proper grip for shinai doing men strike

[turboyoshi]

So this past saturday, sensei mentioned a couple times I should be keeping my grip more relaxed, like there should be a feeling as if I'm going to throw my shinai forward. (what?! those blisters are a sign of my massive manliness!)

OK so seriously, I've been working on this and now when I do men strikes, my right hand wants to slide down the tsuka during the strike. Am I taking the relaxed bit too far?

Yes, I could ask my sensei but I'd rather not have sensei think I'm stupid in addition to being slow and incompetent. :laugh:
Besides, I won't see her again until Saturday and was hoping for a quick answer so I don't form a bad habit.
Oh yeah, I still hate making noise, I think I'm gonna perfect the silent kiai. :jaguar:

sean

[Kenzan]

Yes, I could ask my sensei but I'd rather not have sensei think I'm stupid in addition to being slow and incompetent. :laugh:
sean

Since know one here can see your Kendo, and therefore no one can really advise you properly, I suggest you throw away your pride and ask your Sensei anyway.

:glasses:

[Neil Gendzwill]

It really is the kind of thing we need to show you in person. Ask your sensei.

[MikeW]

Well none of the instructors at GKA will think badly of you for asking. Although if you really try to perfect a silent kiai they may be somewhat dismayed with you. ;)

[yoda-waza]

So this past saturday, sensei mentioned a couple times I should be keeping my grip more relaxed, like there should be a feeling as if I'm going to throw my shinai forward. (what?! those blisters are a sign of my massive manliness!)

OK so seriously, I've been working on this and now when I do men strikes, my right hand wants to slide down the tsuka during the strike. Am I taking the relaxed bit too far?

Yes, I could ask my sensei but I'd rather not have sensei think I'm stupid in addition to being slow and incompetent. :laugh:
Besides, I won't see her again until Saturday and was hoping for a quick answer so I don't form a bad habit.
Oh yeah, I still hate making noise, I think I'm gonna perfect the silent kiai.

sean

I know what your sensei is saying (I also describe it as a two-handed, forward-throw motion) but your right hand should definitely not be sliding. Ask her to elaborate. She may explain both wrists need to be limber and your right hand in particular not locked in a death-grip on the shinai during the swing. The grip of the hands is critical for a correct cut so get the details through your sensei - don't belittle yourself, just ask. As for making noise, that's not the purpose of kiai as you know. You'll find a way to overcome silence like everyone else.

[kartoffelngeist]

To drag the thread off topic, silent kiai is perfectly possible, it's just easier with noise. That's not the kendo way though, so you'll just have to get used to making noise... ;)

[turboyoshi]

Thanks guys, that helps. I'm really enjoying the kendo practice but since I tend to make sure I do at least a little bit every day, I didn't want to start a bad habit and have sensei correct me again in the next class.

re: the kiai, I know it's more than just noise but it's the noise part that I have the most trouble with. Even after doing karate for about 14 yrs, I never truly got comfortable with the kiai. Mainly because I hate being the center of attention. So, doing anything that specifically draws attention to me is just against my nature.
How about I roar like a moonbeam? :jaguar: :laugh:

In karate I could get away with being mostly quiet because kata only have 1-2 kiai in them but kendo is really forcing me to deal with this bit of insecurity. In spite of that, I'm really enjoying myself so I'm sure this will be just a minor obstacle, I shall crush in due time. Then you will all be saying "shut up already, sheesh!"
:jaguar:
(oh yeah look what you created)

sean

[cooleric06]

well yea, cant say anythin since i dont see it lol , nah but yea ask your sensei , every dojo has there different style.

[LarsCW]

Sean,

If you don't have a proper kiai you can't achieve ki ken tai ichi which is required to score.

Gambatte kudosai on your journey into learning more kendo.

[lucy]

Mainly because I hate being the center of attention. So, doing anything that specifically draws attention to me is just against my nature.


You might notice that during practise the silent ones are those drawing attention to themselves... Not the loud ones. :)

I had the same trouble at first and then I was told on here to kiai while being alone, in the car for example. That really helped me after the first awkward attempts.

[dwez]

Oh yeah, I still hate making noise, I think I'm gonna perfect the silent kiai.

As you're a '99th kyu' might I point out that the only thing you definitely can do is make noise. No one other than another beginner is going to feel the least trepidation facing you at this stage, the only way you can win is by having the biggest, loudest and longest kiai in the club. Additionally it actually will make you feel less like a beginner if you do, like you're one of the guys because they don't feel embarrased, so why should you.

To put another spin on it when trying to effect ki ken tai ichi, where mind body and spirit all strike at once, well that's never going to happen for you at this stage so getting a good kiai will help and certainly help to mask any mis-timings of those components. As so many people are focussing on this aspect of your thread you should certainly realise hot important it is.

[Ignatz]

(what?! those blisters are a sign of my massive manliness!)

Ask Barr sensei to show you her hands.


OK so seriously, I've been working on this and now when I do men strikes, my right hand wants to slide down the tsuka during the strike. Am I taking the relaxed bit too far?
There comes a time when you tighten up, at the moment of impact. You will see this often in your kendo career, I call it "the dialectic of kendo". You go from one extreme to another then find a mid point that become your new starting point. You are always adjusting and correcting andd polishing until after 20 or 30 years you find "your kendo".


Yes, I could ask my sensei but I'd rather not have sensei think I'm stupid in addition to being slow and incompetent. :laugh:
Don't worry, she already knows


Besides, I won't see her again until Saturday and was hoping for a quick answer so I don't form a bad habit.
Kendo takes a lifetime to learn. What is the rush?


Oh yeah, I still hate making noise, I think I'm gonna perfect the silent kiai.
That is a good goal but practice it at home for at least 20 years before you try it in the dojo. Also consider that the kia helps build stamina and lung capacity.

[Fonsz]

Kendo takes a lifetime to learn. What is the rush?



Now you're telling me! Alright I'll take it slow from now on.:eek:

[enkorat]

...Mainly because I hate being the center of attention. So, doing anything that specifically draws attention to me is just against my nature....

...kendo is really forcing me to deal with this bit of insecurity....



Ah yes, I think Kendo has a very unique way of casting all of ones insecurities in a harsh glaring light right away. It comes through the physical kendo in a number of ways. This is a major part of training, after all if you look at the four poisons that cause defeat in kendo the first two are Fear and Doubt, and what is "insecurity" than the combination of fear and doubt?

Its very challenging to overcome ones ingrained personality habits, probably much more so than technical kendo. Technical kendo is pretty easy actually, I find that my own personality foibles are taking much longer to overcome.

I think perhaps, the best way for you to think about it is when you are in a match or fighting and definately grading, you want very much to be the center of attention. You want the judges to be looking at you, you want the referees to be paying you more attention than your opponent. You want the judges to go "oh, this is promising, I should look closely" rather than "oh the other candidate is drawing my attention", and with the refs, you want the same thing, you want them to be watching you more closely, no? Even if they're "supposed" to be splitting attention equally between you and your opponent, if they're watching you when you go for strike, you're incrementally more likely to score.

Also, a kiai like the shinai is a tool and a weapon. A hachidan sensei who teaches in this area often tells us "even a beginner can beat a sensei with kiai". It is just as much a method of establishing control and dominance over a situation (fight) as the shinai is...

Good luck!

[turboyoshi]

Also, a kiai like the shinai is a tool and a weapon.


That is probably the most productive way for me to think about kiai at this point.



I had the same trouble at first and then I was told on here to kiai while being alone, in the car for example.


Yes, yes, as if my driving doesn't scare people enough, this will be a good addition to my repertoire. :smiley:

Arigato all. I knew this bit was important but figured it would just come in it's own good time. I realize now that this really is just my way of avoiding an uncomfortable issue. I am now determined to devote some extra work on just this aspect of myself.

sean

[sminch]

lucy beat me to it... failing to give a hearty kiai is going to attract more attention than screaming your lungs out. go nuts.

sminch

[dwez]

Actually I got a new kiai last night. My oldest one is a bit of a barking yelp. Then I developed a new higher pitched scream after watching a few too many Japanese matches. It allowed me to extend my kiai and helped with more ni-dan, san-dan waza. Last night this bellow just came right out of my diaphragm with no effort whatsoever, in fact it took me by surprise how loud and efficient it was. To be honest it's probably the only 'true' kiai out of the three but it's another step forward. I love kiai-ing, you should too, we could start a club with badges and membership cards.

[monchichi]

The kiai-reluctance thing is certainly something everybody has to go through when you begin. You will get a better kiai has your kendo will improve. More confidence in your technic brings confidence in your kiai. The kiai will not be an issue (i mean technically it will have to improve but you won t be ashamed of it anymore) when you will use the armor for a while.

I give my personal trick for kiai. I personaly (not sure it's the way it means to be) made my kiai a message. If you see the kiai a way to say to your opponent (even invisible like in suburi) "i'm here and i will put all my strenght to defeat you" it's more easy to use it. I think one reason we feel ashamed about kiai it's we are afraid to be interpreted like "i shout to be the center of the attention because i know i'm the best". Or this is not what means the kiai. Try to think it as an humble but courageous way to say "i'm here, even if my kendo is crap i will do my best to overcome you" and you will be able to shout very loud even against 8 dan senseis.:smoker:

[Raindrop]

Since most of my training at the moment focusses on hand position and men strikes, I kind of understand what your sensei was saying. I've only been doing Kendo for 2 months now but our senseis are quite good at explaining so I'm just gonna repeat what I have been taught so far. Keep in mind I might be explaining it all wrong since I cannot show you and also you will need to ask a sempai (believe me, they won't mind, I ask mine so much each week and they're still nice to me ^_^ )

Your right hand should definately not move because the moment of the impact should be a halt. Like a stop. That's the moment your grip should be the tightest. It's so that if you miss your shinai doesn't go all the way down to tare level, you know? Even if you miss, it should still be face level of your opponent. Also if you have the feeling your right hand is letting go or moving, check out if you left hand is still at the level of your solar plexus and not too high. I'm being taught that your right arm should be shoulder level and left hand should be solar plexus level with a fist size in between.

Our senseis explain a menstrike like throwing a fishing rod. Last practice I even heard this really good analogy, that it should be as if your shinai is a hollow pipe and in the handle you have a glass marble and the motion of your strike propells the marble inside, all the way to the tip and when it hits the tip, you stop. I dunno if that makes any sense, but it gave me the "NOW I get it!" moment.

About kiai, I don't know what to tell you since I'm used to kiai-ing from Karate. It's only partially about making noise (intimidating your opponent and showing spirit) it's also about correct breathing and the state of your body at the moment of your strike. (as others have mentioned, see "ki-ken-tai-ichi" ). In other sport words you could call it "in the zone" you know? :)

I hope I didn't explain anything wrong there and that my newbie view on this isn't a total waste. From experience I find it sometimes really helpful if a fellow newbie tells me how they understood something because it brings it more down to my level.

So if I said something wrong there, someone please correct me. Other than that I hope it helped a little :)