Migi Jodan / Hidari Jodan

[skilled]

Could you mention advantages or disadvantages ?

[Sparv]

Good question! The answers will certainly be very interresting.
I'm not a jodan player and only a beginner, but the first thing which came to my mind is that a hidari katate kote is easier with the usual jodan (BTW, is it the migi or the hidari?).

[Nayuta]

Could you mention advantages or disadvantages ?

Several kinds of Jodan are there like the below.

1. Hidari Jodan with both hands(left hand front, left leg front)
2. Migi Jodan with both hands(right hand front, right leg front)
3. Hidari Jodan with one hand(left hand front, left leg front)
4. Hidari Jodan with one hand(left hand front, right leg front)
5. Migi Jodan with one hand(right hand front, right leg front)
6. Migi Jodan with one hand(right hand front, left leg front)

I think Kamae itself has no advantage and not so important. If there are advantage in kamae, must be changed by opponent's style or Kamae, by situation, etc. There are different about Kamae itself or how to use Kamae by each person, it's not possibility to take Kamae complete in the same.

More saying, Kamae means all process till hitting, not constant figure. If I say that like the below, it'll be perhaps understandable for you.

"Can you tell me advantage of Chudan?"

Jodan is not especially unique, it's usual in the same as Chudan, I think.

Thanks.

[skilled]

Very good point Nayuta !

The exact answer i was lookin for :)

[Winter516]

i dont quite get the method for migi jodan (with right hand forward) do you have to have the tip angled forward so the right is infront of the left, or switch hands...?
perhaps thats a question for the sensei...

[Nayuta]

switch hands...?

YES.

For example, Kamae of Shidachi in 1st Kata is not proper Migi-Jodan, when I am saying only figure. (I think this is not important for 1st Kata though.)

[ahmed61086]

I think Kamae itself has no advantage and not so important.



I disagree with this statement.

Every Kamae has sometype of advantage in some some sense over another, but also a disadvantage. If this were not true, there would be not point in ever changing ones Kamae.

Jodan cannot do what Chudan can do exactly, and vice verca. Neither can nito do what Chudan can do and vice verca.

To make a quick example. Whenever one switches the position of the feet, front to back, without switching the hands, the ability to do certain techniques become difficult, due to biomechanics.

[Nayuta]

I disagree with this statement.

Every Kamae has sometype of advantage in some some sense over another, but also a disadvantage. If this were not true, there would be not point in ever changing ones Kamae.

Jodan cannot do what Chudan can do exactly, and vice verca. Neither can nito do what Chudan can do and vice verca.

To make a quick example. Whenever one switches the position of the feet, front to back, without switching the hands, the ability to do certain techniques become difficult, due to biomechanics.

Could you explain more concrete example?

I seem that is different about understanding what advantage meant.
for example, I and you cannot do the same action and the same Kamae completely. What you want to say is your Kamae only, I think.

I agree there are some kind of how easy to do in each Kamae though. Is this your meant advantage?

[kurisu]

All you need to know about kamae can be found here:

http://www.freewebs.com/ninjabob/kenjutsu.htm

[tango]

ok, i gotta ask....

skilled --- what is your current kendo rank? it seems the last I figured, you were maybe 2.kyu or 1.kyu...

and, even if you've managed to make it to 1.dan yet, i'm curious as to why you keep bringing up these kinds of topics...
you've gone from talking about kaeshi-waza to wanting to discuss zanshin after tsuki, to morote vs katate tsuki, to jodan -- touching on nito -- to gyaku dou, and now it's hidari jodan vs. migi jodan...

so anyway, i'm just curious why an 1.kyu/1.dan level is interested in these topics because it's not something they normally practice (not something they, arguably, should practice at that point, IMO..)..

I'm getting the sensation that an 1.kyu/1.dan starts these threads to get advice/thoughts, then shows up at practice and goes into migi jodan, trying to pull off some kind of kaeshi-katate tsuki-gyaku dou because he thinks it's cool and because he thinks he's actually experienced enough to be fooling around with that stuff.

hope i'm wrong....

[Kagerou]

I'm getting the sensation that an 1.kyu/1.dan starts these threads to get advice/thoughts, then shows up at practice and goes into migi jodan, trying to pull off some kind of kaeshi-katate tsuki-gyaku dou because he thinks it's cool and because he thinks he's actually experienced enough to be fooling around with that stuff.

hope i'm wrong....

You mean we're not supposed to do that? Dang...maybe that's why my sensei hospitalized me for a month. I thought he had home troubles.

On a serious note I have the opposite problem. I keep having other people teach me things that are above my level and then my sensei tells me not to worry about that right now. Well he uses somewhat different language than that aimed at the person showing me. I appreciate their effort and time but he's right....one person is trying to teach me how to sidestep and strike soku men.

[tango]

honestly, i can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious...

all i'm saying is that some of the topics this guy is bringing up are things which, in my experience at least (which is admittedly limited), are not normally practiced by or taught to 1.dan and below.... so I'm curious why he brings these subjects up. If it's just for shits and giggles and to get discussion going --- ok, fine, whatever.

if it's some kind of attempt to get "online insruction" from a bunch of keyboard warriors like us... if it's some attempt to learn something that his sensei wouldn't normally teach him (and maybe that's a question he might be able to provide an honest answer for).... then .... ?

like i said, i'm just curious why he's bringing up such topics...

[tango]

What sensei teaches or encourages gyaku dou as a regular waza to 1.kyu? And i'm not talking about warm-up drills or whatever..
What sensei normally teaches or encourages katate tsuki to 1.kyu?
What sensei normally teaches kaeshi waza to 1.kyu?
Even on the question of jodan, of course there are "exceptions," but by and large, I don't know any sensei who regularly and/or normally teaches and encourages 1.kyu-level guys to use jodan.... or nito.

again, if he's just bringing up this stuff to kickstart discussion, who cares?
I really don't have any idea if that's the case or if he has some alterior motive... that's the only reason I'm asking.

[skilled]

I think he was being sarcastic ..

and yes you are wrong .

and no i'm not having online instruction , that's just stupid my friend , if "online kendo instruction" 'd exist perhaps you could teach me kendo via e-mail dont you think ? xD

wanna practice kirikaeshi via internet? xD

let's have a shiai give me your e-mail xD -_-

[tango]

telling me I'm wrong doesn't answer my question....

[skilled]

why are you in this forum then? I will remind you ok? TO DISCUSS ABOUT KENDO!!!!!!!!!!

[Kagerou]

honestly, i can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious...



+rep for almost making me spew my coffee.

Yes I was being sarcastic.
I'm Canadian it's what we do...ask Neil.

[neko kenshi]

I don't think there's anything wrong with curiosity. I'd be interested in learning about things I'm not ready to or interested in implementing as well. I think if he were trying to use the things he's learning, that would be different, but the impression I get is that he's just curious. It's like watching and studying a higher level shiai. Are you going to mimick it? no, but you're still interested.

[tango]

why are you in this forum then? I will remind you ok? TO DISCUSS ABOUT KENDO!!!!!!!!!!

why do you want to know advantages and disadvantages for hidari jodan and migi jodan?

[tango]

I don't think there's anything wrong with curiosity. I'd be interested in learning about things I'm not ready to or interested in implementing as well. I think if he were trying to use the things he's learning, that would be different, but the impression I get is that he's just curious. It's like watching and studying a higher level shiai. Are you going to mimick it? no, but you're still interested.

i completely agree!

[skilled]

none of your business tango xD

[Winter516]

so anyway, i'm just curious why an 1.kyu/1.dan level is interested in these topics because it's not something they normally practice (not something they, arguably, should practice at that point, IMO..)..

Ok the time has come... i have seen this right across kendo world forums and just ignored it, for too long !!! i thought it would be something really simple (which it is) so i didnt ask... today i shall

WTF does IMO mean !?!?!!??!?!?

[tango]

IMO = in my opinion

[Nayuta]

for example, I just try to communicate. I'm interested in all opinion. I don't teach you something because I'm not your coach. You should not teach me something because you are not my coach. Though I learn something from you. Though you perhaps learn something from me. This is the effect of communication. When there are many kinds of opinions and questions, I think it is good for communication. Question does not need the cause(or reason), rather there is question because person wants to know the cause(or reason) usually, I think. We don't need to feel malice in anyone's opinion.

Is that wrong? However I know my expression is not enough to do always.

[Nayuta]

In a word, do we need qualification in this forum? No, I do not care qualification in this forum even if you are Hachi-Dan Hanshi. How you feel opinion itself is the most important than qualification, I think.

[Kagerou]

In a word, do we need qualification in this forum? No, I do not care qualification in this forum even if you are Hachi-Dan Hanshi. How you feel opinion itself is the most important than qualification, I think.

You are right Nayuta. Qualifications don't matter here because unless you know the person you're talking to you can't prove it.

I don't know you so I can't confirm your qualifications.
I also don't know any of the senseis here personally so I can only hope they are what they say and Kendo World isn't some big joke being played on me. (no offence - just using you guys as an example)

I think what Tango is concerned about is people trying to learn things over the internet.
Opinion questions are good, so are general interest questions.

If your sensei doesn't teach you something then there is a reason for that and you should respect them enough to wait until they say you are ready.

[verissimus]

Ok the time has come... i have seen this right across kendo world forums and just ignored it, for too long !!! i thought it would be something really simple (which it is) so i didnt ask... today i shall

WTF does IMO mean !?!?!!??!?!?

While we're at it, can someone please tell me what xD means and why it's being used as punctuation...

[Nayuta]

If your sensei doesn't teach you something then there is a reason for that and you should respect them enough to wait until they say you are ready.

I agree especially this explanation. I think so too.

[turboyoshi]

While we're at it, can someone please tell me what xD means and why it's being used as punctuation...

It's a smiley face. All the kids are doing it. xD and XD is the same as LOL/lol

It's like :laugh: but the x represents closed eyes cause you're lol so hard.

sean

[mashu19]

What sensei teaches or encourages gyaku dou as a regular waza to 1.kyu? And i'm not talking about warm-up drills or whatever..
What sensei normally teaches or encourages katate tsuki to 1.kyu?
What sensei normally teaches kaeshi waza to 1.kyu?
Even on the question of jodan, of course there are "exceptions," but by and large, I don't know any sensei who regularly and/or normally teaches and encourages 1.kyu-level guys to use jodan.... or nito.
.

actually my teacher taught me all those things, except katate tuki, i just do that to the wall sometimes. but my teacher thinks that its good to know these things, as if youre in a tight game, knowing this could surprise your opponent and give you the upper hand.

but that being said if skilled is here just to ask a question, maybe learn something he didnt know, what so wrong with that? maybe hes just out here asking the questions were all afriad to ask as we will get replies like yours, thus discouraging us. theres nothing wrong with learning. knowledge is power my friend. and ill also quote from confucious.

`Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous.`

[Kenshi]

why are you in this forum then? I will remind you ok? TO DISCUSS ABOUT KENDO!!!!!!!!!!

If you are as this obnoxious in real life as you are on this forum its no wonder you have to turn to the medium of using the internet to discuss stuff as you probably have few friends left in the real world to chat with.

[verissimus]

actually my teacher taught me all those things, except katate tuki, i just do that to the wall sometimes. but my teacher thinks that its good to know these things, as if youre in a tight game, knowing this could surprise your opponent and give you the upper hand.


Like everything else, there are two sides to this coin. I was "taught" these too, to the extent that these techniques were (and sometimes still are) demonstrated to me, but if I tried them in keiko more than a few times, I'd be told to stick to basic, straightforward motion. I think the idea is to be so used to basic strikes that when you're in a "tight game" and helplessly floundering around against a far more experienced opponent, you don't do precisely what your suggesting. You could end up hurting your opponent, or yourself, with that.


`Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous.`

Without putting words into his mouth, I think the first part of your quote is exactly what tango is suggesting.

[tango]

actually my teacher taught me all those things, except katate tuki, i just do that to the wall sometimes. but my teacher thinks that its good to know these things, as if youre in a tight game, knowing this could surprise your opponent and give you the upper hand.

that's fine. who would have a problem with that?
i tend to think maybe it's not so common that kyu-level guys are taught such things, but i didn't mean to imply that I think it doesn't happen. it's certainly unclear whether skilled is in the same boat, though.



but that being said if skilled is here just to ask a question, maybe learn something he didnt know, what so wrong with that? maybe hes just out here asking the questions were all afriad to ask as we will get replies like yours, thus discouraging us. theres nothing wrong with learning. knowledge is power my friend. and ill also quote from confucious.

`Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous.`

quite frankly, i'd like to know what his sensei thinks about the topic...
if he took the approach:
"I am learning jodan from my sensei. I asked him about hidari jodan vs. migi jodan and he says XYZ ..... anybody have any further thoughts on that?"
... then I don't know why anybody would have a problem giving thoughts.

Absent that kind of approach, I get the feeling that what he "learns" from people on this board will translate into his trying something out that, at his level, maybe he doesn't need to concern himself with. Maybe it's something his sensei doesn't want him to know/learn at this point.
As veris just pointed out --- maybe he decides to try something out and one of his dojomates gets hurt in the process.

What good would that be?

In the past, we've had a 3.kyu-ish level guy in our dojo who, in jigeiko with the instructors, does nice, basic kendo... and then when he gets in front of a non-instructor, you look up and he's doing [or trying to do] stuff he doesn't need to do. I've seen an 1.kyu try tsuki against a 4.kyu, miss horribly, really hurt the guy, and then the guy never showed back up to class.

Who benefitted from this ass clown 1.kyu thinking it would be a good idea to practice something he's never been taught to do properly?

I don't know any sensei who would use katate tsuki against 4.kyu --- so why should an 1.kyu think it would be ok for him to do it?

Some of skilled's threads --- not all of them, but just some --- remind me of an average kyu-level guy who sees some ass-whipper using nito, decides it looks cool, and then decides to ask about it because he wants to "try it out," and my opinion is that, by and large, such a person needs to be told "forget about nito.. just get the basics of using one sword down first.."

I didn't mean to hijack this whole thread, so apologies all around...
I've given quite enough of my opinion on this..

[mashu19]

Maybe this isnt the right place to say it, but how many people here have actually been seriously injured playing kendo? im going to leave tuki out of this question cause even experienced people have missed. though i dont think kendo is that dangerous at all, so if everyones on about safety, why are you hitting each other with shinais?

on another note, i might know how skilled feels here or what hes trying to do. maybe he will try it out, but if he has any sence he will do it in a controlled situation where he can practice it, so like that fool you just said about with the tuki inccident. but even then, i dont think you can judge someone by their grading with out seeing their kendo at all. otherwise i could say to you(as your profile says 3dan) that you still equivalent to a high school student. so judging how good someone is by their grade without seeing their kendo s just wrong if you ask me.

when it all comes down to it, skilled should just ask his teacher, but maybe hes shy, or maybe his teacher tells him to wait til hes better, who knows. but do you have the right to not tell him too? yes. everyone here has that right. but if you choose to reply, dont go bagging him out. after all it could be just a harmless`i wanna know this, can someone explain how its dont` question with no real intention whatsoever.

[Nayuta]

If I say that you must not think such things because you are only 3rd-Dan, how do you think about? It is nonsense though I could see your worrying. Do you think we must obtain Dan without fail after we practice enoughly. To obtain Dan or not are freedom in each person. I think your point had been different.

Your worrying should depend on each person, not Kyu and Dan, and there is no end to that.

[verissimus]

<Said too much already>

[tango]

i dont think you can judge someone by their grading with out seeing their kendo at all. otherwise i could say to you(as your profile says 3dan) that you still equivalent to a high school student. so judging how good someone is by their grade without seeing their kendo s just wrong if you ask me.

when it all comes down to it, skilled should just ask his teacher, but maybe hes shy, or maybe his teacher tells him to wait til hes better, who knows. but do you have the right to not tell him too? yes. everyone here has that right. but if you choose to reply, dont go bagging him out. after all it could be just a harmless`i wanna know this, can someone explain how its dont` question with no real intention whatsoever.

you do realize that my initial post in this thread was a question on why he was bringing up these topics... not that he didn't need to be bringing them up... but rather, essentially, a simple "why do you ask?"

and of course, i'm just curious as to what his current rank is, as i think in an old post, he said he was an 1.kyu and close to testing for 1.dan...

[tango]

<Said too much already>

Yeah, me, too.

Soooo.... what's up next, skilled? ---- lemme guess....


yokomen?

[skilled]

bingo ! xD really xD!

I was about to post about Yoko Men seriously.

OK , I ask because I wanna know what are your thoughts

I think you're overreacting , why do you care so much about my posts ?

and yeah , you have never seen my kendo .

So please , stop assuming I might kill some people if I try Tsuki or some superpowerful technique xD

by the way I never have hurt people when I practice those techniques in Geiko or Shiai , and I think I have the "skill" to avoid hurting anyone .

And yes , my Sensei teach me those techniques but It doesn't mean i don't practice Kote Men or Do or Kirikaeshi ..etc etc...

and AGAIN : I ask because I wanna know your thoughts

by the way

Is it valid in Jodan no Kamae if your opponent goes for Hidari Kote, to release the left hand and go for men using only right hand?

I did that once and I'm not sure if it's valid ..

by the way I've been doing kendo for 2 years but recently this year I'm worrying about testing .

Maybe if I would tested before I might be Nidan now .. =)

I don't care so much about grades , but I have to test anyway.(but I still care ) xD


Maybe this isnt the right place to say it, but how many people here have actually been seriously injured playing kendo? im going to leave tuki out of this question cause even experienced people have missed. though i dont think kendo is that dangerous at all, so if everyones on about safety, why are you hitting each other with shinais?

on another note, i might know how skilled feels here or what hes trying to do. maybe he will try it out, but if he has any sence he will do it in a controlled situation where he can practice it, so like that fool you just said about with the tuki inccident. but even then, i dont think you can judge someone by their grading with out seeing their kendo at all. otherwise i could say to you(as your profile says 3dan) that you still equivalent to a high school student. so judging how good someone is by their grade without seeing their kendo s just wrong if you ask me.

when it all comes down to it, skilled should just ask his teacher, but maybe hes shy, or maybe his teacher tells him to wait til hes better, who knows. but do you have the right to not tell him too? yes. everyone here has that right. but if you choose to reply, dont go bagging him out. after all it could be just a harmless`i wanna know this, can someone explain how its dont` question with no real intention whatsoever.


Yes Mashu , Kendo is not that Dangerous , you have to be very unskilled to hurt someone like that .

I ask my Sensei , I just want some thoughts about it .

Because I'm not sure about some rules when it comes to Shiai judgement.

+rep for that my friend

[Koffein]

by the way I've been doing kendo for 2 years ...

Maybe if I would tested before I might be Nidan now .. =)


yeah, right, dream on... :laugh:

[skilled]

well Shodan xD but how much time you have to wait after Shodan to test for Nidan?

[mashu19]

yeah, right, dream on... :laugh:

i dunno, a couple of guys in my club will test for nidan in march and they have only been playing for a 2 yrs when they get to march. it all depends on the person and how much they practice. though it does need good timing with startng close to the grading tests and what not....

[mashu19]

well Shodan xD but how much time you have to wait after Shodan to test for Nidan?

i think you gotta wait a yr.. not entirly sure though.

[manjisan]

It's at least a year.

[CH0ZEN]

Isn't there some kind of age requirement as well? I would think one would have to have the maturity to match the rank.

[Kagerou]

Isn't there some kind of age requirement as well? I would think one would have to have the maturity to match the rank.

Ask the Japanese high school kids who are nidans...so no there isn't.

[mashu19]

and the super junior high school kids who are already nidans

[manjisan]

There is an age limit for getting a dan, but it is very low because there are lots of children who practice Kendo since they were young.

[nonamehandle]

If I say that you must not think such things because you are only 3rd-Dan, how do you think about? It is nonsense though I could see your worrying. Do you think we must obtain Dan without fail after we practice enoughly. To obtain Dan or not are freedom in each person. I think your point had been different.

Your worrying should depend on each person, not Kyu and Dan, and there is no end to that.

i think you and Mashu19 are trying to say similar things...let me just chime in and say that though in principle (general sense) i agree with both of you, but in the specific case of Skilled, he does irritate me, so my gut reaction is to emphatize/sympathize with Tango.

Skilled has shown himself to be generally obnoxious and infantile in his posts when people have replied with stuff that he does not like, both publicly and also via PMs and reps. he has no right to request that everyone treat his post in a positive manner; there will be some who will take negatively to it. he has to learn to roll with the blows. i consider Skilled's age and lack of experience and "try" to cast a wide net of understanding...but i can also see easily why others will get upset...not necessarily the questions themselves, but in the way that the questions are phrased and in the way that Skilled replies to the posts from others.

his posts show little 禮 and his replies to other's post (that he does not like) show a lack of 禮 as well.

[Nayuta]

i think you and Mashu19 are trying to say similar things...let me just chime in and say that though in principle (general sense) i agree with both of you, but in the specific case of Skilled, he does irritate me, so my gut reaction is to emphatize/sympathize with Tango.

Skilled has shown himself to be generally obnoxious and infantile in his posts when people have replied with stuff that he does not like, both publicly and also via PMs and reps. he has no right to request that everyone treat his post in a positive manner; there will be some who will take negatively to it. he has to learn to roll with the blows. i consider Skilled's age and lack of experience and "try" to cast a wide net of understanding...but i can also see easily why others will get upset...not necessarily the questions themselves, but in the way that the questions are phrased and in the way that Skilled replies to the posts from others.

his posts show little 禮 and his replies to other's post (that he does not like) show a lack of 禮 as well.

OK, I could understand finally, why some person are irritated.

I think it is necessary not to reply against irritated question, then I will do that, because I feel a little bit why he had such question, after my last post.

Thanks, nonamehandle.