Painful seiza

[Ratgax]

Hi everyone.

I'm a newcomer to Kendo, just 2 weeks on training, and I'm having a bad time on seiza. (I'm 32 y.o. and a little overweight)

I cant get my feet on floor level, so my knees are not well grounded and I throw all my weight over the bone (4 or 5 cm under my knee), [sorry, my english is really bad and I dont know how to explain myself in a more comprehensible way).

So it hurts BAD. Do you have my fellow kendokas some advice to do the seiza?

Thanks in advance.

[kawa]

I feel your pain!! Last night 40 minus of Seiza listening to Sensei’s speech and that is after 30 minus of non-stop Keiko. After 20 minus both legs felt asleep follow by 15 minus of pure pain, then absolutely lost all feeling of toes and feets turn ice cold!.
But other Japanese kendo-ka doesn’t seem to be bothered by it. What’s the secret?

Size here doesn't matter...lol (5'11", 170lbs) kendo age: 12 years old

[LNGUYEN]

But other Japanese kendo-ka doesn’t seem to be bothered by it. What’s the secret?
The secret is Japanese doing seiza everydays since they were born and we, not Japanese don't do it everyday. They sit like that all the time. If some one don't walk at all and suddenly you tell him to walk, it is extremely painful for him too.

[Ratgax]

The secret is Japanese doing seiza everydays since they were born and we, not Japanese don't do it everyday.

OK, thanks for the info.
Anyways there must be some tricks for us (gaijin) to minimice pain, I just can't born again to train from my very childhood. Also I see my sempais are doing pretty nice (perhaps they're not japanese, but they seem right to me), I learn from a japanese, but I know I will never be one of them.

But I must reach some level in my seiza, no? How did you train it?

[tyler]

The secret is Japanese doing seiza everydays since they were born and we, not Japanese don't do it everyday.

OK, thanks for the info.
Anyways there must be some tricks for us (gaijin) to minimice pain, I just can't born again to train from my very childhood. Also I see my sempais are doing pretty nice (perhaps they're not japanese, but they seem right to me), I learn from a japanese, but I know I will never be one of them.

But I must reach some level in my seiza, no? How did you train it?

I also had problems sitting in seiza until I started practicing iaido, which made it hurt even more for a while but then it got much better. For me, I wasn't taught the fine points of seiza in kendo, it was more 'sit on your legs like this'. In iaido, i've learned about posture, how to be ready to move from it, how to get down into it and up out of it (though my legs still go numb about about 20 minutes of it too).

I don't know if it will help, but here's some (probably obvious) pointers to remember: don't cross one foot over another and don't slouch. If you separate your feet and make them a basket for your butt, you slouch and the whole posture gets thrown off. In order to be ready to move up from seiza (as in iai), you can't be resting your weight on your feet. Instead, keep your heels together and flex your thighs slightly. Also, curl your hips forward to as to make your stomach bigger (which also helps abdominal breathing), and think of your head as being attached to the ceiling with a string, so you can't slouch even an inch. When you sit down and stand up from seiza, move your hips first, drive up with your hips instead of your upper body.

You'll probably find that its really taxing on your legs to stay so upright, they will get tired, but in the long run it will make your seiza very strong and over time you'll become accustomed to sitting like that.

If anyone else has pointers i sure would like to know.

Tyler

[Neil Gendzwill]

For most people it's a matter of finding out how to arrange your feet and getting used to the posture. I always suggest watching TV on your living room carpet in seiza. If you can work up to 15 or 20 minutes on carpet, the 5 minutes or so on hardwood you need for kendo class should be OK.

[pamiro]

it s also related to the floor that youre on, but i guess you cant make them put pillows on your dojo :) ... i have been practicing aikido for 7 years and the day i sat seiza on the wooden parquet of my kendo jodo i was a bit suprised! it made me realize that i was sitting seiza!
but the key is finding the centered, well balanced posture which doesnt direct your weight on one point ...
needs time ...

[Miravil]

Finally someone is talking about seiza. I used to suffer bruises on the knees by just doing seiza. Not that I drop on my knees, is just the pressure of my body weight that has cause these.

Then I forced myself to do seiza everytime I watch TV. It does improve, but I still suffer the numbness and back-ache whenever there is lecture from the sensei.

I do agree that it is about getting used to it that the Japanese are able to do seiza for hours... (wonder how long would it take for me???) :lick:

[etherknot]

A long time ago I used to be able to sit in seiza for quite some time.
Then I stopped.
Then I started Kendo and it was as you said, not very comfy.
I agree, if you can spend a little bit of time sitting in seiza it'll become less and less annoying. If you have some kind of game console hooked up to your television that works too. Especially if you are playing Final Fantasy all night long. Ahem. Anyways...

The other day though I discovered the joys of sitting in seiza in sune-ate. Ahh! It's like I could sit in seiza for waaaaay longer. :)

[chidokan]

seiza is very comfortable. try tate hiza instead. :eek: That always seems to be a nightmare for beginners....
Get used to seiza by using a thick mat/carpet, as this lets the joints stretch without bruising the upper foot too much, and if you start to feel uncomfortable rock from one leg to the other, or rest your feet on your hands as well. This gets the blood circulating again. Also folow the advice above on good posture.

Tim Hamilton

[tanueirin]

I get a fresh bruise on my left knee after each class, but I'm not sure if this is from seiza. Posture is the definitely the key, and I find that flexing my calves and wiggling my toes helps keep the blood circulating.
Remember, if it doesn't kill you ... etc. etc. :p

[xvikingx]

The secret is Japanese doing seiza everydays since they were born and we, not Japanese don't do it everyday.

OK, thanks for the info.
Anyways there must be some tricks for us (gaijin) to minimice pain, I just can't born again to train from my very childhood. Also I see my sempais are doing pretty nice (perhaps they're not japanese, but they seem right to me), I learn from a japanese, but I know I will never be one of them.

But I must reach some level in my seiza, no? How did you train it?

There is no secret, the Japanese feel pain like the rest of us. They just don't complain about it, thats all. Neil is right just try shifting your feet around untill you find something somewhat pleasing. If seiza bothers you don't learn sadou :cry: Now that is painful seiza!

[kendokamax]

seiza hurts....

try to sit in seiza with your arms up in the air.

[Tachi]

Seiza is hard for me too, especially after knee surgery, but I'm getting better. I found that placing a rolled up towel between my heels and rear end eases the pressure and pain. Now I am slowly working my way to removing the towel, by making this "cushion" a little smaller as time goes by. So far it's working!

[nollaig]

I only sit in seiza for long enough to put on bogu.
My Sensei is very firm on this
I've had a knee op so apart from pain, serious damage is possible

if you can't do it for medical reasons then don't

[Rularn]

The best way to be able to sit in seiza is to practice. I sit in seiza as I soak in the shower :P (maybe a little too much information there).

But I mean, if you have a pool or something readily available, that would help by not applying your full weight on your knees. And then you could work with that little by little until you can do it for a long time or whatever.

[Miravil]

Rularn, no heart feelings. But I think I preffer to do seiza in front of the TV then while having shower. Maybe with the help of a cushion.... :cool2:

[LNGUYEN]

The best way to be able to sit in seiza is to practice. I sit in seiza as I soak in the shower :P (maybe a little too much information there).

But I mean, if you have a pool or something readily available, that would help by not applying your full weight on your knees. And then you could work with that little by little until you can do it for a long time or whatever.
It is even better if you seiza in the shower with full bogu on until the bogu totally soaked. Ofcourse, the bogu has to be in the $3000 ball park, otherwise won't work. :laugh:

[Eldritch Knight]

Speaking from experience - the Japanese are, in general, pretty good at seiza. However, they are not much better than us. The average high schooler in Japan (at my school and most of them in the prefecture, anyway) could hold it for about 20 min. After that, it was all willpower.

When I started kendo, I could hold it for maybe 5 minutes. About 6 months after I started (i had practice for 4 hours everyday except Sunday) I could do it for 20 min before it falling asleep, and up to 30 min if I had to.

Shortly after that, I started learning sadou (tea ceremony) where, during the more formal ceremonies, you have to sit in seiza for *brace yourselves* 2-4 hours in a row. My sensei (an 84 year old WWII vet) had no problem, but I had to sit in yokoza (with your feet out to the side) to rest after each hour. My legs still fall asleep at 20min (like clockwork), but I can hold it for up to 50 min without having difficulty standing up. After that, the pain starts.

Remember, seiza is supposed to be graceful and flowing, so maintain a posture that has dignity and seems respectful. That means sitting up straight and firm (neither slouching nor proud - neither are desireable qualities in ancient japan), keeping your big toes crossed (this elevates one foot and aids circulation), and keeping your knees slightly apart. The main problem that Westerners have with seiza are with having leg muscles that aren't used to having blood cut off in that way. Just practice, practice, practice.

Also, a little tip that Japanese use to bring circulation back to sleeping legs: massage your toes. It really works, but beware; you'll get feeling in your legs, but they'll start burning right after.

[Paul Kerr]

Also a point worth noting: if you've been sitting in seiza so long that your feet and lower legs have gone to sleep, when you stand, make sure to step BACKWARDS at first to avoid jamming/cracking your toes and until some feeling returns. I train also in aikido and on the softer surface this I've seen a few people jam their toes nastily by stepping forward, not being able to feel where their foot is going.

[Fantasia]

It's very similar to teenagers (especially the girls) who stand with one hip jutted out about a foot and a half to one side. To them it's perfectly comfortable because it's how they've been standing for years and they can stand that way for hours. But ask them to stand up straight (I'm a choir teacher, big pet peeve) and they say it hurts them after 2 minutes.

[ALI G]

I feel your pain!! Last night 40 minus of Seiza listening to Sensei’s speech and that is after 30 minus of non-stop Keiko. After 20 minus both legs felt asleep follow by 15 minus of pure pain, then absolutely lost all feeling of toes and feets turn ice cold!.
But other Japanese kendo-ka doesn’t seem to be bothered by it. What’s the secret?

Da Secret iz called sucking it up .................

[Shiro]

or buy kneepads, no one sees it under the hakama anyway ;)