Left hand/right hand mokuso and beyond

[Aurélien]

Hi everyone,
I recently asked a question to my senseis and they advised me to ask it on the forum to see what all of you think.

During his stay in New Zealand, Inoue sensei explain us one thing about mokuso: the left hand represents the student and the right hand represents Buddha, protecting us.
My question was then: Is that still true when we fight? Holding the shinai, does the right hand still represents Buddha (or the divine depending on one's beliefs)?

Please, tell me what you guys think!
Thank you,
Aurélien

[Fallen]

I would of thought the concepts with mokuso are different to actual "fighting". mokuso is more concept driven, the way we hold the shinai I think is based more on practicality. I'm just guessing and I think the questions is going to be fairly open to interpretation but I haven't heard of the way we holding the shinai being influenced by "religion"

[ben]

The left hand in kamae is your kokoro (heart or mind, take your pick). IOW the steadiness or otherwise of your left hand reveals the steadiness of your mind. The right hand is your technique.

Hachi-dan wisdom, not my own.

b

[Kenshi]

the left hand represents the student and the right hand represents Buddha, protecting us.

I think he made that up. That doesnt mean that its bad or anything - and its not a critisicm

[Kenshi]

Went to the ZNIRs all japan split-dan taikai today.... was a complete nightmare place to take pics. As a result, I didnt get anything nearly good.

I posted a single image (made up of 4 seperate images) simple because the woman in the pic is/was beautiful. Read into this what you will!!!!!

For the girls, the guy sitting behind her in the picture is quite handome... heh heh!

Anywhere, here is the Iaido-Babe (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eikenkai/1670775958/).

[Rularn]

** time out

the guy behind her in the second picture has a funny look... haha

** resume thread

[Berserker]

One of our sensei's once mentioned that the believe of mokuso started because the Japanese believe that the right side of the body is your "good, honorable" side and you left side represent everything that is "evil/wrong"...

Thus, in mokuso, the right hand rests on top of the left as a symbol that the the "good" side surpresses the "evil" side... But I can be TOTALY wrong... :smiley: (Thats just wat I herd)



But hell, what do I know...

[Kenshi]

Was there not an article on this in KW mag at some point in the past?

Just because someone is Japanese or has a high kendo grade doesnt mean they know the background of what they are talking about or - more common - they have come to have their own views on various matters and transmit their beliefs to their students. This is only a criticism if they havent done their research and are just working on assumptions. Saying that...

Its obvious that the use of mokuso has changed from what it originally was into something for use in kendo.

In its original form it seems to have arrived in kendo via buddhist practises, probably zen. Before that its use has a long history. The meaning of the hands seem to be:

陰 (IN aka YIN) - left hand
陽 (YO aka YANG) - right hand

The hands can be in both variations - with left or right being below. The usual (in kendo) is with the right being below.

In some forms of zen practise they will start with the right being on top before whatever it is they are going to do and - when they finish - do mokuso again with the right on the bottom.

After some quick research of the matter on the net it seems that MOKUSO began being formally used in kendo in the 1950s.

Based on the above, and my experience in many dojo and with many sensei, my feeling is that there is not a "right" way to do it and that its meaning can change for the dojo, the sensei, and the individual.


Went to the ZNIRs all japan split-dan taikai today....

Arg, posted this in the wrong place (apologies...)

[Lady_Kitsune]

From what I heard mokuso is just a posture of meditation to drive put all the thoughts that got nothing to do with kendo (at the begining of the class) and to absorve everything you learn (at the end of the class) About the sides and hands, probably has to do with Yin and Yang as someone here post. Cos everything in Zen, buddist and oriental philosophy in general has to do with the dicotomy of the forces.

At least, that's what I know.

[Rob W.]

I was thinking about this today while at our regional federation joint practice. Some people had left in right, some right in left, some had left toe over right in seiza, some the opposite. Without passing judgment on right ways and wrong ways is there an overwhelmingly more popular way to do it?

Have fun taking that last sentence out of context.

[Masahiro]

I was always taught left on top of right, no?

[Kenshi]

I was always taught left on top of right, no?

This is the official line and the one you see 90%+ of people using.

The next question could be: "whats the correct way to line up my kote?" .... which - of course - also has no correct method.

Both mokuso and kote-lining up are mixed at my adult dojo here in Osaka.

[Aurélien]

Thanks for your insights.

Kenshi--> I know what you mean by interpretation of things. The particular sensei, Inoue sensei, is Hanshi-8th Dan and national treasure of Japan for the Kata practice, he wrote several books and has been recognised has a reference into Katas and the spirituality attached to it. Therefore when he told us about his views on Mokuso, I took it (as one beginner would) easily for granted. And I tried to push the thinking more and more as I always do. I believe that there is a track that brings you more and more answers for kendo and for life. I try as many tracks as I can to find mine.
I liked his explanations about Mokuso, another 'technique' during Mokuso would be to visualise our parents and ask for forgiveness for all the things we have done wrong and they don't know about.
Well, I am afraid that I would need an half day Mokuso to do so, risking to not being able to stand up when finished. But I do like the concept and I do think that this is a good preparation to a shiai. Being satisfied with those teachings, I tried to push the thinking and obviously, all of your answers make me think that I should try another one.
However, I am trying to get that answer from Inoue sensei somehow (which is much harder now that he is not in New Zealand anymore) and when it happens, i'll be able to set my mind on what I'd like to believe.

Thanks again! (would like to write in japanese but don't want to hurt anyone)
Aurélien

[ben]

I was thinking about this today while at our regional federation joint practice. Some people had left in right, some right in left, some had left toe over right in seiza, some the opposite. Without passing judgment on right ways and wrong ways is there an overwhelmingly more popular way to do it?

Hokkaijoin mudra (http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/how_to_do_zazen.html) is left hand on top of right hand. Seiza is right toe over left, otherwise you cannot stand up using your right leg first in the sa-za-u-ki manner.

b

[ben]

The particular sensei, Inoue sensei, is Hanshi-8th Dan and national treasure of Japan for the Kata practice... Aurélien
That'd be Shiggy I presume? :D

Funny that parents thing. Just been reading the new translation of the TSKSR manual and Otake sensei has the same thing in the appendix. I'm getting it from all sides at the moment...

b

[ZealUK]

The mudra a lot of people do in mokuso is directly from buddhism. Its called jou-in (定印) or zenjou-in (禅定印). Most buddhist images of Shaka sama show the hands right over left, but in Zen images it is often reversed showing left over right. This is also the way zazen in practiced in Soto Zen temples (not sure about Rinzai).

Ah Ben beat me to it. It's also called Hokkajou-in as he noted.

[JCM]

In its original form it seems to have arrived in kendo via buddhist practises, probably zen. Before that its use has a long history. The meaning of the hands seem to be:

陰 (IN aka YIN) - left hand
陽 (YO aka YANG) - right hand

etc...

Seems accurate, I have heard the same from a Chinese Kendoka in our Dojo, we were staying at a B&B once attending a competition and I saw him doing some meditation, so I asked him to tell me more about it since he seems to do lot of it. He explained the ying-yang thing when placing your hands in meditation, and if I remember well he made the allusion to one of the hands over the other, to keep the negative side in check. In the particular position he was showing me you crossed your legs opposite to the way your hands were, I guess a sort of balancing thing

I recall the book "The Heart of Kendo" talking about this too on the transcripts from Darrell Craig with his Sensei.

IMHO you can make mokuso a relaxation exercise or a religious affair, you can make it a deep breathing exercise for relaxation or more of a buddhist meditation, is personal. If your Sensei is Japanese then there is a chance this is part of his religious beliefs, so he is not wrong, but you can interpret that on your own way too (non-religious). The reason and history behind it is probably buddhist in any case.

[Alex]

I think he made that up. That doesnt mean that its bad or anything - and its not a critisicm

Didn't make it up at all. From Buddhism. There is a relatively extensive explanation in Inoue Sensei's kata book from KW.

[bullet08]

i thought it was left over right so you don't involuntarily reach out for the pint during the mokuso..

pete

[Kenshi]

Didn't make it up at all. From Buddhism. There is a relatively extensive explanation in Inoue Sensei's kata book from KW.

Sorry, I should have said "its his own interpretation."

Since you are here, I did some web-research and found a place that mentioned that use of mokuso became official in gendai kendo only in the 50's (when the ZNKR was formed maybe?).... is that accurate as far as you know?

[Rob W.]

I was always taught left on top of right, no?

Hmmm, that is also the way I have been taught... what a coincidence ;).


Hokkaijoin mudra (http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/how_to_do_zazen.html) is left hand on top of right hand. Seiza is right toe over left, otherwise you cannot stand up using your right leg first in the sa-za-u-ki manner.

This is the way it's done at my dojo, but I've noticed the opposite at joint practices and taikai. Thanks for the link, it's an interesting resource.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

Asked a friend today... he said that in kendo the left hand represents the kokoro, so you put it over your right hand which represents your more basic and uncontrolled side, it´s understood that the right hand is the blade hand too... so your kokoro is put over it in a representative way of what is a kendo ideal I think... actually he explained many weird things, but I´m just very tired now as to write them all, it made sense to me. Maybe someone knows more about this.

[Hanmi]

on Mokuso, from the Cleveland Kendo Association Website,

http://www.clevelandkendo.com/about/mokuso.html