re: All Japan Police Champs Videos

[Dervish]

I hope this is the right sub-forum.

I downloaded the Police Kendo video that is mentioned in the announcements (found on KW's main page), but all I can get is audio (I'm using VLC). Does anyone here know of a more appropriate video player and/or the proper video driver that I need to watch this?

[shred_lord]

Try FLVS (http://sweb.cityu.edu.hk/50689882/flv.html).

Love the videos

[bullet08]

real player works for me.

pete

[Dervish]

I haven't tried realplayer yet, but FLVS worked like a charm. Thanks guys :)

[Oroshi]

Fantastic videos. Watching these, I want to take up kendo tomorrow.

[Kenshi]

Osaka: This year All Japan titles = 8dan + Todofuken + Police

Hopefully: Kokutai+Senshuken.

Missed out on: Interhigh (girls were close) + Tozai (points).

In otherwords: The home of some of the strongest kendo in Japan.

Yeah baby, yeah.

[Bokushingu]

thanks KWF for posting those videos. The quality was awesome!

[kendokamax]

whats up with hojo.....

[Masahiro]

i agree Hojo looked a bit sluggish, although I don't know the circumstances he or for that matter any other player that day had to deal with. So. .. yeah. :smoker:

[Kenzan]

Fantastic videos. Watching these, I want to take up kendo tomorrow.

Yeah! Me too!

:D

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

I thought Hojo M. looked very good... problem is that Teramoto is trouble haha, and that kote by Isoai doesn´t look kote to me... anyway, I seriously loved the videos, now I´mm having trouble watching those gyokuryuki videos, damn police, damn it, I want to tain, NOW!

[The great I AM]

Osaka: This year All Japan titles = 8dan + Todofuken + Police

Hopefully: Kokutai+Senshuken.

Missed out on: Interhigh (girls were close) + Tozai (points).

In otherwords: The home of some of the strongest kendo in Japan.

Yeah baby, yeah.
Dude, you only LIVE there....remember? You're not actually FROM Kansai.....

You're from Scotland.

In otherwords: The home of some of the most ginger people in the world.

And shit weather.

[shred_lord]

Says the man from England, which got a first hand recreation of Noah's flood this year while Scotland bathed in summer sun!

Mind you, what can I say, I'm only an honourary Scot. :)

[Kenshi]

Dude, you only LIVE there....remember? You're not actually FROM Kansai.....

You're from Scotland.

Thats what it says in my passport! Anyway, I claim the win.

[JoonShik]

I noticed there were a lot of jodan people. Are there usually this man jodan kenshi in the police division? Also, what was the whole thing about during the match with Matsumoto vs. T. Hojo, after the men from Matsumoto (jodan), but only one shimpan raised his flag. Was Hojo just messin around or was there really somethin there?

[kendokamax]

I noticed there were a lot of jodan people. Are there usually this man jodan kenshi in the police division? Also, what was the whole thing about during the match with Matsumoto vs. T. Hojo, after the men from Matsumoto (jodan), but only one shimpan raised his flag. Was Hojo just messin around or was there really somethin there?

I think he lost it. Its weird, not a very good attitude...

[The great I AM]

I noticed there were a lot of jodan people. Are there usually this man jodan kenshi in the police division? Also, what was the whole thing about during the match with Matsumoto vs. T. Hojo, after the men from Matsumoto (jodan), but only one shimpan raised his flag. Was Hojo just messin around or was there really somethin there?

I think he lost it. Its weird, not a very good attitude...Actually Hojo had a very good claim for men, possibly better than Matusmoto's.

I was also there and watching at the time thought it was a bit strong, but watching the video I took of the match, especially in slow-mo to see what all the fuss was about, I can see exactly why he thought it was all his ippon.

To these guys this is one of the biggest competitions of the year, and one they go for particularly hard, and the big guns have a big rivalry too. Energy and passions run very high. Being sat next to the Osaka group in the stands just made it all the more intense!

[kendokamax]

Actually Hojo had a very good claim for men, possibly better than Matusmoto's.

I was also there and watching at the time thought it was a bit strong, but watching the video I took of the match, especially in slow-mo to see what all the fuss was about, I can see exactly why he thought it was all his ippon.

To these guys this is one of the biggest competitions of the year, and one they go for particularly hard, and the big guns have a big rivalry too. Energy and passions run very high. Being sat next to the Osaka group in the stands just made it all the more intense!

Ya i understand all of this, but still he didn't act in a appropriate way. Is this not the reason why a lot of people don't want kendo to be a in the olympics? Then people blam korean kendo for being too sporty, when the best of Japan actually do the same.

[Masahiro]

pardon my ignorance/observation, but how did Hojo act inappropriately?

[kendokamax]

pardon my ignorance/observation, but how did Hojo act inappropriately?


The way he stood there doing nothing moving his arms etc thinking his men was in. Am I the only one bothered by this?

[Masahiro]

hmm. i definately think you are entitled to your opinion. ..although I didn't think his behavior was that offensive. but if he seemed that way to you, that's also fine. since they are at the top tier . .. they are held to the highest standards.

incidently, I thought the kote kaeshi men Hojo executed at 6:54 was spot on, (despite the little pause between the kaeshi part and then men part)

p.s. I thought his men was also there, before Teramoto executed the kaeshi doh. Damn, judging seems really hard!

[kendokamax]

p.s. I thought his men was also there, before Teramoto executed the kaeshi doh. Damn, judging seems really hard!

ya one men really seemed good.

...but still Teramoto is really the king of team matches.

[JSchmidt]

The way he stood there doing nothing moving his arms etc thinking his men was in. Am I the only one bothered by this?

No, it annoyed me too.

[The great I AM]

Ya i understand all of this, but still he didn't act in a appropriate way. Is this not the reason why a lot of people don't want kendo to be a in the olympics? Then people blam korean kendo for being too sporty, when the best of Japan actually do the same.
No, it annoyed me too.I'm sure it did....

I would love to say "yeah, they are wankers for being so unsportsmanlike" but this happens at every level here. E V E R Y level. I've seen it in the Police Taikai (in every round, including the group) the All Japans (yup, I saw a VERY famous kenshi basically shout at all the referees, in the middle of the budoukan), and the Kantou Gakusei Taikai. I even saw shades of it today in the Shinjuku Taikai, which is a local thing. You can be a samurai all you like, but when you want to win, you want to win. I've displayed my disbelief at shinpan in the shiajo before too. So I can relate to this. When you throw everything you truly have at a guy and lose a shitty ippon, or don't get one that could potentially win your team the match, you're annoyed. Some people show it, others don't. Yet others again will argue that one way is better than the other, having potentially not been in that sort of situation themselves.

If you want something bad enough then no matter how much you try to control yourself if it doesn't go your way you'll be pissed, and some people are simply better at hiding it than others, like Hojo senior. Guarantee that something was said to his little brother, like something was said to the young guys over celebrating in other teams, in fact immediately. I've had things said to me before from my teacher, even after winning entire team competitions, because me teacher thought my behaviour inappropriate, and he was right (and here's the punch, I LEARNED FROM IT). I wont defend it, but emotions do run high, and no amount of saying "it's inappropriate" will stop people getting wound up by big events. If you can learn from these things then so much the better, and you can take something from it, even when losing.

I've no doubt many people will agree with this, but these guys aren't robots, they are human, and have high running emotions like anything else. They aren't samurai or gods, no matter how much people want them to be.

[JSchmidt]

I'm confused here, Gibbo. Do you think it's ok or not?

[hobbit]

It's human.

[D'Artagnan]

I'm sure it did....

I would love to say "yeah, they are wankers for being so unsportsmanlike" but this happens at every level here. E V E R Y level. I've seen it in the Police Taikai (in every round, including the group) the All Japans (yup, I saw a VERY famous kenshi basically shout at all the referees, in the middle of the budoukan), and the Kantou Gakusei Taikai. I even saw shades of it today in the Shinjuku Taikai, which is a local thing. You can be a samurai all you like, but when you want to win, you want to win. I've displayed my disbelief at shinpan in the shiajo before too. So I can relate to this. When you throw everything you truly have at a guy and lose a shitty ippon, or don't get one that could potentially win your team the match, you're annoyed. Some people show it, others don't. Yet others again will argue that one way is better than the other, having potentially not been in that sort of situation themselves.

If you want something bad enough then no matter how much you try to control yourself if it doesn't go your way you'll be pissed, and some people are simply better at hiding it than others, like Hojo senior. Guarantee that something was said to his little brother, like something was said to the young guys over celebrating in other teams, in fact immediately. I've had things said to me before from my teacher, even after winning entire team competitions, because me teacher thought my behaviour inappropriate, and he was right (and here's the punch, I LEARNED FROM IT). I wont defend it, but emotions do run high, and no amount of saying "it's inappropriate" will stop people getting wound up by big events. If you can learn from these things then so much the better, and you can take something from it, even when losing.

I've no doubt many people will agree with this, but these guys aren't robots, they are human, and have high running emotions like anything else. They aren't samurai or gods, no matter how much people want them to be.

Can't give you +rep 'cause you have too much - apparently! haha

but it's a cracking post!

[nebosuke]

I'm sure it did....

I would love to say "yeah, they are wankers for being so unsportsmanlike" but this happens at every level here. E V E R Y level. I've seen it in the Police Taikai (in every round, including the group) the All Japans (yup, I saw a VERY famous kenshi basically shout at all the referees, in the middle of the budoukan), and the Kantou Gakusei Taikai. I even saw shades of it today in the Shinjuku Taikai, which is a local thing. You can be a samurai all you like, but when you want to win, you want to win. I've displayed my disbelief at shinpan in the shiajo before too. So I can relate to this. When you throw everything you truly have at a guy and lose a shitty ippon, or don't get one that could potentially win your team the match, you're annoyed. Some people show it, others don't. Yet others again will argue that one way is better than the other, having potentially not been in that sort of situation themselves.

If you want something bad enough then no matter how much you try to control yourself if it doesn't go your way you'll be pissed, and some people are simply better at hiding it than others, like Hojo senior. Guarantee that something was said to his little brother, like something was said to the young guys over celebrating in other teams, in fact immediately. I've had things said to me before from my teacher, even after winning entire team competitions, because me teacher thought my behaviour inappropriate, and he was right (and here's the punch, I LEARNED FROM IT). I wont defend it, but emotions do run high, and no amount of saying "it's inappropriate" will stop people getting wound up by big events. If you can learn from these things then so much the better, and you can take something from it, even when losing.

I've no doubt many people will agree with this, but these guys aren't robots, they are human, and have high running emotions like anything else. They aren't samurai or gods, no matter how much people want them to be.

I think that is all understood, but it misses the point and lowers kendo to the point of only being a sport. If we were talking about the all Japan high school championships, I could see your point IF they were reprimanded for the behavior with hansoku. However, if these guys have been learning from their mistakes all along as you say, they're learning at a very slow pace compared to pace of their shiai kendo.

The stated concept of kendo is "...to discipline the human character through the application of the principles of the Katana." By this standard how can the behavior be excused? They are high-ranking, high-profile members of the kendo community, and their actions set example to everyone below them. Anybody that has made it as far as kodansha should have more poise than a guy on the bball court in the park.

Am I being idealistic? You bet I am, and I think we should all be striving towards that ideal. Either that or give up the idea of kendo being more than sport, dress up in our country flag hakamas and get John McEnroe with it.

We're all human, and our kendo will never be perfect. But we should all be striving for perfection. Note that by "kendo", I mean our character.

Feel free to disagree, of course, this is just how I see it.

[Kenshi]

I think we have to understand that this shiai is not for run of the mill nobodies like you and I, but these guys are professionals and are under a lot of pressure to win (its good for their careers for example). They are also v.competitive people in their own right... otherwise they wouldnt be there in the first place. Actually, I cant really concieve of what shiai for them means or is like... despite watching high-level shiai like this all the time and counting prefectural level kenshi amongst my friends/sempai.

Ive seen a lot more shiai in Japan (and of different types) than Gibbo or probably most people (?) on this forum: you do see this happening, but its not common. Primary school kids act up and get petulant or cry, but generally you dont see it. When you do see it (in adults) its dissapointing and no one likes it. More so if they are as skilled as the people in this video.

I found/find the crowd boo-ing and team yeah-we-kick-ass-shouting at World and European championships much more degrading to kendo as a whole because in these cases its not about an individuals emotions or frustrations, but about a groups.

As far as living by the "principles of the katana," im pretty much sure that your average policeman isnt pondering the words of Yagyu Munenori when hes standing in front of the latest young gun from xx-prefecture.

[The great I AM]

I'm confused here, Gibbo. Do you think it's ok or not?

It's human.There you go Jakob.

It's not a question of OK or not. Of course its not "ok", but its also a human reaction to a stressful situation, so I won't really go out of my way to say "yeah, his attitude sucks big time balls." In an ideal world we would all be kendo robots showing no emotion and feeling nothing, I'm sure.

And I've seen far worse, like George says, at the Euros and WKC. Hardly a peep out of anyone here for that rubbish, but it happens all the same.

[kendokamax]

I was just saying I thought it was innapropriate. I think everyone knows that these guy have a lot of pressure to win and that they are human.
There is things that with time you regret doing, hopefully he felt like that.

On a side note, because of the intensity of these shiai they seem really exciting. I sure prefer these than some of the boring All Japan matches.
For me kendo with no apparent feeling sucks, but shooting at the judge sucks too.

[The great I AM]

Am I being idealistic? You bet I am, and I think we should all be striving towards that ideal. Either that or give up the idea of kendo being more than sport, dress up in our country flag hakamas and get John McEnroe with it.

We're all human, and our kendo will never be perfect. But we should all be striving for perfection. Note that by "kendo", I mean our character.

Feel free to disagree, of course, this is just how I see it.I do actually agree with you (though not about it lowering kendo to "sport" - although a momentary loss of discipline may seem to shocking to us none-samurai, I also don't think its the be all and end all, and I think that these guys probably have a decent enough attitude for the most part), and I do think its not cricket, but I also know from my own experience that no matter how hard we try at something there are times like this when we fail. And I think its exactly these times that we learn from. Otherwise we'd all be perfect human beings.

On a side note, because of the intensity of these shiai they seem really exciting. I sure prefer these than some of the boring All Japan matches.You betcha! This was the best taikai I have EVER watched, by a country mile!

[Kenshi]

On a side note, because of the intensity of these shiai they seem really exciting. I sure prefer these than some of the boring All Japan matches.

As Gibbos quote....

You betcha! This was the best taikai I have EVER watched, by a country mile!

.... illustrates, there are lots of better shiai to go and watch out there. In particular the yosens (qualifiers) for the All Japans, todofuken, and kokutai have been real eye openers for me. They are all better than watching a shiai at the budokan for one particular reason: there is nothing between you and the fencers. You can feel the fumikomi and - occassionally - someone lands on you!!

Heres a pic of the legendary Teramoto (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eikenkai/777274280/in/set-72157594557594601/) to illustrate the closeness (and also to attest to the godly might of Osaka!)

[nebosuke]

There you go Jakob.
And I've seen far worse, like George says, at the Euros and WKC. Hardly a peep out of anyone here for that rubbish, but it happens all the same.

That was actually one part of my earlier reply that I edited out before submitting as to not muddy the discussion further. I wasn't at the last WKC, only seen some videos and heard some stories. One vid in particular showed a USA member celebrate their points, and that did embarrassed me.

Another situation with emotions running high, and unfortunately another failure to remain composed. It had the potential of costing the US the win, I imagine if it had actually come to that, a lot more attention would be paid to etiquette in these years to follow. Unfortunately, it would have also stirred up a storm of controversy since it would have given Japan an awkward win. Accusations and conspiracy theories would have followed.

I've thought of posting about it before, but it usually seems to not be worth the blow back. Guess I was just extra bored today.

[waiwilly]

Hi guys,

I can't argue that the taikai is great.

I just notice something on the finals video. it's on 2.06 minutes (Kiwada Vs Oda). Since i've seen many times. i try to focus on watching the matches on the other court. And i see a player kick/sweep his opponent (as i see it he did it purposely) and when the opponent fell he strikes a men. no flag raised. no-hansoku either.

i just want to know you guys opinion about it.

thx

[The great I AM]

Hi guys,

I can't argue that the taikai is great.

I just notice something on the finals video. it's on 2.06 minutes (Kiwada Vs Oda). Since i've seen many times. i try to focus on watching the matches on the other court. And i see a player kick/sweep his opponent (as i see it he did it purposely) and when the opponent fell he strikes a men. no flag raised. no-hansoku either.

i just want to know you guys opinion about it.

thxAs far as I understand it ashibarai is allowed (ie not hansoku) in the Police Taikai, though maybe they just accept a greater level of rough and tumble, but like I said, AFAIK its ok.

[JSchmidt]

Another question to those who were there:
I was told that one of the changes they are trying to implement, is to force people out of tsubazeria, both by decreasing the time 'allowed' to 10 seconds and be more strict with giving hansoku's for time-wasting.
They were going to try it out in police competitions first and looking at those videos, it seems to work?. None of the usual long dances in tsubazeria and people seem far more willing to separate when they get in there.
That is a positive development (In my book, anyway)

Jakob

[The great I AM]

Another question to those who were there:
I was told that one of the changes they are trying to implement, is to force people out of tsubazeria, both by decreasing the time 'allowed' to 10 seconds and be more strict with giving hansoku's for time-wasting.
They were going to try it out in police competitions first and looking at those videos, it seems to work?. None of the usual long dances in tsubazeria and people seem far more willing to separate when they get in there.
That is a positive development (In my book, anyway)

JakobAnother "as I understand it" but the police taikai has been this way for a while.

[kendokamax]

An other question.

I have seen on an other video before that they had hantei for team matches. Does it still apply? Or maybe it was an other police shiai.

[JSchmidt]

No, the article on KW explains it: 5 min + 3 min encho and then hikiwake if it's still drawn.

[Gessho]

Very nice video quality. Thanks to the cameraperson who made that video.

On a side note, our sensei would never allow us to do kendo like that. Koike Sensei insists that a good cut must come with zanshin and dignity (I am paraphrasing, of course). All of that bobbing and weaving would result in a strong verbal drubbing and a fierce round of basics thereafter.

[The great I AM]

On a side note, our sensei would never allow us to do kendo like that. Koike Sensei insists that a good cut must come with zanshin and dignity (I am paraphrasing, of course). All of that bobbing and weaving would result in a strong verbal drubbing and a fierce round of basics thereafter.YEAH, how dare they do kendo like that! Clearly inferior!

[Gessho]

YEAH, how dare they do kendo like that! Clearly inferior!

OK,OK...I should have known this would happen and please let me stop this before it gets out of hand! :eek:

I was only remarking on the difference between my local kendo community and these guys. Yes, they are fast and furious and I assume this is the "correct way" to do kendo, especially in a tournament, etc.

Seriously, though, does anyone think that the "tournament style" is a bit to ostentatious considering kendo's origins? These guys reminded me of what Western fencers look and sound like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dCa7_BlCVs ?

[ahmed61086]

OK,OK...I should have known this would happen and please let me stop this before it gets out of hand! :eek:

I was only remarking on the difference between my local kendo community and these guys. Yes, they are fast and furious and I assume this is the "correct way" to do kendo, especially in a tournament, etc.

Seriously, though, does anyone think that the "tournament style" is a bit to ostentatious considering kendo's origins? These guys reminded me of what Western fencers look and sound like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dCa7_BlCVs ?

Their kendo doesn't remind me of that garbage on any day.


Btw, whats up with that chick in the video(or is it a guy with long hair?) taking a dump on the floor after he scores a point?!

[The great I AM]

OK,OK...I should have known this would happen and please let me stop this before it gets out of hand! :eek:

I was only remarking on the difference between my local kendo community and these guys. Yes, they are fast and furious and I assume this is the "correct way" to do kendo, especially in a tournament, etc.

Seriously, though, does anyone think that the "tournament style" is a bit to ostentatious considering kendo's origins? These guys reminded me of what Western fencers look and sound like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dCa7_BlCVs ?Doesn't remind me a single bit of it. Shiai is as much a part of kendo as anything else, like gradings, kata and tsuki, and all the hachidan's and big nobs that appear to be above it now have all already been through it. I think its simply one step in a long walk for these guys, and I'm sure they view it as important.

I would also suggest that there may be some significant differences between these guys and your local community. Not saying it in any bad way, but those differences are important none the less.

[Ignatz]

Doesn't remind me a single bit of it. Shiai is as much a part of kendo as anything else, like gradings, kata and tsuki, and all the hachidan's and big nobs that appear to be above it now have all already been through it. I think its simply one step in a long walk for these guys, and I'm sure they view it as important.

I would also suggest that there may be some significant differences between these guys and your local community. Not saying it in any bad way, but those differences are important none the less.

Oooooh, you are growing up. Soon you will learn how to pour beer then, grasshopper, you will be ready to leave the temple.

[ahmed61086]

I think "shiai style" kendo is important for anyones development when it comes to kendo.

I have seen a lot of people who since the very beginning of their kendo career have done everything exactly by the book. Everything realy straight and proper, which is great. But it seems to me that they dont progress as fast or become as fluid and natural in their movements as other people who take there kendo in steps, so-to-speak.

I know I have been going in steps a lot, but I see huge improvememts over time. I actually felt that I might have moved backwards a little bit in my overzealousness of keeping my back leg so straight for a long time, since I realy just wasn't ready for it. I also learned that I was probably keeping it a little too straight, rigid, and unflexible.

I could be totally wrong in my assesment though.

[The great I AM]

Oooooh, you are growing up. Soon you will learn how to pour beer then, grasshopper, you will be ready to leave the temple.Cheers, old man. I'll take that as a compliment....

[Ignatz]

Good view kiddo, it was meant to be.

[The great I AM]

Thanks dad.

[bullet08]

not to argue.. or to drag out the thread.. but why is it okay for one japanese policeman.. specially ranking one who is at top of their game to make simple emotional slip, but it's not okay for american or european teams to do so? i would think it would be seen as perfectly normal for people to let their emotions out in such situations, even if the kendo that we practice looks down on such behavior. i think we are too concerned with what would typical japanese people think when we preach to others that we are not samurai and we live in 21st centry.

pete

[Kenshi]

My comment was that an individual who makes a slip is just that, an individual. It can be an honest slip, or they could just be their character. Groups that do it tend to be showing something else, a trend or a pattern.

An individual who believes in one thing is really nothing. Have a group of them (and a sizeable number) and they have the power to affect change and to dominate things.

i think we are too concerned with what would typical japanese people think when we preach to others that we are not samurai and we live in 21st centry.

Im not sure I get your point here.

One of the commandments of kendo is "Respect thy partner" which - as far as I can see - doesnt belong to any particular culture.

[JByrd]

I'm not very experienced, so maybe it is not hard to see why I find it difficult to reconcile what I see on those kinds of matches, and how we are instructed and trained.

One guy is hunched over with his knees bent, and he swipes at another guy's kote with nearly a horizontal stroke. Three flags go up, and I honestly don't get why.

On slow motion, some of the points taken really appear to have not landed very well.

Shiai competitors are clearly not required to keep an upright posture, and use clean footwork to obtain points even at the very highest level. I wonder if letting those features of Kendo go to the dogs makes it possible to get the shinai on the opponent so fast that even the most experienced judges cannot tell a solid hit from a bad one.

[JoDuncan]

OK, pretty cool video... question for you guys.

The jodan player hits hiki kote for ippon, the zanshin is like how i've seen it elsewhere but why was there no "actual" zanshin i.e. the other guy hit him twice on the head as he moved back.
Zanshin as a movement, as an actual position, has always confused me. I don't know why this "is zanshin" if it leaves you wide open... :(

[JoDuncan]

Shodai was his name.

[ahmed61086]

Would have have been able to cut his men without his hand?

It was zanshin because he showed total commitment, by moving back with confidence(not blocking, ect). The guy didn't want to recognise he was hit so he kept going at shodai, but that doesn't matter, because his hand was allready cut off.

[nebosuke]

Would have have been able to cut his men without his hand?

He still has another hand, the one most often used with katate waza, so yes. Or what if the hand was merely wounded which is more likely than totally severed? Kind of pointless speculation as this isn't reality, and the point was already awarded anyway.

It was zanshin because he showed total commitment, by moving back with confidence(not blocking, ect). The guy didn't want to recognise he was hit so he kept going at shodai, but that doesn't matter, because his hand was allready cut off.

To me, the zanshin he was showing is more a selling the point type than the idea of zanshin. But it's certainly popular now and how it seems most people are being taught. If he had returned to kamae during zanshin, showing awareness, there would have been no opening for the following men.

[lucy]

Following the Cyber Dojo zanshin in hiki waza needs to be displayed by taking chudan...

Just thought I'd throw that out here. :wink:

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

it was nuki kote, not hiki kote people...

[lucy]

;287064']it was nuki kote, not hiki kote people...

Ok, sorry, I just wrote it because Jo had mentioned hiki kote... Didn't watch the vid again to check.

[ahmed61086]

He still has another hand, the one most often used with katate waza, so yes. Or what if the hand was merely wounded which is more likely than totally severed? Kind of pointless speculation as this isn't reality, and the point was already awarded anyway.



To me, the zanshin he was showing is more a selling the point type than the idea of zanshin. But it's certainly popular now and how it seems most people are being taught. If he had returned to kamae during zanshin, showing awareness, there would have been no opening for the following men.

Well I agree with you on the second point, but, in Shiai, selling the point is zanshin.

[Kenshi]

You just have to watch more shiai, and of different types. Competing is also required. Then the "what is zanshin?" and "what is ippon?" questions can be more easily answered satisfactorily by yourself.

i.e. experience.

[kenwakokoro]

I do actually agree with you (though not about it lowering kendo to "sport" - although a momentary loss of discipline may seem to shocking to us none-samurai, I also don't think its the be all and end all, and I think that these guys probably have a decent enough attitude for the most part), and I do think its not cricket, but I also know from my own experience that no matter how hard we try at something there are times like this when we fail. And I think its exactly these times that we learn from. Otherwise we'd all be perfect human beings.


This has been a very interesting discussion. On one side is an idealistic point of view, that expects a high standard of reigi in shiai, especially at the highest levels. On the other side is a pragmatic point of view which recognizes the importance of reigi, but undersands that human passions inevitably run high. This is the case especially in the highest level competitions where competitor's livelihoods are at stake and years of arduous training have been invested. It seems to me the discussion pivots about what are the sources of discipline in kendo. The focus of the debate has been on the self-discipline of the competitors. The IKF shiai regulations are unambiguous regarding improper behavior towards shinpan and opponents:

Chapter 3, Section 1, Article 16: "Shiai-sha are prohibited from insulting or acting offensively against Shinpan-in or opponents"
Chapter 3, Section 1, Article 18: "Shiai-sha who has committed Honsoku prescribed in Articles 15 (drug use) and Article 16 shall lose Shiai and be ordered to retire from the Shiai area, whereas the opponent shall be given two points. The points or the status gained by the above loser shall be totally nullified"

When the self-discipline of a competitor breaks down, its the responsibility of the shinpan to enforce discipline. Has anyone ever seen the above rules enforced? If the rule is enforced, what is the proper way for a shinpan to carry out the ruling?

Michael

[Masahiro]

don't know about the 1st rule . as for "drugging", there's no way that they'd find out fast enough. I've never been or seen people being tested for "substance abuse". As a matter of fact, you can probably get away with doing kendo drunk. (depending on the legally BAC of each state). So long as the individual doesn't act out. Some of these guys who bragg about "oh i was so hung over , yet i still passed my dan test". Is that what a good kenshi is suppose to do? well, that's up to your own interpretation of what "kendo means to you". So, yeah. My view will always remain as follow, for those few who truely do kendo in order to "preserve" kendo, they will hold themselves to the highest standards. Others who like to "play" kendo or "act" like they are doing kendo shouldn't be anyone else's concern. :dog:

[Halcyon]

I've never been or seen people being tested for "substance abuse".
That may change. One result of FIK joining the GAISF (General Association of International Sports Federations) last year was that FIK was obligated to form an anti-doping committee. This came up at an AUSKF board of directors meeting as well. Who knows, FIK may have blood and urine tests at future world championships.