A very good video of a maki otoshi

[Fred27]

A wise dude prolly once said that you can learn about important things in sources you didn't consider....or something like that. :D

Anyways, the technique Maki otoshi which is found in Jodo is one of the more peculiar and difficult to learn.. Here, in a video-clip I found somewhere, you see a man who makes Maki otoshi look easy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAtbfb9i9Mg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAtbfb9i9Mg)

What makes this clip different from other jodo-clips is that this man, Chiba Kazuo, is actually a 8th Dan Aikikai (aikido). Although he performs the maki otoshi with a sword against another sword the principles and execution are mostly the same...And in my opinion this man is an artist! I've never seen a maki otoshi performed this well before.

Take a look at his body when he forces the sword down. You can see the great power and his body barely move an inch..He is perfectly relaxed at all times. This guy is my new hero :D

[tango]

bah. nevermind.

[torashin]

bah. nevermind.

Not sure about this comment:confused2 You have something better to add perhaps? I noticed you're Kendoka. Perhaps you have a Kendo slant on it. Or perhaps you might do Iai and use a sword perhaps :D

Cheers

[tango]

I said originally, "that's not maki-otoshi" but then realized this was in the jodo forum, which I don't pay any attention to...
So didn't feel like maybe wading into a more in-depth discussion on the topic.

but in any case,

that's not maki-otoshi.
at least by kendo standards. can't say as far as iaido is concerned... and I don't see that this has anything to do with jodo either.
you've got two aikido guys using bokken.... but what he's demonstrating is not maki-otoshi.

[torashin]

that's not maki-otoshi.
at least by kendo standards. can't say as far as iaido is concerned... and I don't see that this has anything to do with jodo either.
you've got two aikido guys using bokken.... but what he's demonstrating is not maki-otoshi.

I think Fred points was it's looks like a good version of Maki-otoshi as we see it from Jodo. Re your quote "that's not maki-otoshi. at least by kendo standards". What does Maki-otoshi look like in Kendo? Do you have a link or something?

I think any differences might have something to do with the actual translation itself. I've seen different versions of Tsuki Komi & Iai version & a Kukishinden Ryu version. Who's to say which one is the right one.

One thing I can say is that conceptually there's probably not a lot in it.

Hope this helps friend :)

Cheers

[Martch]

To hopefully clear up this misunderstanding, maki otoshi is a 'rolling throw' technique in both kendo and jodo (and I think aikido?). However they are executed very differently; in Jodo the catch and throw is similar to the video above, in Kendo you rotate your shinai in an anticlockwise (usually) direction around the opponent's shinai, whilst applying seme. Then you hit him on the head.

[torashin]

Cheers Martin :)

[tango]

However they are executed very differently; in Jodo the catch and throw is similar to the video above, in Kendo you rotate your shinai in an anticlockwise (usually) direction around the opponent's shinai, whilst applying seme.

... right. I thought maybe they were doing what they would consider maki-otoshi, and knowing that that's not what it is/looks like in kendo, I just thought "nevermind"...

I wasn't trying to be snarky.. just changing my mind to comment...
no big whoop.

[Fred27]

The name Maki otoshi (or makiotoshi) is by no means copyrighted or limited to kendo or jodo or any other MA. :) In fact if you were to compare the names of techniques & Kata side by side of most major martial arts you'd find plenty matches.

Here is a Kendo Maki otoshi (at least according to the vids description):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkrGmQVF9OA

Aikido maki otoshi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nLkFcxfMx4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nLkFcxfMx4)

Another Aikido maki otoshi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpFzASrVWMQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpFzASrVWMQ)

Unfortunetly I couldn't find a vid showing (only) a maki otoshi from Jodo, but I did found clips of a kata which includes Maki otoshi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_wv6JdY2lI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_wv6JdY2lI)
The maki otoshi begins at index 00:10 and is in this kata executed rapidly.

Here is another one that starts at time index 00:15:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vw2O2PgG-c

[Marcus_P]

There's a Naginata Maki-otoshi as well, I can't remember if it's more similar to the Jodo or Kendo maki...

[tango]

and this is precisely why I changed my mind to comment originally. i don't think anybody, much less me, is trying to say that maki-otoshi is some copyrighted terminology, exclusive only to kendo. maybe we're having a communication problem here.

if one is to provide this video for purposes of saying "here's a cool example of maki-otoshi for KENDO" .. then it doesn't make sense, because that's not "kendo maki-otoshi"....

of course, the purpose of the thread/video was to say "this is interesting for JODO" ... so it makes even less sense for me to give a comment that "this is not 'kendo' maki-otoshi"... ..AGAIN, this is why I edited my own original comment to "nevermind"

Unfortunately, I just keep replying in this thread, but I'll be leaving it now.

[Martch]

and this is precisely why I changed my mind to comment originally. i don't think anybody, much less me, is trying to say that maki-otoshi is some copyrighted terminology, exclusive only to kendo. maybe we're having a communication problem here.


I think you inadvertently started a very interesting thread, it was clear you weren't being difficult. No "big whoop" taken.

So to continue this topic, given that there are different interpretations of maki otoshi, what is the common link? Is it that feeling of rolling/absorbing, with a circular physical motion? When I use maki otoshi in kendo it's a definite attacking shikake waza used to break someone with a weak (or too rigid) centre, usually only works against less experienced people. In jodo it's a definite counter attack move, turning tachi's attack away and stepping in...so more an oji waza. Been a long time since I did any aikido but maybe someone can explain more of what's going on in those aiki clips.

Is that kendo clip you posted not more of an uchi otoshi i.e a single downward strike rather than a circular movement?

[torashin]

Interesting clips :)

I've seen the Aiki technique before but didn't know it's name.

Re the Kendo version. I can't help but think that in theory it looks like the same technique as the Jodo one but, I would call them both Henka's if anything. I use the word Henka, because to me it means variation. I.e the same but different :smiley:

Cheers

[Roger Lee]

Unfortunetly I couldn't find a vid showing (only) a maki otoshi from Jodo, but I did found clips of a kata which includes Maki otoshi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_wv6JdY2lI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_wv6JdY2lI)
The maki otoshi begins at index 00:10 and is in this kata executed rapidly.
The example shown in Tachi Otoshi no midare is not Maki Otoshi but Uchi Otoshi.

[Aden]

One good thing about jodo makiotoshi is that it is the only jo technique I have ever pulled off successfully in kendo prompting the sensei I was doing jigeiko with to say 'what the hell was that' when I hit him on the head :) one of those things that can only work once.....

As for doing it jo style with sword we demonstrate it bokken on bokken so you can see the hasuji move as the stick turns coming back in and turns back again for the down sweep - and as I recall in SMR there is a shoto makiotoshi from reinforced block against bokken in inuchi.

[Aden]

[QUOTE=Aden;296432 inuchi.[/QUOTE]

hmm that would be inchu 咽中 another total brain fart by Aden there..

Aden

[Newbie]

How on earth did I miss this thread for so long?!


Anyways, the technique Maki otoshi which is found in Jodo is one of the more peculiar and difficult to learn..

Really? Why? I don't have that much problem with makiotoshi. I do find the tandoku more difficult than the sotei - some are just like that. But never thought of it as peculiar and difficult, unless I'm missing something..

I liked that video. Never considered using maki sword on sword. But I noticed that the opponent is forced down, where we're always told to throw the opponenent backwards (hopefully swinging him around in the process).

[Fred27]

How on earth did I miss this thread for so long?!
Really? Why? I don't have that much problem with makiotoshi. I do find the tandoku more difficult than the sotei - some are just like that. But never thought of it as peculiar and difficult, unless I'm missing something..


Hehe, well if you have mastered the maki otoshi then I'm envious :). This is the one technique that I find most difficult to apply properly in both kihon and kata. The word "peculiar" has been used by both my own sensei and Pascal Krieger to describe this technique. In fact I think thats what he said when he first taught me the technique. I got the impression that the original thought was that maki otoshi is an unorthodox technique in general.



I liked that video. Never considered using maki sword on sword. But I noticed that the opponent is forced down, where we're always told to throw the opponenent backwards (hopefully swinging him around in the process).

As I said, the clip does not show an identical Maki otoshi, but the principle is the same and he demonstrates it beautifully. :) I honestly wish I could be as relaxed as him and as stabile when performing my own maki otoshi.

[Newbie]

BIG difference with "not much of a problem" and "mastered" ;) I just don't have as many problems with it as, say hikiotoshi. Or Hikiotoshi, for that matter, seeing as she's taken to not pulling my kimono down but jumping up and velcroing to it.

[torashin]

seeing as she's taken to not pulling my kimono down but jumping up and velcroing to it.

Did I miss something !!!! or is there more to this technique than I've seen so far :wink:

Cheers

[Newbie]

A very strange version of jodo: http://www.thecheezburgerfactory.com/completestore/Izbkyardsamur128389988754843750.jpg

Seriously though - I find with makiotoshi, more than the other techniques, that less is more. The less power you put into it, the more effective it is. I used to put so much into throwing that sword backwards, but when I just put almost nothing behind it and let it happen, it worked so much better and more consistently. Does everyone else find this, too?

[Fred27]

A very strange version of jodo: http://www.thecheezburgerfactory.com/completestore/Izbkyardsamur128389988754843750.jpg

Seriously though - I find with makiotoshi, more than the other techniques, that less is more. The less power you put into it, the more effective it is. I used to put so much into throwing that sword backwards, but when I just put almost nothing behind it and let it happen, it worked so much better and more consistently. Does everyone else find this, too?

Not sure bout everyone else ;), but yes I agree. My own trouble with Maki otoshi, (which I guess that MOST people have sooner or later), is using my left hand to provide the power instead of the right one.