

So, at least cutting with the hand on the end of the tsuka is around.

With the left hand bit though...I haven't seen any in my video and book wonderings, but it might be a left-hand stigma thing, or one of those I'd tell you, but I have to kill you things. :D

i think that in shinkage ryu there is a cut to the heel performed katate with left hand?

[Kingofmyrrh]

From what I've heard katate waza from jodan are pretty much a modern invention.

[Stephen]

Didn't F.J. Norman ('Fighting Man of Japan') say something about how Japanese swordsmen were very intimidating as they could use both hands? As kendo was alot closer to kenjutsu or some koryu schools back then, would this suggest there was an element of katate waza prior to modern kendo?

On the other hand, I've also heard/read something that argued left hand katate strikes are not practicle when using a katana as one could generate enough power to be effective. When people wore armour, this would possibley true, however in a duel without armour, I can't see why it wouldn't have been used - especially yokomen and tsuki. Just thinking out loud here - interesting thread though.

[Kenzan]

And on that note:

My Grandslam was supposed to come with sausage. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=DGhx1VyimNE)

[Kenshi]

I know most of the reasons to do katate cuts the way we do. I'm simply curious to know whether it has a basis in koryu or not.

For kendo its simply a matter of hitting the datotsu-bui. If you can do it quicker and at a range which might be mysterious and/or uncomfy for your partner or as a suprise attack, then anythings game. Im sure it didnt take people long to start trying 1-handed katate waza from Jodan and chudan.

Did it have a basis in koryu? For me personally its unimaginable.

[Alex]

Katate-waza became quite common from the mid 18th century onwards with the invention of shinai and armour, and the new 'uchikomi-geiko' style of training as opposed to just kata training. Chiba Shusaku incorporated them officially in his set of kenjutsu techniques (for gekiken). As far as kata-centric koryu is concerned, katate waza can still be found. For example, in Tendo-ryu it is used by the tachi side in some kata. I have seen it in many other koryu demostrations as well.

Going back even further to Kamakura-Muromachi periods, if bushi did use swords from horseback (they did but probably not as often as it is commonly assumed), then they would have had to cut with one hand.

[shred_lord]

Hmm, really interesting, keep it coming.

Stephen: I don't know, if you go overboard with katate men, you can produce quite ridiculous amounts of power. The question is, would that be enough without the pull/push to continue the cut after it bites.

[Fudo-Shin]

On a different note, surely katate-zuki was used in Koryu? It seems quite practical (mechanically) to me.