How flexible and forgiving a ref are you?

[The great I AM]

I'm having trouble getting this right in my own head (I think I watched too much sumo today) so bare with me.

Mostly really to the people with some (even scan) reffing experience, and born from something I read in another thread, but others (I'm sure!) will contribute...

When you are reffing, and someone bangs something in that *might* be ippon, how far do you allow your own view between what is a nice example in kihon of the technique performed, and some crazy bendy limbo-esque attack that has blatantly compromised the person to the point of the atack bordering on impractical and not really valid?

Mostly just interested on how far people would allow to stretch or be prepared to stretch their own views of what is and isn't a particular technique. I guess it will also depend on how flexible a view somebody holds on kendo in general to some extent too.

Additionally, would you be prepared to over look any of the criteria for ippon (ie datotsubui, timing, hasuji to name a couple...) if the other bits fall seamlessly in? And if so why? Ie, the old "well, the timing was good..." point.

To add, I've heard of plenty of people not scoring techniques (and not just gyaku dou, but blatantly including it) simply because they don't even like it, never mind are able to do it to the point of being able to critique one enough in the momentary time available in shiai to judge if it is ippon or not. I think this is related because of the definate inflexible nature of the point of view held by these kinds of refs. I even heard of (admittedly this was second hand but it was from someone I trusted) of this being the case for a particular teacher with hikiwaza, and was the reason he didn't get asked to ref too often. Feel free to comment on this too....

This is mostly just a collection of thoughts I've been having recently, and seeing the other thing in the other thread thought I would blurt them out her for your internet leisure. All yours!

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don't personally like bendy kendo but I can't really see from the rules where it's a reason to invalidate the point. There was a clear example of that at the Winnipeg seminar, I was judging (seminar match, not really shiai) and the point was pretty much your standard bent over degote, but the contact was excellent, the timing was nice and after the bend, the zanshin made sense. I gave him the point but made the comment that I don't like that style of kote. Murao-sensei commented that he understood my opinion but that it was a clear point and would be judged so pretty much anywhere. I agreed with him, I was just bitching out loud about being required to accept it.

But as to the more general case of your question, which is would I be prepared to compromise on some element of a point, the answer of course is case by case. In mudansha matches we do this all the time - if you demanded perfection, the day would be very long indeed. Also if the match is in ensho, there is a tendency for the judges to become more lenient. I don't like doing that with higher level players, but with mid-level or lower I'm going to make a call in my mind as to whether these guys are capable of scoring properly on each other, and maybe adjust downwards a little if I think nothing is ever going to happen.

[ReKru]

I'm just learning that whole shimpan stuff, so I tend to follow that checklist in my mind I copied from the official rules what a 'valid ippon' is and what not.

Maybe a more experienced shimpan would award ippon because some strike struck his 'heart' (a point sensei has been pondering about lately) and is an impressive display of superb timing etc. and the things from my list that are missing are not that important.
But I still depend on my little list to validate attacks. And I don't feel I have the authority to award ippon based on experience I don't have (like which of those concepts are important at a higher level and should be encouraged and which not).

Sometimes I wish the competitors would acknowledge that they are judged by unexperienced people and play straigter kendo (not necesarily non-bendy kote, but good preparation of the attack, firm hit on the strike area, rather too much 'zanshin' than too little - or some sort of 'special zanshin' some people display .. I hate that), when they know the shimpan are going to suck.
Would make the job a lot easier for both parties involved.

p.s. Shimpan semiar coming up next weekend and (having watched some of them already), I have the feeling it will be utterly useless ("flag up 45 degrees! not 39, not 48!! - red side outside?!?).

[Soldier Blue]

I once heard reffing described as confirming the fact of what occurred between the two players.

If the two players know what the f... they are doing then you'd want to be sure that your idea of what's a good cut is as clear as theirs. If you are reffing people with little experience you can be more flexible (as Neil said).

If you don't score certain techniques you would want to be able justify your take on reality with something better than "I don't like it". You would also want to concede that if it's true for people other than you, well then it just might be true.

Having said this, I have heard of judging seminars where it is decreed that certain techniques will be judged lightly in order to encourage a certain type of kendo. An example is allowing scoring of gyaku-do to discourage people from raising their left elbow in a defensive posture.
In this case the style of judging is used to influence people's understanding of reality.

[ReKru]

If you don't score certain techniques you would want to be able justify your take on reality with something better than "I don't like it".

On the other hand - is "I like it" enough to score certain techniques?

[Soldier Blue]

On the other hand - is "I like it" enough to score certain techniques?
Depends why you like it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

On the other hand - is "I like it" enough to score certain techniques?It's not the reason you can give, but that's the way it works in practice. The only way to comprehend a point at speed is to have enough experience that all the elements of the point provoke a visceral reaction - "yeah, that's a point!" or "no, not enough there". A good point practically yanks my flag in the air. Then most of us are able to rewind the tape in our head and point to what it was about the point that wasn't good enough.

[ReKru]

Depends why you like it.

Because it "struck my heart" of course. :D

Can't we just switch to electronic scoring? :eek: :laugh:

[Soldier Blue]

It highlights the importance of having judges at a skill level at least equal to the competitors. I imagine myself judging at the AJKC. I wouldn't have the skill to be able to know what was going on. A kyu grade competition I think I could handle.

This is the problem with the judging WKC... Huge gaps between the skills of competitors, and in some cases between competitors and refs.

[Soldier Blue]

Because it "struck my heart" of course. :D

Can't we just switch to electronic scoring? :eek: :laugh:

Would that be electronic sensors for the hearts of refs or targets of competitors?

[ReKru]

Would that be electronic sensors for the hearts of refs or targets of competitors?

All target areas must be covered - if the shimpan's heart is a valid target area, hook'em up. :smoker:


It highlights the importance of having judges at a skill level at least equal to the competitors.

Good point. But in reality (at least over here in germany), our top competitors (national and international level) seem to hate judging and the guys that have their own set of flags in a leather bag and the fancy 1000$ suits don't like to compete. :/

[R Stroud]

the point was pretty much your standard bent over degote, but the contact was excellent, the timing was nice and after the bend, the zanshin made sense. I gave him the point but ...

Perhaps another way to look at this is to agree that for a taikai, you did the right thing, a yuko datotsu (valid strike) was correctly awarded by the shinpan. But that does NOT mean the same technique/position/hit would help the person at his shinsa. Things that win taikai don't always help improve one's kendo.

To me, kenshi have to be able to shift gears between taikai and shinsa. Of course, I think you and I are alike Neil in that we both would prefer to see nice straight kendo done to win the taikai. I think it is much harder to win a taikai if you want to limit yourself to "correct kendo" but it is very cool to do so.

[Soldier Blue]

Good point. But in reality (at least over here in germany), our top competitors (national and international level) seem to hate judging and the guys that have their own set of flags in a leather bag and the fancy 1000$ suits don't like to compete. :/

I think this is a problem the world over. I remember I volunteered as a judge one year when I was unable to compete. I was amazed at the competitiveness to actually be a judge, particularly amongst a certain and lets just say not necessarily well qualified demographic.

[ReKru]

Btw - One of those "I like it" situations, where I tend to be uncertain is: smaller opponen vs. taller opponent (we talk about 1' or more difference).
Smaller opponent goes for men - good spirit, good preparation, good oportunity, good zanshin but - due to the height difference - feeble hit not quite on top of the men (hitting top of mengane instead of datotsu-bui).

If one go by the textbook, one should not award it, since it's not a 'correct' hit on the datotsu-bui.
If one go by the struck heart rule, I have to award it.

[Soldier Blue]

Height difference is something that the rest of Japan has more experience with than Japan.
I like seeing the little guy win too.

[Gideon]

I think it is much harder to win a taikai if you want to limit yourself to "correct kendo" but it is very cool to do so.

Stroud Sensei - may I quote this? I find it extremely motivating and quite timely for my own particular situation.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Would you penalize the taller player for an awkward-looking doh?

[Soldier Blue]

Well, it's all about letting the little guy win after all.

[PhilMcLaughlin]

better to ask in 2 weeks after the referee seminar in the uk

I would love to award more points in shiai - but i cant if the elements are not there

Mike Davis sensei (ref at wkc finals) is very strict when teaching this & hes absolutely right - you have to decide and be able to explain your decision for every decision you make (or dont)
given the time you have to make that decision is about 0.5s, Its no wonder I feel so tired after a competition (much more so than when competing)

Generally the better the kendo - the easier it is to award a point - so bendy, twisty, flashy might do it - but a good, straight cut is really easy to score and as Neil said the flag is up almost by instinct

the only exceptions (for me ) are

juniors taikai - judge it on spirit if not technique
kyusha taiki - you cant expect them to get it right so pretty similar to juniors

encho with 2 fighters who arent that good / experienced - the match has to end

I wont relax the judging criteria just because someone is trying & 'nearly' there or has most of the elements but not all
that would be really unfair to other competitors on other courts

the pre taikai meeting is used to clarify emphasis to be used, especially with Hantei

Im a junior ref and I learn every time I judge a match. I know I make mistakes (thats why there are 3 refs !)
but its like everything else - its a part of kendo and has to be done. So I try to do it as well as I can and look to improve

of course if the fighters would just do perfect cuts, it would be easy to score and life would be so much easier :-))

cheers

[Charlie]

I have little experience as shinpan, too little to offer much here! This is a good thread and I am looking forward to the comments of others with experience, an opinion or both. Gibbs, I can guess your answer to this question - you do not dislike "bendo," as a rule. In general, I am a somewhat picky shinpan who prefers to err on the side of caution in awarding a point, although I, too, adjust expectations to the level I am judging. The things I look for are, in order, the site of the contact, the sound of the contact, and the zanshin of the competitor. If those three things line up, I tend to keep my flag down. In other words, if it looks like he hit dekote, but I can't really hear it and he's at a weird angle, I will not award it.

I'm working on becoming a better shinpan, though.

[ben]

I spent Sunday shinpaning from 9am until about 6.30pm, pretty much non-stop. The main thing I learned was that the amount you shinpan makes a huge difference. In the morning I was nervous, but by the afternoon I was very relaxed and found yuko datotsu much easier to perceive in pretty much all circumstances. Here are some other notes to self FWIW:

Some cuts can be lighter in striking force and still be yuko datotsu, namely degote (this is not my opinion but comes from the 8-dans at two separate FIK Shinpan Seminars). Women's matches can be tricky for this reason, as degote can come extremely fast but sometimes without the "sae" or power of the men's comp. Shinpan need to be on their toes and ready to award such ippon, which are very common in women's kendo (both against men and against other women).

I got tired of awarding ippon to hiki men, it's not ideal kendo IMHO. However as the shiaisha got tired at the end of the day and their shiai got bogged down, hiki men was often the only way for one to break through.

The main thing I have to consciously work to avoid is the expectation that the more powerful opponent is likely to win. Knowing each shiaisha, their histories and capabilities, it is very easy for shinpan to watch only one shiaisha. I kept reminding myself, "anyone can score the next point", even if it is 6 dan vs 1 dan (an added difficulty of these type of lop-sided matches is that the shinpan should apply 6-dan criteria to the 6-dan's ippon, and 1-dan criteria to the 1-dan).

I sometimes saw points go past that in hindsight should have been awarded. Two challenges there: 1) let go of it and focus on the next point, 2) avoid the temptation to look for a "make up" point, i.e. waiting for the opportunity to give that shiaisha their point back that they missed.

b

[Kagerou]

But as to the more general case of your question, which is would I be prepared to compromise on some element of a point, the answer of course is case by case. In mudansha matches we do this all the time - if you demanded perfection, the day would be very long indeed. Also if the match is in ensho, there is a tendency for the judges to become more lenient. I don't like doing that with higher level players, but with mid-level or lower I'm going to make a call in my mind as to whether these guys are capable of scoring properly on each other, and maybe adjust downwards a little if I think nothing is ever going to happen.

Same here. I think the biggest thing to keep in mind when judging ANYTHING is the level of the competitors. I've never ref'd kendo but for karate you don't expect the lower ranks to throw perfect techniques at the best distance and time. It's not realistic.

[ben]

Another easy test to apply for the potentially nerve-wracking finals matches is this: would the shiaisha involved, the crowd, or indeed you yourself, want to win such an important match with a dubious ippon? The quality of the ippon should in some way be commensurate with what is at stake.

b

[Charlie]

Ben, that was great. "Must spread some reputation around" & cetera.

I realized I made a mistake in my last post. "The things I look for are, in order, the site of the contact, the sound of the contact, and the zanshin of the competitor. If those three things line up, I tend to keep my flag down" should read "if those three things don't line up."

Ben-san, why is hiki-men not ideal kendo to you? I tend to see two kinds of hiki-waza, the fast flick and the big thump. Certainly the big thump is impressive as hell!

[Obulco]

I kept reminding myself, "anyone can score the next point", even if it is 6 dan vs 1 dan (an added difficulty of these type of lop-sided matches is that the shinpan should apply 6-dan criteria to the 6-dan's ippon, and 1-dan criteria to the 1-dan).

Thanks, Ben, for your post. I did not know that this was a criteria used by shinpan. Is information about the rank of the contenders passed to the shinpan beforehand? I am thinking mainly of how complicated this can become in team matches.

[Shazzanzzz]

In my limited judging experience, i always give someone a point if it's a good opportunity, good sound from the strike, and good forward motion, and ki ken tai. I don't really judge on how aesthetic looking it is... Since, I don't think that is part of judging in shiai. That's judging in shinsa. I'm not the person's sempai or sensei, so, it's not my job to teach them either (senseis like Neil might feel differently though...).

[Neil Gendzwill]

I kept reminding myself, "anyone can score the next point", even if it is 6 dan vs 1 dan (an added difficulty of these type of lop-sided matches is that the shinpan should apply 6-dan criteria to the 6-dan's ippon, and 1-dan criteria to the 1-dan).Thanks, Ben, for your post. I did not know that this was a criteria used by shinpan. Is information about the rank of the contenders passed to the shinpan beforehand? I am thinking mainly of how complicated this can become in team matches.I disagree with Ben here. I'll consider relative rank in some internal shiai, but if it's a competition I hold everyone to the standard of the division they're in.

[Lucien]

I think the points made by Ben and Neil are spot on.

Although I might be misinterpreting what Ben said, I think hiki-waza is perfectly valid in competitions. IMO, there are many similarities between being in tsuberzeriai and being in issoku-no-itto no maai. In competitions, there is no excuse for wanting to 'reset' back to the latter. You should feel comfortable there and be looking to make a point. Afterall, if neither side can make a point then the ref can say 'wakare' (although it strikes me that a lot of new refs don't know when to use this).

[JSchmidt]

I think the points made by Ben and Neil are spot on.

Although I might be misinterpreting what Ben said, I think hiki-waza is perfectly valid in competitions. IMO, there are many similarities between being in tsuberzeriai and being in issoku-no-itto no maai. In competitions, there is no excuse for wanting to 'reset' back to the latter. You should feel comfortable there and be looking to make a point. Afterall, if neither side can make a point then the ref can say 'wakare' (although it strikes me that a lot of new refs don't know when to use this).

I believe they are trying to reduce the amount of time spent in tsubazeria in Japan, initially by reducing the amount of time the ref has before calling "wakare", which has now been reduced to 10 seconds in police taikais. The effect of this was quite evident in both the All Japan Police Champs and the AJKC.
Personally, I'm not interested in tsubazeriai neither in practice, shiai or watching shiai.

[DCPan]

(an added difficulty of these type of lop-sided matches is that the shinpan should apply 6-dan criteria to the 6-dan's ippon, and 1-dan criteria to the 1-dan).

Hmm...I assume you are referring to team matches?

I was taught to just set a bar, and have that bar apply to everybody in all five matches. It isn't fair to have different criteria for the contestants involved as it could be interpreted as being partial.

In my limited experience, the hardest thing be it individual or team matches, is trying to make that bar constant for the bracket or team.

Being the junior learning how to judge, I find myself adjusting to the sensei who just rotated in to the judging all the time.

In many ways, I feel like the judges develop a relationship much like how you establish your relationship with an aite in a match.

Just my random thoughts....

[Kingofmyrrh]

I disagree with Ben here. I'll consider relative rank in some internal shiai, but if it's a competition I hold everyone to the standard of the division they're in.

I think I'd side with Neil as well, personally speaking.

[Gideon]

^ This is mostly for the sake of my own curiosity, so how does that play out in team matches? Say, in a situation of a shodan competing against a yondan in a 'Mens Team' division?

[Kingofmyrrh]

I don't really see why the weaker player should be treated more kindly, to be honest. Weak tennis players don't get a free set at Wimbledon, and strong football teams don't have to start a match with 9 or 10 players in the World Cup. Why should a shodan, all other things being equal, be expected to fight on even terms with some of a higher grade? A competition isn't an ego-stroking exercise - weak teams do get, and should be, heartily thrashed. It's good motivational stuff if you take it the right way. At the end of the day, if your team brings a knife to a gunfight then the ref has no duty to help you out at the expense of the better-prepared team.

[Gideon]

I agree, I don't think they should. In fact, in those instances where a shodan happens to score an ippon - a real ippon - on a yondan, I think it would carry that much more weight in their own minds than if they were given a crutch or a gimmie because they were ranked lower.

That said, my question still stands. How do you, as a ref in a division that contains a wide range of abilities (from the small dojo bringing five ikku to the JCCC who brings world competitors) when the division is vaguely specified as 'mens team' as opposed to the more specified individual divisions 1-2 dan or 3 dan & up. I am also willing to accept that my question, being from a new kendoka, completely misses the point and will leave it at that.

[ben]

I don't really see why the weaker player should be treated more kindly, to be honest. Weak tennis players don't get a free set at Wimbledon, and strong football teams don't have to start a match with 9 or 10 players in the World Cup. Why should a shodan, all other things being equal, be expected to fight on even terms with some of a higher grade? A competition isn't an ego-stroking exercise - weak teams do get, and should be, heartily thrashed. It's good motivational stuff if you take it the right way. At the end of the day, if your team brings a knife to a gunfight then the ref has no duty to help you out at the expense of the better-prepared team.

Well that's not quite true. There are many sports where a handicap system is used so that competitors of uneven ability can compete on a more "level playing field." Golf, horseracing, athletics to name three. There's nothing a shodan can do to suddenly improve against a rokudan, other than their best (and maybe realise they have the underdog advantage). The knife-vs-gun analogy is a bit spurious.

BTW this was not my opinion but was mentioned by a visiting Hanshi, although I forget whether it was Chiba sensei or Fukumoto sensei. I think he just meant you should expect more of kodansha. If you don't, then these are the two outcomes:
1) The kodansha scores with a weak men that is little more than seme on a normal day for him/her. S/he gets the feeling s/he is a high school kid competing in the primary school division.
2) The shodansha tries everything, including waza that worked earlier in the day in the individual comp against another shodansha, but cannot land a cut with as much sae as the shinpan suddenly seem to expect. The shodansha now feels like a primary school kid competing in the high school division.

Re hiki waza: I don't have anything against it, I did say I awarded lots of them on Sunday, but none of them were the really PON! kind that make you hair stand on end. It's much, much harder (mentally speaking) to score effectively on your opponent when you are moving towards them than away from them. Batman said an interesting thing that I also heard from Chiba sensei. As mentioned, they brought in very strict rules this year on time in tsubazeriai for Police taikai. I think the comment was translated as, "You should have seen how fast people got out of tsubazeriai once they realised they would get hansoku for it."

b

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Hi ben

I see the logic in what you are saying, but it makes me very uneasy

if its stated taikai policy that rank will be taken into account & all shimpan are briefed that way then fair enough, if not then there is a risk of different standards in different shiaijo

as for changing expectation - that really bothers me

if you do that there is a real risk of the criteria for yuko datotsu 'drifting' during the day & i think that would be really unfair to competitors

ippon is ippon, if the fighter gets it great, if not, they dont

what Ive noticed is that it gets easier to award ippon in the later stages of a taikai as the less able fighters get beaten by the better ones

the downside is that it tends to happen much faster so the concentration level is mind boggling (to me anyway :-)

interesting points - Ill ask Davis sensei this weekend

cheers

[Obulco]

BTW this was not my opinion but was mentioned by a visiting Hanshi, although I forget whether it was Chiba sensei or Fukumoto sensei. I think he just meant you should expect more of kodansha. If you don't, then these are the two outcomes:
1) The kodansha scores with a weak men that is little more than seme on a normal day for him/her. S/he gets the feeling s/he is a high school kid competing in the primary school division.
2) The shodansha tries everything, including waza that worked earlier in the day in the individual comp against another shodansha, but cannot land a cut with as much sae as the shinpan suddenly seem to expect. The shodansha now feels like a primary school kid competing in the high school division.

Ben, I do not have experience as a shinpan in Kendo so, needless to say, perhaps I just do not know enough to understand those reasons. However, from my point of view, a very modest shodan competitor, it would seem that the application of that criteria, unless all participants and shinpan are in perfect sync at all times, presents the risk of many of us leaving for the day with a sense of arbitrarity. As I said, maybe I just do not know, but I have that feeling.

[Gideon]

Beautiful thing I'm learning is that... arbitrary seeming or not, there's still a lesson to take away from the match.

[Koki]

Last year at the Kendo summer camp in San Jose, we had Ota sensei and Sato sensei from Keisicho. One of the questions coming up during the shimpan seminar was actually how shimpan would judge if there is different in levels of kendo (e.g. a shodan vs. a yondan). Sato sensei said that we should judge based on the level of the higher ranking kenshi. This totally makes sense to me. That’s why local taikai usually have different divisions based on rank. However, when you get to the National or WKC, …. Good luck!

[Kenshi]

Good thread.

If the ability is vastly different ive always been taught to judge to the highest skilled (grade is irrelevant) competitor. The simplest rationale for this is simply to promote a more orthodox or "proper" kendo.

If we award dubious points then the competitors (especially if they are kids) will have the wrong idea of what an ippon is... especially if its compounded over a number of shiai/years. If we strictly enforce awarding ippon, then competitors have an imputus to get better.

If you are the weaker competitor then, well, "practise harder and get better" is the message. As someone who competes in a country where my opponents are always better than me, this is the message that I get loudly and clearly.

--------

On a side note, I think shiai is the basis of kendo development in Japan. Many many kids and young adults (from 6-21) practise kendo in order to enter shiai (and win). They go to keiko and practise hard so that they can get picked for their team and to develop techniques/strategies for getting ippon.

If the shinpan are strict in what they define as "ippon" then - over the years - the kids get faster, stronger, more accurate, and their kendo develops into something really powerful. They literally force the shinpan to raise their flags. When they are adults and have passed this initial (key!) development stage they then move on to the whys-and-wherefores.

Without good shinpan (they have gone through this key development stage as well), this system would fall apart.


(or something like that)

[MAZ77]

Last year at the Kendo summer camp in San Jose, we had Ota sensei and Sato sensei from Keisicho. One of the questions coming up during the shimpan seminar was actually how shimpan would judge if there is different in levels of kendo (e.g. a shodan vs. a yondan). Sato sensei said that we should judge based on the level of the higher ranking kenshi. This totally makes sense to me. That’s why local taikai usually have different divisions based on rank. However, when you get to the National or WKC, …. Good luck!

This is what I hear as well. You must judge at the level of the highest ranking competitor. Perhaps that is just a general rule of thumb, or a guideline from a group of similar thinking sensei, but i think it makes sense to me. Although there can leave much disparity, that is what kendo is about.

[ben]

I think people are interpreting what I'm saying as permission to give ippon to sloppy kendo. I'm not. Ippon is still ippon and as Phil says, they either get it or they don't. It has to all come together according to the way the rules are being applied at any given taikai.

But what I think you can still do, given all that, is recognise that what a rokudan can score when playing at their limit is not accessible to a shodan when playing at their limit (for all school-teachers, remember Vygotsky and his "Zone of Proximal Development"? :P). Of course people play above themselves all the time and that is one of the joys of watching matches between people of different rank.

One thing that has been said at both the FIK Shinpan seminars I've attended is that shiaisha must feel that ippon is, in fact, an attainable standard, and not some impossible dream. Shiaisha must not have inappropriately high standards applied for their level. The result can be that people give up kendo because it not only seems too hard, but the rules start to make no sense.

b

[Kenshi]

I think there is a lot of good stuff on this thread.

Ben, couldnt give you rep, sorry.

[Obulco]

I think people are interpreting what I'm saying as permission to give ippon to sloppy kendo. I'm not. Ippon is still ippon and as Phil says, they either get it or they don't. It has to all come together according to the way the rules are being applied at any given taikai.

Thanks for elaborating, Ben. I think that I understand the position better now.

I agree with Kenshi. Very interesting, informative threat.

[Kingofmyrrh]

I had a feeling I'd get called on the golf, but I must admit I don't know anything about horseracing or athletics handicaps. How does that work, just from interest?

I find it much easier to agree with the way you phrase it in the last post. Always attainable - if very difficult when the gap is great.

[ben]

I had a feeling I'd get called on the golf, but I must admit I don't know anything about horseracing or athletics handicaps. How does that work, just from interest?

Dunno about horseracing (that probably makes me "un-Australian") but the Stawell Gift (http://www.stawellgift.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=42) definitely uses handicapping. It's one of the oldest professional footraces in the world. The times look slow because it is run over 120m.


The Australia Post Stawell Gift is run on a grass track, unlike the World Championships, Olympic or Commonwealth Games, which are conducted on synthetic rubber surfaces. At Stawell the athletes run in lanes that are separated by lane ropes, not painted lines. Runners are handicapped according to their ability, and given a ‘mark’ of between 0m (running 'off scratch') and 10m.

For many runners, the key to success at Stawell is to beat the handicapper – meaning they may not have displayed the form they are capable of in the lead-up to the event in the hope of receiving a handicap or ‘mark’ that might make victory more achievable

And this from Wikipedia

The idea of the handicap system is that all runners would theoretically cross the line at the same time. The handicapper works out what mark or handicap the runner will have according to their previous performances in the sprint, currently the most a runner may be handicapped is 10 metres, although this is occasionally increased to 11.

Interestingly only two runners have ever won starting from "scratch".

Pardon the drift. Back to the discussion.

b

[ReKru]

I had a feeling I'd get called on the golf, but I must admit I don't know anything about horseracing or athletics handicaps. How does that work, just from interest?

In horseracing, as far as I know, the horse with the lighter jockey gets additional weight (now that would be a brilliant idea for Kendo - most of my opponents having to wear a 40-100lb lead vest! :D ).

In Kendo, I'd find it hard to find a common rule how to deal with differences in rank, since rank doesn't really say much about how good someone is at shiai.

[Lucien]

The idea of horse racing handicapping is that all horses would theoretically cross the line at the same time. To achieve this in a handicapped race stronger horses have to carry more weight. The biggest handicap is, I think, 5 lbs. The weight is based on previous results. For punters the idea is to beat the handicapper and, as always, the odds laid by the bookmakers.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Who'd have known!? Thanks guys. I think we have klilled the discussion though...

[Kenshi]

I think a better way to handicap a horse would be to either use a fat jockey, or use two jockeys.