World Rankings

[Bane]

Hi, I was just wondering whether or not Kendo International Sqauds have rankings, ie, the best to worst as I am interested to see where the UK Kendo Squad stand in the world. thanks for your time :p

[Inetaro]

I guess it would be ranked by # of titles.

Over past 12WKC:

1st-2nd-3rd

Japan 12-0-0
Korea 0-7-2
Canada 0-2-5
Brazil 0-2-4
China 0-1-4
U.S.A 0-0-5
Hawaii 0-0-2
Italy 0-0-1
Okinawa 0-0-1

[KATSUJIN]

i dont think all the countries are ranked by the end result. they may have other criteria.... i not sure...

[xvikingx]

What about the UK?

[AlexM]

Here's how I'd rank'em

1. Japan: No one comes close in terms of quantity, quality and variety (goes from daigakusei sportsmen to old sensei that ooze with budo no kokoro)

2. Korea: Fast, nasty and technically sound. I just don't know if they have as many of those 8th dan "He knows what I'm about to do before I know what I'm about to do" type of kendoka. I'm not qualified to discuss the budo aspects of kumdoists because I only know Korean kendo through competitions.

3. The BIG Four: USA, Canada, Brazil and Taiwan (not forgetting Hawaii, the freak state). Four runners up in recent years. Tough mofos, technically sound kendo despite it being essentially amateurs. Gotta have those people of Japanese decent (in the case of Taiwan it's the amount of foreign exchange students I'm told). Because of the presence of Japanese expatriates and some traditionalists within the Japanese community you get sport kendo and the budo aspects... at least I think you do.

4. The stronger Europeans: France, Hungary and now Italy. Physically strong, technically sound... need more practice (especially with shinpan :D). Smaller population of kendoka, tough "sport" to promote (less variety in terms of level of kendo). Would benefit from having some Japanese uni students come over and do kendo... instead of inviting over hachi-dan sensei to teach their 20 year olds.

5.The other Europeans: I'm now not all that sure about how it goes from here.. Germany, Spain, Finland, Sweden, UK, etc... Same problems as the stronger Europeans... just worse and with an even smaller population of kendoka.

6. Everybody else: Aruba, Madagascar, Luxembourg, etc... Kendo still developing, need more kendoka, etc.

That's it really. I'm no doubt going to catch hell from the moderators for not putting New Zealand (go All Blacks!), Australia, Singapore, Malaysia, etc... in there... (I had no idea where to put them... probably ranging from as good or better than the stronger Euros to the weaker Euros).
Now, it should be noted that in just about every country you come across at least a couple of exceptional kendoka: I'm thinking of the Castro Bros. in Spain, Chavez in Mexico, Bennet in NZ ;) (urgh... being a sycophant really reaks havoc with my stomache).

And for the record, it is abhorent to "rank" countries in terms of a level of budo :D . You do what you do and you try to improve, regardless of your country's "rank". That being said... the reality is that Japan is just head and shoulders above the entire world. They could field a team of nothing but 1st year university students that could crush the cream of the crop in every other country (with the exception of Korea). The rest of us are just going after scraps in terms of sport kendo.

This has been an unpaid political annoucement and rant...

[Bane]

Here's how I'd rank'em

1. Japan: No one comes close in terms of quantity, quality and variety (goes from daigakusei sportsmen to old sensei that ooze with budo no kokoro)

2. Korea: Fast, nasty and technically sound. I just don't know if they have as many of those 8th dan "He knows what I'm about to do before I know what I'm about to do" type of kendoka. I'm not qualified to discuss the budo aspects of kumdoists because I only know Korean kendo through competitions.

3. The BIG Four: USA, Canada, Brazil and Taiwan (not forgetting Hawaii, the freak state). Four runners up in recent years. Tough mofos, technically sound kendo despite it being essentially amateurs. Gotta have those people of Japanese decent (in the case of Taiwan it's the amount of foreign exchange students I'm told). Because of the presence of Japanese expatriates and some traditionalists within the Japanese community you get sport kendo and the budo aspects... at least I think you do.

4. The stronger Europeans: France, Hungary and now Italy. Physically strong, technically sound... need more practice (especially with shinpan :D). Smaller population of kendoka, tough "sport" to promote (less variety in terms of level of kendo). Would benefit from having some Japanese uni students come over and do kendo... instead of inviting over hachi-dan sensei to teach their 20 year olds.

5.The other Europeans: I'm now not all that sure about how it goes from here.. Germany, Spain, Finland, Sweden, UK, etc... Same problems as the stronger Europeans... just worse and with an even smaller population of kendoka.

6. Everybody else: Aruba, Madagascar, Luxembourg, etc... Kendo still developing, need more kendoka, etc.

That's it really. I'm no doubt going to catch hell from the moderators for not putting New Zealand (go All Blacks!), Australia, Singapore, Malaysia, etc... in there... (I had no idea where to put them... probably ranging from as good or better than the stronger Euros to the weaker Euros).
Now, it should be noted that in just about every country you come across at least a couple of exceptional kendoka: I'm thinking of the Castro Bros. in Spain, Chavez in Mexico, Bennet in NZ ;) (urgh... being a sycophant really reaks havoc with my stomache).

And for the record, it is abhorent to "rank" countries in terms of a level of budo :D . You do what you do and you try to improve, regardless of your country's "rank". That being said... the reality is that Japan is just head and shoulders above the entire world. They could field a team of nothing but 1st year university students that could crush the cream of the crop in every other country (with the exception of Korea). The rest of us are just going after scraps in terms of sport kendo.

This has been an unpaid political annoucement and rant...


thanks for the replies guys :ditsy:

[Bane]

I think I have heard that there are around 700 British Kendoka, not much is there... but I like being apart of that small number :rambo:

[Neil Gendzwill]

That being said... the reality is that Japan is just head and shoulders above the entire world. They could field a team of nothing but 1st year university students that could crush the cream of the crop in every other country (with the exception of Korea).
That's an exaggeration. Team Canada members have beaten some very well-respected Japanese kendoka and gotten a lot of positive press within Japan itself. I can't say how they'd do against the top-ranked college teams, but I think they can handle themselves against kids just out of highschool.

[AlexM]

That's an exaggeration. Team Canada members have beaten some very well-respected Japanese kendoka and gotten a lot of positive press within Japan itself. I can't say how they'd do against the top-ranked college teams, but I think they can handle themselves against kids just out of highschool.

I think you're overestimating Canada's strength quite frankly. S.Asaoka is above their caliber, but he's probably the only one.

[Neil Gendzwill]

In Santa Clara, Canada came very close to beating Japan in the semi-final. I don't understand how this somehow translates into them being cannon fodder. I don't disagree that Japan could select from hundreds of candidates for their worlds team and see pretty much the same results. That doesn't mean they could send their third-rate talent though, just that they have an awful lot of top-rate talent.

[AlexM]

In Santa Clara, Canada came very close to beating Japan in the semi-final. I don't understand how this somehow translates into them being cannon fodder. I don't disagree that Japan could select from hundreds of candidates for their worlds team and see pretty much the same results. That doesn't mean they could send their third-rate talent though, just that they have an awful lot of top-rate talent.

A) Coming close against Japan still means they won... There would have been no difference if Japan had sent a team of much lesser ranked kendoka.

A) I didn't say Team Canada et al. were cannon fodder or no good. I'm saying that compared to the Japanese they're not on the same level (and why should they be? it's pros. vs. amateurs. Realistically in fact one would expect worse results).
I'm not taking away the merit of national team members from whatever nationality: they work hard, deserve credit and (usually) do VERY GOOD kendo. But the Japanese are still far ahead of the everybody else.

B) I said a team of 1st year uni students could pretty much beat the cream of the crop in any other country. I stand by that (for now). When an average run of the mill 1st year daigakusei showed up here in 2002 he got 2nd place in one tourney and 3rd in another. Both times he lost by hansoku to M.Raymond (I was appalled by the judging). In both those tourneys Team Canada members were participating (Kamata, Yamashita, Raymond).
If your average level Japanese university student can beat members of Team Canada, imagine what the good ones could actually do.

Third-rate talent in Japan beats our first rate talent. Is that bad? Not really. Does it matter? Not particularly. Should we aspire to that level of kendo? YES!!!

[Sanjuro]

Actually...In reply to AlexM i think that Taiwan is one of those WKC representatives that have a large portion of Taiwanese on their team, with fewer people of Japanese descent. I know this because my high school friend was going to be on the WKC TPE team, but couldnt do it because of school.

[Sanjuro]

Also, I think Taiwan adopted kendo from the period of Japanese occupation, and somehow it stuck. The presence of Japanese exchange students nowadays in Taiwan, I think, is a less influencial factor on Taiwan kendo than the occupation. In my old dojo in TW of 500 or so members, there were very few Japanese...and most of the teachers were Taiwanese. The head sensei was a hachidan, but I never learned if he was Chinese or Japanese. Could speak perfect mandarin though...and could easily defeat all comers in sparring practice at an age of 80+-...

[note: sorry about the two posts, tried to edit the first but the time expired]

[KATSUJIN]

uuuhhhh.... the singaporean and malaysian teams sent pure local teams..... :D

[sminki]

uuuhhhh.... the singaporean and malaysian teams sent pure local teams..... :D

the Korean team was purely locals as well. :laugh:

[AlexM]

Didn't I mention something about the Taiwanese team being made up of locals? (the "exchange student" theory)... I have no real idea why kendo in Taiwan would be any good.

I didn't say that the American, Brazilian and Canadian teams are not also made up of "locals". Last time I checked every team Canada member was born IN Canada (except for Taro Ariga who was born in Brazil, studied in Canada, worked in Japan and now runs a business in the US... he really chose his spots huh? :D ).

[kanyil]

Didn't I mention something about the Taiwanese team being made up of locals? (the "exchange student" theory)... I have no real idea why kendo in Taiwan would be any good.
the extended period of military occupation and colonization by Japan may have something to do with it. but kendo is by no means a "popular" sport here in Taiwan, at least for now.

[Nanbanjin]

the extended period of military occupation and colonization by Japan may have something to do with it. but kendo is by no means a "popular" sport here in Taiwan, at least for now.I used to train at a Taiwanese club in Sydney. They were all beginners apart from the instructor but I liked the way they trained. A Japanese friend said that Taiwanese kendo was good because of the reasons you stated, and for the fact that they acknowledge and respect Japanese kendo.

[Kingofmyrrh]

I`m clearly in no position to say anything about the canadian team, having only seen one WKC, but I do think that it`s very common for people to underestimate the level of good high school and uni students. Frankly, anyone who`s really top level just doesn`t have time to go abroad since they spend all their time training. For example, the Kanto delegation soon to visit N. America, while being a bunch of very competent and dedicated guys, would for the most part get wiped out in competitions here. The serious contenders are all too busy practicing to come and help us. So a squad of first years would probably be a little more threatening than some might imagine.

Oh, and BTW, are you a member of OUKC, Bane?

[The Boss]

T. Ariga is the worst problem in Canadian kendo.

Always wonder why candadians dont say things that putt

[Nanbanjin]

I`m clearly in no position to say anything about the canadian team, having only seen one WKC, but I do think that it`s very common for people to underestimate the level of good high school and uni students. Frankly, anyone who`s really top level just doesn`t have time to go abroad since they spend all their time training.
Could not agree more. It makes me cringe everytime I hear somebody over here criticise "high school kendo". To put it bluntly...


A QUALITY JAPANESE HIGH SCHOOL/UNIVERSITY KENDOKA WOULD WHIP ANY AUSTRALIAN KENDOKA ANY DAY. AND I MEAN ANY!

[reg]

I think you're overestimating Canada's strength quite frankly.
pardon me for sounding rude, but i think you might also overestimate first year students. some universities would have a first year entering a major tournament, eg kanto/kansai taikai, or all japan student championships, but the reality is, those universities are not the powerhouses. the strong universities would be represented by 3rd or 4th year students, simply because these students would have developed a more sound and effective kendo. yes, some first years are amazing, but they will still have highschool kendo in their technique. pitting them against a team such as Canada, with most of its members having had WKC experiences, would prove a difficult challenge, even to the most gifted of first years.

but then again, that's just my opinion :evolved:

[Nanbanjin]

Could not agree more. It makes me cringe everytime I hear somebody over here criticise "high school kendo". To put it bluntly...


A QUALITY JAPANESE HIGH SCHOOL/UNIVERSITY KENDOKA WOULD WHIP ANY AUSTRALIAN KENDOKA ANY DAY. AND I MEAN ANY!

...except for reg reagan of course who could bloody well whip anyone.

[reg]

Could not agree more. It makes me cringe everytime I hear somebody over here criticise "high school kendo:wink: unfortunately, that's probably a fair assessment on the level of kendo in australia.. it'll be a while yet for australia one would think.. T_T
quite a few of the working holiday-makers from japan who train during their stay in australia have done kendo only during highschool, or maybe university [the latter is a bit rare], but you can still notice the difference in the levels. and these people may not even be as enthusiastic as the top players they trained with :evolved:

edit: i'd bloody well teach anyone the art of biff. no matter who they are! who cares if they're headmaster this, or referee that. a good headbutt and a kick in the goolies will set them straight. :cheeky:

[Nanbanjin]

:wink: unfortunately, that's probably a fair assessment on the level of kendo in australia.. it'll be a while yet for australia one would think.. T_T
quite a few of the working holiday-makers from japan who train during their stay in australia have done kendo only during highschool, or maybe university [the latter is a bit rare], but you can still notice the difference in the levels. and these people may not even be as enthusiastic as the top players they trained with :evolved:
You're talking to someone who trained at a Japanese high school for a year and didn't score a single point. Unfortuantely, that probably says a lot about the level of my kendo. Still, can't help having a soft spot for the school kiddies.

It just strikes me as not quite right the way people dismiss "highschool kendo". I mean, most of those kids train six or seven days a week and usually with a very high degree of dedication. I reckon they deserve more respect. What are we after all but a pack of weekend warriors?

[reg]

You're talking to someone who trained at a Japanese high school for a year and didn't score a single point. Unfortuantely, that probably says a lot about the level of my kendo. Still, can't help having a soft spot for the school kiddies.

It just strikes me as not quite right the way people dismiss "highschool kendo". I mean, most of those kids train six or seven days a week and usually with a very high degree of dedication. I reckon they deserve more respect. What are we after all but a pack of weekend warriors?
i enjoy highschool kendo very much. probably the inner-child is speaking out, thinking that i'm still young..:old_man: anyway, the time you spent where you didnt score a single point must've helped in shaping what you have today. and since you've developed into a good player, maybe it's not such a bad thing not scoring any point for the whole year [i mean, it would suck in the short term i guess] =P

and yeah, compared to them, we're just weekend warriors. although on weekends, they train for a lot longer. 10 till the afternoon T_T [good God, NO SATURDAY FOOTY!! AAA THE HUMANITY!]

[Nanbanjin]

anyway, the time you spent where you didnt score a single point must've helped in shaping what you have today. and since you've developed into a good player...
Reg Reagan knows me and is handing out compliments! Well I will be able to tell this one to my grandchildren.




Strange thing happened to my last post. Seems to have disappered.... Anyone seen it anywhere? Involved me and the Newcastle Knights cheerleaders squad...

http://www.geocities.com/alldaymate/cheerleaders.html

Woof!

(Yes I know I'm a goat, but 'baaa' just doesn't have the same impact)

[reg]

i was there first! :wink:
BAAA!