Cross training in Aikido

[Paul Kerr]

Hi Folks,

I'm a newbie to kendo, having just taken it up and have a couple of questions. I have trained in Aikido for 14 years (and will continue to do so) and also trained 5 years in Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu - so I have at least a basic familiarity with sword work, albeit only with bokken and iaito, never shinai.

Is there anyone out there who perhaps also has some background in either Aiki-ken or TSKSR (or indeed any other related art) who would be "wise" to some typical hurdles or challenges that I might expect in kendo?

My first, limited, impression is that the footwork is radically different from what I have been used to, as is the ma-ai (due to the length of the shinai). I also notice that my hip placement is not as it should be (having a tendency to sometimes turn). The re-learning process will certainly be interesting and challenging for me :).

If any of the wiser heads here have experiences to share on this matter I would very much appreciate it.

Thanks.

Paul

[Charlie]

Paul, I don't know the answer to your question, but I sure would like to hear about it. If you don't get much of a response here, try asking around at www.e-budo.com. You may find that most of the people here have trained only in kendo.

Out of curiosity, what made you take up kendo? You already have an impressive MA background.

[Paul Kerr]

Hi Charlie,
I do sometimes hang out at e-budo, but I haven't asked the question there yet - so thanks for the reminder to do so :)

To answer your question: I (reluctantly) stopped training in TSKSR about 3 years ago due to the schedule simply not being compatable anymore with work/family etc. I've always enjoyed weapons work, and though we do some Aiki-ken at the dojo I study aikido at it's not a big part of the curriculum. I was attracted to kendo because 1) I REALLY wanted to do swordwork again and in a structured environment 2) I, frankly, wanted a more rigorous training environment than I'm used to in aikido - the dojo I train in doesn't really pay much attention to conditioning and I just felt something was "missing" in my training 3) I simply fell in love with kendo the first time I saw it :). Corny, but true.

[Marine_Boy]

Hi Paul,

I have practiced aikido and kashima shinryu kenjutsu for a little over two years now and have been doing kendo since Feb. this year.

Although I have not practiced as long as you have, I can say that I've still got a little experience in response to your question.

Firstly, I'm only 24 and learning is still relatively easy. But the major hurdles that I have had (the ones off the top of my head) are the fact that kiai in kendo is slightly different and could sometimes be much longer than a sharp sound.

The level of fitness in kendo is also much higher since kendoka are encouraged to not take too many rests or water breaks, whereas in an aikido dojo, although one could potentially wear themselves out by either randori or continous nage techniques, an aikidoka will always sit and "rest" whilst sensei is demonstrating a technique.

The footwork was not too much of a problem since in aikido we do a lot of taisaibaki. But in kendo, the positioning of the feet is very important (i.e. the gap between the left and right foot). Also, I have / had a bad habit of lifting both my arms and right foot when I attempt men. The result is that my opponent see my attack and easily counter it.

The plus points are that in tsubazerai (sp???), both my aikido and kenjutsu teachings come in very handy. For example, for a relatively new person in kendo, I am not as intimidated by my opponent who is in close quarters and the sensitivity from body contact in both aikido and kenjutsu has helped my feel what my opponent is doing.

But I guess that my main advantage is that I only started kendo a year after my aikido and kenjutsu.

Hope that helps.

Ps. The guys over at ebudo are very knowledgeable.

Stan

[Paul Kerr]

... kiai in kendo is slightly different and could sometimes be much longer than a sharp sound

Yeah Stan, that's another thing I noticed immediately. I'm used to a short, sharp kiai, and the extended kiai I heard in the kendo dojo were very impressive examples of breath control.

The fitness level is also a major difference - certainly compared to the average intensity of my aikido workouts and the fitness of my fellow aikidoka. As I said, that was one of the factors that led me to seek out kendo. It's also a bit of a personal "thing" of mine in aikido - there are just too many senior practitioners who let themselves go to hell fitness wise. Stan Pranin over on
Aikido Journal (http://www.aikidojournal.com) has written a very good article on this. I vowed to myself that I wouldn't let myself "degenerate" in that way :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

I can't comment very thoroughly as I only did about 9 months of aikido. I did note that in that 9 months I never once broke a sweat. I find the level of aggression/combative intent in kendo to be much higher than that in the aikido dojo I attended. To be blunt, there were a lot of crunchy granola types interested in blending with the universe who would be shocked if they were told they were learning to hurt people. Coming from a judo and kendo background, I was more interested in making my opponent blend with the mat. I've been told that other dojo are different, but it sounds like the one I attended was not unique.

[Paul Kerr]

Hi Neil,

Your experience is, sadly, not untypical. Much as I love aikido and will continue to train in it, I've had to question many of the "received truths" that pervade it in some quarters. "Aiki-Bunny" syndrome is what it's called - flakes who want to gut the art of any martial vigour/spirit/intensity and turn it into a tree-hug party. Ugh - don't get me started... :puzzled:

Thankfully not all dojos are like that - in my previous dojo people trained HARD. In my current one it's harder to achieve that intensity.

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Hi Paul

I managed to study a bit of TSKSR but it was a few years back

I think the biggest issues are the posture, kamae (in kata this may be an issue) and movement

The Kendo stance is narrower and optimised for movement on a dojo floor wheras of course KSR is a battlefield koryu and the stand refelects the uneven ground and the requirements of cutting )hip placement etc

Its going to be tough to keep the feet parallel and the stance much narower but itll come with time and practise

enjoy !

[Ben F.]

I can't comment very thoroughly as I only did about 9 months of aikido. I did note that in that 9 months I never once broke a sweat. I find the level of aggression/combative intent in kendo to be much higher than that in the aikido dojo I attended. To be blunt, there were a lot of crunchy granola types interested in blending with the universe who would be shocked if they were told they were learning to hurt people. Coming from a judo and kendo background, I was more interested in making my opponent blend with the mat. I've been told that other dojo are different, but it sounds like the one I attended was not unique.

Whoa...whoa...whoa! There's aikido without sweat? Man, what the h*ll have I been doing working my butt off for the last seven years for? :p

It definitely depends on the style of aikido you take. I have been involved with Yoshokai (an offshoot of Yoshinkan, taught by Takeshi Kushida Sensei) for seven or eight years now, and I leave every class, beginner, intermediate or advanced, absolutely drenched and happy.

Paul, depending on how much buki work you did in aikido you may have to adjust your distance and timing for kendo. At my aikido dojo we tend to work at safer distances because the point of doing the bukiwaza is to reinforce the body movements of the unarmed techniques. Obviously with kendo you have to work at real distances or you will never score a single point.

Also, I think the snapping motion of the shinai may be difficult to learn at first because it is different from the cutting through motion I learned for the bokken.

My bukiwaza in aikido has actually gotten much better as a result of my kumdo training. My timing is tighter and my grasp of maai is much better. Still have a long way to go, but it is the journey not the destination that matters.

Hope that helps a bit. Good luck, Paul, and good training! Welcome!

[mingshi]

Whoa...whoa...whoa! There's aikido without sweat?
:confused:
The Aikido Sensei I had told me that if you sweat doing Aikido, you are doing it WRONG! --No muscular strength. There were some girls coming to the class for keeping fit. He just went laughing.

Yeah, anyway... just pay attention to the hips and footwork. And move forward after cut!

(That was Korindo Aikido... offshot Butokukai/Minoru Hirai)

[Nishi]

I trained in Shinshin toitsu...again very very soft, however ki-society aikido is known as the softest style of aikido generally. The bokken work was more used to foster correct throws at my level as well as ki-development,

I dont know anything about Yoshokai aikido Ben.F but Yoshinkan is considered the hardest style of aikido, even used by police in certain places in Japan im told. Yoshinkan aikido, my sensei used to tell me was a closer relation to
Jui-jitsu, where the beauty of aikido was that the destroying elemants had been removed....just a thought on why you you guys train so hard...but realisticly, i never trained to any standard where opinion could be considered enlightening...just a though. :D

[Paul Kerr]

Mingshi: Yes, I agree that when actually performing a good aikido technique there should be minimal effort involved. However, I think that the pace of a class should be high enough that you get sweaty - that means a good warming-up period.

Ben: Nice point about the bokken/shinai difference. I was surprised at just how different these two beasts seemed to be :). I've never had the most flexible of shoulders (due to being fairly stocky and also having bust up a shoulder a few years back which still gives me trouble) and working with a shinai really targets that.

Kendo kamae really takes some getting used to though - I'm moving like a crippled muppet at the moment :)

[Ben F.]

I dont know anything about Yoshokai aikido Ben.F but Yoshinkan is considered the hardest style of aikido, even used by police in certain places in Japan im told. Yoshinkan aikido, my sensei used to tell me was a closer relation to Jui-jitsu, where the beauty of aikido was that the destroying elemants had been removed....

Nishi: If you are looking for a humorous read on the subject of Yoshinkan aikido let me recommend "Angry White Pajamas." It is the story of an Oxford educated poet going to Japan and taking the Yoshinkan's Riot Police training course, supposedly the most difficult training in martial arts in the world. Any of the books by Gozo Shioda give a good practical look at Yoshinkan style.

My head instructor, Takeshi Kushida Sensei, was Gozo Shioda Sensei's second in command for a number of years. Once Shioda Sensei elected to form the IYAF (International Yoshinkan Aikido Federation), Kushida Sensei stepped away from that organization and formed his own, changing the name of the style slightly: Yoshinkan to Yoshokai.

There are many similarities between the two: the same teaching methodology, same basic movements, same emphasis on bukiwaza and good ukemi, and same hard training style. The 20 month instructor training course I took (kenshu) was probably the most physically demanding thing I have done in my whole life.

Many of the Yoshokai techniques are very similar to Ueshiba's pre-war aikido which have more of an aiki-jujitsu flavor than the more flowing and circular post-war aikido. For more info, go to www.aikidoyoshokai.org.

Good topic!

[Paul Kerr]

Yoshinkan aikido certainly has a reputation for being perhaps one of the harder styles of aikido. Within the Aikikai though (the line in which I've always trained) there is an enormous range of stylistic difference amongst teachers and dojos - some very soft and cooperative, some extremely martially oriented.

This diversification in aikido standards/views leads to some of the more interesting/enduring/frustrating :evolved: discussions of efficiency and purity. Suffice to say, I think that if you know what you want from aikido (be it a method of self-defence, or a way to hug trees more happily) you probably can find it, though you might have to search a bit.

[pamiro]

i believe that you cant say kendo is more tiring or difficult than aikido or vice versa.it totally depents where you practice.
i have been practicing aikido for 7 years and since june i have been practicing kendo, except from the stance differences as our friends mentioned, i must say that aikido helped me a lot to improve my kamae in kendo.
the biggest difference that i have found (except from the biggest one which is "there is no battle" in aikido) was the linearity of kendo movements but i must say that this also depends to the type of aikido you are practicing.
at the end when i compare after 4 months of kendo (i know its too early to talk this way ) kendo gives me a bigger challange when i oppose my opponent which is about to give me a big headache if i cant decide well, in iaikido you need years of practice to come to that level of "i am not playing!"
but as i told i am still thinking over the differences everyday i practice....at the end all paths lead to the same place ! dont they?