Clean Cuts and Blocking "Waza"

[Sanjuro]

Hi-
I know that to score a point in a competition, the cut must have the proper zanshin and has to be "clean". My question regarding this is what a clean cut is. My present understanding of this term for kendo is that when you strike a valid target, the opponent's shinai cannot be touching you when it strikes. However, does a point count if you hit (actually make physical contact with the valid target) but your shinai strikes the opponents in the process? I am asking this question because I notice several "new" waza being done in the kumdo dojang I've recently started to practice in. Many of my sempai consistantly hold their shinai horizontal (pointing to the right) with their men when I attempt to cut do or men, which makes striking any target very hard. Any men cut will (whether it hits the men or not) strike the horizontal shinai, and they only have to angle their horizontal shinai down to deflect a do cut. A kote is a possible solution to this situation, but I want to know if there are any other ways to approach this type of strategy.

On another note, is evasive waza frowned upon in general? I recall reading a thread somewhere here that said it was, but no one at the dojang seems to have a problem with the blocking waza I've seen people do or the sometimes prolific headbending and I see during sparring sessions (which, I admit, are very effective at preventing me from getting any valid hits). I'm still relatively new in bogu, and my shiai experience is mostly limited to holding Chudan (trying not to be faked out) and attacking when I think there is an opening, or attacking at the onset of my opponent's attack (to prevent a point from being scored). I also use katsugi-waza occasionally, with varying degrees of success. In a nutshell, I do very basic kendo in shiai, but it is not faring very well against the different styles of kendoka I am facing.

So, basically, here is a review of my questions:

1. Does a point count if you hit (actually make physical contact with the valid target) but your shinai strikes the opponent's shinai in the process?

2. Is there a strategy to approach opponents who consistently use the "holding up shinai horizontally above men" strategy when you initiate an attack??

3. Is Evasive/Blocking waza frowned upon, and is it a good idea to use it?

Thanks for taking a look at this post, and I apologize if this topic has been worked to death before in another thread.

[KATSUJIN]

Hi. I have to tell u tat i go through this at almost every practice. So I will share with you my some-wat temporary solutions to this 'wazas'...

So far...i have not seen any point given in tat kind of scenario so I can't give comment..

For the horizontal block...practise more san-dan waza... becos they can't block forever...

For the head bending.... depends on ur kendo...but wat i do is i do nidan waza men-men for this..but my second men is sayu-men.

Evasive and blocking waza is normal in shiai... although I do it alot in ji-geiko... i am trying to counter instead of evading and blocking.. of course.. bad habits die hard :D

[Neil Gendzwill]

If your shinai brushes aside or blasts through the block and still makes strong contact, it can be a point. However the style of kendo you describe is not good kendo. Ultimately blocking and dodging is limiting. Strive to keep your own kendo straighter, and concentrate more on cutting your opponent rather than worrying about being cut yourself.

[Sanjuro]

Forgive my ignorance, but...Katsugin can you explain what you mean by nidan/sandan waza? I only know these words by their reference to the grades attained in kendo. I've also heard these terms floating around in the forums but isn't sure of their meaning in the context you are putting it in.

Anyone else willing to put in their .02$? :tongue:

[Raiza]

Sanjuro, I find it a bit odd that your dojo-mates would be using kasumi gamae (the shinai is held horizontally above their men) considering your level. It's usually used against jodan or nito and it certainly shouldn't be used against someone new to bogu. If they're falling for your katsugi waza, then it would seem that your opponents who are doing this are not too experienced and may be a sign of something less than good kendo (or kumdo!). Either that or you're a kendo prodigy and you're wiping the floor with your dojo-mates who have to use drastic measures to defend themselves. :)

As soon as you see someone start to lift up their arms for kasumi gamae, do kote from chudan. Either side is legal if the kote are above the chest (mune) or they're using some other kamae other than chudan. Nidan or sandan waza often includes doing a combination strike, like kote-men, kote-men-dou, debana or suriage techniques etc. What I think Katsujin means is that nidan or sandan waza are the ones examiners want to see if someone is going for the nidan or sandan exam. He's certainly free to correct me. :D

Chudan is an awesome kamae. Please stick with it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Nidan is two step waza (kote-men, kote-doh). Sandan is three step waza (kote-men-doh, kote-men-men).

[Sanjuro]

Raiza-

Haha...I'm not kendo prodigy. I consistently get my butt kicked by my sempai. They are very skilled kendoka, and I consider myself lucky that the kumdo club/dojang at my university is really good. My use of katsugi waza has "varying success", by which I meant it's success rate ranges from a few successful strikes to ones that made me look foolish because it didnt work.My dojo mates don't seem to discriminate who they "kasumi gamae (kamae?) against, as I've seen it being used a lot in practice sparring.

Neil-

Thanks again for clarifying and answering my questions, it is much appreciated.

[Andoy]

I agree. Chudan is THE most effective kamae. Well, atleast we should all be very consistent with it before exploring other kamae. I'm saying this because I'm only Ikkyu and it's the only kamae i use!

[taiwnezboi]

I don't think he is talking about a kamae, I think he is just describing how they block. I think he means that when they block, they lift the shinai from chudan and make it horizontal. I block like that too, and so do a lot of kendoka I have seen in videos.

[JSchmidt]

I agree. Chudan is THE most effective kamae.

How do you define effective?. In terms of scoring points?..developing your own kendo?.

Jakob

[Sanjuro]

taiwnezboi is right...sorry if some people misunderstood. The people I am talking about adopt the blocking position when attacked but start off in Chudan.

[taiwnezboi]

Sanjuro: about the block.. I think a lot of people block like that.. I was watching All Japan and World Kendo tournaments and jacked that block from the players.. lol.. anyways I don't think it has many weaknesses.. it's hard to penetrate it.. mostly if you're fast you can hit their head before they can raise the shinai in time to block.. or hit their kote when they're lifting for the block.. but you have to be fast.. or just fake the crap out of them.. =P

[cazoo]

correction: it's "senpai" with an "n" not "sempai" with "m"

and another thing, why are you asking about kumdo in a "world kendo forum"?!

the block you are discribing is used alto but not proper. u shouldnt think of blocking in the first place anyways. (though it may be considered "proper" in kumdo, ...i donno)

[nodachi]

I'll say it since someone is going to anyway...

kendo and kumdo are the same thing. that's why it is mentioned here all over the place.

[kendomushi]

It is senpai, but it is pronounced sempai..........

The blocking described is perfectly acceptable provided it leads to an attack. If it is just block and block and block, it is poor kendo. Evading, by moving your head or whatever is also fine, but if there is no attacking, again poor kendo.

[Kirin]

1. Does a point count if you hit (actually make physical contact with the valid target) but your shinai strikes the opponent's shinai in the process?

2. Is there a strategy to approach opponents who consistently use the "holding up shinai horizontally above men" strategy when you initiate an attack??

3. Is Evasive/Blocking waza frowned upon, and is it a good idea to use it?

1. first you must know 'yuukou datotsu' (must hit with proper part of shnai 'monouchi', must hit oppornents' proper part men, migi-men, hidari-men, kote, hidari-kote(only when in jo-dan or left arm is above head), tuki, migi-do, hidari-do, must have 'ki ken tai icchi' (your ki and sword and body must be in one motion)
so if all these factors are fullfilled, it is valid clean point. when your opponents' shinai touching you, kensen or kensaki must be 'live'. he must have true 'kisei' to avoid the score.

2. lately many ppl usese that methods to protect men, kote and do at sametime. (especially in japanese high school, even in university level)
This si for advanced students but the strategy is tsuki or hidari (gyaku) do.
also you can use hidari kote, since opponents left arm is above head.
For beginners, tuki and gyaku do is difficult and dangerous waza, I suggest taiatari, then hikiwaza.

3. evasive and blocking waza is only good when you have 'seme'
unless you have 'seme' or your intention is to block/evade and hit, it will not be clean. you must have intention to 'suriage' or 'kaeshi' front of you.
if you block or evade its too late....
so I guess there is no such a thing as evasive/blocking waza. instead it will be 'kaeshi' or 'suriage' waza. diffrence is you do not wait to block, you pull in opponent to strike you and you will react to it.


just my 2 cents,

[kanyil]

Great post by Kirin, as usual.

With respect to opponents who block with their shinai horizontal above their head (i.e. handle to the left, face and body forward, wide open do), the easiest way to get an ippon is migi-do. Renzoku (nidan, sandan) wazas are great if you can pull it off correctly.

Tsukis are hard and often times dangerous if used inappropriately. Another possible solution I have seen is to hit strong MEN-MEN very quickly (the first men blowing past their defenses and the second men connects), but this would be VERY hard.

With respect to opponents who block with their shinal down the right side of their body (i.e. handle up and to the left protecting the men, body of shinai protecting migi-kote, migi-do) it must be said that it's very difficult to score against them. As said by Kirin, gyaku-do or tsuki will work the best but they are hard.

The easiest way, I've been told, is to destabilize their kamae by a good tai-atari and then follow-up with an appropriate strike to the resulting opening(s), as persons blocking in such a fashion have a relatively higher center of gravity, and is therefore more susceptible to tai-ataris. Do not be surprised if they fly back if your tai-atari connects solidly and correctly.

[Halcyon]

The other problem with blocking horizonally like that -- and purely defensive blocking in general -- is that you lose a perfect opportunity to counter-attack. This is why the more experienced kendoka in the forum keep saying it's not "good kendo." You should be striving for debana timing. You get good at what you practice, so if you keep on blocking, you may get good at blocking, but you're neglecting a very fundamental aspect of kendo -- one strike, one win.

[kanyil]

If your shinai brushes aside or blasts through the block and still makes strong contact, it can be a point.
I recall reading a book that describes and shows a technique that does just that, but the technique involve bringing your left hand higher during the final part of the strike (thereby resulting in the kensen travelling further downwards).

Would this technique be considered "good kendo"?

[Hai_hai]

So, basically, here is a review of my questions:

1. Does a point count if you hit (actually make physical contact with the valid target) but your shinai strikes the opponent's shinai in the process?

2. Is there a strategy to approach opponents who consistently use the "holding up shinai horizontally above men" strategy when you initiate an attack??

3. Is Evasive/Blocking waza frowned upon, and is it a good idea to use it?

Thanks for taking a look at this post, and I apologize if this topic has been worked to before in another thread.
Clean cuts? Argh matey... a sharp shinai is a safe shinai.
First, I sharpen me shinai to a razor sharp edge... croikey... I almost cut me finger off.
Second, cut straight down.
Third, remove the skin and cut off the flanks. Rub in some kosher salt, black pepper and spices.
Fourth, roast over an open fire on a spit.