Tetsuzan Kuroda [Archive] - Kendo World Forums

Kent Enfield

23-10-2007, 09:05 AM

his speed is absolutely phenomenal. Imagine moving that quickly in a kendo context.Except that if you watch any one part of his body, he actually doesn't move that fast. His speed comes from having no telegraphing and from not chaining the motion of separate body parts--everything moves at once in the way it needs to go.

Neil Gendzwill

23-10-2007, 11:44 AM

Imagine moving that quickly in a kendo context.What Kent said. There's plenty of people moving faster than that in a kendo context.

hl1978

23-10-2007, 12:30 PM

What Kent said. There's plenty of people moving faster than that in a kendo context.

got any video or can you point to any? I think it would be very educational to see!

Masahiro

23-10-2007, 12:39 PM

just look up any of the AJKC videos, they are super fast. with atleast 5 kg of equipment on them not to mention.

Neil Gendzwill

23-10-2007, 02:55 PM

Tozai Taikai highlights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwxQpGISlAs) - actually, these guys are a little older and slower.
Miyazaki highlight reel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Dk_QtWDMI) - he's fairly quick... I had to rewind that a couple of times to see the kote at around 1:10, youtube resolution is barely enough to capture him.

Kenshi

23-10-2007, 03:02 PM

Kent Enfield

23-10-2007, 03:32 PM

I just want to clear up the point I was trying to make. It wasn't that Kuroda Tetsuzan isn't effectively fast. It's that he achieves that through efficient and correct movement, rather than through "moving faster". And now before someone misinterprets that, I don't mean to say that Miyazaki and the like don't have efficient and correct movement. But it does seem to be of a different type.

ben

23-10-2007, 03:53 PM

I think hes got a great name.
I've read him in several interviews apologise for his name, that it sounds like an affectation but it really is the name he was given.

He does certainly have some interesting ways of moving. There is a clip of him from Aiki news on Youtube doing some throws that are really fast. (Hope I'm not referring to one that was already mentioned - Youtube blocked at work)

b

hl1978

23-10-2007, 09:30 PM

I think hes got a great name. Him and Kono are doing stuff so much differently than the rest of the guys out there. At least Kuroda isnt as commercially orientated as Kono is.

If you are interested in him and his ilk, you should be checking out the magazine Hiden.

Yep Im familiar with Hiden, one of my instructors was in the august issue and I met one of the editors during my last trip to Japan. He checked out the Aunkai one of the nights I happened to be there,

Kenshi

23-10-2007, 11:40 PM

Im not too much into the neo-koryu scene (im gonna call it that whether or not its new or not), but it definetly seems to be a burgeoning market... just by looking at how many books are coming out. Most of it seems to be due to Kono and his success. That mans prolific as well!! His son (21 I think) even has a book out. Neo-koryu for playing with kids or something.

At any rate, Kuroda looks handy with a bokuto.

Ignatz

24-10-2007, 05:02 AM

. . .I had to rewind that a couple of times to see the kote at around 1:10, youtube resolution is barely enough to capture him.

I rewound to look at his left foot. At the Texas tournament a couple weeks ago, I had maybe three or four kote where I got one flag (almost always the one closest to the strike) but nothing from the other two shimpan.

On one, in the semi finals, I asked five sensei why I only got one flag and got five answers. However, after some discussion the concensus was that my left foot didn't move foreward. (I got some good tips on how to ensure that it does, having been told to do it but not how by several sensei)

In any event, back to the video. Looks almost like he is doing fumikomi with his left foot. And I see no forward motion whatsoever.

Comments? Observations?

Neil Gendzwill

24-10-2007, 05:07 AM

I don't have access to the video at work. I can say that generally speaking, after the cut you have to be moving in some direction, not necessarily forward. If you just stepped onto your right foot and stood there with your left foot stuck, that might be the reason that the shimpan didn't take that one.

ZealUK

24-10-2007, 06:39 AM

Im not too much into the neo-koryu scene (im gonna call it that whether or not its new or not), but it definetly seems to be a burgeoning market... just by looking at how many books are coming out.

I know what you mean about prolific. Kono appears all over the place selling his brand of budo. He was on NHK not long back doing some kind of budo exercise programme or something. Kuroda Tetsuzan seems to make regular contributions to Hiden, never read any of them in detail, I never buy the thing. It certainly is a different approach to 'koryu'.

I agree though George, he does look pretty handy.

hl1978

24-10-2007, 06:44 AM

I know what you mean about prolific. Kono appears all over the place selling his brand of budo. He was on NHK not long back doing some kind of budo exercise programme or something. Kuroda Tetsuzan seems to make regular contributions to Hiden, never read any of them in detail, I never buy the thing. It certainly is a different approach to 'koryu'.

I agree though George, he does look pretty handy.

From what I have seen of Hiden, it doesn't seem like a mag for people who really do MA, more like those who are interested in it.

I liken it to something more along "Car and Driver" versus "Grassroots Motorsport", as in a magazine for those interested in cars, versus one for those who actually build and race them.

Kingofmyrrh

24-10-2007, 07:46 AM

I rewound to look at his left foot. At the Texas tournament a couple weeks ago, I had maybe three or four kote where I got one flag (almost always the one closest to the strike) but nothing from the other two shimpan.

On one, in the semi finals, I asked five sensei why I only got one flag and got five answers. However, after some discussion the concensus was that my left foot didn't move foreward. (I got some good tips on how to ensure that it does, having been told to do it but not how by several sensei)

In any event, back to the video. Looks almost like he is doing fumikomi with his left foot. And I see no forward motion whatsoever.

Comments? Observations?

Yer bastard. That was what I was going to say.

He is very fast at what he does, and he does look very coordinated and pretty cool. But I don't think what he does is much use in a kendo context. Why? Because he doesn't actually move forwards, backwards, left or right (the first two being far more important in kendo) to any great extent at all. It's all movement on the spot. Whereas if you look at the Miyazaki video you can see he has ultra-fast handwork like Kuroda but also incredible acceleration of the whole body. I guess what I mean is that Kuroda might well move with the whole body, but unlike Miyazaki he does not move the whole body. He just stays in the same place. So it may well be nice for what it is but I don't think it would be very useful for kendo.

hl1978

24-10-2007, 08:10 AM

Yer bastard. That was what I was going to say.

He is very fast at what he does, and he does look very coordinated and pretty cool. But I don't think what he does is much use in a kendo context. Why? Because he doesn't actually move forwards, backwards, left or right (the first two being far more important in kendo) to any great extent at all. It's all movement on the spot. Whereas if you look at the Miyazaki video you can see he has ultra-fast handwork like Kuroda but also incredible acceleration of the whole body. I guess what I mean is that Kuroda might well move with the whole body, but unlike Miyazaki he does not move the whole body. He just stays in the same place. So it may well be nice for what it is but I don't think it would be very useful for kendo.

in the MBKA clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InlQtTMK5Ys

around ~48 seconds he does dou, going forwards and to the side, but it is partially obscured so you really can't see his footwork (they show it again later in slower motion and lessobscured). Plus the way he does dou doesnt really correspond to the kendo way (it looks more like he drops it to the side and runs through after his men cut is blocked), that being said he moves to the oblique and forwards extraorinarly quickly.

Since we can't see him moving in a kendo manner, its like comparing apples to oranges, but given how fast he moves on that oblique, I would imagine he could preform kendo styled dou just as fast.

Masahiro

24-10-2007, 08:41 AM

Kingofmyrrh

24-10-2007, 08:42 AM

in the MBKA clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InlQtTMK5Ys

around ~48 seconds he does dou, going forwards and to the side, but it is partially obscured so you really can't see his footwork (they show it again later in slower motion and lessobscured). Plus the way he does dou doesnt really correspond to the kendo way (it looks more like he drops it to the side and runs through after his men cut is blocked), that being said he moves to the oblique and forwards extraorinarly quickly.

Since we can't see him moving in a kendo manner, its like comparing apples to oranges, but given how fast he moves on that oblique, I would imagine he could preform kendo styled dou just as fast.

Unfortunately I can't see this at work, but I will check it out a bit later.

ben

24-10-2007, 12:14 PM

Disclaimer: i like Kuroda. ..

So if he were to get a real sword (one that he'd actually use in combat, and not just for "kata", or demonstration) Would i be correct when i say he'd need a tsuka about 2 feet long?

i like his style, and his "unorthodox", and expertise at what he does. but, it seems to me that his style of "swordmanship" maybe better suited for a short staff. << i forgot what the technical term is.

Jo?

There is another clip (again apologies if it is linked here) where he demonstrates "Tamiya Ryu" iai jutsu (different kanji to the better known school of the same name). He uses a fairly 'normal' length tsuka in that demo AFAIR. So he's not as bad as some aiki-ken exponents who hold the sword with their right hand somewhere near the monouchi...

b

Upyu

24-10-2007, 12:25 PM

I guess what I mean is that Kuroda might well move with the whole body, but unlike Miyazaki he does not move the whole body. He just stays in the same place. So it may well be nice for what it is but I don't think it would be very useful for kendo.

I think one thing that needs to be taken into account is that (and I doubt many would know this unless they read his stuff in Japanese) he constantly stresses that what you see in Embu are training Kata. IE, if it were for real, he wouldn't move like that. They're forms designed to train the body, not actual techniques persay. Though he can still show how you can get the drop on someone etc.

Honestly, I think the whole moving in place thing is pretty important. The "ichimonji no koshi" kata he shows in the mind body/kickass BCC show demonstrates some key things you need if you really want to move with the "koshi/hara".

Anyways, I'd save the whole "his stuff would be effective for this but not for that" speculation till after you'd crossed hands (or in this case swords) :)

I've got no doubt in my mind Kuroda could easily use the same body mechanics for Sport Kendo. Personally I don't think you'd have time enough to react, no matter how fast you are ;)

Kingofmyrrh

24-10-2007, 12:58 PM

I've got no doubt in my mind Kuroda could easily use the same body mechanics for Sport Kendo. Personally I don't think you'd have time enough to react, no matter how fast you are ;)

As ever, we come across the same problem: your opinion is essentially worthless to me, I only really go for facts (like watching Miyazaki in the video). I'm not saying that he couldn't step forward quickly, just that I have no particular reason to believe that he can. As for what he can do outside of kendo-related movements, couldn't really care less as I do kendo and am very happy with it. I haven't checked out anything he's written because Hiden is seen as a bit of a "fringe" (to put it nicely) publication by most of the people I know (it may be good for something, but I've yet to find a serious kendoka who thinks it's good for kendo).

Anyway, I will definitely check the video again before I come to any premature conclusions.

Kenshi

24-10-2007, 01:43 PM

Too much Chinese MA in Hiden for my interests. Sometimes you get the odd fit Yoga-chick in various postures... which almost makes it worthwhile.

Heres the mag (http://www.bab.co.jp/hiden/) (lo and behold, Kuroda is on the cover of this months... 日本刀の実力 no less!)

Kingofmyrrh

25-10-2007, 07:40 AM

I checked out the video as promised. It's actually one that I had seen before, but had previously mainly concentrated on the hideous narrator.

I won't deny that he looks fast and very competent, and that the do cut is really the same in idea (if slightly different in execution) as a standard kendo technique. However I don't think his forward movement satisfies the conditions for kendo movement, because his initial instantaneous acceleration from a standing start is not at all fast from a kendo perspective. His movement after that is, but in the technique mentioned he effectively uses this speed after duping the opponent into a block. With kendo the objective is to generate explosive zero->full speed acceleration so that there is no initial block. If you can't see this then I'm afraid I'm going to have to turn your usual "you can only know it by feeling it" mantra against you and tell you that you need to get some dojo time in. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong in the slightest with what's in the video, but I am saying that there's still no convincing evidence that I have seen that these guys have movement useful in kendo (they may have, but it hasn't appeared in any of the footage submitted).

Upyu

25-10-2007, 11:15 AM

With kendo the objective is to generate explosive zero->full speed acceleration so that there is no initial block. If you can't see this then I'm afraid I'm going to have to turn your usual "you can only know it by feeling it" mantra against you and tell you that you need to get some dojo time in.

Actually I've had more than several years of "dojo time" in, felt what some of the upper rankers feel like and honestly, I'd have to say I disagree. It's pretty obvious from your posts that you haven't run into someone with an advanced degree of these skills. :ko:

Besides which, any of the "better" but "older" (as in 70+) Kendoka that I knew from Kenzen in NYC tended to not be so "explosive." More like when you're in front of them it seems like they're wicked fast, but if you were to step back you'd see they weren't moving so fast at all. At the time I chalked it up to timing and preciseness etc...
These days I'm pretty sure that something else was going on.

If explosiveness was the key, then these bodymechanics would be no different from simple pylometrics ;)

Kingofmyrrh

25-10-2007, 11:36 AM

Actually I've had more than several years of "dojo time" in, felt what some of the upper rankers feel like and honestly, I'd have to say I disagree. It's pretty obvious from your posts that you haven't run into someone with an advanced degree of these skills. :ko:

Besides which, any of the "better" but "older" (as in 70+) Kendoka that I knew from Kenzen in NYC tended to not be so "explosive." More like when you're in front of them it seems like they're wicked fast, but if you were to step back you'd see they weren't moving so fast at all. At the time I chalked it up to timing and preciseness etc...
These days I'm pretty sure that something else was going on.

If explosiveness was the key, then these bodymechanics would be no different from simple pylometrics ;)

I've fenced with more All-Japan champions than I can be bothered to count right now, and none of them moved like that... if they don't have these "advanced skills" then that's evidence enough for me that they are completely unnecessary. I think we're just going to have to agree to give up on trying to convince the other because clearly neither of us have advanced a single step towards that goal.

ben

26-10-2007, 01:05 AM

I think you both need to just chill. King, you're third dan and should admit that the fact that you've fenced with "more All-Japan champions than you care to remember" shouldn't blind you from the fact that there still may be more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy. If you're not careful I might just re-open the "Namba walking" can of worms just to torment you... :D

Upyu (a shocking username IMHO), I'm hoping you are in your 40s at least, because otherwise you'de be better served emulating King's All Japan champions. Any authority worth mentioning in both kendo and koryu stresses the importance of developing vigour in one's youth. It is a terrible shortcoming of gaijin kendoka who came late to kendo (myself included) that we often try and imitate our older, slower role models, without the basis of hard training they engaged in when they were young.

b

Kingofmyrrh

26-10-2007, 11:01 AM

hl1978

26-10-2007, 04:05 PM

You're right. And there are certainly plenty of things I don't understand in this world. Whether they are of any use to people who do kendo, however, is a different matter. Anyway, the inability of these guys to produce anything but hearsay has gotten a bit old. Back to the snowjapan.com forums for me!

I dunno, I'm not sure that whatever training methodology that Kuroda uses to move would not be advantageous in kendo if it produces high speed with no telegraphing.

As for not being able to produce anything but heresay, come on, seriously. You live in japan. Assuming one had the interest (and you have clearly indicated in the past you don't), there are all sorts of interesting people you can meet, like Kuroda, and see if you apply their training methods to your own practice, some on your own backyard :)

In fact, someone else on this thread has done exactly that (not Upyu or myself).

JSchmidt

26-10-2007, 06:32 PM

As for not being able to produce anything but heresay, come on, seriously. You live in japan. Assuming one had the interest (and you have clearly indicated in the past you don't), there are all sorts of interesting people you can meet, like Kuroda, and see if you apply their training methods to your own practice, some on your own backyard :)

I only live in London, but I could spend the rest of my life, chasing around 'new' (and old) secret training methods, that will allegedly make you so much better that you would be stupid not to try it.
If you want to become better at kendo, practice more kendo. Yes, some forms of cross training can be beneficial to your kendo, but kendo is pretty much aiming to achieve exactly what Kuruda is doing. Using subtle body movements to create an opening and then (for the younger generation), with explosive power, exploit that opening.
The older gents you talk about, that will appear to move fast, they are doing a couple of things A). They read you like an open book, because they 50+ years of experience in doing so. B) They use that experience to make you attack what they want you to attack.
As such, there's nothing special about it. Just a lot of keiko...so maybe instead of chasing after these shortcuts, you should just hit the dojo some more?.