Jukendo

[Rincewind(-.-)']

Here are two videos I recorded during the preparations for enbu at Nippon Budokan in Poland. Hope You'll enjoy them :)

Here they practice waza (or so I think):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9A3xeOfegxo

And here's a short shiai:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4v0QEwZmiIU

[Inner_Silence]

finally! the jukendo mistery solved...

[ShinKenshi]

I've seen some footage of a high school jukendo tournament and have been looking for more clips since. Thanks for the links! Jukendoka have a lot of power behind their thrusts as my first instructor related to me through his direct experience. He took a hit from one of them and got knocked back several feet and he's quite a big guy too. Thanks again!!!:D

[nikozamo]

first jukendo video ever.... nice yo see that... (but i dont like jukendo hahahah :D)

[KO1598]

Hmm isn't Jukendo bayonet fighting, I may have seen wrong but it seemed like they were using wooden replicas of a rifle, shouldnt there be a wooden bayonet as well?

[Rincewind(-.-)']

Here's a short kata:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hRsWvrohJJk

[Berserker]

For those interested, heres a little bit of backgroung reading... Not much, but should give an idea of what it's all about... I didn't even now about it until these vid were posted! Thanx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jukendo

[ShinKenshi]

It seems that jukendo also uses the kodachi to represent the bayonet in hand-to-hand combat (http://www.jukendo.info/renmei16.htm). My Japanese is rather rusty at the moment so I used babelfish to translate the page (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr) and it appears that they only wear the right kote and mainly use thrusts much the same way they would with the mokujo (wooden rifle) as well as men strikes. Would be really interesting to see vids of this kind of shiai.

[Yonshakujo]

Hmm isn't Jukendo bayonet fighting, I may have seen wrong but it seemed like they were using wooden replicas of a rifle, shouldnt there be a wooden bayonet as well?

There is a wooden bayonet, but it's mounted on the rifle.

The overall length of the 'jukendo' piece is an early era Japanese military rifle with a sword bayonet attached. It's made in a single piece because if you tried to attach a separate wooden bayonet the piece would not be strong, and the impacts are quite high. and it's quite long by modern military rifle standards.


It seems that jukendo also uses the kodachi to represent the bayonet in hand-to-hand combat.

Yes. The kodachi simulates the bare sword-bayonet, what is called the 'dismounted bayonet'.



Cheers

[Kenshi]

Jukendo.... whenever I see pictures of some kid practising this I cringe. Sorry, but its not Japanese, not traditional, and almost definetly not an art rooted in anything positive.

[ScottUK]

I like budo of any type, but I agree with Kenshi on this. We shouldn't differenciate between 16thC and 20thC warfare, but there is something about the budo arts rooted in modern killing methods that just doesn't blow my skirt up...

[JoDuncan]

Morihei Ueshiba, O-Sensei, was a practitioner of jukendo (among other things) the principals behind it are used in many of the movements in aikido today. I find it hard to "see" where the yari / jo stop and the juken begin though but you get a better feel for some of the moves by imagining you are thrusting a bayonet into a bag rather than a poke in the sky.
...Where's Mike when you need him?

Of course when Ueshiba Sensei did it, he was dressed up like a soldier!

I find this a bit silly though; why are they dressed up like kendoka? Don't mean to knock whatever floats your boat but i don't get it, the jodo / yari guys and gals don't do it, do they?? Confused!

Thanks for the vids, never seen anything like it! Now that i've seen it, not something i'd be interested in.

[Fukuryu]

...
I find this a bit silly though; why are they dressed up like kendoka? Don't mean to knock whatever floats your boat but i don't get it, the jodo / yari guys and gals don't do it, do they?? Confused!
...

About the kendo bogu, I think that if you have an already well developed protection for a contact budo, why not use it? And it is not exactly the same, look at this photo (http://www.bogubag.com/Bogu/Jukendo/J01_L.jpg) and you´ll spot the diferences.
Regarding the yari guys and gals, as per this article (http://www.koryu.com/library/harmstrong1.html) on Koryu.com, the same bogu is used for contact work within Owari Kan Ryu sojutsu curriculum.
And finally, Scott and Kenshi, do your feelings extend to such disciplines as Toyama Ryu and Nakamura Ryu, which, from my very, very limited knowledge, also come from 20th Century Japanese military experience? I ask out of sincere interest, far from my intention to open a flame war or anything like that; ignore this question if you feel nothing positive can come out of it.

[KO1598]

How is jukendo rooted in anything more negative than kendo? kendo used to be used to kill people as well. Just because swords haven't been used for a couple centuries doesn't mean they weren't intended to kill people. As for jukendo not being japanese wut do u mean? that its bayonet fighting taken from european manuals or wut? i personally think they shouldn't be dressed in hakama and bogu when training in it because trainess most definitely did not wear a hakama when actually using it. they should be wearing boots and pants and some heavy padding on the chest and steel head mask.

[Kenshi]

Jukendo is rooted in French bayonet fighting.

Toyama-ryu/Nakamura-ryu are a bit dubious due to their actually testing their stuff out in Manchuria. Id love to be able to research into war-criminals/crimes and their budo connections.

Kendo is faaaaaaaaaaaar removed from the reality of sword fighting and has evolved into something quite different. Its not even about "swords" anymore. Jukendo is stabbing an opponent with a bayonet on the end of your rifle. Its very clear to see and doesnt require any stretch of the imagination. It might be last resort, but at least some modern armies still utilise them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fass90-bayonette-p1000786.jpg). And they teach this to kids.

[Yonshakujo]

Jukendo is rooted in French bayonet fighting.

Partly so, yes. Other moves from Prussia and traditional Japanese spear schools.


Toyama-ryu/Nakamura-ryu are a bit dubious due to their actually testing their stuff out in Manchuria. Id love to be able to research into war-criminals/crimes and their budo connections.



It's been done. More interesting is Ueshiba's teaching the Imperial military and his actions in Manchuria.

And statistically probably more guys from Eishin ryu or such beheaded folks than Toyama ryu.


Kendo is faaaaaaaaaaaar removed from the reality of sword fighting and has evolved into something quite different. Its not even about "swords" anymore. Jukendo is stabbing an opponent with a bayonet on the end of your rifle. Its very clear to see and doesnt require any stretch of the imagination. It might be last resort, but at least some modern armies still utilise them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fass90-bayonette-p1000786.jpg). And they teach this to kids.

Trust me, jukendo is almost as, arguably more, far removed from real bayonet fighting as kendo is from real swordsmanship.

As with modern naginata, and any number of other budo, they are in fact martial arts, not flower arranging. A 'do' slash by some cutie in naginata is at its fundamental base practicing a move meant to disembowel their opponent. :eek: Period.

But it if makes anyone feel better, since jukendo is a pretty small budo, it is really not taught to that many kids, but they like to showcase them in pix.

Cheers,

[KO1598]

they used to teach kendo to kids centuries ago kenshi so.......i mean the only problem i think you have with it is that the bayonet was and still is, (although a minor weapon) still used in modern warfare

[Kenshi]

It's been done.

If you have any sources to extensive studies (in English pref) please share.

[Yonshakujo]

Jukendo.... whenever I see pictures of some kid practising this I cringe. Sorry, but its not Japanese, not traditional, and almost definetly not an art rooted in anything positive.

Actually, if you mean tradition in the sense of an art or craft handed down through the ages, jukendo is substantially older than most gendai budo including aikido, karate, Shorinji kempo, gendai naginata, even modern sumo I think, etc. So, I guess it depends on your point of view.

But it is certainly, uniquely a Japanese budo, and is officially recognized as such by the Japanese government.

And, in the face of such expertise, I reckon my opinion doesn't count for much.

I find this a bit silly though; why are they dressed up like kendoka? Don't mean to knock whatever floats your boat but i don't get it, the jodo / yari guys and gals don't do it, do they?? Confused!

They're dressed like kendoka because for their randori and shiai they don full kendo bogu, kote, etc. and hit each other pretty much full strength, so it's a pretty practical outfit. And the major jukendo group, the All Japan Jukendo Federation, is a subgroup of the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei; it's jodo section is all non-contact kata, but they wear kendo keikogi, too. Naginatadoka typically practice with all that plus shin guards, because lower leg cuts are legal (that tends to really screw up kendoka 'cause they never look down....)

Jukendo can be a tough sport - broken collarbones are a typical injury, sprains and contusions aplenty. Getting skewered by a white oak spear propelled by someone who knows what they're doing hurts. Ueshiba Morihei was considered a real master at it, and the military competitions even today are tough.

On the other hand, with some notable exceptions, very few jodo and yari types I know make contact, it's all pretty much non-contact kata with them; they could wear high heels, mini-skirts and fishnet pantyhose if they wished, but most wear sturdy white or indigo kendo keikogi-like tops and hakama. (I do know one Takeuchi jujutsu ryu group in Tokyo that has some folks that practice bo randori wearing full bogu, but they had to devise a split bamboo, shinai-like bo because a real bo is simply too dangerous.)

...i personally think they shouldn't be dressed in hakama and bogu when training in it because trainess most definitely did not wear a hakama when actually using it. they should be wearing boots and pants and some heavy padding on the chest and steel head mask.

The traditional, prewar outfit was sort of that, more like a Prussian military uniform. It's still used today for formal, non-contact kata demos only, while the regular kendo keokogi serves for practice, randori, and shiai. It is essentially the old Imperial Army formal exercise uniform.

I'll try to post a modern pic. I'd post some of my old ref Imperial Army pix but they'll just get stolen. They look pretty much like this except for a more well-padded shoulder / chest protector and a funky little round military cap.

And of course since you're practicing indoors in a dojo you'd never wear boots! :rolleyes:

Cheers,

[Fukuryu]

Yonshakujo, since you are the first person I come across that knows a lot about jukendo (at least the first I realize), I would bother you with a question if you don´t matter.
I was always intrigued by the small loop on the front right side of the tare obi (as seen on the photograph I linked above). I initally thought it would be for the tanken (just my imagination running wild), but at least as I use the kendo bogu, it will be almost covered by the do. Care to explain a little about it?

[JoDuncan]

...

They're dressed like kendoka because for their randori and shiai they don full kendo bogu, kote, etc. and hit each other pretty much full strength, so it's a pretty practical outfit. And the major jukendo group, the All Japan Jukendo Federation, is a subgroup of the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei; it's jodo section is all non-contact kata, but they wear kendo keikogi, too. Naginatadoka typically practice with all that plus shin guards, because lower leg cuts are legal (that tends to really screw up kendoka 'cause they never look down....)

..


About the kendo bogu, I think that if you have an already well developed protection for a contact budo, why not use it? And it is not exactly the same, look at this photo (http://www.bogubag.com/Bogu/Jukendo/J01_L.jpg) and you´ll spot the diferences.
Regarding the yari guys and gals, as per this article (http://www.koryu.com/library/harmstrong1.html) on Koryu.com, the same bogu is used for contact work within Owari Kan Ryu sojutsu curriculum.
..


So, it's purely for practical reasons then: The bogu already exists, with some minor mods I guess it could be used for a variety of contact weapons work.

But, seeing as how tsuki is "dangerous" i thought a more purpose built armour would have been used, the target (tsuki bit on the men) being essentially the same size; not surprising that broken collar bones are common.

Thanks for the answers, appreciated.

[ShinKenshi]

...the target (tsuki bit on the men) being essentially the same size...Actually, they made it much wider (http://www.bogubag.com/Bogu/Jukendo/J15_L.jpg) to account for that. In addition, the shoulder pad helps this since they're at a sideways kamae and it looks like the tsuki dare and that pad overlap some.

[Kenshi]

jukendo is substantially older than most gendai budo including aikido, karate, Shorinji kempo, gendai naginata, even modern sumo I think, etc. So, I guess it depends on your point of view.

I can understand that its a little bit older than modern inventions such as Karate, but substantially? Aikido, Naginata, Sumo, etc all have long established pedigrees which - im guessing - jukendo (bayonet fighting) cant match. You mentioned that there are techniques from naginata/sojutsu however.

But it is certainly, uniquely a Japanese budo, and is officially recognized as such by the Japanese government.

Yeah, this part is interesting. I wonder why. I recieved a copy of the Nippon Budokans BUDO earlier this year... must have a look at the jukendo section when I get home tonight.

Ive only ever met 1 person who actually did jukendo, and ive seen it only on tv... so im pretty much looking at this from an academic point of view. How long have you practised jukendo??

[JCM]

But it is certainly, uniquely a Japanese budo, and is officially recognized as such by the Japanese government

Thanks for the comments, interesting stuff.

But I feel I must perhaps add a small point, I am not a jukendo practitioner but my understanding is that it has a fair amount of influence from the French (and perhaps Portuguese), at the end of the day firearms were introduced in Japan by europeans, and also the use of bayonets. I believe it is still part of some modern armies training curriculum (bayonet use, not budo-like stuff), would that qualify as "gai-bayonet-jutsu" then?. My point being, -do'ing and -jutsu'ing things don't make them exclusive to Japan, is really only terminology.

I also don't understand why is not considered a gendai art. without going into too much detail Kendo has a lineage to very old arts, yet is considered gendai, why does the same principle not apply to jukendo? (I am not being sarcastic, I am genuinely curious).

[ahmed61086]

Thanks for the comments, interesting stuff.

But I feel I must perhaps add a small point, I am not a jukendo practitioner but my understanding is that it has a fair amount of influence from the French (and perhaps Portuguese), at the end of the day firearms were introduced in Japan by europeans, and also the use of bayonets. I believe it is still part of some modern armies training curriculum (bayonet use, not budo-like stuff), would that qualify as "gai-bayonet-jutsu" then?. My point being, -do'ing and -jutsu'ing things don't make them exclusive to Japan, is really only terminology.

I also don't understand why is not considered a gendai art. without going into too much detail Kendo has a lineage to very old arts, yet is considered gendai, why does the same principle not apply to jukendo? (I am not being sarcastic, I am genuinely curious).


Well, couldn't the same argument be put to swords as well. For example someone could say, "well swords were introduced from the Mainland(china) and then Japan made up their own styles, ect."(obvioulsy I am not going into any detail of what realy happened in history)

I dont think it is logical, to say that since it is weapon used or introduced from another country a long time ago, that it is not a japanese art. Because I am allmost certain, that the other countries dont train in it the way the Japanese do. Same with swords.

But possibly I am making an invalid comparison.

[ScottUK]

I read somewhere that the IJ army learned bayonet-fighting from the British in the early 1900's. Can't find the reference online though... :(

[JCM]

I read somewhere that the IJ army learned bayonet-fighting from the British in the early 1900's. Can't find the reference online though... :(

Actually, i was looking for my reference too, I think is on one of my books at home, can't remember which...

[Kenshi]

Well, I had a look at my book from Nippon Budokan. Its got loads of info about jukendo, including stuff, interestingly enough, about Rhythm Jukendo.

Big intro about Bayonet fighting in Europe.
In 1870 the Japanese army started using/learning French warfare, the Navy British.
In 1880 Jukenjutsu began to be taught in Toyama Gakuin. (it seems to be some sort of Japanese method based on sojutsu)
In 1884 France sent some guys over to Toyama Gakuin to teach bayonet fighting and fencing. At the time there were 3 types of kenjutsu being taught: Sei Kenjutsu (French fencing), Guntojutsu, and Jukenjutsu (French bayonet). There were complaints by those in the army that had a background in Japanese kenjutsu and sojutsu, but nothing was done about it.
In 1890 it was decided that the French style didnt suit Japanese people (!!),
In 1894 they tried to convert back using Hozoiin-ryu sojutsu...
In 1915 Tankenjutsu was born (again, mysteriously using sojutsu and not referring to any existing kenjutsu kodachi stuff)
1940 was the first year the name Jukendo was used.

Heres MY quick synopsis on the history section:

1. There was some playing around with the weapon by the native Japanese.
2. The French came over and taught their methods formally.
3. The Japanese try to Japan-ify it.

Heres my opinion:

The book emphases jukendos "Japaneseness." The history section keeps repeating stuff about sojutsu and what not. Of-course, its trying to promote jukendo to Japanese people....

The budo-language used is the same as it uses for Kendo, Naginata, etc: budo is a life long pursuit with no age/gender boundaries, and is practised to make yourself a better person and more useful for your country. This is why its "budo" and is controlled by Nippon Budokan.

Jukendo is - minus the bogu - seems to be almost definetly a French thing. The talk of their being influence of Hozoin-ryu too me is - sadly - mysterious. Ive seen Hozoin-ryu many times (my sempais bro is a menkyo-kaiden) and I cant see anything similiar..... the weapon used in Hozoin-ryu is about 4 times as long as the jukendo Kiju (is this right? 木銃... "wooden gun")

My disclaimer:

Dont do, never done, and have no interest in Jukendo except for an academic one. I dont say "you shouldnt do it" (though I think its dubious to teach kids) and I would never say "what your doing is crap" or whatever. If you like it, then great, good luck to you.

[JCM]

Well, couldn't the same argument be put to swords as well. For example someone could say, "well swords were introduced from the Mainland(china) and then Japan made up their own styles, ect."(obvioulsy I am not going into any detail of what realy happened in history)

I dont think it is logical, to say that since it is weapon used or introduced from another country a long time ago, that it is not a japanese art. Because I am allmost certain, that the other countries dont train in it the way the Japanese do. Same with swords.

But possibly I am making an invalid comparison.


Sorry my meaning was that the introduction was rather recent, and that bayonet techniques are not unique to Japan, but are still in use in other armies today. i hope that clarifies it

[NorthernKendoka]

I'm not getting in to the discussion of how japanese jukendo is, but I can tell you that it is really fun to do. I had a three hour crash course at the Nippon Budokan international budo seminar in Katsuura in 2005. We weren't allowed to do keiko (naturally) but at least the equivalent of uchi-komi. Apart from being soo much fun it gave me a new awareness of what i means to controll the centerline and the true meaning of tsuki. If you have the opportuninty to try jukendo take it.

[Oroshi]

the weapon used in Hozoin-ryu is about 4 times as long as the jukendo Kiju (is this right? 木銃... "wooden gun")
It's mokujū. Yeah, I know....

Rhythm Jukendo.
:eek:

[Fukuryu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenshi
Rhythm Jukendo.


:eek:

Why not? If there is Rhythm Naginata (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13072), after all... And perhaps that "lighter side" of jukendo can somehow "wash out" some negative feelings about its origins...

[jmarsten]

Omoto sensei of Tacoma Kendo Club was a juken instructor for the Japanese army from about 1939 If you have some questions I am sure he would be happy to answer them.

I think this address is still good Rod Nobuto Omoto
E-mail Address(es):
rodomoto@harbornet.com

[Kenshi]

I can tell you that it is really fun to do.

Id definetly like to give it a bash. This discussion has raised my interest a little bit... I might even see if I can check out a shiai sometime next year.

( p.s. when you popping over?)

It's mokujū.

Yeah, thats it!! Id heard that before but I was looking at the kanji and wondering.

[Maro]

.

Toyama-ryu/Nakamura-ryu are a bit dubious due to their actually testing their stuff out in Manchuria. Id love to be able to research into war-criminals/crimes and their budo connections.



I'd say that's rather a generalistic statement. The Swords were issued as part of their kit and were used as weapons - no different to pistols and rifles. Of course they were going to be used. The "testing" them out statement implies that Toyama Ryu was specifically designed for war crimes as you've written it. Nakamura Ryu was not around at that point. It's a bit generalistic to single out one Ryu and infer they were the main protaganists of war crimes.

As for Kendo being removed from sword work, you are implying that us Toyama Practitioners are de facto war criminals whilst kendoka are just sportsmen. They both have the same genesis. :confused:[

[Yonshakujo]

Thanks for the comments, interesting stuff.

But I feel I must perhaps add a small point, I am not a jukendo practitioner but my understanding is that it has a fair amount of influence from the French (and perhaps Portuguese), at the end of the day firearms were introduced in Japan by europeans, and also the use of bayonets. I believe it is still part of some modern armies training curriculum (bayonet use, not budo-like stuff), would that qualify as "gai-bayonet-jutsu" then?. My point being, -do'ing and -jutsu'ing things don't make them exclusive to Japan, is really only terminology.

I also don't understand why is not considered a gendai art. without going into too much detail Kendo has a lineage to very old arts, yet is considered gendai, why does the same principle not apply to jukendo? (I am not being sarcastic, I am genuinely curious).

In the rush to modernize Japan, several commissions were sent around the world to study everything - govt, education, industry, army, navy, etc....

The final decision was that the best Navy in the world was the Royal Navy, the best Army the French. Both were invited and did set up exchange teachers, etc. If you go to the Japan Maritime Self Defense Force today, their traditions look very RN. In fact the UK shipyard Vickers built much of the Imperial Navy fleet that sank the Russian fleet at Tsushima, and their last imported warships.

The Army was enamored with the French until the Franco-Prussian War, when suddenly the Prussians became more interesting. But the French were nutty about the 'Spirit of the Bayonet' through WWI, when it was demonstrated that elan' and espirit didn't mean d**k against a Maxim machinegun in working order, but that spirit lived on in the Imperial Army. Surely British instructors also gave bayonet classes; this is what soldiers do.

(Incidentally, the Prussians also taught the Japanese that total iron discipline was the cornerstone of an modern army, and the Imperial Army took it to heart. And passed it on their Korean officers, who later set up the Republic of Korea Army, known worldwide for rigid discipline.)

Other odd bids lived on, including the formal exercise uniform still used in jukendo kata, etc.

And I did not specify, but jukendo is a gendai budo per the Ministry of Education.

In 1915 Tankenjutsu was born (again, mysteriously using sojutsu and not referring to any existing kenjutsu kodachi stuff)

I'm probably out on a limb here, but think about the art and the environment. As a military martial art, the assumption was primarily sword bayonet against a rifle bayonet. Sojutsu schools probably have more to offer than kendo for this situation. Bayonets are primarily straight stabbing weapons, not slashing weapons like kodachi, and the balance is different. Although there are bayonet slash moves, typically rifles don't lend themselves readily to slashes, but thrusts are pretty well balanced.

[Kenshi]

you are implying that us Toyama Practitioners are de facto war criminals[

I said no such thing.

As far as I know Toyama-ryu was set up in the early 20s and was part of the military education of Japanese officers. Nakayama Hakudo is often mentioned as helping in the development of it.

Japanese soldiers that were trained in military arts in Japan went to China and were involved in all sorts of things (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LeonardGSiffleet.jpg) with their swords, the most infamous being the "race to kill one hundred people with the sword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contest_To_Cut_Down_100_People)." This was published in the newspapers in Japan and led to the two guys involved being tried and executed as war criminals. (although later some aplogists tried to say it didnt happen, there is no proof to the contrary)

Now, were officers trained in Toyama-ryu involved in dubious acts? I dont know, but there is almost certainly a probability, if even slight, given the number of incidents that were reportedly done by the Japanese army, its officers included.

Were people who trained in kendo involved in dubious acts? I dont know, but im betting almost certainly.

We`d need a fluent Japanese-speaking historian with an interest in the matter to research. Its far beyond my - and im guessing your? - capactity to look into.

Ive also had a couple of people tell me that the beloved Nakayama H was himself involved in dodgy behaviour. Ive never bothered to research more on the matter as its old news. Ive also had a long conversation with an old Japanese guy who was at Nanjing... he told me quite explicitly about what he saw there, decapitations included.

Am I calling you and everyone who practises Toyama-ryu a War Crimnal: no my dear friend, I am not.

[KO1598]

ha those japanese officers got wut they deserved.

[ScottUK]

Prick.

Someone ban his arse.

[JCM]

Prick.

Someone ban his arse.

Seconded

Good Stuff

Thanks for the info, is great to read!

[Fukuryu]

Thanks for the info, is great to read!

Thanks too, Yonshakujo, and thanks also to Rincewind for the videos, the best ones I´ve seen so far.

[Yonshakujo]

.......
Were people who trained in kendo involved in dubious acts? I dont know, but im betting almost certainly. .........

Certainly, no doubt.

The school budo program adopted by the Ministry of Education essentially required martial arts training from young years - for able bodied boys, that was primarily kendo and judo.

By the early 1940's, this training was so militarized that you could look at it paramilitary training. Traditional arts like archery and spear (kyudo and sojutsu) were abandoned as obsolete in favor of rifle marksmanship and jukendo.

The Dai Nippon Butokukai, under the direction of the Ministry of Education, and later also the Army Ministry, set up a specialized Budo school to train the required instructors; at some times, demobilized soldiers got priority for these jobs. If you talk to anyone educated during that time, sometimes the training was Spartan and militaristic. The last Chairman of the Butokukai was Prime Minister Hideki Tojo, later hung as a Class A war criminal, and an enthusiastic kendoka, IIRC.

Kendo was more associated with the Army, while judo was the budo of choice for the Navy.

And that was what was banned during the Occupation - the school budo program.

So plenty of school-trained kendoka were in the military, and the odds that any particular war criminal was a kendoka seems fairly high.

Cheers,

[KO1598]

Oh so you guys support Japanese officers having contest for their own amusment to see who could kill the most people with their swords? Theres no way these officers could ever kill more than if they're lucky 10 real soldiers fighting against them. The rest had to be prisoners and civillains. You support the massacre at Nanking if you believe those Japanese officers didn't deserve to get executed.

[Obulco]

Oh so you guys support Japanese officers having contest for their own amusment to see who could kill the most people with their swords? Theres no way these officers could ever kill more than if they're lucky 10 real soldiers fighting against them. The rest had to be prisoners and civillains. You support the massacre at Nanking if you believe those Japanese officers didn't deserve to get executed.

I doubt anybody is supporting such a thing.

This is an interesting threat. Please leave it alone.

[KO1598]

they're the ones saying i should get banned for supporting the punishment of 2 war criminals.

[ScottUK]

War criminals when found guilty should be punished appropriately.

Doesn't change the fact that you are an arse, sir.

[Yonshakujo]

Here are two videos I recorded during the preparations for enbu at Nippon Budokan in Poland. Hope You'll enjoy them :)

Here they practice waza (or so I think):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9A3xeOfegxo

And here's a short shiai:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4v0QEwZmiIU

I just watched a 1955 Japanese movie on the History Channel in Tokyo that included a credible military jukendo and bayonet training session.

映画「ソ満国境２号作戦　消えた中隊」
SOMAN KOKKYO 2GOSAKUSEN KIETA CHUTAI
(my translation: Soviet-Manchurian Border Operation #2 - The Lost Company)

監督：三村明、脚本：黒澤明、菊島隆三、出演：辰巳柳太郎、河村憲一郎。
１９５５年、日本制作。
ソ連と国境を接する満州における日本陸軍の中隊が、ある策謀の渦に巻き込まれて消失するという戦争サスペン ス。

A cooperative movie between Kurosawa and a friend.

Don't know if it's available on DVD or tape. And I'm too technically challenged to have grabbed it to post, maybe someone else would.

The soldiers are in an infantry company posted on the Sov-Manchurian border in 1941, and their jukendo gear looks pretty authentic compared to my period pix - could be Imperial Army surplus gear for all I know.

Cheers,

[Luke]

hey guys let's not give much on history, i'm stll reeling from my relgion's connections with another's more dubius origins.

googl babalon rising for more info.

[Yonshakujo]

Seconded

Thanks for the info, is great to read!

You are welcome.

Hey, I just used the 'Ignore' function, which reduces the Ignored's post to a single line notification. So all rants, idiocies, blahblah are hidden. So, even direct retorts are ignored.

And the signal to noise ratio on the Forum just surged dramatically.

Try it, you'll like it. I wish more fora systems had this function.

Once someone gets no response at all to their drivel for long enough, they'll either get bored and go away or learn how to exchange info in a civil fashion. Don't quote them and it's like they're not even there.

Merry Christmas,

YSJ

"Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig."
-- Robert Heinlein.

[Fukuryu]

Just in case somebody missed it:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=V1-QNccpH_Y&feature=related
It´s on the list of videos related to the ones linked by Rincewind. It shows at high speed (at least on my computer), but with the low availability of anything about jukendo it has its usefulness, I think.

[ne0r]

Interesting thread.

Fukuyru, what is this video about? It looks rather weird to me, is this a part of a real training?

Besides, I have come to this opinion:
Jukendo may be frightening or weird to people because there is no or only little "historical distance" between its origins and its contemporary form. And I think that kendo can only be practised as a martial art today because there is no more connection to it's gruesome roots. It's like it has been filtered: Only the positive aspects have been left for us to enjoy. Though it is interesting whether or not to differentiate between kendo and jukendo under the aspect of how much time has lapsed between actual use and practising it as a martial art. (Yes, the roots of jukendo may be quite old, too; but I mean that the sword isn't used as a military weapon today whereas the bayonet is.)
Furthermore I think there is a great difference in reception concerning what people (probably) associate with it: kendo is strongly romanticized; people think (especially outside of Japan, I believe) of the proud samurai, they think about the way of the warrior. Jukendo never reached such reputation. It didn't have much time to evolve whereas kendo blossomed from an art of killing into a way of life. Surely Jukendo is practiced in a very similar way to kendo nowadays, but the reception is quite a different one. In the end I find both are great arts; Jukendo surely is a lot fun and I'll try it out if I'll ever have the opportunity.
What irritates me is that they use weapons on weapons - it's somehow like not using the "main" weapon.

[Fukuryu]

Fukuyru, what is this video about? It looks rather weird to me, is this a part of a real training?
No idea, I found it and and since it says "jukendo" in the title I thought it would be a good idea to post it here so the knowledgeable people could perhaps enlightens us.


What irritates me is that they use weapons on weapons - it's somehow like not using the "main" weapon.
Well, you´re right, but if they use just the "main" weapon, the fun would be taken out... I think. :D

And the rest of your post reflects exactly my own opinion about this issue, couldn´t have said any better.

[ne0r]

Well, you´re right, but if they use just the "main" weapon, the fun would be taken out... I think. :D

Hm, that makes sense to me... ;D

[Yonshakujo]

Interesting thread.

Fukuyru, what is this video about? It looks rather weird to me, is this a part of a real training?

Besides, I have come to this opinion:
Jukendo may be frightening or weird to people because there is no or only little "historical distance" between its origins and its contemporary form. And I think that kendo can only be practised as a martial art today because there is no more connection to it's gruesome roots. It's like it has been filtered: Only the positive aspects have been left for us to enjoy. Though it is interesting whether or not to differentiate between kendo and jukendo under the aspect of how much time has lapsed between actual use and practising it as a martial art. (Yes, the roots of jukendo may be quite old, too; but I mean that the sword isn't used as a military weapon today whereas the bayonet is.)
Furthermore I think there is a great difference in reception concerning what people (probably) associate with it: kendo is strongly romanticized; people think (especially outside of Japan, I believe) of the proud samurai, they think about the way of the warrior. Jukendo never reached such reputation. It didn't have much time to evolve whereas kendo blossomed from an art of killing into a way of life. Surely Jukendo is practiced in a very similar way to kendo nowadays, but the reception is quite a different one. In the end I find both are great arts; Jukendo surely is a lot fun and I'll try it out if I'll ever have the opportunity.

What irritates me is that they use weapons on weapons - it's somehow like not using the "main" weapon.

Well, if it helps, the video is labelled " Category: Comedy" in English, that might give it away - it's a spoof. The guys are goofing around by showing lethal followup, stabbing the fallen, which is a no-no in jukendo and modern kendo, too. (The Japanese labels are 'Deadly Technique', 'Funny/Interesting', and 'Laugh Out Loud') :D

I think that this serves to make my point - jukendo is seen as pretty far removed from real bayonet fighting even by its practioners.

Your comments on the 'historic distance' makes sense to me, with a couple of exceptions.

The 'do' 道　part of both kendo and jukendo are the same; they present themselves as 武道,　budo, martial ways as all encompassing moral lifestyle frameworks based on lifetime study, a lifetime polishing of skills and morality. Every single do makes this claim, even flower arranging.

Just because you don't see it or it's too rare to observe, I suggest that you not dismiss it as inferior to kendo in any fashion.

Except.... "What irritates me is that they use weapons on weapons - it's somehow like not using the "main" weapon."

I really don't get that comment. Recall that the rifle itself has no edge, only the bayonet, and cross-body checks and buttstrokes don't point - only thrusts with the tip against certain targets count. So that may help explain some of the strange motions to you.

And part of the the reason that I say that it's far removed from real military bayonet fighting, which in my experience uses bayonet tip, edge, rifle cross blocks, buttstrokes, stomps, kicks, knees, elbows, bites, headbutts, whatever works. :dead:

Most of this doesn't even work with modern assault weapons, which are too light, short and poorly balanced for bayonetfighting. Many moons ago when I was a soldier, we used M-14's, a big, long, heavy rifle that's a great hand-to-hand weapon in the open. That's a suitable bayonet fighting rifle with a long oak stock / long barrel, not a short, plastic M-16. You could practice most of these techniques with the mokujo but not under jukendo rules.

Almost as far removed from reality as kendo. :ko:

Merry Christmas,

[ne0r]

Just because you don't see it or it's too rare to observe, I suggest that you not dismiss it as inferior to kendo in any fashion.

[...]

Merry Christmas,

I agree with you^^ What I meant was that jukendo might be seen as inferior to other "-do"s because bayonet fighting is still used today and because jukendo didn't have the time to evolve into something romantic in the minds of the outstanders. I didn't mean to dismiss it as inferior, I just wanted to point out that it probably is dismissed by lots of people because of the reasons I stated. And I absolutely agree that it shouldn't be treated as something inferior to kendo as it promotes the same values in, I would expect, the same way.

What I meant by "What irritates me is that they use weapons on weapons - it's somehow like not using the "main" weapon." was that they use only the "bayonet" on their "rifles", not the rifles itselves. That is quite strange to me ("Irritating" is maybe not the best word. Unfortunately it's a false friend in German.) as the bayonet is rather a weapon of last resort to me, whereas the rifle itself is the weapon what is expected to be mostly used (in real combat). But as we know, neither kendo nor jukendo have to resemble real combat.
By the way, after thinking about jukendo it has become way more easy for me to accept that kendo doesn't resemble real fighting concerning the roots of kendo... The war... This was quite difficult for me and my naive and immature ideas to accept before.

[ne0r]

Oh, and merry christmas^^

[Fukuryu]

Thank you very much, Yonshakujo, for clarifying the last video. Please keep the info about jukendo coming, it is very appreciated.

neOr, here you go (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b6fwFG1ITM)... :D

[ne0r]

Hehe, I didn't know there was something like this in the world of budo... Interesting, thanks^^

However, now I prefer jukendo...

Oh and

Please keep the info about jukendo coming, it is very appreciated.
Seconded^^ Very interesting topic, thanks for all the information.

[Yonshakujo]

Thank you very much, Yonshakujo, for clarifying the last video. Please keep the info about jukendo coming, it is very appreciated....

You're welcome. If it's of interest, I will stick in a couple of posts sometime next year. The art is really not well known even in Japan.

I was at Jukendo Federation HQ office a couple of weeks ago. Lots of Tokyo jukendoka and kendoka will get together for the Kagamibiraki New Year's opening ceremony at the Budokan on Jan 14, but I already promised a training partner I'd be in the judo group that day. But maybe I can get a couple of pix. http://www.nipponbudokan.or.jp/shinkou/html_1/main1111.html

To confuse folks further, one of the more interesting competitions in jukendo is the tanken ('short sword') competition, sword bayonet (simulated by kodachi shinai)versus bayonet, in Feb. Unfortunately I'll be out of Japan that day, but may be able to post a couple of pix.　　Meanwhile, take a look at http://www.jukendo.info/renmei16.htm

And here's the Federation's website
http://www.jukendo.info/. It's inside the Budokan, as is the ZenKenRen.

Happy New Year - Year of the Rat!* .....


*patron god of lawyers

[Fukuryu]

If it's of interest, I will stick in a couple of posts sometime next year. (...) Maybe I can get a couple of pix.

Yes, please.
While I obviously cannot talk for everyone, I think a reasonable interest in this martial art has been show in this very thread. Anything you provide will be more than welcome.

Until now, all I could find about jukendo and tankendo in english (reading japanese is a few years away at this stage for me) worth paying attention to were this post (http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0105&L=iaido-l&P=12950) on Iaido-L and this one (http://koryu.com/library/mskoss12.html) on Koryu.com. Since both were by Meik Skoss, godan jukendo and sandan tankendo (at the date of his bio (http://koryu.com/bio.html#mskoss) on Koryu.com), I consider them gospel.
I found this photographs (http://wabujitsu.com/Jukendo.htm) of real military jukendo training very interesting also.
And of course, the video on the Furyu website (http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/Jukendo1.html) (I suppose everybody saw it already, but just in case...).

[MSPaintClock]

Wow Jukendo is so fast!

[Yonshakujo]

Not that this has much (if anything...) to do w/ Japanese jukendo, but it is useful to understand some of more ceremonial aspects of the use of rifle bayonets, and the physics behind swinging a heavy rifle around. For those of us that struggle to get a two-man kendo kata into some semblance of coordination and grace, think about the work behind this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y90UPLLo6nY%20

The 24-man 'silent drill' platoon is at the Marine Barracks in Washington, DC, but there are volunteer U.S. Marine and Army groups around the world that do this. The 'silent' part means that no one is calling out the cadence, so the group's actions must be self-timed. (In fact, I am sure that some of the tiny mistakes in timing are because inside that basketball court, the noise would be so high that it would be difficult to hear the timings noted by slaps on the upper receiver, barrel, slings, foot stamps, etc.)

As standard in the US military for this sort of drill, they're using M-14 rifles with chromed dress bayonets; the bayonets aren't sharpened, but are seriously pointy. If there are any missteps, someone normally gets gouged pretty seriously, because the rifle weighs about 9 pounds (~4 kilograms), and they twirl around the faces. I've seen it happen. Watch towards the end where the bayonets are removed because of the specific movements, then replaced to finish the drill.

The mokuju mimics the overall length of a much longer late Meiji / Taisho era Japanese military rifle w/ attached sword bayonet, which is much too long to do this sort of drill (there are other, elaborate drills used with that sort of rifle, but they are mostly now reduced to the national ceremonial military units, if not lost. The US military does not do it, maybe some European military ceremonial guards.)

The entire drill itself is an elaboration of a more mundane march and an inspection by the sergeant in charge, which happens around 3min; the sergeant is walking down the ranks, inspecting the Marines; the soldier whose rifle is inspected 'at random' must first remove his bayonet, open the rifle's bolt, look down and inspect the chamber to ensure that it is not loaded, then pass the safe weapon to the inspecting sergeant, who examines the rifle for cleanliness and servicability. This is done with simple, direct motions within arms length in normal rifle drill (no long distance throws, but vigorous presentations; hesitation sometimes results in a rifle getting slammed into someone's face or chest) but obviously quite elaborately in this example. In a full inspection, the inspecting officer / NCO would pass behind the front row and inspect the bayonet and other gear from the rear.

For tips related to martial arts training, watch their bodies and lack of shoulder or hip sway; they do not let the heavy rifles control their movement, they control the motion of the rifles by staying centered, low, and all rotations are within reasonable range and control without being overly extended. That is really key to how they make it look easy, and a good lesson for any martial artist.

Cheers,

[Obulco]

To confuse folks further, one of the more interesting competitions in jukendo is the tanken ('short sword') competition, sword bayonet (simulated by kodachi shinai)versus bayonet, in Feb. Unfortunately I'll be out of Japan that day, but may be able to post a couple of pix.　　Meanwhile, take a look at http://www.jukendo.info/renmei16.htm

And here's the Federation's website
http://www.jukendo.info/. It's inside the Budokan, as is the ZenKenRen.

Happy New Year - Year of the Rat!* .....

I do not know if you still reading the forum, but these videos were posted this week on youtube. I think that they give an idea of the tanken competition you were talking about. Thanks again for your posts.

Tanken vs. Tanken

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paivqjhbuJI

Tanken vs. Shinai

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz0kFRCK0K4

[Yonshakujo]

I do not know if you still reading the forum, but these videos were posted this week on youtube. I think that they give an idea of the tanken competition you were talking about. Thanks again for your posts.

Tanken vs. Tanken

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paivqjhbuJI

Tanken vs. Shinai

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz0kFRCK0K4

I don't read so much.

And here's the tanken kata from the same gent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-sD34aImOw&feature=related

Thanks for this - illustrates it well.

Finally back in Japan, may have time to work on that jukendo article in a month or so.

[NigelSponge]

jukendo kinda looks like something that would make people OOO and AHHH! at a demo, but beyond that it isn't much compared to kendo. I dont know anything about it really, just my first impressions.

[Fukuryu]

jukendo kinda looks like something that would make people OOO and AHHH! at a demo, but beyond that it isn't much compared to kendo. I dont know anything about it really, just my first impressions.

Why do you think it isn´t much compared to kendo, NigelSponge? I know about it as much as you do (all my knowledge is represented by the links in this thread), but I found an intriguing system, using two different implements with completely different sets of requirement, covering a wide array of distances and situations... definitively something I would love to know a little more about. But well, this shows what they say about opinions...:) And now that I think about it, should I know about kendo as much as I do about jukendo, maybe I wouldn´t think very high of it... Naaaaah, always love the "faceless blue robot" look...

Thank you very for the finding, Obulco, and waiting for Yonshakujo´s article.

[Dierik]

Hi there, could you give me some advice please? Is there any possibility to train Jukendo in Europe? I'm very interrested in it and i would like to try.
Thank you very much.

[Fukuryu]

Welcome to KWF, Dierik.

Well, I am too far away to be of any real help, but most of the videos posted previously are from events in Europe, in particular Poland and Finland; for the last one, at least a dojo is given: Ki-Ken-Tai-Icchi, Helsinki. You should try contacting them, and from there maybe you can get access to somebody closer to your home... maybe. Please keep us posted of your findings.

And by the way, couple more jukendo videos on YT for our viewing pleasure...

52e Jukendo Yusho taikai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkMs2232P0w&feature=related)

52e Jukendo Yusho taikai 2
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FTFVI55yyo&feature=user)

[Fukuryu]

Meanwhile, couple more videos from YouTube, from the 20th National High School Jukendo Championship, if I got it right.

First (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vmDQofpbC8&feature=related)

Second (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0tpSW3vA-4&feature=related)

Enjoy.

[braxtonhicks]

Just watched some of these jukendo clips, and happened upon this! Good for a laugh!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRrrsCPaJ50&feature=related