Self respect

[Kagerou]

Hey all,

I've noticed this a lot in some recent posts. There are so many people who are bagging on themselves and saying how much they suck because whatever-dan just kicked their ass. I can understand having a sense of humility but really people, take some pride in what you've done and are doing!

Everyone here has done two very difficult things that 99% of the population will never do.

1) You walked into the dojo
2) YOU STAYED

Sure you're not the best and yes that Hachidan sensei will kick your ass but you have to take some pride in what you do or you'll never get anywhere. They don't expect you as an ikkyu to break their kamai, they want you to push yourself and at the end of the day learn something and be happy about it. That's the reason they aren't going to acknowledge your degote or speedy kote strike because they know you can do that.

I don't know. Maybe some people are trying to show how humble they really are. Do any of you see it as a game of "I can out-humble" you? Don't bother answering that because I know everyone will say no whether they are being truthful or not.

Think about it for yourselves and decide if what you've done in your kendo career is worthy of a little bit pride.

[xvikingx]

I am somebody.

[Draglon]

Hell yeah, I'm 5th Kyu and I could beat any 8th Dan!
(as long as said 8th Dan was limbless... and Comatose...)

[Big One]

Who am I? Oh yeah.... Wait a minute, Who am I?

[skilled]

Who am I? Oh yeah.... Wait a minute, Who am I?

IM SPIDERMAN XD

[michaelm]

I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Smalley).

[Kenzan]

I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Smalley).

Beat me to it!
:D

[xvikingx]

I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Smalley).

Nice! That was a solid bit.

[Bokushingu]

it's not really trying to out humble each other; it's facing and accepting the truth. There's a San dan in my club that just made yon dan. He said something to me a few months ago after a internal dojo squabble which originated out of swelling egos...He said, "You have to allways believe you are not good enough or never be fully satisfied with your performance otherwise you won't thrive to be better."

I have seen some beginners that keiko with a sensei, land a kote or men & think that they dominated that sensei when that totally wasn't the case.

during shiai, it is required to be brave and have confidence; however in the dojo, Humility is required to grow.

[Kagerou]

it's not really trying to out humble each other; it's facing and accepting the truth. There's a San dan in my club that just made yon dan. He said something to me a few months ago after a internal dojo squabble which originated out of swelling egos...He said, "You have to allways believe you are not good enough or never be fully satisfied with your performance otherwise you won't thrive to be better."

I have seen some beginners that keiko with a sensei, land a kote or men & think that they dominated that sensei when that totally wasn't the case.

during shiai, it is required to be brave and have confidence; however in the dojo, Humility is required to grow.

You'll note that I never said humility was a bad thing. Being able to listen to someone and accept their help is part of being wise. Falling into self pity is foolish, or worse, using your extreme humility to show others you're a better student is just arrogant.

You said you've seen beginners think they dominated a sensei. Maybe that's because they're beginners and they only see that one brilliant kote they got. To them it's a major achievement. I also guarantee you that the sensei see them showboating after and whomps them the next round. It's not easy being a teacher, sometimes you have to let people think they're better than you before you can show them they're not.

I do agree that extreme egos are bad but it's ok to have an ego. It's what lets you stand infront of that sensei and say "this time you're mine" and throw your best at them.

[Bokushingu]

You'll note that I never said humility was a bad thing. Being able to listen to someone and accept their help is part of being wise. Falling into self pity is foolish, or worse, using your extreme humility to show others you're a better student is just arrogant

I think with a lot of people that they are just happy to have be given an oppertunity to play & learn from a high ranking Sensei or experienced Kenshi. They feel very good that a sensei of high level keiko'd with them. I know with me and many others when a sensei lands a strike I'm very happy to have recieved that strike--you learned something.

I don't know...I can only speak for me & whenever I move to a sensei or high level sempai line, my intentions is not to defeat them but to try to perform the best that I can: try to throw the best men or Kote with zanshin & spirit & 100% effort. even when i play with kohai, my goal is not to beat them but to perform correct kendo & making sure they are also.

I understand what you are trying to say, but i think with most beginners that get to play with a sensei, they are just honored & want to show respect & appreciation.

when you go to shiai/taikai then you should be thinking, "i want to win!"

[Kagerou]

I think with a lot of people that they are just happy to have be given an oppertunity to play & learn from a high ranking Sensei or experienced Kenshi. They feel very good that a sensei of high level keiko'd with them. I know with me and many others when a sensei lands a strike I'm very happy to have recieved that strike--you learned something.

I don't know...I can only speak for me & whenever I move to a sensei or high level sempai line, my intentions is not to defeat them but to try to perform the best that I can: try to throw the best men or Kote with zanshin & spirit & 100% effort. even when i play with kohai, my goal is not to beat them but to perform correct kendo & making sure they are also.

I understand what you are trying to say, but i think with most beginners that get to play with a sensei, they are just honored & want to show respect & appreciation.

when you go to shiai/taikai then you should be thinking, "i want to win!"

I understand that and I'll be the first to admit that I run to my sensei as soon as he gets his kote on and walks up to the line. His teaching skills are the reason I chose that dojo. Showing your appreciation is one thing. Groveling ala Waynes world "We're not worthy" is something else.

[Bokushingu]

I understand that and I'll be the first to admit that I run to my sensei as soon as he gets his kote on and walks up to the line. His teaching skills are the reason I chose that dojo. Showing your appreciation is one thing. Groveling ala Waynes world "We're not worthy" is something else.


I don't know...In my eyes it doesn't seem like they are groveling. Groveling, IMHO, has a fear flavor to it. When I here that word it puts the picture of someone curled up in a corner trembeling. I also don't believe that they are expressing that they aren't worthy; I believe they just feel the distance in levels between them and the sensei. It is nice to know you are learning from somone that has journeyed many miles past where you are now.

Could you imagine what it would be like if you didn't feel any difference in skill & experience from your sensei? you would be dealing with a MCDojo sensei or you would be clueless.

[nodachi]

In addition to understanding that we have a lot to learn regardless of what dan we are, there are other elements that contribute to this over use of being humble. It is a cultural element that people pick up from the Japanese-ness of kendo. For example, having lived in Japan and then moving back home, I find that I apologize a LOT more than I need to. Just in terms of basic speech patterns in Japanese, there is a need to sort of apologize or put yourself down before stating your own opinion or what not. I don't do it on purpose, but it just happens. You learn these speech patterns through experience or through language lessons, but then they become a part of you and it's a habit that's difficult to break sometimes. Vague example, but the point is that culturally there is an inherent part of the Japanese/kendo culture that instills potentially excessive humbleness to avoid being rude. Same thing with basic Japanese speaking, same thing with how we talk about kendo. People who are observant of their teachers and Japanese kendo buddies will probably see the same thing from these others and thus we are frequently picking up an unintentional, but learned behavior.

[Bokushingu]

hmm do they apologize much in Japan? cause most of the japanese i know through my wife don't apologize much at all. in fact getting my wife to apologize is like pulling teeth. She was telling me that her mother stopped talking to her brother for over 30 years due to a disagreement. My wife got into a disagreement with a friend over the time to move a sofa & they haven't spoken in 6 years--lol. I know whenever I'm right she would never admit it. I do know that she is very humble about her work. And her friends are extremely humble whenever they recieve compliments.

[Masahiro]

I don't mean to ruin the "love-e, dove-e, fuzzy" feeling of this "let's boost our selve esteem" thread. ..but seriously, have you seen some of the "kendo" videos on youtube? people (not all) but some are really really bad at kendo. it maybe that some are being overly polite, but others... well, i'll leave it at that.

[ShinKenshi]

I agree that there are some vids out there of some kenshi who aren't that great and I also agree that there are definitely those who are shortsighted in that they think they're the best thing since sliced bread after scoring a kote on their sensei. Personally, I try to ignore those individuals and focus on developing my own skills.

I think a line needs to be drawn between low self esteem and being humble though. While some may openly say that they aren't that good, as long as they aren't beating themselves up over it, then what harm is there in recognizing your own weaknesses? I for one would love to get my arse handed to me on a silver platter by a hachidan sensei because I'd really see what I need to work on and I could get some great instruction on how to effectively try to imrove. Furthermore it pushes me to try harder and to dig deeper to step it up. In short, it's ok to be humble but don't beat yourself up about it.

[Kenzan]

I don't know. Maybe some people are trying to show how humble they really are. Do any of you see it as a game of "I can out-humble" you? Don't bother answering that because I know everyone will say no whether they are being truthful or not.





Showing your appreciation is one thing. Groveling ala Waynes world "We're not worthy" is something else.

I'm a bit confused by what exactly you are referring to.
Could you perhaps provide a more succinct example?
Granted, I'm new, but I've not seen this behavior yet.


I find that I apologize a LOT more than I need to. Just in terms of basic speech patterns in Japanese, there is a need to sort of apologize or put yourself down before stating your own opinion or what not. I don't do it on purpose, but it just happens.


I know exactly what you mean.
One of the things I cannot reconcile is that my fellow countrymen almost universally regard politeness, care of other's feelings, and humility as a sign of lack of confidence or even weakness.
Of course, they soon learn the truth of it if they try to press an advantage, however I find it is frustrating non the less, Many people have said to me that I should be less polite or humble when dealing with others locally, however it is something I want ingrained in my nature. In fact, ironically, I take self-pride in my attempts to be as polite as I can. (Although I'm not always successful.) I see it as a mark of character rather than a liability. In fact, I'd go so far as to say when my self-confidence wanes, so does my "aisatsu."
In any case, I think you can rest easy, because last time I checked, Humility was still a human virtue.
:)



People who are observant of their teachers and Japanese kendo buddies will probably see the same thing from these others and thus we are frequently picking up an unintentional, but learned behavior.

I see this more as a result of declining emphasis on politeness practice especially Western society. Because we are a culture primarily focused with material goods and money, there seems to be a tremendous impetuous to compete with others, and the ethic that appears to drive this competition is to smash the other guy, generally by bad-mouthing and intimidating him or her or by clearly showing by action that you intend to dominate them. This is most apparent in the American Corporate world. Dog eat dog leaves little opportunity for formality, and our popular culture tends to reinforce this.
Whenever I feel that being humble or polite is unique to Japan, all I need to do is visit places where people who value such things congregate, such as an Art Museum, A Conservatory, a Kendo Dojo or even an old age home to name just a few. So I think it isn't just a culture thing, I think it's a human thing. (That we choose to forget.) :)



I don't mean to ruin the "love-e, dove-e, fuzzy" feeling of this "let's boost our selve esteem" thread. ..but seriously, have you seen some of the "kendo" videos on youtube? people (not all) but some are really really bad at kendo. it maybe that some are being overly polite, but others... well, i'll leave it at that.

I assume this means you'll be posting some videos of your own so we can be awed and amazed by you magnificent Kendo. Yes?

[Oroshi]

Ok, I'm going to ramble a bit here.


Humility and self-confidence are in no way mutually exclusive. (Even though I don't think this is what you're saying, it may be what some people think).

My sensei is always telling me - be confident! (自信を持って！). But no one ever tells me to be arrogant (横柄にして！)!

Being polite and humble is a virtue not just in Japan but also here in the UK, and I imagine in most countries. There's no need to go over the top, sure, but it is something I personally strive for, and something I respect in other people. The teachers I respect most - and from whom I've received the best instruction - have all been very humble individuals (and I'm referring to European teachers as well as Japanese). They are confident in their own ability, but at the same time they recognise their limitations (even if I can't see them!).

When talking about budo, one way of showing you are bearing your limitations in mind is to qualify your posts with something like "I'm only shodan, but...." I don't feel this kind of thing is out of place at all.

On the other hand, confidence is essential. I've learnt never to say "I can't." Instead I now think "I'll get this. I just need to keep working at it."


Bleh. I hope that made sense.

[futabachan]

IM SPIDERMAN XD

I am Spartacus.

[Kagerou]

hmm do they apologize much in Japan? cause most of the japanese i know through my wife don't apologize much at all. in fact getting my wife to apologize is like pulling teeth. She was telling me that her mother stopped talking to her brother for over 30 years due to a disagreement. My wife got into a disagreement with a friend over the time to move a sofa & they haven't spoken in 6 years--lol. I know whenever I'm right she would never admit it. I do know that she is very humble about her work. And her friends are extremely humble whenever they recieve compliments.

Family is different. Towards strangers being polite is very important. People apologize all the time. It is part of their culture. Having said that, I've never noticed anyone talking about how bad they got whooped after class. Everyone just says how hot it is and how many beers they're going to go drink when they get home. If anything you sometimes get a little bragging about how many times people went up to keiko. Sometimes they compliment others on a match they had but no personal defacement.

[Kagerou]

Ok, I'm going to ramble a bit here.


Humility and self-confidence are in no way mutually exclusive. (Even though I don't think this is what you're saying, it may be what some people think).

My sensei is always telling me - be confident! (自信を持って！). But no one ever tells me to be arrogant (横柄にして！)!

Being polite and humble is a virtue not just in Japan but also here in the UK, and I imagine in most countries. There's no need to go over the top, sure, but it is something I personally strive for, and something I respect in other people. The teachers I respect most - and from whom I've received the best instruction - have all been very humble individuals (and I'm referring to European teachers as well as Japanese). They are confident in their own ability, but at the same time they recognise their limitations (even if I can't see them!).

When talking about budo, one way of showing you are bearing your limitations in mind is to qualify your posts with something like "I'm only shodan, but...." I don't feel this kind of thing is out of place at all.

On the other hand, confidence is essential. I've learnt never to say "I can't." Instead I now think "I'll get this. I just need to keep working at it."


Bleh. I hope that made sense.

It did make sense and I agree with you. You have to recognise your limits and show humility. You also have to be confident, but there is a point when either one becomes greater than it should and then it's a problem. I've seen a lot of good martial artists slip into a state of depression because they think they are crap because they got beat by someone higher ranking than them. A few have even quit because of it. Bloated egos do much the same thing. People think they are better than the dojo and go off to create their own style.

[nodachi]

hmm do they apologize much in Japan? cause most of the japanese i know through my wife don't apologize much at all. in fact getting my wife to apologize is like pulling teeth. She was telling me that her mother stopped talking to her brother for over 30 years due to a disagreement. My wife got into a disagreement with a friend over the time to move a sofa & they haven't spoken in 6 years--lol. I know whenever I'm right she would never admit it. I do know that she is very humble about her work. And her friends are extremely humble whenever they recieve compliments.

Whether they mean it or not is another story, but the speech patterns often require an apology or put down of yourself to make it more polite. Not doing so makes your comment very blunt, depending on the context of the situation, of course. There is also the difference between how you treat others in your outside group vs. your inside group. I am sure there is a huge difference between how they treat their spouses vs. how they treat people who aren't related.

[hyuna]

Dang, you're right. I suck.

[Masahiro]

I assume this means you'll be posting some videos of your own so we can be awed and amazed by you magnificent Kendo. Yes?

videos? maybe results is much more convincing. if you know where to look that is! :ko:

[MartialArtsGirl]

Dang, you're right. I suck.

:eek::eek::eek::eek:!!!


:ermm:

.......


:spchless::spchless::spchless:

[adman]

hey guys im glad i came across this post, i am unsure about how much humility i should be showing without being arrogant

the stoy is i have been at kendo for almost a year now and 7 weeks ago i had my first shiei ( fight sorry about the spelling ) and one a week from then on.

my first few fight were aganst fellow beggeners and i won them with surprise.

then 2 fights agenst more senior members and i won them with surprise yet again.

then my last fight i was up agenst a good sodan that i feared, this fight was just one point win we were runing out of time

and i got a good men within 6 seconds and i was blown away by my win and everyone was praising me i really dont know how to handle it

i felt bad for the sodan and didnt want to show boat so i stayed quite thro my praising and i feel like i was still arrogant

im lost as how to behave?

[MikeW]

Not hard at all... don't throw it in anyone's face after you win a match. But the next practice they are still your senior and deserve the respect due their position, just because you got a point on them during shiai doesn't men you are better of course. If people praise you too much just nod or say something to tone it down. Don't worry about being good or not being good, just work on your kendo, be appreciative to everyone you practice with, not just the sensei and senpai and let others know when they do something you feel has been done well. Just by wondering about the situation and what to do means you are proably on the right path IMHO.

[Josh Reyer]

Act like you've been there before and you'll be there again.

[vedenant]

Kendo is a competetive sport, right? :rambo:

.....just kidding.

Anyways:
To suck or not to suck: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?

Which is to say, IMHO, sucking is something that can only be born out of comparison between peers. To say that you suck when compared to some über-dan-sensei-master-of-the-universe (or just your teacher) is really the worst kind of self inflation. You are comparing your self to your betters that are with out a question on a different level than you.

Compare your self to your peers, and then if you still believe you suck, do something about it.

[sirius1906]

As my charactor once said, "Woh, that's the suckest thing I've ever suck." - Beavis

[bravo22]

At this point, I don't care whether I suck or not.

I'm more concerned about correcting my crappy fukitomi. >.<

[EndureForte]

It' good to be humble, but like it or not there is indeed a degree of humble intention-leading-to-ass-kissing that goes on. I think you should always be respectful, but being way to hard on yourself can occasionally be self-gratifying. Example, after a shiai. Matt loses, Bob wins. Bob approaches Matt to do the obligatory kote-shake:

Bob:"Oh, thank you for the match. You are very good."
Matt:"Oh ha ha thank you. You did pretty well though too. You won haha."
Bob:"Oh no no no. I'm still learning, ha ha."
Matt: (awkward silence and compulsory nodding before collecting bogu and departing)

I've heard this exchange many times. It not really a big deal, but when someone gives the "humble kenshi" a compliment and they unsurprisingly reject it, that can come off a little insulting. Especially if it comes from a sensei or sempai: a good senior won't mince words or blow smoke up your ass, so most of what they say should be accurate. Saying "no I'm worse than that" to an observation is a little off-putting in my opinion.

Always does me good to just hear "You're Good" and "Thanks," in the dojo. Especially when its true.

[Tsunemori]

Bob approaches Matt to do the obligatory kote-shake:
What is this secret kote shake? Do I need to be part of the cool group?

[still learning]

Anyways:
To suck or not to suck: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?


Not bad........

Perhaps another option for 1st line could be

To be hit, or not to be hit.......

[bravo22]

my shinai! ho!

[ThePoetWarrior]

To be hit, or not to be hit
Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer
Massive kote bruises or scrotum tsuki
Or to strike do just a little higher
And alas teach them a lesson in form

-credit to still learning for the first line

[pgsmith]

Always does me good to just hear "You're Good" and "Thanks," in the dojo. Especially when its true.
While that may do you good, it is most emphatically not the Japanese way. Japanese social norms dictate that you always deny a compliment, the same way that it dictates that you never directly say no. Seeing as how this is a Japanese art with Japanese terminology, and most of the senior exponents are Japanese, it is unremarkable that many facets of Japanese social norms will filter through to the practitioners. Often times however, you end up with folks, usually junior practitioners, that don't really understand how it works. This is where the awkward silences come in. It's something that you just learn to live with and ignore.