L or V sonkyo?

[Jagaimo]

The first way I learned to do the knee bending squat position was to leave my right foot in the same position from standing in kamae but rotate my left foot counter clockwise from big toe 90 degrees and then squat.
Now the second time around, at a kendo club, I learned to pivote both feet; my right foot clockwise 45 degrees and my left counter clockwise 45 degrees with both feet pivoting at the front. In this way my feet do not exactly mirror each other as they would do in the first way which causes more strain on my left leg if I try to level off my knees.
I checked out sonkyo in a book, Kendo: Definitive Guide, but all I could find on the matter was that your feet should not shift from kamae, which seems to be another way of doing sonkyo all together.

I'll change my positioning depending on the dojo/club that I am in, but I was just curious as to what the people on this forum feel is more the more appropriate way.

[Yowai]

Once your hip drops slightly, the hakama covers the feet. Then, you can do anything you want.

[Noe]

The first way you learned it is the way I learned it and the way my dojo does it. I think it is easy and serves its purpose, so there is no point in complicating it. But that's just what I think. Different sensei and dojos have different teaching styles.

[hamish]

The first way is the correct way, and the way that Ozawa means when he says that you shouldn't move your feet (positioning) from kamae. By this, I mean the balls of your feet don't move from your normal kamae, just your left foot twists in place. The second way may work if your kamae is too close to start with, but I wouldn't recommend it.

You will find that how you carry yourself from the bow to standing in chudan affects how you feel (and hence perform) A good sonkyo is an important part of that.

The hakama may cover your feet, but don't be fooled into thinking that what can't be seen doesn't affect your kendo.

Hamish

[Nishi]

The hakama may cover your feet, but don't be fooled into thinking that what can't be seen doesn't affect your kendo.Hamish

Now that is something to reflect on!

[Neil Gendzwill]

We have two kinds of sonkyo. The basic one is starting with your feet side by side. In this case your whole body faces the opponent square. When you stand up, you have to step forward onto your right foot. The other style that most people use is from your normal chudan kamae to just drop into sonkyo. Here your hips aren't square to the opponent, but rather aiming 30 degrees or so left. It's a little more difficult to keep your knees correct here, many people tend to drop the left knee too low (they should both be the same height). The big advantage to this one is that when you stand up, your feet are already in position and you don't need to move. The initial step from the basic sonkyo may place you a little too close (and you can't step back or sideways - that's giving up the fight from the start).

[Yowai]

The hakama may cover your feet, but don't be fooled into thinking that what can't be seen doesn't affect your kendo.


Much as if events within a singularity of a black hole actually happens?
Once the hakama touches the ground, feel free to write a poem with your toe.

[D'Artagnan]

I am just curious to know, how many people, in order to answer to this thread, got up from infront of thier computer and performed sonkyo, to see how they did it?? i know i did.

A

[Eldritch Knight]

Actually, I pay attention to my sonkyo, so I can give you a straight answer without checking. When I started kendo, I did a V sonkyo, but after learning tachi kata 1-7, I switched to L.

As a side note, a few of the girls in my club do that sonkyo where the feet don't move from kamae. I can't do it because my feet are screwed up and doing it extensively would probably snap my toes, but it seems to work really well if you just want to explode into action during jigeiko or a shiai.

[D'Artagnan]

Actually, I pay attention to my sonkyo, so I can give you a straight answer without checking.

I'll remember to leave a sense of humor behind next time...

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Much as if events within a singularity of a black hole actually happens?
Once the hakama touches the ground, feel free to write a poem with your toe.
#

if you think youre going to get away with that you are not with the programme

[Hai_hai]

I prefer the W sonkyo.

[Danny Boy]

The L sonkyo has this advantage, that as you get up, your feet are in the right position. So you have less adjusting to do before you start fighting.
On the other hand, the V sonkyo looks much more straight and...proper.
Jim Corey (5th-dan) told us to use the V sonkyo on all gradings and whenever performing kata, because it will make you look more "profesional" i suppose.

[Eldritch Knight]

Really??? I was always told that you use L sonkyo with kata but that either was viable with anything else. These were Japanese who told me and taught me everything I know about kendo, but we're from West Japan... maybe it's different in the East?

[ALI G]

I prefer the W sonkyo.

How befitting...Weak Sonkyo...

[emitbrownne]

:o I have no set sonkyo as I'm still learning.

I use any and all forms of sonkyo.. I've even tried a bizarre lunge style one, copied from an Iai student.

The one thing I try to keep uniform is the tension in my legs.
I try not to sit on my heels.
Unfortunately as I am fat and lazy, it does happen sometimes.:o

[cdal]

What two of my Kendo references say in regards to sonkyo:

"As they attain this position, the shinai is drawn as if from a scabbard, and the SONKYO-KAMAE position is taken...To begin the sonkyo position the kendoist, from the standing position, goes into a knee-bend with the shinai held at the side...In this starting position the knees should be turned outward during the crouch. The weight of the body rests equally on the ball of each foot. The back is held straight, the head erect, and the chin up as the kendoist looks straight at his opponent...Both kendoists rise with the right foot pushed forward and the left drawn back slightly, while the shinai remain crossed...Even today in the most remote fencing halls in Japan or in foreign countries where kendo is practiced, this preliminary conduct [sonkyo] is strictly adhered to by all kendoists. There is much more to this initial formality than mere discipline. It is the calmness and patience that are being taught to each fencer through each action that are important to understand." --THIS IS KENDO, THE ART OF JAPANESE FENCING; Junzo Sasamori, Gordon Warner.

"Sonkyu is an important starting position, and great care should be taken to learn it correctly. As the left (rear) foot comes forward, the knees bend outward. The toes point outward at a forty-five-degree angle, making a V shape. The heels should be off the floor so that they almost touch and are under the center of the body. The back should be straight, the eyes forward, chin tucked in slightly, and shoulders relaxed. The center of the buttocks should be over the center of the heels. O Sensei always said 'You can tell what kind of training a swordsman had by the way he sits in seiza or, most important, how he takes sonkyu'." --THE HEART OF KENDO; Darrell Max Craig

I would have to prefer the V style of sonkyo because center and balance is maintained. I feel off center and out of balance trying the L sonkyo.

The shifting of the feet from V to kamae stance, to me, does not seem to change forward position at all. I leave the ball of the right foot "planted" as I arise from sonkyo; and the left foot slides right back into kamae (left toe across from right heel) as I finish standing--all in one motion.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The shifting of the feet from V to kamae stance, to me, does not seem to change forward position at all. I leave the ball of the right foot "planted" as I arise from sonkyo; and the left foot slides right back into kamae (left toe across from right heel) as I finish standing--all in one motion.
This is the problem with the V style of sonkyo - distance. You are standing up incorrectly because you are stepping back, already giving up the fight. To stand correctly from V sonkyo, step forward onto your right foot. Of course when you do this the distance might be a little too close, which is why for kata we usually use L. For shiai now we have the "toelines" and the tips are quite far apart, so you can use the V and step forward.

[Nanbanjin]

:o I have no set sonkyo as I'm still learning.

I use any and all forms of sonkyo.. I've even tried a bizarre lunge style one, copied from an Iai student.

The one thing I try to keep uniform is the tension in my legs.
I try not to sit on my heels.
Unfortunately as I am fat and lazy, it does happen sometimes.:o

Some thoughts on teaching sonkyo from the Japanese Ichinikai website.
http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/

*********************************
*********************************

The order of this instruction has become a little reversed, but for beginners it is good to teach the movement of "sonkyo", which also acts as training for the legs. It is easy to squat down with the heels flat on the ground, but many people are unable to sit in "sonkyo" with the body balanced over the feet with heels raised, and this can make "reiho" difficult to teach.

Because of this training sonkyo is taught to beginners who are training for the first time as a physical exercise.

Implementation of training is as follows.
------------------------------------------------------------------

1. From "basic stance", rotate the left heel in an anti-clockwise direction around the point on the sole at the base of the second and third toes, leaving the right foot where it is.
2. At the signal of a whistle, slowly bend the knees and lift both heels up, as if your behind and heels are going to touch.
3. At the signal of a whistle, slowly stand up, and return to "basic stance" by rotating the left heel in a clockwise direction.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Blow the whistle to make a long sound, directing the movement of squatting and standing up.

Points of consideration are as follow.
------------------------------------------------------------------

* When squatting don't allow the upper body to lean forward.
* When squatting don't let the distance between the two feet open too much.
* The right knee points a little right of forward. The left knee points directly left. (Right natural posture)
* The line of the shoulders is a little to the left, but should not be too far to the left.
* When standing up one's posture should not lean forward.

------------------------------------------------------------------

There are always some people who lower their behinds straight down, so it is a good idea for the instructor to instruct so the behind can be lowered slowly.

Also, there are some people who don't have much leg strength who almost groan when trying to stand up, so you should instruct to stand up in a smooth motion silently.

["Rojindo"]

The Above is a very good explination of the method I learned... though I learned by watching our most senior player and merely copied him (his seemed the most diginified).

As an older beginner, I find it sometimes difficult not to wobble or grimmace when I rei in. I can tell you that bad sonkyo is not the exclusive domain of the weak-legged and over-weight... but larger and older players do have to be careful.

Heck, when I was first starting out, I've even fallen OVER while doing sonkyo... twice! Both times with our most senior Sensei.

(Talk about humiliating)

Nonetheless... I feel this bowing in and out of matches is an important formality in Kendo. The times I have offered sonkyo to other members and received a curt and hasty flex of the knees (the sword merely bounceing, not stopping) and felt... vaugely insulted.

Sure, the senior players have been doing this for decades and are bored with the chore of bowing... but I feel we are emulating a serious thing (sword-fighting). Respect to our sensei is important, but respect to our opponent is also important.


Honor your opponent with Dignity.


*

[Kyuuketsuki]

I am just curious to know, how many people, in order to answer to this thread, got up from infront of thier computer and performed sonkyo, to see how they did it?? i know i did.
Hahaha, I was just abut to do it, when I read this. LOL.
Anyways, I'll do it.

[hyuna]

Another data point:

When I started taking kendo, in Hawaii, in the mid 1980s, I was only taught the V sonkyo, not L. Moreover, we occasionally had to practice hopping and hitting men in sonkyo, and I cannot imagine how to do that effectively with L sonkyo. Also, occassionally, we would be tested on our ability to hold our balance in sonkyo by sensei giving us a shove us in one shoulder or the other. The acceptable response, as far I as I remember, was to shift the weight to absorb the push and if the push was too hard or long one should hop backwards without losing center. I can see L sonkyo as making it easier to absorb a shove on the left, but it seems like it would be worse for the right. Also, I am not sure how to move back without losing center in L sonkyo.

However, after I moved to the East Coast and started practicing kendo there, I was told to use L sonkyo and I have not seen V sonkyo ever being taught. Moreover, I have not noticed practicing hopping and hitting men in sonkyo, or had balance tested.

I am not sure what they teach in Hawaii anymore; maybe someone over there can let me know?

I think V sonkyo has one big theoretical advantage over L sonkyo. In V sonkyo, you are already square and balanced evenly on both feet, so even though your feet are side-by-side, you can be ready to hit at all times. In L sonkyo, I find I have to put more weight on my right foot to enable my left foot to rotate, when I am in the full squat, my foot is facing sideways and so is not in a powerful position to move into an attack, and I am less comfortable holding kamae with my body turned to the side because that is not how we practice our kamae. So, I generally feel less ready in L sonkyo. Probably this is just a rationalization though.

Incidentally, there are more differences between L and V than where your hips are facing. What I have in mind specifically has to do with the earlier point about distance. Obviously if you do V sonkyo at issoku-itto you will be too close when you step in. You have to sonkyo at kojin interval, not issoku-itto, with that style.

[hyuna]

The shifting of the feet from V to kamae stance, to me, does not seem to change forward position at all. I leave the ball of the right foot "planted" as I arise from sonkyo; and the left foot slides right back into kamae (left toe across from right heel) as I finish standing--all in one motion.
It was strongly emphasized to me that one should not step back when rising to kamae; one should only step forward.

As I rise, I rotate both feet to point forward simultaneously. When I am close to fully standing I simply step forward a half step with my right. Exactly when I shift my weight forward depends on what is happening with my partner because one tries to maintain the connection with them. So I must move as and when my partner moves.