The "ultimate" for Jodo

[Newbie]

No, this isn't some stupid youtube thing, just a genuine question:

Kendo has the men cut and kirikaeshi
Iaido has the men cut and first kata

These are the ultimate exercises that some up everything about the art, or so I've been led to believe. The ones that you will spend your lifetime trying to perfect.

Jodo, I can think maybe honte uchi is the men cut of iai/kendo, maybe? Is that it, is there no kata or exercise that embodies what the art is about?

[Fred27]

No, this isn't some stupid youtube thing, just a genuine question:

Kendo has the men cut and kirikaeshi
Iaido has the men cut and first kata

These are the ultimate exercises that some up everything about the art, or so I've been led to believe. The ones that you will spend your lifetime trying to perfect.

Jodo, I can think maybe honte uchi is the men cut of iai/kendo, maybe? Is that it, is there no kata or exercise that embodies what the art is about?

This is a bit out of my league in terms of knowledge but I can add my 2 cents worth of opinion. Honte Uchi is the first technique you do (in 9/10 dojos). The Honte uchi technique is featured in kata in the Okuden series which is the "inner transmission/teachings".

To perform a proper honte uchi is something even Shimizu Sensei confessed to have been struggling with even in his last years. He said something along the lines of: "I wish that someday I can get my left honte uchi to look (as good) as my right honte uchi". I think he said this in his final years after more than 60 years of Jodo-training. :)

[Newbie]

The Honte uchi technique is featured in kata in the Okuden series which is the "inner transmission/teachings".

Sorry, I've only done seitei, can you explain this?

Sound like from what Shimizu Sensei said, it does kinda sound like jodo's men cut :)

[Fred27]

Sorry, I've only done seitei, can you explain this?

Sound like from what Shimizu Sensei said, it does kinda sound like jodo's men cut :)

Ah...Well SMR-Jodo has 8 kata-series..(or 7 in some groups)
They are Omote, Chudan, Ran-ai, Kage, Samidare, Gohon-no-midare (which was developed by Shimizu Takaji), Okuden and the final series Hiden Gokui, the last of which are only taught to Menkyo candidates. All in all around 64 kata (depending on how you count).

Seitei Jodo is comprised of Kata drawn from the Omote, Chudan and Ran-ai series rolled into one system of 12 kata. And of course there are the 12 kihon techniques. These techniques were NOT developed by the samurai but by Shimizu Takaji and a few others in the 1920's and 1930's. The techniques are drawn FROM these above kata-series.

You do Honte Uchi in Tsuki Zue for instance, but you also do it in the Okuden series. You do Gyakute Tsuki in Seigan, kuri hanashi and do barai in Ran-ai and so on.

I daresay that for most the Honte Uchi is the hardest technique to master and that is prolly one of the reasons it was featured as the FIRST technique a new Jodo-student is taught. So I'm personally happy to be doing the Honte Uchi at every practice. :)

[Newbie]

I was gonna give you rep for being so helpful but have to spread it :(

[Fred27]

I was gonna give you rep for being so helpful but have to spread it :(

Rep? A Jodoka craves not these things :D

[Newbie]

......


but it's okay to obsess over grades, yeah?


JUST JOKING. I wouldn't do that, now would I Sats, Marcus?

[Fred27]

......


but it's okay to obsess over grades, yeah?


JUST JOKING. I wouldn't do that, now would I Sats, Marcus?

Hehe :). Nah the kyu/dan grades arent held in high esteem by everyone in our org but they are considered to be necessary..obviously..or they would have removed them by now :).

While we are on the subject, how often do Seitei Jodo grade and what are teh requirements?

*edit*

I'm getting a deja vu..Sorry if I asked this before :P

[Marcus_P]

......


but it's okay to obsess over grades, yeah?


JUST JOKING. I wouldn't do that, now would I Sats, Marcus?

*Glares* You better be. ;)

[Marcus_P]

While we are on the subject, how often do Seitei Jodo grade and what are teh requirements?


Really depends on the organisation, I believe.

In Australia (WA at least, and provided you have the grading panel), there's a minimum of three months between kyu grades (starting at 4th kyu).

Then between 1st kyu to Shodan a 6th month wait, then Shodan to Nidan 1 year, Nidan to Sandan 2 years, Sandan to Yondan 3 years, etc. etc.

Note these are MINIMUM times between gradings - if you're not ready it's perfectly fine to wait longer.

As for requirements... If I'm not mistaken Kyu grades are by organisation, though Dan grades are pretty standard internationally?

In Australia:
Kyu Grades:
4th - first four tandoku
3rd - first eight tandoku + first kata
2nd - all twelve tandoku + kata 1, 2
1st - kata 1, 2, 3

Then Dan Grades:
Shodan: Kata 1-5
Nidan: Kata 2-6
Sandan: Kata 3-7

I believe Yondan changes to Kata 7-11, and Godan 8-12? I know it's not 4-8, it jumps, but I can't remember what number it jumps to. I think 7+...

[torashin]

No, this isn't some stupid youtube thing, just a genuine question:

Jodo, I can think maybe honte uchi is the men cut of iai/kendo, maybe? Is that it, is there no kata or exercise that embodies what the art is about?

Hi Newbie

Just read the link and I agree with your comment about it takes a life time to perfect. Doesn't everything in Budo :)

Re Iai, Nukitsuki is the first cut and Kiritsuki the main cut. Both are practiced with equal emphasis.

Anyway, back to your chat. It appears to me that All the Kihon will take me years to get to grips with. But I would have thought that Hiki otoshi would be the technique that required most attention out of all of the Kihon.

A quote from one of Nishioka Senseis' intereviews from jodojo.com "In SMR Jo, Hiki-otoshi is one of the hidden techniques"
link: http://www.jodojo.com/jodo01.html

Again this is my view but I always feel that Hiki otoshi has all the parts present in Honte uchi but with a little bit more added. If that makes sense.

That's me.

Cheers

[Newbie]

Noone likes hikiotoshi. Except this Hikiotoshi of course: http://www.thecheezburgerfactory.com...8754843750.jpg

But it seems to me that everyone has problems with that particular tandoku. But what's easier to execute - men or doh? Mae or kesa giri? But I know which one you'll spend more time trying to perfect..

*Glares* You better be.

Umm... yeah, sure Marcus.

[Newbie]

Oops, didn't get to edit in time. Broken link should be: http://arwenspiccies.tripod.com/budo/cheezeburgercat.htm

[torashin]

Noone likes hikiotoshi. Except this Hikiotoshi of course:

But what's easier to execute - men or doh? Mae or kesa giri? But I know which one you'll spend more time trying to perfect..

Umm... yeah, sure Marcus.

One thing I picked up from the Gasshuku in Prague was that Kesa giri is used always and you should visualise going through Men not Do.

If you were doing Uchi Komi practice it would have to be at Men or you would miss the sword completely.
I like to practice this kihon using Uchi komi, that way the sound tells you how close you are to getting it right. Unfortunately I still hear too many Thwacks for my liking (angles wrong :()

Love Samurai cat pic :)

Cheers

[Fred27]

You (Newbie) can also check out Nishioka Senseis comments on Honte and Gyakute uchi in this interview. (http://www.jodojo.com/jodo03.html) Well actually its about the grip in Honte and Gyakute but he draws a few parallels to Kendo and Iai grips.

If you wish to do some extra studies you could read every interview with Nishioka Sensei found here: http://www.jodojo.com/jodo01.html

[John Seavitt]

A quote from one of Nishioka Senseis' intereviews from jodojo.com "In SMR Jo, Hiki-otoshi is one of the hidden techniques"
link: http://www.jodojo.com/jodo01.html

Again this is my view but I always feel that Hiki otoshi has all the parts present in Honte uchi but with a little bit more added. If that makes sense.

That's me.

Indeed, considering further that it - or waza much like it - appears in nearly every kata. Probably means something, or so I'm told ...

John

[Fred27]

Really depends on the organisation, I believe.

In Australia (WA at least, and provided you have the grading panel), there's a minimum of three months between kyu grades (starting at 4th kyu).

Then between 1st kyu to Shodan a 6th month wait, then Shodan to Nidan 1 year, Nidan to Sandan 2 years, Sandan to Yondan 3 years, etc. etc.

Note these are MINIMUM times between gradings - if you're not ready it's perfectly fine to wait longer.

As for requirements... If I'm not mistaken Kyu grades are by organisation, though Dan grades are pretty standard internationally?

In Australia:
Kyu Grades:
4th - first four tandoku
3rd - first eight tandoku + first kata
2nd - all twelve tandoku + kata 1, 2
1st - kata 1, 2, 3

Then Dan Grades:
Shodan: Kata 1-5
Nidan: Kata 2-6
Sandan: Kata 3-7

I believe Yondan changes to Kata 7-11, and Godan 8-12? I know it's not 4-8, it jumps, but I can't remember what number it jumps to. I think 7+...

Excellent info there. Thats more than I knew..or at least remember. :P
There is no 5th kyu in Seitei Jodo?

I would return the favour and post the SMR-Jodo equivelant of the above info, but to tell the truth I'm not THAT familiar with how long you are supposed to wait between grades. We only grade once a year here in our dojo in any case unless we go to Gasshuku & camps.

[torashin]

We only grade once a year here in our dojo in any case unless we go to Gasshuku & camps.

Hi Fred

I didn't realise that you didn't grade outside of Gasshuku. Is a general rule for your group or is it because of the level you're at perhaps?

Are you going to the Kagami Biraki in january?

Cheers

[Fred27]

Hi Fred

I didn't realise that you didn't grade outside of Gasshuku. Is a general rule for your group or is it because of the level you're at perhaps?

Are you going to the Kagami Biraki in january?

Cheers

Not quite, I think I expressed myself a bit vague there. In our dojo we grade once a year excluding the times we go on Gasshuku. :) Long before my time it was decided to hold the grading during the local SMR-camp we hold in Sweden every year. Fred Quant (who I think you met at the Gasshuku) comes to Sweden every year as a guest-instructor for this mini-camp and he is part of the grading-panel. Oh, you can read the report from the 2007 years mini-camp here (http://www.fej.ch/en/records/sweden2007.htm), written by yours truly :D. Thats our main grading session per year excluding Gasshuku.

I'm afraid I wont be able to make it to the January Camp. The kagamibiraki is a very fun weekend, but its also a very expensive weekend and I need to keep my cash on a leash right now. I went last year though and it was great fun. :)

All the best!

[torashin]

Hi Fred

Sounds like it was a great course, is it the same time each year?

If so I'll have to look into flights for next year or something.

Also did Sten-Erik get the DVD's from Prague? I think it was Fred and Serge who demonstrated Omote in prague.

CU Soon

Cheers

[Fred27]

Hi Fred

Sounds like it was a great course, is it the same time each year?

If so I'll have to look into flights for next year or something.

Also did Sten-Erik get the DVD's from Prague? I think it was Fred and Serge who demonstrated Omote in prague.

CU Soon

Cheers

In 2008 the kagamibiraki will take place 4th to 6th January. in Geneva :)
You can check the "Calendar"-section on the European Jodo Federation website (http://www.fej.ch/en/calendar.htm) for the dates of this and other camps. It is updated on a regular basis.

Oh, I still haven't heard from Sten-Erik yet about the DVD's. He lives in a different part of the country and I got the impression that his work gets the better part of his time. I'm gonna get in touch with him soon though. :)

[torashin]

In 2008 the kagamibiraki will take place 4th to 6th January. in Geneva :)
You can check the "Calendar"-section on the European Jodo Federation website (http://www.fej.ch/en/calendar.htm) for the dates of this and other camps. It is updated on a regular basis.

Hi again Fred

I meant is your seminar on the same time each year, not Kagamibiraki :)

Thanks anyway

[Fred27]

Hi again Fred

I meant is your seminar on the same time each year, not Kagamibiraki :)

Thanks anyway

Oh..hehe. My bad. :nervous: Well the Swedish Annual camp is in March..Other than that we havent nailed it down to a specific weekend for various reasons. We generally follow Fred Quants scheduele. Interested in joining us next year mate? :) I cant speak for Michael of course but I cant think of a reason why you cant train with us.

[torashin]

HI Fred

Possibly, not sure about flights though. You are a bit far off the beaten track from what I can see. Where's your nearest airport?

CU L8R

[Fred27]

HI Fred

Possibly, not sure about flights though. You are a bit far off the beaten track from what I can see. Where's your nearest airport?

CU L8R

Well we do have an airport in our city but the name isn't "Östersunds Airport" but "Åre/Östersunds Airport". So if you check the official SAS website (http://www.sas.se/Default.aspx?vst=true&epslanguage=EN) (in english) for instance it will be labelled: "Are Ostersund". :)

[torashin]

Cheers Fred

Check your PM's

CU L8R

[torashin]

Hi All

Anyway, sorry for hijacking the main thread, but does anyone have any comments regarding Honte/Hikiotoshi and ways of training to improve these gems :)

Personally I've noticed a difference between the FEJ & Seiteigata todo with the hips & use of the knees. Seitei tends to stay more upright. I think this must be due to it's ties to Kendo perhaps. Though I could be totally wrong here ;)

Cheers

[Marcus_P]

There is no 5th kyu in Seitei Jodo?


Nope. At least not in Australia. I am under the impression that kyu grades differ from country to country? For example, for Iai in Australia we have a 6 kyu system, whereas other countries follow a 3 kyu (or even less than that) system.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Kim Taylor]

Nope. At least not in Australia. I am under the impression that kyu grades differ from country to country? For example, for Iai in Australia we have a 6 kyu system, whereas other countries follow a 3 kyu (or even less than that) system.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

In Canada the CKF doesn't really say anything at all about kyu below 1kyu which is the first CKF/national grade level. Dojo are encouraged to do kyu grades but I've never seen any guidelines on where to start or how to grade it.

I believe the Ontario Kendo Federation used to issue kyu grades for Ontario dojo but that hasn't been done for many years to my knowledge.

I get the distinct impression that for most of the country if your club has lots of kids, you do kyu grades, but if you're all adults, grading tends to start at 1kyu. Can't do shodan until you're 14 so you put kyu grades in there instead.

Kim Taylor

[Aden]

Just realised this was in there...

As for requirements... If I'm not mistaken Kyu grades are by organisation, though Dan grades are pretty standard internationally?

In Australia:
Kyu Grades:
4th - first four tandoku
3rd - first eight tandoku + first kata
2nd - all twelve tandoku + kata 1, 2
1st - kata 1, 2, 3

Then Dan Grades:
Shodan: Kata 1-5
Nidan: Kata 2-6
Sandan: Kata 3-7

I believe Yondan changes to Kata 7-11, and Godan 8-12? I know it's not 4-8, it jumps, but I can't remember what number it jumps to. I think 7+...


The grading requirements for sandan are changing in Australia - I believe the new requirements as of January 08 nationals will be announced shortly and the current proposal is a change at third dan 3rd Dan to kata 5 to 9 from kata 3 to 7, which combined with the earlier change for 4th dan to kata 7 to 11 from kata 4 to 8 make it a much better progression than the original where there was a disconnect at 5th dan and you could not see the different levels doing the same kata.


Aden

[Marcus_P]

The grading requirements for sandan are changing in Australia - I believe the new requirements as of January 08 nationals will be announced shortly and the current proposal is a change at third dan 3rd Dan to kata 5 to 9 from kata 3 to 7, which combined with the earlier change for 4th dan to kata 7 to 11 from kata 4 to 8 make it a much better progression than the original where there was a disconnect at 5th dan and you could not see the different levels doing the same kata.


Argh! Thanks for telling me... Technically I have a Sandan grading in July... But we don't have the grading panel in Aus for that anyway, and I'm not sure I will be ready.

[Kim Taylor]

In Canada you can see the current jodo kata requirements here: http://kendo-canada.com/ckf_forms.htm

These are the Tokyo requirements since we've been passed over to the Tokyo sensei, previously we were under the Fukuoka prefecture rules which required koryu kata at 4dan. If I remember right, 6dan is to a national standard which requires koryu kata. Hmm, we don't have it listed, well never mind we've got a few years before we have to worry about it. Can't find it on the KIF or ZNKR sites either.

Hey Marcus if the Aus Fed will let you take it a couple months early we'll have a grading panel in Guelph in May. Dunno if it would be cheaper than going to Japan for you. ;-) We've graded folks up to 5dan jodo so far in Canada.

Kim Taylor

[Aden]

Similar here in Australia where koryu cuts in at 6th dan, 3 koryu and 3 ZNKR jo kata I think. But that is for the future :) we are a bit away from that since we have only graded to 4 so far (though there is a 5 over on the other side of the country graded in Japan, not sure when she will be eligible for 6).

Our technical advisor is from Sendai in the north.

Aden

[Newbie]

So Marcus, you still have to get AKR permission to grade even though you're in Seattle? Confusing...

Anyway, I'm fairly sure I've said this before but I like having to go through all the kyu grades. It makes sure that by the time you hit your shodan you really have a very good grounding and have been doing the basics and demonstrating them in front of judging panels for at least a couple years cos in Aus, we also have full grading panels for our kyu grades. It does slow down advancement but hey, who's in a hurry? and from what I've heard it leads to our kyu grades being very strong.

Getting back to the original topic though, someone was saying hiki has all the elements, etc. I can see your point but would liken hikiotoshi more to, say, kirikaeshi then, rather than men. Kirikaeshi for kendo was developed by.. bugger. Leant the book to someone. But anyway, developed as a kendo exercise because it had all the essential elements of kendo which is why if you stuff up kirikaeshi in a grading, you're stuffed.

To be honest, I rather like honte. Simple, feels good to do, you feel great when you get it right. Hikiotoshi on the other hand is the bane of my existance. Unless it's this Hikiotoshi: http://www.thecheezburgerfactory.com/completestore/Izbkyardsamur128389988754843750.jpg Though if she wakes me up early in the morning one more time I may revise that view....

[Fred27]

I too apologise for derailing the thread earlier :redface:. I'll reply to the PM tonight after practice, Mark.

Anyways, back to topic. One thing about hiki-otoshi: It's difficult to learn, but its powerful, versitile, defensive and offensive..The Hiki-otoshi kamae is the basis for launching MANY of the most dynamic techniques found in the SMR-system. This is very visible in the chudan kata-series. :)

Here is a clip made by Jaff Raji (of the FEJ) where he demonstrating the first chudan kata called Ichi Riki for his students. In here you can see teh hiki-otoshi kamae being utilized.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcGb2Nag2Ic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcGb2Nag2Ic)