Samurai jitsu?

[ian woods]

hi guys
we dont do kendo kata in class (as far as i know) only been doing kendo for 3 weeks or so.
we do somthing called samurai jitsu ...anyone haerd of this..
done with boken
eg: ippon me
Step right foot forward*straight cut*step back*chiburi*re-sheath*bow

nihhon me
Step right foot forward*Angel cut top right ,bottom stepback*chiburi*re-sheath*bow

sanbon me
Step right foot forward*straight cut*turn 180*straight cut step back*chiburi*re-sheath*bow

an so on

thanks

[cazoo]

i think that's iai

[tango]

sounds like iai to me, too...
only.. not sei-tei-iai, but some other kind of iai form(s)...?


tango
who does not do iaido

[Eldritch Knight]

Samurai-jitsu? Sounds like a made-up american name to me. It should be pronounced ji-jutsu, if anything.

[ben]

Samurai-jitsu? Sounds like a made-up american name to me. It should be pronounced ji-jutsu, if anything.

I think you mean jujutsu, which is something else entirely.

Does sound a bit like iaido but "Samurai jitsu"? Oh dear. Where on earth do you do kendo? Are you teaching yourselves out of a book? There are plenty of reputable dojos in SA. They can be found by going to:
www.kendoaustralia.asn.au

I hope you're part of a keen bunch of country kids 1000kms from the nearest dojo, and not some McKurrottyDojo professing to teach actual kendo.

b

[Hyaku]

An angel cut?

[aru-ma]

An angel cut?

you KNOW he meant angle cut, though that'd be a funny thought

Samurai jitsu? never heard of it though like everyone else it does sound like iai.

[Eldritch Knight]

No, I mean "jijutsu". "Ji" is another way that you can pronounce the character for samurai, and when used with the word for "jutsu", you have to use that pronunciation.

[ben]

No, I mean "jijutsu". "Ji" is another way that you can pronounce the character for samurai, and when used with the word for "jutsu", you have to use that pronunciation.


My apologies. You're correct of course. However I still think the phrase smacks of home-made budo. Samurai, meaning "one who serves" was not a term commonly used by samurai to describe themselves. They more usually called themselves 'bushi'. So I would be surprised to learn that an art called "samurai/ji-jutsu" has a long history.

Still curious about this dojo.

b

[Shiro]

It's been a year I practice kendo and I've never heard of it...

There are several sets of exercises done with a boken, though, so it might be one that isn't really known. But then again, the name samurai-jitsu sounds a bit weird to me.

[J. Schitt]

It's been a year I practice kendo and I've never heard of it...

There are several sets of exercises done with a boken, though, so it might be one that isn't really known. But then again, the name samurai-jitsu sounds a bit weird to me.


... and an expert already.

J/

[J. Schitt]

sorry clicked twice.

[z3ngine]

hi guys
we dont do kendo kata in class (as far as i know)...
we do somthing called samurai jitsu ...
thanks
Hello,

Angus-san here from Ian's dojo (are you coming back Ian?). I am by no means an expert (having studied only 3 years/to 7th kyu) but I can offer some comments to clarify the questions/concerns about our dojo/style.

[Kendo Kata] - we do indeed practice Kendo Kata and it is fundamental to our dojo (Ian - I'm surprised you haven't seen it yet although your original post was from October last year so you may have seen it since?). We practiced Kendo Kata last Thursday (5th Feb).

[Samurai-jutsu] - cazoo, tango and others are spot on - it is a form like iai but definitely not iai-do (which I regard and respect as a very pefect and precise form) and we would never claim it to be as good as well-practiced iai-do. It is my understanding that iai-do was developed as a "more perfect and precise" form of samurai-jutsu which was also known as iai-jutsu? This would suggest that samurai-jutsu does have a long history but I would need to research it to confirm.

I respect the comments that the term "samurai-jutsu" sounds as though it should encompass all arts of the samurai - not just sword. To clarify, perhaps "samurai-kenjutsu" or simply "iai-jutsu" would describe these forms better - although I have no plans to urge our Shihan to change it.

[Dojo] - I'm happy to say ours is not a McDojo :) (I have seen many a McDojo in my search for good Karate instruction. In my opinion there is nothing more dangerous than a McBlackBelt believing he/she has the skills of an authentic black belt and placing themselves in dangerous situations etc.). Our Shihan (officially Renshi) is 6th Dan Kendo trained in Japan and, while our club is small and not associated with the Australian Kendo Renmei, we are regarded by visitors from the other South Australian kendo dojos (university based) as being of a high standard. Ian - for your info - there is to be a cross dojo mini-tournament (can't remember official japanese term) with the uni clubs - it should provide a good benchmark! On that, I suppose that by not being affiliated with the AKR our students could have concerns that we are grading inappropriately (better to grade too slow than too fast) so the Sempai are seeking out these types of tournaments (and ones like the national tournament in Easter) to use as benchmarks. I feel confident that we'll perform well !

I have only just stumbled across this forum so I'll be keen to read about other dojos, their terminology and training formats.

Thanks,

z3ngine..

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'm happy to say ours is not a McDojo

Perhaps not, but I've never heard of a kendo instructor referred to as shihan, certainly not one who is only rokudan. Samurai-jutsu is clearly a made-up term as well, so my bs detector is on alert already.

[AlexM]

Hello,

Angus-san here from Ian's dojo (are you coming back Ian?). I am by no means an expert (having studied only 3 years/to 7th kyu) but I can offer some comments to clarify the questions/concerns about our dojo/style.
..

Wait... three years and you're 7th kyu??? That makes no sense. You should be at least ikkyu by now, probably sho-dan... I don't even think they grade for 7th kyu in Australia. It should start at 6th kyu. That sends up a few red flags for me... has this club got a website?

[Dan Shea]

I smell baffling budo. :chinese:
What was the name of this dojo and where is it located?

[z3ngine]

Wait... three years and you're 7th kyu??? That makes no sense. You should be at least ikkyu by now, probably sho-dan... I don't even think they grade for 7th kyu in Australia. It should start at 6th kyu. That sends up a few red flags for me... has this club got a website?
I feel I'm being asked to defend the legitimacy of my Dojo here, but I don't want to get into flamewars on semantics defining the legitimacy of our Kendo style (but) I will try to address the concerns one by one as they are raised.

[3 years to 7th kyu] - its interesting that I've just been reading another topic in this forum discussing this very thing (under 'Gradings') and it seems to be a regional difference. To summarise: Dojos in Canada/US seem to have a quick progression to ikkyu at which point you settle in to pursue mastering kendo by grueling progression through the Dans. Dojos in Australia/New Zealand (and Germany?) focus on a grueling progression through the kyus before reaching ikkyu. I imagine it would all balance out somewhere along the line (3rd-4th dan?). Full discussion/debate is available on that other topic so head over there to read about it...

[7th kyu vs. starting at 6th] - Again there is a topic on this in the forums and the difference is somewhat regional but moreso on a dojo by dojo basis. Again head over to that thread for discussion/debate but I will try to summarise: (seems to be) most Canada/US dojos go from 6 kyu-1 kyu-dans, some dojos go from 10 kyu-1 kyu-dans (this is what ours does (AUS) although AlexM may be correct in saying that the Aus styles he's aware of start from 6 - could be an "affiliate vs. non affililate of the Aust Kendo Renmei" difference?) and some go from 13th kyu although that tends to be more for the benefit of children who needs smaller steps in between to keep them encouraged.

[semantics] - I have to default to the respect I have for our teacher here. If he asks to be called Shihan then I shall (no, must) call him that. If he asks that we call our exercise "samurai-jutsu" (which I described as closest to iai-jutsu) then I will respect that request and won't be so rude as to question it.

[where/website] - we are a small independent Dojo in Adelaide, South Australia: "Ito's Kendo Juku". We don't have a website (yet - I will post in the 'Dojo' section of the forum if/when we get one) but contact details for our dojo are at: http://www.sportzblitz.net/club-directory/club-listings.php?search%5Bcity%5D=&search%5Bstate%5D=SA&search%5Bstate_int%5D=&search%5Bstyles%5D=Kendo&Submit=Submit. If anyone on the list is in South Australia (living or visiting) and wants to check us out, you're more than welcome! (every Monday and Thursday night - maybe ring Shihan first to be polite).

[summary] - I'm very happy with our style and despite our regional obscurity we do have a choice in Adelaide (2 uni-based kendo clubs and many iaido clubs). In terms of rank (and the comparative slow progression through the kyu) I fall into the category of those not concerned with rank but with personal perception of growth within kendo and its philosophies. That said, I'm still eager to "test" myself against our worthy local kendoka and have plans to travel overseas to experience different standards/styles.

[digress] - My Japan plans are almost set but I have always wanted to go to Canada and it looks like there are plenty of active clubs there (based on the feedback I see on this forum)! Are all Canadian Dojo under the CKF - that is, is this list http://kendo-canada.com/ckf_dojoadr.htm a pretty comprehensive list of Canadian Dojos to visit?


Thanks,

z3ngine..

[AlexM]

My estimate of ikkyu or shodan after three years was based on what I know about grading in Oz. I've never heard of anyone having 7th kyu. If you don't have any grade then you'd be a mu-kyu. Essentially non-kyu.

If you're not a member of the Oz kendo renmei than of course one has to wonder whether or not you actually practice the kendo that most of us here are used to. Can you compete in Australian competions? Grade with them? What's the story here.

After 3 years of kendo you should be a bit better than me and I'm ranked shodan.

I'm not questionning your dojo (actually I am) but I am wondering about why you would have such harsh standards... even the Germans aren't so tough and they're notorious for being sticklers (and yet still don't compare favourably with other Europeans). I've never heard of 7th kyu in kendo: that's all.

All kendo dojo in Canada are CKF members. The only other ones I can think of are a "shinkendo" place in Rimouski (je te le jure!) and some phone number belonging to a "karate" school that was listed as the Quebec Kendo Fedration in the phone book (no such thing exists). The telephone number simply leads to an answering machine of the karate school.

[justforkendo]

OK Everyone. Here are some answers on this Dojo "Ito's kendo juku"

If I offend you Z3ngine sorry. But this is from experiance. Ito sensei is not 6th dan. Maybe about a 3rd dan. His Karate is much better than his kendo. I started kendo with him a long time ago, back then I had a lot of fun and thought it was great. (it was better than it is now) He almost had a good class. I trained with him for about 2.5 years, not completly wasted but I wish I found a better club sooner. He is a really nice man, he's not got a lot know how when it comes to kendo. When he started teaching us kata he could'nt remember much at all, he filled the gaps in himself. Teaching Karate/Kendo is his only income (at least at that time it was) so he needs to teach. I later moved to another city and continued kendo, WOW I was blown away. The things people could tell me, teach me WOW. It was fantastic, The level of the beginners and the pace which people improve and the clarity of thier kendo was outstanding.

I mentioned before that it was better back then. Well for everyone else listen to this and correct me if I'm wrong Z3ngine. After about 6 years out of Adelaide but on a visit home I decided to visit the dojo, say hello and have a look. (He is a nice man) Well the only word that comes to mind is "DOWNHILL" I was shocked with what I saw. Kendo is a modern form of, or a evolution of the things we think of as sword arts. But this is bad. I was welcomed to watch and we chatted for a while, and I sat through the class and though SHIT lucky I got out. First up was kata (samurai jitsu???) This is nothing but something the sensei has dreamed up. He said to me Australians are not suited to kendo training, so he wanted to make it interesting. (Lots of people would qit his classes. More than usual) He said people got bored of just kendo training. I feel sorry for all the poor souls how gave up kendo after a stint at this club. After kata
They trained the whole class out of bogu, doing waza with no bogu. They would make openings like a motodachi would and the person doing the waza would pull it short and not hit the target. I was horrified. I thought for sure I would see someone lose an eye. (These poor students are no masters) If he wasnt a karate sensei I am sure he could'nt a teaching license( not even from the corn flakes box).
When it came to jigeiko time the faces on the students started to beam. They started donning elbow,wrist and forearm guards. They looked llike an army of robocops. Really messy 'n' ugly. Barbaric.

The student were having a great time, they were really enjoying it. They just dont know any better.

Adelaide is soo small, There are no grading, comps. or anything offical so clubs like this can survive just with the few people who stick at it.

The uni. clubs in adelaide have no sensei and are the same people at both clubs, but the level is great( They have to travel but they get exposed to the wider kendo community in australia)

When I left Ito' kendo juku it was hard for me, like I said he is a nice man. But wow it was the best thing I ever did.

[z3ngine]

OK Everyone. Here are some answers on this Dojo "Ito's kendo juku"

If I offend you Z3ngine sorry. But this is from experiance...
wow justforkendo - thanks for the reply !! (no offence taken at all - this is good insight) Like I mentioned in an earlier post we have a "benchmarking" issue in knowing where we stand with respect to other students but are unsure how our skills compare to other schools (in not being in the AKR). Your experience sounds like a suitable benchmark (including your more recent visit) so thank you for sharing your experience ! I guess Adelaide does suffer from being too small... I will therefore humbly raise my hand and suggest I am one of those you describe as "having a great time, but not knowing any better" (ignorance is bliss?)

I won't correct you on the messy (and you forgot overly-vicious? oh right: "barbaric") jigeiko statement because I agree - although, in my own defence, I will say this is due to some individuals doing it this way and never being corrected; there are some of us (and I include myself) of much calmer mind and the resulting accuracy that comes from it. I am wondering when you came to visit (and if it was during my era) - maybe (if its OK) you could email me zengine@gamma.com.au to talk more about the club and your experiences elsewhere. I too will one day break free of Adelaide and study OS and its sounding like it will be a good eye-opener :)

To answer AlexM we can compete in the Oz competitions if we pay the AKR affiliate member fee (which some do - I haven't yet but I'm itching to compete so I will) but we grade (at least at during kyu's) within the club. Thanks for the Canada info - I will use the CKF directory as a guide !

z3ngine.

[minjih]

z3ngine:

I am surprised and thoroughly impressed at the manner in which you received and replied to justforkendo's post! Not many people react so well to such comments (justified or not) about their club.

If your reaction is anything to go by, I'd say you are well and truly on your way to a very fruitful and rewarding kendo career in terms of learning only the best from your current and future sensei. I commend you for that!

Justforkendo wrote of his experience at watching the jigeiko session: "...They started donning elbow,wrist and forearm guards. They looked llike an army of robocops...". Was this really the case? Were none of the trainees participating in jigeiko wearing proper bogu and attire?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Thanks for the Canada info - I will use the CKF directory as a guide !
Do you know where you are travelling and how long you will be staying? We can maybe recommend some specific places for you. I think you will find most Canadian dojo quite a change from your normal training.

[justforkendo]

z3ngine:
"...They started donning elbow,wrist and forearm guards. They looked llike an army of robocops..."[/I]. Was this really the case? Were none of the trainees participating in jigeiko wearing proper bogu and attire?

They wore all the above plus bogu etc.

Z3ngine I visited the club, about Jan. or Feb. 2002. At the church hall in collinswood. This is a different hall to where I used to train, but same suburb. Like I said in my last message he's about 3rd dan. (back then) So he can do kendo but as you mentioned there is no correction what so ever. So some students can develop ok, if they have good eyes( but would be great at another dojo). The other students without guidence develop into something else less than what they should be. And now they are learning this Samurai Jitsu. Poor guys.

[litige]

All kendo dojo in Canada are CKF members. The only other ones I can think of are a "shinkendo" place in Rimouski (je te le jure!)

??wtf?? shinkendo? Mckendo? McMartialart?

RISMOUSKI?? bin coudonc, j'aurai bien y allé, éé.

[litige]

??wtf?? shinkendo? Mckendo? McMartialart?

RISMOUSKI?? bin coudonc, j'aurai bien y allé, éé.


Sorry, off-topic by a mile.

[z3ngine]

I am surprised and thoroughly impressed at the manner in which you received and replied to justforkendo's post! Not many people react so well to such comments (justified or not) about their club.

If your reaction is anything to go by, I'd say you are well and truly on your way to a very fruitful and rewarding kendo career in terms of learning only the best from your current and future sensei. I commend you for that!
*blush* thank you minjih - thats very encouraging! While the news is disappointing for me I wouldn't let pride turn this into anger. At the same time the news is exciting - in that there is so much more to learn and look forward to!

[Neil] - I won't be in Canada for a while (its a long-er term goal) but I will be in Japan in 2006 to live and work so I will seek out the closest Dojo when there. I'm still studying at the moment so it won't be before then. When I do get to Canada it will be under a work/living arrangement so it won't be like a holiday. If this thread is still running then I'll ask again :)

[justforkendo] - ahhh early 2002 I would have been about 6 months in. If it was at Collinswood then it would have been a Monday night (yes?) which I didn't always attend. Heh - I'm not making excuses but there was a Thursday night class over at Linden Park which was a lot better - I wish you had seen this instead - run by our 2 sempei that concentrated on (what I felt were) the right things. At that time the club was really split between angry night (Mon) and technique night (Thrs). I have received your email and will talk to you more on that rather than use up more space on this forum...

[everybody else] - thanks for your responses. Here's wishing you all good kendo.

[Kendoka]

hi guys
we dont do kendo kata in class (as far as i know) only been doing kendo for 3 weeks or so.
we do somthing called samurai jitsu ...anyone haerd of this..
done with boken
eg: ippon me
Step right foot forward*straight cut*step back*chiburi*re-sheath*bow

thanks

Mmmm sounds a little like seitei iaido kata.


RIchard

[Kendoka]

Perhaps not, but I've never heard of a kendo instructor referred to as shihan, certainly not one who is only rokudan. Samurai-jutsu is clearly a made-up term as well, so my bs detector is on alert already.

Sorry Neil, I have, regularly and from the IKF.
The sesnseis that are attending our seminar in April were all described as shihan in their bios, which were sent from the IKF.
http://www.kendoaustralia.asn.au/29akcsenseiprof.htm

Richard

[Neil Gendzwill]

Sorry Neil, I have, regularly and from the IKF.
The sesnseis that are attending our seminar in April were all described as shihan in their bios, which were sent from the IKF.
http://www.kendoaustralia.asn.au/29akcsenseiprof.htm


Interesting - those are all organizational titles, "shihan of X police", as opposed to shihan just in general like you'd find in aikido. I'd be curious to know if anybody addresses them by that title.

PS - I note they're all hanshi or kyoshi hachidan too.

[Kingofmyrrh]

It seems that shihan is the title you get when you don`t necessarily take part in everyday keiko, but are still attached to the organisation. It seems to be the most senior position, at least in kendo terms. For example, at my uni we have fukumoto shihan, sato shihan and kato shihan, and people generally call them that. kato shihan is also shihan for the imperial police, and they seem to call him sato shihan as well.

[Kendoka]

Interesting - those are all organizational titles, "shihan of X police", as opposed to shihan just in general like you'd find in aikido. I'd be curious to know if anybody addresses them by that title.

PS - I note they're all hanshi or kyoshi hachidan too.

Yes, I agree about the organisational title.

We always address them and refer to them as sensei.

[ShinobiKenjutsu]

Sounds like at least on of the fries at this McDojo was actually well salted. Well recieved, z3, you show your maturity by your responses.