Off the shelf men & Hirano bogu from Tokyo

[always_learning]

Is it just me or does anyone else have the problem of fit or visibility with off the shelf men? After trying about 5 types from 3 shops, they always seem loose/slipping around the chin, if if the chin is OK the megane bars are just in the wrong spot (set a bit high) and blocking my vision, particular the looking a little downwards just where the eyes of most of my fellow kendoka would be located since I am tall. One bogu owner said my it seems my head is wrong shape against the standard Japanese skull...far enough since I am about as Japanese as slab of Victoria Bitter (http://www.answers.com/topic/victoria-bitter).

So I am now thinking of getting a custom made high quality machine stitched men. Has anyone purchased bogu from Hirano bogu (http://www.kitanet.ne.jp/~kendou/syouhin.htm)Run by a 8th dan kyoshi Hirano-sensei. Its a tiny shop near Ikebukuro Tokyo.

Seems to be well regarded and worn by a number of kendo notables and most/many of the recent champs of Japan, which makes me wonder if his brand is more suitable for shiai and high level players ie the high skilled who don't get smacked a lot or don't mind a few bruises to gain superior flexibility) than past used by date plodders like me. ( I was thinking about a medium grade machine sewn keiko sets for less than 200000 yen US$1800, not the hand stitched "sensei" sets for 500000yen US$4600 ).

[neko]

if the problem is just the men, why not just buy a custom men? why do you need the whole set new?

[always_learning]

Yes sorry I didnt clarify I am thinking of just getting the men. However the internet has only sets prices listed for machine bogu. Prices of individual items however are limited to the hand sewn stuff. Naturally I at least will not get Kote (as I have just purchased a pair that I expect will last me a long time).

[Curtis]

Go here:

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14506

[always_learning]

Thanks curtis, the men you purchased clearly was the high(est) end hand made one. When you went to the shop what did you think of the machine types? ie would you purchase there machine men for regular Keiko if you need to purchase a new men for everyday practice?

[Kenshi]

you live in japan, just go into a shop and get measured. the guy will ask how long youve done kendo and probably suggest a men to you. its the sales now, so you probably wont even pay more than 2万 for a decent everyday-men.

unless you are rich or going for your 6dan anytime soon, machine keiko-yo is the way to go.

[Curtis]

Thanks curtis, the men you purchased clearly was the high(est) end hand made one. When you went to the shop what did you think of the machine types? ie would you purchase there machine men for regular Keiko if you need to purchase a new men for everyday practice?

It is not the highest end since I am too cheap for that. I use a Koei 3mm machine men for everyday practice. Same thing I have used for almost 20 years. I did not really look at the machine men.

[always_learning]

you live in japan, just go into a shop and get measured. the guy will ask how long youve done kendo and probably suggest a men to you. its the sales now, so you probably wont even pay more than 2万 for a decent everyday-men.

unless you are rich or going for your 6dan anytime soon, machine keiko-yo is the way to go.

As I said I am looking at custom made machine type, rather than custom made hand stitched (which from the picture Curtis purchased). I have visited 3 bogu shops looking a machine types and nothing felt right, the my head and face just didn't quite match stock. As mention the bogu shop owner said my head was odd shaped against normal Japanese. As a 40 year old salary-man I don't have money to burn but I don't need to worry about the price ranges at the machine stitched bogu level. Meaning I happy to pay for functionality, durability, fit and comfort, but as luxury and exclusivity I can leave a the door.


For example when I purchased a new bike I could have purchased a Chinese shopping bike for 20,000yen (US$180), but I paid 200,000 (US$1800) for a specialized bike (well it was made in Taiwan) with aluminum frame and top end shimano (XT) parts, I have used the bike everyday for 5 years and couldn't be more happy with my purchase. US$1800 for a XC-MTB bike is just the start of top end, it is quite possible to pay US$5~8K on a competitive carbon framed XC-MTB (http://www.cambriabike.com/shopexd.asp?id=28486&page=IBIS+MOJO+CARBON+SLX+MTN+BIKE), but that is wasted on me, I just want long term quality and functionality.

[Curtis]

As I said I am looking at custom made machine type, rather than custom made hand stitched (which from the picture Curtis purchased). I have visited 3 bogu shops looking a machine types and nothing felt right, the my head and face just didn't quite match stock. As mention the bogu shop owner said my head was odd shaped against normal Japanese. As a 40 year old salary-man I don't have money to burn but I don't need to worry about the price ranges at the machine stitched bogu level. Meaning I happy to pay for functionality, durability, fit and comfort, but as luxury and exclusivity I can leave a the door.


For example when I purchased a new bike I could have purchased a Chinese shopping bike for 20,000yen (US$180), but I paid 200,000 (US$1800) for a specialized bike (well it was made in Taiwan) with aluminum frame and top end shimano (XT) parts, I have used the bike everyday for 5 years and couldn't be more happy with my purchase. US$1800 for a XC-MTB bike is just the start of top end, it is quite possible to pay US$5~8K on a competitive carbon framed XC-MTB (http://www.cambriabike.com/shopexd.asp?id=28486&page=IBIS+MOJO+CARBON+SLX+MTN+BIKE), but that is wasted on me, I just want long term quality and functionality.

I looked at his web page and I recall his machine sets somewhat. What I can tell you is I am sure he will custom fit you. In my case the men had to be made a little deeper to cover the back of my head. I tried on his men and it fit me perfectly, but was a little shallow.

My wife bought some machine kote and they are very good quality. You might think also about Chiba bogu with Michael Komoto. I am sure he will get you fitted.

[Kenshi]

As I said I am looking at custom made machine type, rather than custom made hand stitched

I dont understand. You go to a shop. They measure you. Your order something that fits you. You wait. Doesnt matter if its machine or hand, its the same process. How much you want to pay is up to you.

I have a men that I dont need....

[always_learning]

.

My wife bought some machine kote and they are very good quality. You might think also about Chiba bogu with Michael Komoto. I am sure he will get you fitted.

Chiba bogu was also something I was thinking about price at 7~80,000yen it fits my budget, but its quite far car trip away (80km) from me against cycle distance 7km for Hirano bogu which appears to be at least as good. (For those outside of Japan a 80KM trip this must sound like I am being a prima-donna)

[always_learning]

I dont understand. You go to a shop. They measure you. Your order something that fits you. You wait. Doesnt matter if its machine or hand, its the same process. How much you want to pay is up to you.

I have a men that I dont need....

It is my understanding that for less than 40,000yen mostly everything order from stock, meaning there is a warehouse of stock of various sizes that is then delivered. Chiba bogu made to measure "mine" men is priced at 73500 yen US$660 (http://www.chibabogu.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=32).

I am thinking to have made to measure machine stitched to keep price and time-line to a reasonable level. This is what am thinking about hence this post about anyone experience with Hirano bogu.


If lets say someone said "I had a similar problem with my chin and forehead being mismatched and I purchased brand X " then this is the information I am seeking in this thread. I have a 20000yen 10 year old beginners men (steel mengane, 3 mm stitching) and it is fine OK, but has a nasty habit of slipping around my chin when I sweat and a few big kihon men's and no amount of tying it up tighter fixes the problem. I hope I am not expressing an unusal desire to have something offering a little more fit and functionality.

[Kenshi]

Yeah, the un-needed men I have is one of those 7万 chibabudogu ones.

You should certainly be able to get something custom made for you under 4万..... especially with the sales on. You might have to wait abit for it to get made. Im going to get a custom made A1 men (http://www.kanagawahakkodo.co.jp/a_1men.html) from Kanagawa Hakkodo next year... I think thats about 3万 on sale.

Anyway, shop around, you will definely get something!!

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

Kenshi, may I ask about your opinion on the chiba budogu men, I´m considering getting one, but I´ve not made up my mind yet.

[Kenshi]

;302366']Kenshi, may I ask about your opinion on the chiba budogu men, I´m considering getting one, but I´ve not made up my mind yet.

Ive nothing really bad to say about the entire set. My men is slightly too big, and heavier than I am comfy with, thats why I dont really use it. No complaints other than that. There are some reaaaaaaaally long threads about their stuff on here, so do a quick search.

I think as long as your bogu fits your body and your purse, then any bogu manufacturer is ok.

[StevestonKC]

Ive nothing really bad to say about the entire set. My men is slightly too big, and heavier than I am comfy with, thats why I dont really use it. No complaints other than that. There are some reaaaaaaaally long threads about their stuff on here, so do a quick search.

I think as long as your bogu fits your body and your purse, then any bogu manufacturer is ok.
you find the MINE men heavy? that's a first, can you describe anything else about the men that bothers you?

[always_learning]

You should certainly be able to get something custom made for you under 4万..... especially with the sales on. You might have to wait abit for it to get made. Im going to get a custom made A1 men (http://www.kanagawahakkodo.co.jp/a_1men.html) from Kanagawa Hakkodo next year... I think thats about 3万 on sale.

Anyway, shop around, you will definely get something!!

The A1 seems well regarded from Japanese kendo forums, lots of good reports at 3万円 (US$270) price point it would appear very resonable indeed, I couldnt see the price on the web site, but I would have guessed double or triple that. The only negative comments I could see is that its lightness does come at a cost of feeling some of the heavy blows.

[always_learning]

OK foundfax page (http://www.kanagawahakkodo.co.jp/images/fax.pdf) has the price of the A1 Men,

37000yen (US$330) plus extras such as nanami (cross) stitching for 3000yen (US$25). So a new years special would make it very good value!

[JSchmidt]

The A1 seems well regarded from Japanese kendo forums, lots of good reports at 3万円 (US$270) price point it would appear very resonable indeed, I couldnt see the price on the web site, but I would have guessed double or triple that. The only negative comments I could see is that its lightness does come at a cost of feeling some of the heavy blows.

I have the A-1 men. It's now semi-retired as I spend an awful lot of time as motodachi and it couldn't quite withstand that (And it's not what it is designed for either). For the first 18 months or so, it protected extremely well, fitted like a glove and it's ever so light.

Regardless..listen to George. Go into a shop, tell them that you want a men that fits and they will order a custom made machine stitched men that will fit you.

[Kenshi]

you find the MINE men heavy? that's a first, can you describe anything else about the men that bothers you?

Yes, I find it and still find it heavy. Its a little too big for me, so thats probably what the real problem is -- had it been smaller and slightly lighter then it would have been better for me.


37000yen (US$330) plus extras such as nanami (cross) stitching for 3000yen (US$25). So a new years special would make it very good value!

Yeah baby!

[Sakari]

I have the A-1 men.

Have you noticed the lacquer peeling off (more than you would expect) from around the mengane with your A-1.
This is something that happened to my >1year old A-1 men. Otherwise it's brilliant.

[JSchmidt]

Have you noticed the lacquer peeling off (more than you would expect) from around the mengane with your A-1.
This is something that happened to my >1year old A-1 men. Otherwise it's brilliant.

A little bit, maybe, but then as mentioned, I spent a fair amount of time as motodachi.

[StevestonKC]

Does anyone else find the MINE a bit heavy? I just ordered one and that is a bit unsettling.

[DCPan]

Does anyone else find the MINE a bit heavy? I just ordered one and that is a bit unsettling.

It was a little heavy at first, until the uchi-wa molded to my face. You have to tight it really tight in the beginning, otherwise, the IBB grille will hang out too far and make it appear heavier than it is.

[StevestonKC]

Thanks DCpan - I ordered the duralumin mengane however. I wonder how it's going to feel.

I've been using a titanium tozando 3mm for about 11 years, and I'm expecting a appreciable difference in comfort - however light would be a definite plus.

[DCPan]

Thanks DCpan - I ordered the duralumin mengane however. I wonder how it's going to feel.

I've been using a titanium tozando 3mm for about 11 years, and I'm expecting a appreciable difference in comfort - however light would be a definite plus.

Even with the IBB, when holding it, I didn't think it was heavier than my 1.0 bu.

If I could do it again, I'd rebuild my 1.0bu with the IBB titanium and put the IBB dura on the Mine...assuming the IBB dura also has the 1mm wider mono-mi. I don't think Chibabogu offers the IBB dura as an option yet though.

[Kent Enfield]

I don't think Chibabogu offers the IBB dura as an option yet though.It may not be one the website, but it was listed as an option on some of the sets in the last catalog I got. It certainly couldn't hurt to ask.

[mugen no junin]

Does anyone else find the MINE a bit heavy? I just ordered one and that is a bit unsettling.


I find it a little bit heavy...I have a standard titanium mengane, and it slides down if I don't tie it very well...but in my case I think it's a little too big for me and that could be the problem.
Anyway in my opinion it's a fantastic men, really soft but surely do the job very well.

[StevestonKC]

Well thanks for all the feedback - in any case, it should arrive here in about 2 days. Too bad I won't be able to actually use it for practice until next year :(

[always_learning]

Well I visited Kanagawa Hakkodo (http://www.kanagawahakkodo.co.jp/), the makers of A1 men (the shop in Yokohama), and Hirano-sensei's shop and tried on both. Hirano (http://www.kitanet.ne.jp/~kendou/index.html)-sensei men was simply the best I have tried at any shop within the realm of finanical sanity. (Sorry I didnt visit Chiba bogu for a comparison of the mine men).

I ordered the 102 model machine stitched men with a little extra leather trim that bumped the price up US$70 to 71000yen (US$650), it will take approximately 2 months to be ready. Personally if anyone is spending US$1500~2000 for a set of bogu then I would recommend a visit to his shop. Moribudo top quality 870A machine (http://www.moribudo.co.jp/english/list/) set is cheaper at 135,000yen US$1200, but you dont get the custom measured fitting.

Interesting to note that he told me he gained his 8th dan (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=298211&postcount=19&highlight=hirano)with machine stitched bogu. Maybe I am doing him an injustice but reading between the lines he didnt seem think there was much to be gained by the selection of hand stitched bogu. He was very surprised to know his shop was mention in a gaijin kendo forum :alien:

[Curtis]

Well I visited Kanagawa Hakkodo (http://www.kanagawahakkodo.co.jp/), the makers of A1 men (the shop in Yokohama), and Hirano-sensei's shop and tried on both. Hirano (http://www.kitanet.ne.jp/~kendou/index.html)-sensei men was simply the best I have tried at any shop within the realm of finanical sanity. (Sorry I didnt visit Chiba bogu for a comparison of the mine men).

I ordered the 102 model machine stitched men with a little extra leather trim that bumped the price up US$70 to 71000yen (US$650), it will take approximately 2 months to be ready. Personally if anyone is spending US$1500~2000 for a set of bogu then I would recommend a visit to his shop. Moribudo top quality 870A machine (http://www.moribudo.co.jp/english/list/) set is cheaper at 135,000yen US$1200, but you dont get the custom measured fitting.

Interesting to note that he told me he gained his 8th dan (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=298211&postcount=19&highlight=hirano)with machine stitched bogu. Maybe I am doing him an injustice but reading between the lines he didnt seem think there was much to be gained by the selection of hand stitched bogu. He was very surprised to know his shop was mention in a gaijin kendo forum :alien:

Well if it fits like mine it will feel like it just sucks on to your face. He sure got my fit right.

I normally would have bought the machine stitch, but I got caught up in the impulse buying with my wife and friend egging me on to by the hand stitched. With my wife it was just go ahead and get it and that was enough.

[Kagerou]

Well if it fits like mine it will feel like it just sucks on to your face. He sure got my fit right.

I normally would have bought the machine stitch, but I got caught up in the impulse buying with my wife and friend egging me on to by the hand stitched. With my wife it was just go ahead and get it and that was enough.

That was the buy it real quick before she changes her mind?
My wife isn't so willing to give in. When I mentioned handstitched she asked me when she would get hers....

[Curtis]

That was the buy it real quick before she changes her mind?
My wife isn't so willing to give in. When I mentioned handstitched she asked me when she would get hers....

There is where I luck out, my wife does not really care about hand made. Kimono, now that is another story. Cruises Ebay on a regular basis.

[always_learning]

Well if it fits like mine it will feel like it just sucks on to your face. He sure got my fit right.

I normally would have bought the machine stitch, but I got caught up in the impulse buying with my wife and friend egging me on to by the hand stitched. With my wife it was just go ahead and get it and that was enough.

Well even if it turns out to fit like the stock examples he had it will be 100% better than the average. Personally I had great trouble with getting a correctly fitting men due to my head being odd shape, with every men that fitted my face, the megane was positioned 5mm too high for me and one of the horizontal bars was always obscured my slightly downward forward vision, given I am 186cm tall this means I couldn't see the face and eyes of 95% Japanese kenshi.

I suppose hand stitched will last longer (decades rather than one decade) and certainly looks better, maybe if my capital investment council (CIC) was not with me I may have upgraded to the 1.5bu...it was lovely to look at.

Anyway in comparison to lets say any sport that uses an engine or sails on the ocean, the cost of kendo with even 2 sets of the best bogu is a rounding error or pocket change! The membership in my club in Japan is US$90/year (10000yen), for which I can go twice a week and get near personal training by 6 and 7th dans (even if it is things such as "Kendo-JANAI" :ko:). The best Hirano hand stitched 1.0bu bogu set, is still going to be less than the cost of a new set of slick track tires and magnesium alloy rims for a sports car.

[Kagerou]

There is where I luck out, my wife does not really care about hand made. Kimono, now that is another story. Cruises Ebay on a regular basis.

dangerous hobby....I managed to get my wife to forget about Ebay.

....thankfully she doesn't want the top grade of handstitched. So I only have to save an extra couple grand after I have enough for mine....I admit I want the nice stuff. I'm a sucker for do with a mirror shine on them....and double kera kote....I better stop now before I go empty my bank account and go shopping.

[Curtis]

dangerous hobby....I managed to get my wife to forget about Ebay.

....thankfully she doesn't want the top grade of handstitched. So I only have to save an extra couple grand after I have enough for mine....I admit I want the nice stuff. I'm a sucker for do with a mirror shine on them....and double kera kote....I better stop now before I go empty my bank account and go shopping.

No problem there, very sensible. Looks for stuff for her or the other members. That is why I was surprised when she picked out the pattern for my men and prompted me to buy it.

[ne0r]

You won't believe it, but even only listening about this quality gear is real fun... :)