Jodan no kamae zanshin

[iwamizu]

Hi,

I would like to ask the jodan practitionners about the zanshin in jodan no kamae.

I unfortunately do not have a jodan sensei and I'm taking up that stance due to a leg injury.

My jodan education is from whatever I can read and whatever video is available to me.

In chudan, at the lower dan levels a good hit is followed by passing the adversary with a strong kiai and following through in zanshin.

In most of the Jodan videos I see, points scored with katate men have precise hit, strong kiai and fumikomi, but the player stay's stationary and does not follow through as one would in Chudan.

Does that mean that the zanshin in Jodan does not necessitate the follow through.

In chudan keiko, we emphasise strongly on the follow through and zanshin so that it comes naturally in shiai. Should jodan be approached in the same manner?

thank you.

[JSchmidt]

Watch more videos...you need to cut and go through.

[Kagerou]

I'd agree. From what I've seen at tournaments stationary hits don't score and usually draw a counterattack raising the chance you'll get hit.

[mashu19]

Hi,

I would like to ask the jodan practitionners about the zanshin in jodan no kamae.

In chudan keiko, we emphasise strongly on the follow through and zanshin so that it comes naturally in shiai. Should jodan be approached in the same manner?

thank you.

hello,
in jodan you should be following through as well, one of the most important things too is to keep your shoulders and body striaght(same as chudan) because alot of new players tend to turn sideways to the left. just a bit of advice cause you dont have a teacher with you.

you should be following through, however in the videos maybe the jodan player were being attacked when they hit, so if they moved to far forward then the shinai would hit near the hilt of the shinai not the tip, equalling no point, so mabe thats why, always follow through though.

[Neil Gendzwill]

One of the hardest things to do is follow through with jodan, but you need to do it.

If you get to Toronto now and again, ask Tsumura-sensei for advice.

[absenteekendoka]

Especially if you are new to jodan.....go through.....basics basics basics applies here. And when you go up Jodan....dont wait to long. That tends to be better at a higher level of Kendo, not as good when your beggining a form. I've had that drilled into me for a long time ( though i to did often wait to long.....leaves some one a nice opp. to get Kote....Do....) Especially if your taller. Damn sneaky little people! :)
Though if your doing Keiko, sometimes going Jodan really throws people off...can sometimes give you a great opp. for a point. Can be easy to drop in a kote or a men....

[iwamizu]

hello,
in jodan you should be following through as well, one of the most important things too is to keep your shoulders and body striaght(same as chudan) because alot of new players tend to turn sideways to the left. just a bit of advice cause you dont have a teacher with you.

Thanks a lot, turning to the left is exactly what I've been doing and I've been wondering if it was correct or not.

I do intend to get in touch with tsumura sensei in the near future.

[shred_lord]

When you guys say follow through, do you mean physically pass your opponent?

[Legionario]

one of the most important things too is to keep your shoulders and body straight(same as chudan) because alot of new players tend to turn sideways to the left.
Excuse me if I ask you, but that's not what I have been taught. The correct jōdan posture - if we can talk of ONE correct jōdan posture - is obtained by slightly rotating your torso to the right. A movement wich will bring your left side a bit forward and your right side a bit behind. That to strike faster katate men and at the same time avoid to be hit by a tsuki.
You can see it clearly explained in the Chiba sensei DVD.

To get back to the question raised by iwamizu, I think that one important aspect to take care of when executing zanshin is not to raise your left hand too high. The left hand must be mantained at the height of your opponent's face, just like if you were punching him in the face.
This way you maintain a correct posture while at the same time being less exposed to possible counterattacks.

My two cents.

[JSchmidt]

Excuse me if I ask you, but that's not what I have been taught. The correct jōdan posture - if we can talk of ONE correct jōdan posture - is obtained by slightly rotating your torso to the right. A movement wich will bring your left side a bit forward and your right side a bit behind. That to strike faster katate men and at the same time avoid to be hit by a tsuki.
You can see it clearly explained in the Chiba sensei DVD.


That's fine for degashira-men whilst avoiding the tsuki, but with the basic kihon katate-men cut should be cut as straight as possible, especially so when first starting out.
Any kind of bend sideways advice will lead the newcomer straight into a world of bad habits.

[Legionario]

Any kind of bend sideways advice will lead the newcomer straight into a world of bad habits.
It is not about bending or crooking. I didn't wrote that.
That the cut must be performed straight is one of the first things that you learn in kendō and I don't think anyone here would disagree.

But when you raise your arms to assume the guard and place your left fist in front of your left eye it comes natural to forward your left shoulder a little and to withdraw your right shoulder a little. It does not affect how you move your legs or your head.
In the jōdan posture your shoulders aren't perfectly aligned as in chūdan, but you'll always have your left side a bit forwarded. It may be a very short movement, but your shoulders will however differ from how they are when in chūdan.

This, obviously, has nothing to do with not cutting straight, bending, assuming a crooked posture or any other bad habit.

[JSchmidt]

Unlike chudan, there's a lot more obvious variations in jodan and I'm well aware that it's up to each individual to find their own kamae. This can vary from dead straight up to 30 degrees or so 'hanmi' stance.
However:
This is about someone starting out in jodan. Telling him to twist sideways, especially to go around the center(tsuki) as Chiba describes, is simply just a bad idea.
He should instead endeavour to be as straight as possible, as it's much easier to introduce the slight hanmi stance later on.

[Genya]

In kihon it´s always follow through, but in keiko I sometimes just run towards my opponent and after crashing I continue with backward movement like in hiki waza. Not sure if this is correct but it just happens to me sometimes...
When you follow through and after turning around, do you go to chudan and then back to jodan or is it straight to jodan after turning?

[iwamizu]

I think I understand what Legionario is trying to say.

Yes the Hidari Jodan Stance has no choice but to bring the left shoulder forward and the right one back due the slight rotation og the pelvis an therefore the spine. As in chudan, the simple fact of having one hand in front of the other causes a shoulder rotation toward the side of the front hand, even when we are standing straight.

The Pivot JSmith is talking about comes in the attack. Without guidance, doing the push/pull motion of the left hand forward and right hand to the hip tends to lead naturally into a sideways lunge a bit like in european fencing.

I naturally fell for it, but then I was asking myself : "wait a minute, this is kendo, there is no such thing as a sideways stance". That's where I had a dilemma about the proper method.

Indeed there is the technique that Chiba Sensei demonstrates, but it is clearly a technique only applicable to dodge a tsuki and counterattack with katate men.

I am a fervent supporter of dead straight clean solid technique when doing keiko, this is why I needed clarification on the zanshin.

While we are at it, are there other easy traps to fall in when starting?

[Legionario]

This is about someone starting out in jodan. Telling him to twist sideways, especially to go around the center(tsuki) as Chiba describes, is simply just a bad idea.
He should instead endeavour to be as straight as possible, as it's much easier to introduce the slight hanmi stance later on.
Sorry for getting back on the issue but, again, I didn’t encouraged anyone to twist sideways, as I didn’t told anyone to bend his posture, as you previously stated. I don’t know if Iwamizu is an experienced fighter who changed his kamae due of an injury, as he wrote, or a newcomer starting directly in jōdan.
Being straight in kendō is the norm to obtain a correct posture, but what I wanted to point out with that first post of mine in this thread, is that in jōdan no kamae it is natural to have your left shoulder more advanced than you right one. That’s it.
When I first was taught jōdan no kamae in Japan, the person who taught me all the basics, along with many other things, made sure that I understood to keep my left side more advanced than my right side. A minimal but important aspect that I thought it might be beneficial to point out.
I have started many years ago and this is an advanced technique, so my case may differ from the one of Iwamizu, as I can strike straight even if I keep my left shoulder forwarded.
It would be interesting to hear the opinions of the more experienced jodan fighters of the forum, if there is any.

Anyways, I think that there is a wider range of kamae variations within jōdan no kamae than with chūdan no kamae. So it’s up to the individual to discover the kamae that best fits him, and it will take some time (I’m still in progress...).

That's all, my last post on the issue. :ko:



When you follow through and after turning around, do you go to chudan and then back to jodan or is it straight to jodan after turning?
For what has been my experience in keiko until now, it depends from the situation. Most of the times when I turn around after a strike, I make sure to evalutate the distance that separates me from my opponent to see if he can hit me and then I directly get back to jōdan. Otherwise, if we are too close, I close again the distance or remain in chūdan.
But I am sure that other people will behave differently so, again, my two cents.



While we are at it, are there other easy traps to fall in when starting?
From my experience I think is highly beneficial to tape my training session and then watch it back home while taking note of the many errors I have made.
In my case it has been useful to correct some bad habits.


Saluti.

[EBP2K2]

in furukawa sensei's videos, he covers some jodan techniques and i remember seeing him go straight through on most wazas except ones for tsuki (since the opponent is well on his way out of dojo flying backwards) and some kote waza.

[mashu19]

here are some things that i seems to have trouble with in jodan, its easy to fall into bad habits with these i think.

1)right hand, when you hit katate men the right hand should come down fast too as you push the shinai, i have alot of trouble with not bringing it to my waist quick enough. sort of like a flick out and then move down. 2 step move, where as its should be one swift movement.(understand me??)

2)stepping, its hard to find your proper distance in jodan, and important i think to keep a further distance than chudan, we can reach a little further so i tend to fall in to a habbit of not stepping far. my teacher always tells me to step further when i strike(once angain, understnading me??)

3)weight on the front foot. this one may be debatable, but most of your weight 70-% maybe should be on the front foot. keeping your centre of gravity forward. this allows a much faster strike and larger distance as you find it easier to step forward.

4)dont step back, this sort of ties in with 3, you shouldnt really step back if can be helped, as your new into jodan it will feel insecure and scary. so dont step back and create an opening for your opponent. keep your stance and stay firm, its really daunting for them to come in close so dont worry bout that just yet(theres a few ways to deal with it later on and im sure youll find out soon)

5) kote, while in jodan, kote is the only real target, tuki too if they know it well. but well in truely kote will come 90% of the time, so you should learn a few ways like harai men, kote nuki men, fatser katate men, and just hitting their shinai down to counter this. it was my biggest trouble for a long time. i cant even remember how many times i got hit on my kote.tuki isnt such a worry cause a nice katate men will fix that.

6)left hand, try not to hold the shinai too tight in your left hand. when i do this i find that my wrist is too firm and my shinai is crocked on the hit, if you keep your hand relaxed then its easier to straighten.plus a relaxed hand means relaxed fore arm and wrist etc. so its quicker too, of course not to relaxed as you dont want it flying out of your hand. but dont go thinking you need to hold it harder cause its only one hand.

a couple of last things, after youve followed though or done a hiki waza, judge your distance well before going back into jodan, if your too close its an instant kote hit to you. so stay in chudan and keep a strong stance, then fast as you can raise your arms, also if you can, after a hiki men for example, dont bring your arms down and go straight into jodan from there, much quicker.

theres been a bit of talk about the shoulders, and as i wrote above, keep them as straight as possible. i think if you do this then eventually you will have that little bit of a twist(its only natural)but if you focus on the twist yours will be too much.

it might be a bit of a help to strengthen your left arm too, those hand squeesers are great to built your forearms.

well i wrote way too much but i htink i covers most of the basics and mistakes ive made alot.

good luck:confused2

[mashu19]

When you guys say follow through, do you mean physically pass your opponent?

i try to, but sometimes they get in the way....

[ahmed61086]

3)weight on the front foot. this one may be debatable, but most of your weight 70-% maybe should be on the front foot. keeping your centre of gravity forward. this allows a much faster strike and larger distance as you find it easier to step forward.

4)dont step back, this sort of ties in with 3, you shouldnt really step back if can be helped, as your new into jodan it will feel insecure and scary. so dont step back and create an opening for your opponent. keep your stance and stay firm, its really daunting for them to come in close so dont worry bout that just yet(theres a few ways to deal with it later on and im sure youll find out soon)

5) kote, while in jodan, kote is the only real target, tuki too if they know it well. but well in truely kote will come 90% of the time, so you should learn a few ways like harai men, kote nuki men, fatser katate men, and just hitting their shinai down to counter this. it was my biggest trouble for a long time. i cant even remember how many times i got hit on my kote.tuki isnt such a worry cause a nice katate men will fix that.



Just because you do Jodan, doesn't mean you know about Jodan well, or have an indepth knowledge of kendo. Neither do I, but I think I have your trumped here. How long have you been practicing? Let me help you out a little bit.

Point 3. Its not debateable. If you have more weight on your front foot, you are able to move backwards faster, and make your ability to move foward, much harder. If you put your weight on yoru front foot, you wont be able to get the distance in your lunge/fumikomi, UNLESS you very quickly transistion your weight back onto your back foot, to push you fowards. Thus creating many nanoseconds of telegraphed/slow movement. If you want to be able to move fowards farther, with less telegraphed movement, you need the weight on your back foot or have 50/50. Whenever the weight is on teh front foot, you will have a more defensive kendo.

Point 4. Your right, dont step back. But if your weight in on yoru front foot, you wil want to step back.

Point 5. Thats true, maybe for low level players. But Ive seen every single kind of point scored on Jodan. Men, doh, gyaku do, kote, tsue, etc.

[Genya]

Point 3. Its not debateable. If you have more weight on your front foot, you are able to move backwards faster, and make your ability to move foward, much harder. If you put your weight on yoru front foot, you wont be able to get the distance in your lunge/fumikomi, UNLESS you very quickly transistion your weight back onto your back foot, to push you fowards. Thus creating many nanoseconds of telegraphed/slow movement. If you want to be able to move fowards farther, with less telegraphed movement, you need the weight on your back foot or have 50/50. Whenever the weight is on teh front foot, you will have a more defensive kendo.

You are also correct, but.. I´ve been ALWAYS told to keep more weight on the front foot. Fumikomi from jodan is (sometimes/ usually, don´t know, please correct me) done without big lunge.

Take a look at this for example: http://youtube.com/watch?v=dVY6PYLFLTg Look at Shodais last men (1.16) and how he does fumikomi. And compare it at his opponents fumikomi (same place). Shodai hardly moves forward at all while stomping. Forward movement comes after just a tiny pause. Doing this is much easier (at least for me) when I have more weight on the left foot.. This way of doing fumikomi was told to me by an awesome jodan player from Japan and I can tell that he really knows what he´s doing..

I hope this makes any sense.. I´m no jodan specialist myself and I´m just saying what I´ve been thought.. I know there are many experts here, so please correct if I´m wrong.

[MAZ77]

You are also correct, but.. I´ve been ALWAYS told to keep more weight on the front foot. Fumikomi from jodan is (sometimes/ usually, don´t know, please correct me) done without big lunge.

Take a look at this for example: http://youtube.com/watch?v=dVY6PYLFLTg Look at Shodais last men (1.16) and how he does fumikomi. And compare it at his opponents fumikomi (same place). Shodai hardly moves forward at all while stomping. Forward movement comes after just a tiny pause. Doing this is much easier (at least for me) when I have more weight on the left foot.. This way of doing fumikomi was told to me by an awesome jodan player from Japan and I can tell that he really knows what he´s doing..

I hope this makes any sense.. I´m no jodan specialist myself and I´m just saying what I´ve been thought.. I know there are many experts here, so please correct if I´m wrong.

Maybe its easier to say keep your weight on your front foot than it is to espouse the idea of 'pressure forward'. I think that most people end up just keeping too much wieght on the front foot to keep that attacking kamae. I would think that if you weight is on your front foot too much, you wouldnt really be able to be as agile as you wanted to be. I have seen many jodan kenshi in socal, but i never really asked them where their weight is. It always appears that is about even but they pressure forward.

[ahmed61086]

You are also correct, but.. I´ve been ALWAYS told to keep more weight on the front foot. Fumikomi from jodan is (sometimes/ usually, don´t know, please correct me) done without big lunge.

Take a look at this for example: http://youtube.com/watch?v=dVY6PYLFLTg Look at Shodais last men (1.16) and how he does fumikomi. And compare it at his opponents fumikomi (same place). Shodai hardly moves forward at all while stomping. Forward movement comes after just a tiny pause. Doing this is much easier (at least for me) when I have more weight on the left foot.. This way of doing fumikomi was told to me by an awesome jodan player from Japan and I can tell that he really knows what he´s doing..

I hope this makes any sense.. I´m no jodan specialist myself and I´m just saying what I´ve been thought.. I know there are many experts here, so please correct if I´m wrong.

I agree with you, and I am definitly not saying that having more weight on your front foot is wrong in any way shape or form. Unless ALL of your weight is on it.

And as we know, your kendo changes as you progress and become a higher level. I have been told, that as you progress, the weight becomes more equally balanced, giving you equal foward and backwards movement, dont know how true that is, but the only thing I disagree with is, when he said, "this allows a much faster strike and larger distance as you find it easier to step forward."

Being faster, may be true, but I dotn think getting a longer distance is even physically possible with weight on teh front.

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

I think it can be done(weight in front) if you use your front knee to drop your weight forward and then kick off, it´s not the usual thing I guess but it can be useful on some situations.

[EBP2K2]

Point 3. Its not debateable. If you have more weight on your front foot, you are able to move backwards faster, and make your ability to move foward, much harder. If you put your weight on yoru front foot, you wont be able to get the distance in your lunge/fumikomi, UNLESS you very quickly transistion your weight back onto your back foot, to push you fowards. Thus creating many nanoseconds of telegraphed/slow movement. If you want to be able to move fowards farther, with less telegraphed movement, you need the weight on your back foot or have 50/50.


not necessarily. i think:

if the weight is up front, all one has to do is pretty much lift up the foot out front to initiate the foward movement... then push with the hip and the back foot as you are in motion. i think as long as you have your back straight, there's no real problem with "telescoping"... but i agree, 70/30 balance seems odd.

better than putting weight on the back foot.. that could shred your achilles if you put too much on it.

[JSchmidt]

Mashu is right: 70/30 front/rear is often quoted in articles and books.
I find myself becoming too static when I try it and usually keep more 50/50.

[EBP2K2]

Mashu is right: 70/30 front/rear is often quoted in articles and books.
I find myself becoming too static when I try it and usually keep more 50/50.

what is the reason for preference of 70/30 in jodan no kamae? is it to better project seme perhaps? i ask because i'm wondering if there's any direct relevance for chudan, too... I find 55/45-ish balance towards the front help me with what little seme i'm trying to project in chudan. thnx.

[ahmed61086]

Mashu is right: 70/30 front/rear is often quoted in articles and books.
I find myself becoming too static when I try it and usually keep more 50/50.

I just got pwned.

[mashu19]

;303126']I think it can be done(weight in front) if you use your front knee to drop your weight forward and then kick off, it´s not the usual thing I guess but it can be useful on some situations.

this is sort of what i do, it only really comes in handy though if the oppenent isnt moving. say in an ai men situation it doesnt work as youd step to far. what i really meant though was the centre of gravity in jodan is more forwarded than chudan, so the weight on the front helps this.

this might also just be me, but leaning forward makes it harder to step back doesnt it..? just the same as leaning back makes it harder to step forward.

[EBP2K2]

this might also just be me, but leaning forward makes it harder to step back doesnt it..? just the same as leaning back makes it harder to step forward.

hm, personally i dont think that's the case. for me it's easier to hiki with slight weight bias on front (55/45), since you can push out with your front foot as you shift your body backward then as you are travelling backward, fumikomi with the same foot as you hit the target... or then again i may be doing it completely wrong, haha.

i had a very very long discussion with a lot of people about whether this "leaning" is any different than "stepping out first".... most seem to agree that the differences are minor and cosmetic, and that the underlying concept of "moving the body/hip" is the same...