:eek: I am shocked!

[ne0r]

Wow...

I watched the documentary about eiga and the world championship of 2003 in Glasgow and I noticed that all kendoka there had their left hand lifted up quite high when they striked out for men uchi or while doing suburi. I thought men uchi was like starting from chudan then striking out until jodan and then hitting actually men. And according to this when doing suburi I was told that you either strike out until jodan or completely until your shinai/bokuto reaches your back, but still going through jodan no kamae.
I watched some videos on youtube and it was all quite the same. Even most iaidoka seem to (I emphasize: seem) do it that way when they are not striking directly from jodan no kamae.

What do you think about this?

I fear that this could be seen as a bit of degeneration of our beloved art...

[absenteekendoka]

It was something I noticed at the last grading as well. There seems to be a variation in even some of the basics.....fro dojo to dojo.....I guess some of it stems from perhaps the Senseis interpretation of the art. In which case, given they are of much higher rank than most of us, cant reallly judge their interpretation. As it was unless the form was raaaadically off it seemed to be let go.

[ne0r]

Hm... I that's a good thought. But most of them aren't higher than perhaps sixth dan, aren't they? I though that exactly these people should represent textbook basics...

[EBP2K2]

Hm... I that's a good thought. But most of them aren't higher than perhaps sixth dan, aren't they? I though that exactly these people should represent textbook basics...

oh man... i'm afraid to touch this topic... x.x
all i'm going to say is, u cannot simply judge their kendo based on the videos you saw of their matches... that's not fair.

[Shazzanzzz]

People do basics differently.
Seneis do basics differenlty, depending on the dojo.

For example, in my old dojo, we used to do big basics with shinai going back pass parallel and big steps for everything. Everything is focused on balance/muscle development and from that develop your forms. Where I am practicing now, all the suburi and footwork things are more focused on form and precision and not really any power/speed development.

Depends on what the head sensei believes in teaching.

[Inner_Silence]

I was told that you either strike out until jodan or completely until your shinai/bokuto reaches your back

what????!!!!



I fear that this could be seen as a bit of degeneration of our beloved art...

I hope none of them read this...

[garyquinn1704]

what????!!!!



I hope none of them read this...



Too late, we're already here, and we're taking names :jaguar:

[absenteekendoka]

Just saying that were not in a position to judge some one of a much higher ranks interpretation of Kendo. Kendo is Kendo.......yet it becomes "your own" over time...so is someones been doing it for 20 or 30 years and they're style seems different that yours its to be expected. All Sensei seem to have different teaching methods, different ways to get you to the point were it becomes second nature. The other side of the spectrum is that we all have bad habits in our Kendo........all of us do something a little off...in one way or another. Though when you see other clubs practice, sometimes it seems really weird....mostly a "we dont do that" mind set. And teaching styles can vary so much too..........either showing or telling you or both. But the bottom line remains, like any art there can be good and bad players.....but as long as they show up....train hard...listen to Sensei and Sempai they'll always do well....just takes longer for some of us. :) I know this! LOL!

[iwamizu]

Hmmm...

As EBP2K2 said, I am also afraid to touch this topic because I know there are many higher Dan's here, with more experience, that can explain it better than me. But I'm going to reply modestly anyhow. Seniors, please be indulgent with me, I will not try to explain "how to" but more "what is" to the best of my capabilities.


So in response to ne0r

I am guessing that what you are saying is that when you look at Eiga's matches, you realize the he is not doing Men the same way your sensei is teaching you and your fellow students in the dojo, or that it is not the same men that you do in Suburi and in kirikaeshi.

Now I don't remember the correct japanese terms, but in the dojo we use the english terms of BIG men and SMALL men.

Indeed the correct Men is the one we do in Suburi and kirikaeshi, that is the Big Men. It's the one we learn at first, that we must practice our entire lives and that we must go back to intensively when our technique becomes sloppy (it allways does).

When being at the bogu stage and leading towards the Ikkiu level we learn the techniques of SMALL men, SMALL kote and SMALL do. Those are striking techniques used in jigeko and shiai. They are sort of a "condensed" version of the BIG techniques.

The BIG techniques are the foundation of all strikes in kendo. When focussing too much on jigeiko and shiai waza, SMALL techniques deteriorate and become sloppy quite quickly(until the sensei rank I guess).

For this reason the regular practice of the BIG techniques is fundamental in training. Those are the first techniques we learn for a good strong foundation in straight kendo waza.

Eiga's men strikes are correct, even perfect if I can permit myself to use the term. I can only dream of hitting that well in my life, but the only way to get there is by doing the BIG techniques. The rest will be explained gradually in due time at the dojo.

[Toshiro Mifune]

True higher ranking people have different basics but Ne0r look at the level of competition. They are high ranking Sensei many of the participants so they are able to demonstrate good basics. Maybe that suburi is more suited to their actual movement in shiai. Also think about the purpose of the tournament. It is the World Kendo Championships as opposed to local tournaments or college tournaments were the judges want to emphasize good basics. So you can relax and freak out because Japan is still the Mecca for kendo. But like others have pointed out high ranking kendoka have had years of perfecting their big suburi to allow them to do quick small movements.


People do basics differently.
Seneis do basics differenlty, depending on the dojo.

For example, in my old dojo, we used to do big basics with shinai going back pass parallel and big steps for everything. Everything is focused on balance/muscle development and from that develop your forms. Where I am practicing now, all the suburi and footwork things are more focused on form and precision and not really any power/speed development.

Depends on what the head sensei believes in teaching.

[Shazzanzzz]

Hm... I that's a good thought. But most of them aren't higher than perhaps sixth dan, aren't they? I though that exactly these people should represent textbook basics...

there's no such thing as text book basics.

Text books are written by people too anyways.

Everything depends on the opinions and intepretations of the teacher.

For example, I for one don't believe in doing suburi or men strikes the way you described it (raise to jodan). Neither does the hachidan sensei i learned from. Although I see some points of it and its benefits, I think raising the arms fully over the head is more beneficial to one's kendo.

[MAZ77]

Wow...

I watched the documentary about eiga and the world championship of 2003 in Glasgow and I noticed that all kendoka there had their left hand lifted up quite high when they striked out for men uchi or while doing suburi. I thought men uchi was like starting from chudan then striking out until jodan and then hitting actually men. And according to this when doing suburi I was told that you either strike out until jodan or completely until your shinai/bokuto reaches your back, but still going through jodan no kamae.
I watched some videos on youtube and it was all quite the same. Even most iaidoka seem to (I emphasize: seem) do it that way when they are not striking directly from jodan no kamae.

What do you think about this?

I fear that this could be seen as a bit of degeneration of our beloved art...

Honestly, I am a little confused in what you are saying. Are you saying 2 different things here? ie:

1) irrespective of how big they make their backswing, their cut is too high in regards to their arms

2) their backswing is bigger than "proper" basics teach you.

are these the two things you are saying? If so, then as for number 1, then i have no response because everybodies body is different and a square peg in a circle hole applies here. For 2, especially when doing basics, its nice to make it really big to loosen tension and make sure people are making their swings big and in a correct arc fashion. Yes, basics dictate to stop at a certain place, but if you can make it big and go all the way until the shinai hits your back, Ill bet your technique is good enough to stop at the proper point.

I know a bunch of kodansha sensei out here that always want you to make it as big as possible during basics.

[ne0r]

Ah, I am very sorry. I know this was quite a very close-minded and unfair statement from myself. I won't post in the late night again, I promise.

And thank you for not being too strict while setting me in the right place... In the end what you told me was exactly the best for me to hear.

MAZ77: What I meant was that they had their left hands quite high comparing to their right hands in the end-position of their backswing in suburi, that is all. But as others said, I figure it's only different from what we learn.

Gomen nasai!!!

[Karaken]

Just briefly.. ( Don't want to get into a lengthy discussion of various aspects or opinions of Men overall )

- You should try to watch promotion videos of high level kendoka instead of tornament videos if you want to learn CORRECT Kendo. The position might vary slightly but they mostly represent very good Kendo.

- Tornament Kendo is good for many things ( Timing, Kiai, Seme, Strategy etc.. ) but it's not the best examples of postures and wazas done correctly.
Miyazaki sensei is a very good example if you have a chance to watch both his tornament video and promotion video.

[EBP2K2]

Miyazaki sensei is a very good example if you have a chance to watch both his tornament video and promotion video.

yep yep.


and i think i know which 'suburi' clip he's talking about... they do that to warm up their rotator cuffs... thus swinging all the way back to hit the back with shinai.

[garyquinn1704]

hey ne0r,

am I the only one confused here? Are you talking about the short clips of the Glasgow club practicing/warming up or the clips of some of the world's finest Kenshi in competition. I don't mean to be confrontational but if it's club practice then, like people have said: different dojo + different sensei = different practice. In that case I can only assure you that from my limited experience the club in question is very much legitimate and is very respectful of perspective brought from visiting sensei/kohai.

If it's Eiga vs Kim(?) et al, then we're in murky waters. Not to denegrate, ungraded as I am, are you on speaking terms with any of the world's top 100 (perhaps 1000) shia Kendoka? I am usually wrong but I'd imagine they are too busy to be on here.

Please don't take offence at my question. I am asking if we can even comprehend how such talented Kendoka come upon successful shia technique, let alone what authorises us to judge it.

[ne0r]

hey ne0r,

am I the only one confused here? Are you talking about the short clips of the Glasgow club practicing/warming up or the clips of some of the world's finest Kenshi in competition. I don't mean to be confrontational but if it's club practice then, like people have said: different dojo + different sensei = different practice. In that case I can only assure you that from my limited experience the club in question is very much legitimate and is very respectful of perspective brought from visiting sensei/kohai.

If it's Eiga vs Kim(?) et al, then we're in murky waters. Not to denegrate, ungraded as I am, are you on speaking terms with any of the world's top 100 (perhaps 1000) shia Kendoka? I am usually wrong but I'd imagine they are too busy to be on here.

Please don't take offence at my question. I am asking if we can even comprehend how such talented Kendoka come upon successful shia technique, let alone what authorises us to judge it.

I was watching the documentary under the title "a single blow" which shows the WKC in Glasgow. When the warmup was shown you could see people doing suburi and they looked different from what I learned: They, too, did the "big" swing all the way to their backs, but instead of going through jodan each time (as I learned it: you simply swing it back, but you have to watch out for going through proper jodan) their arms looked different from what I learned at the "top" of the movement : the left hand was, compared to the right hand, quite high, i.e. higher than the right hand unlike jodan-no-kamae (as I know it).

I was a bit shocked because it was different from what I thought it had to look like... and because I had the impression that really a lot of kenshi do it this way. I didn't mean to offend anyone and say they did it wrong, I rather wanted an explanation why they did it that way...
Sorry for confusing everyone.

And I agree with you, garyquinn1704, that I am not in the position to judge and that other sensei just teach it differently...

[EBP2K2]

I was watching the documentary under the title "a single blow" which shows the WKC in Glasgow. When the warmup was shown you could see people doing suburi and they looked different from what I learned: They, too, did the "big" swing all the way to their backs, but instead of going through jodan each time (as I learned it: you simply swing it back, but you have to watch out for going through proper jodan) their arms looked different from what I learned at the "top" of the movement : the left hand was, compared to the right hand, quite high, i.e. higher than the right hand unlike jodan-no-kamae (as I know it).

I was a bit shocked because it was different from what I thought it had to look like... and because I had the impression that really a lot of kenshi do it this way. I didn't mean to offend anyone and say they did it wrong, I rather wanted an explanation why they did it that way...
Sorry for confusing everyone.

And I agree with you, garyquinn1704, that I am not in the position to judge and that other sensei just teach it differently...

i think they are doing a warmup suburi (forget what it's called... joge-suburi, i think?)... it's okay to swing all the way to their back... they are warming up their shoulder, rotator cuffs, arms, etc.

as far as i can remember all the clubs i've been to do this as part of their taiso before doing other forms of suburi.

[ne0r]

Erm, that was not quite what I meant. Were doing jogeburi, too, but we are told to:
1) swing up
2) pass through jodan (!)
3) relax our arms
4) bring the arms back into jodan position (!)
5) swing down

Ok, this isn't so much emphasized when we're doing jogeburi, rather when we're doing shomen suburi.

And I spotted kenshi doing this quite differently... i.e. at points 2 and 4 they were not quite in the jodan position I know but had their left hands higher then their right hands.

[EBP2K2]

Erm, that was not quite what I meant. Were doing jogeburi, too, but we are told to:
1) swing up
2) pass through jodan (!)
3) relax our arms
4) bring the arms back into jodan position (!)
5) swing down

Ok, this isn't so much emphasized when we're doing jogeburi, rather when we're doing shomen suburi.

And I spotted kenshi doing this quite differently... i.e. at points 2 and 4 they were not quite in the jodan position I know but had their left hands higher then their right hands.

bottom line is they are not doing anything wrong. IMO those kind of minute differences dont matter too much as far as you are able to understand the concept behind it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I've never been taught suburi that way. It's not a transition in and out of jodan, it's a swing all by itself. Swing up big, get the left hand overhead, swing down with a big motion. Sounds like your step 3 will cause a pause in the motion.

[Shinsengumi77]

I understand the concepts you've listed, but when I was taught Joge-suburi they said it was just an emphasis on big swings and a way to get the shoulders limbered up. I'm only an amateur, so I really can't say my words are iron, but I've trained with three sensei and all of them did Joge-suburi the same. Big swing up, make the tip of the shinai smack your back, and big swing down to about gedan height.

[ne0r]

Perhaps I am mixing things up a bit and what I listed was only intended for shomen-suburi.

And Neil: As I understood it there should be no pause in the movement, it should only emphasize hitting out of jodan and not out of a position between jodan and the position when your shinai reaches your back.

Ah, I am confused and confusing...

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think you've just been taught differently than I have. We don't even mention jodan to our beginners, don't teach it as a kamae so instructing them to transition through it for any suburi isn't done.

[ne0r]

I'll try to describe how I understood the movement:
I think the point is that if you start hitting from the "back position" your left hand tends to go upwards and the kensen tends to move more circularly than elliptically (and we are told that the kensen should move in an ellipse, going the shortest way to the men). So we are told to go through jodan properly while hitting. And to achieve this we have to first get into jodan and from there we can hit (shomen). When I was told the last thing my shomen improved (so I think) a lot. I think it makes the shinai easier to control because it has less momentum than if it was swung the whole way from the back.
Could be that I understood something wrong.

Edit:

I think you've just been taught differently than I have. We don't even mention jodan to our beginners, don't teach it as a kamae so instructing them to transition through it for any suburi isn't done.

I think so, too.

[slidercrank]

I was watching the documentary under the title "a single blow" which shows the WKC in Glasgow. When the warmup was shown you could see people doing suburi and they looked different from what I learned:

Why don't you post the link to the YouTube video and the time on the video when this warm-up is shown? I'm really curious to see the kind of the suburi that has made you so shocked and confused. It will also make it easier for people to see what you're talking about.

For me it's been difficult to understand your words. Like Neil sensei said, suburi and jodan are 2 words that don't occur in a single sentence, for most people.

[Kirinhale]

He probably meant this :

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TWjgAlzGUxg

in the first 30 seconds or so you can see what he means, the left hand being higher than the right.

[ne0r]

Yes, this is what I meant.

Please just forget what I posted... It's really just being taught to me in another way... I have pretty much overreacted with my stupid post...

I just thought (in my stupidity) that they would probably do their "big" men strikes just as they did their suburi (but with a smaller upward movement). And in the video they didn't do their suburi the way I know it but they had their left hands higher than their right hands. And I thought that their big men strike would look the same (just with a smaller upward movement).

Here is a video that demonstrates how I imagine a big men strike:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sHTz1h-GT0Y

[Neil Gendzwill]

That's the kihon kata. We cut the same way in normal kata, never more than 45 degrees back. Suburi with shinai we usually ask for a bigger motion.

[ne0r]

Yes, we usually do a bigger motion, too.

I have attached a picture to explain what I mean. It shows two different types of the end position of the upward movement.

I thought that number 2 was a mistake?

[rainmaker]

Even thought first photo is ideal, second motion is also forgivable as long as it is not more than 180degree. That is what I was told.

However, you should do "Your OWN KENDO." If you are beginner, you should ask your sensei since your sensei should know where you are and teach you what you can absorbe. Yes, big men is very important and that is why they teach lot of big men until you are ready for shomen. Even big men, there are many different ways of doing it depend on timing.

Ask your sensei....


Yes, we usually do a bigger motion, too.

I have attached a picture to explain what I mean. It shows two different types of the end position of the upward movement.

I thought that number 2 was a mistake?

[ne0r]

Thank you for your answer^^

I will ask my sensei.

[Shazzanzzz]

Yes, we usually do a bigger motion, too.

I have attached a picture to explain what I mean. It shows two different types of the end position of the upward movement.

I thought that number 2 was a mistake?

I've been told to do your #2 on purpose to work out the wrist and forarms more during suburi. And I've been told that was wrong by another sensei, haha. It's not just that either, footwork timing is different depending on the dojo too...

Just practice the way your sensei teaches you. You can try something else later on when you're experienced enough.

btw, from my experiences so far, it's not how far back you swing the shinai that you need to watch out for. You should watch out for if your elbows are opening up too much and/or if you are opening up your grip (with pinky) too much. Some sensei's style of teaching is just to eliminate those problems by having you not swinging back. Some chooses to have you learn about it and correct it.

[ne0r]

btw, from my experiences so far, it's not how far back you swing the shinai that you need to watch out for. You should watch out for if your elbows are opening up too much and/or if you are opening up your grip (with pinky) too much. Some sensei's style of teaching is just to eliminate those problems by having you not swinging back. Some chooses to have you learn about it and correct it.

I agree.

I can imagine that #2 is done to strengthen the wrist movement. My sensei sets great store by BIG men cuts^^ so we're taught differently (#1 + large backswing). But considering the fact that most men cuts in tournaments (on a national or international level) are sashi men, this would make sense to me.

And I think if someone does his suburi like #2 that doesn't mean he does his big men cut that way.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Some of this stuff also depends on what purpose the suburi are being used for. Jogeburi/o-suburi are thought of as warm-up exercises by many, and so the idea is to get as big a range of motion as possible. Sometimes we use them to help centre the swing motion, so asking someone to hit their butt with the shinai provides tactile feedback that the cut is centred (at least at that point). Othertimes we're just trying to get them to get their hands overhead, and no matter how often you ask they are too small, so "hit your butt with the shinai" gets their hands back far enough.

The downside is that swinging that big can cause your left arm to go too straight or your grip to open up. As a result, If I'm teaching just a normal shomenuchi, I ask for the hands to end up parallel to the floor at the top of the swing. In shiai of course it's rare to see someone swing that big.

[Rob W.]

Ne0r, no reason to call yourself stupid, look at what you've learned and all the great stuff everybody is talking about because of your question. Humbleness is a good quality, but cartoonish over-humbleness that prevents you from asking questions won't get you anywhere, in kendo or in life. Good luck and enjoy your training.

[Winter516]

if someone can swing that big and still get ippon in shiai, good for them, lol