Favorite Type of Shinai

[stakenaka]

I am just curious, but what is your shinai preference?

Scott

[durrell4]

Better ballance and feel. Great for Shiai

[tetsuoxb]

Pardon my lack of knowledge, because one of those words in your list may very well equal chokuto.... but if not I really think it should be on the list.

Being a North American kendoka, most people buy shinai from Eguchi, Tozando, E-bogu, or kendoshop. Out of those 4, the most expensive shinai (not counting e-bogu's akatsuki custom mades) are all madake shinais in the chokuto style. E-bogu just started carrying a chokuto shinai, Eguchi's king of the line is simply called madake, and Tozando's tenryu is a chokuto I believe.

I have one of the Eguchi madake shinais that I bought to strengthen my tenuchi (because a chokuto is all about tip work) and to say I had a nearly hundred dollar shinai, and I must say, they do bring the sense of one shot kendo into play. The center of mass is so far down the pipe that swinging it around errantly without beastly strength to bring it back to center _will_ leave you open (in my experience).

That being said, I am going to vote for good old dobari shinais. You can get them cheap or expensive, with tons of features like bio treated, ect.

I am interested to know the shinai preference of some of the Japanese pros. Anyone know?

[Shinyaxyz]

Koto and Chokuto is the same type of shinai, I believe.
There was a very interesting website of shinia shop only for order-made. It was called Akatsuki shinai. I don't know where the website is now. I saw an article about it before on Kendo Nippon. One shinai cost about 100yen, which is really expensive.

What the problem of expensive shinai is..... it sometimes breaks only by one shot. That's one of the most sad moments of kendo.

I recently received my new shinai from Japan.
I really like koto-style shinai.
The description of the shinai is; Koto-style, 38, 700g, with 36-size tsuka.
It's actually really heavy, but my important tournament was over, so I started training with it.

[ben]

Chokuto for everything except shiai, when I use dobari. One day I hope to be skillful enough to use chokuto all the time.

b

[tetsuoxb]

Shinya,

You can buy akatsuki from e-bogu.com.

http://www.e-bogu.com/akatsukishinai.html

They are about 100 dollars... so a little bit more than ichiman en.

The eigo akatsuki homepage is here:
http://www.at80.jp/shinai/

Jae Chung, UF's senior student, bought one for kataoka sensei, who loved it a great deal.

Jp.

[cklin]

Lumber is Lumber.

Preferences in this respect are kind of limiting, IMHO.

[Shinyaxyz]

Thank you JP.

But, I was wondering where Japanese page was gone....

Well, preference is preference.
I had a chance to ask Mr. Masahiro Miyazaki what kind of shinai he usually uses the other day. He said he used a regular $40-50 shinai.

The types of shinai are very important, but we ourselves and our kendo itself are much more important, I think.

[ben]

Well, you know, boys need their toys...

;)

b

[Shinyaxyz]

yeah, that's true.....

my first koto shinai was given from my teacher.
Originally, he was given from Mr. Nishikawa, I think. He made a couple of copies of the shinai. He gave it to me and I'm keeping it in order that I can start using its copy when my kendo becomes good enough.

[ben]

That raises a good question Shinyaxyz (maybe deserves its own thread): How long can you keep a shinai for? In Aus if you keep a shinai for too long it will eventually dry out and explode the first time you use it. Shinais aren't violins (ie get better with age), I see them as perishable (like milk). And I don't mean from use, just age.

What do others think? Am I right or wrong?

b

[alexpollijr]

I've used dobari, chokuto and standard shinai so far.
My conclusion is that what really matters in the end is the wielder's technique. I could notice the 'balance' difference but that was hardly important amidst the heat of shiai.

I now hold a hand-me-down cf39 hasegawa from my sensei and I'm finding it great despite the comments against it. My fellow dojo mates also didn't complain.:rolleyes:

[stakenaka]

Ben,
It has been my experience that Shinai can be kept for long periods of time, and they usually break from usage rather than old age (Of course, you cannot keep a shinai for decades and expect it last in practice. There is some upper limit but I haven't found it yet. I would guess 2-4 years in storage. If it was to last this long you must either live in a humid environment or you have to oil your shinai frequently.)

Scott

[John W]

I am in the same boat as Ben. Koto type shinai for everything but shiai in which case I use dobari.:)

[Antonin]

Well, call me strange, but I prefer the standard type... Oh, dobari is OK, but the classical style is perfectly fine for me !
Antonin

[mingshi]

If you can't kill, don't blame the sword!

It's very sad that, being a poor student, I cannot afford to keep a range of shinai/bogu and choose between them
:.(

[Shinyaxyz]

Ben>

I don't know how long I can keep it. But, I'm thinking to make a copies of the shinai, despite using the shinai my teacher gave me.
So, it won't be a big problem, and I can keep the master one forever.

Well, what do you think the length of shinai? I'm currently using 38 for my training of getting the sense of seme. It's really tough to make another step aginst teachers, becasue their seme is really strong, and they would hit me instantly if I make a careless step. To hit men, I have to take another tiny step, without losing center.

I remember some teachers in Japan are using much shorter shinai. For example, Mr. Sakudo uses 36 or 37 shinai for practice.

[olaf]

Come on fellas - this is begining to sound like that "can-you-play-60%-better-without-underwear" thread.

At our level - and I don't mean to disparage anyone's mastery of kendo - cklin is right; a shinai is no more than a stick of bamboo.

I don't think an acute difference in weight distribution, for instance, will miraculously enlighten you about seme...nor will it have a dramatic impact on your performance.

For me, instead of thinking, "I play best with dobari", or "I go with koto all the way", I like to pick up different shinai, try them out, and see what feels good. That's part of the reason I don't like buying shinai online. You can't judge a shinai by it's name - or what "category" it belongs to. Just because you like playing with a certain dobari doesn't mean you're a "dobari" kind of guy.

If a particular shinai feels comfortable in your hand, and you enjoy playing with it, then it's your shinai. It's almost a gut reaction.

Thus far, I have discovered that at my level, far more important that what type of shinai I am using is the length of the grip. Relatively long grips (39+) tend to induce habits like "fishing" with the shinai when striking. For now I am happy with a 38 though a former teacher of mine suggested going as far as 37 1/2.

[Shinyaxyz]

Hi olaf,

my teacher was using 36. It was amazingly short.
He does iaido, too, so i think he wanted to use the as similar shinai as sword. We need a lot of tenouchi to handle it, I think.

But, it's really difficult to pick up these special ordered tsuka.

[olaf]

Shinyaxyz: yes, a 36 would be a pretty specialized tsuka. But most stores carry anything from 38 upwards I think.

And back to the point I was getting at, most amateur players really shouldn't be too picky about shinai types, tsuka sizes, etc...it all comes down to a couple grams or centimeters of difference.

[tetsuoxb]

Olaf, I wanted to address a couple of things you said. I say these things with all due respect, because you sound like a knowledgeable and very nice guy... so please don't take any offense at these things at all.

"At our level - and I don't mean to disparage anyone's mastery of kendo - cklin is right; a shinai is no more than a stick of bamboo. "

I am not at a level where I can disagree with you, but I really do think some people on here are.

"For me, instead of thinking, "I play best with dobari", or "I go with koto all the way", I like to pick up different shinai, try them out, and see what feels good. That's part of the reason I don't like buying shinai online. You can't judge a shinai by it's name - or what "category" it belongs to. Just because you like playing with a certain dobari doesn't mean you're a "dobari" kind of guy."

With this I certainly agree with trying many shinais and finding your comfort zone, however, I also disagree on two points:

1) You can tell alot about the basic characteristics of a shinai by the shape. A koto/chokuto shinai is going to be balanced way closer to the kensen than a dobari. Because of the balance differences inherent in the shape, it lends itself to a particular style of kendo. It will not make a shodan a godan or something drastic, but it does make a difference sometimes in you comfort level or style of attack. No one is going to use a koto shinai for a big enormous men uchi, it would require way to much effort as compared with a dobari.

2) I think the thread is more about what shinai you prefer than what shinai you pull out of your bag at any given moment. Koto shinais require a different set of skills outside of practice situations where it is ok to make mistakes. Many people on this thread, including myself, are koto in practice dobari in shiai. So these people like a certain shinai, and thus they are "certain kind of shinai guys." Isn't a favorite just something you like more than others... and isn't this thread about what is your favorite shinai?

I understand what you are trying to say.. some people like what they like because they have never tried anything else... but I think the discussions of different shinai on this thread is alot more knowledge then superfluous chest beating on shinai types.

Again, I am in no way trying to offend you, and I personally agree that your statements are right... however I think the net that you cast them with was a little bit too wide.

[olaf]

tetsuoxb (JP):

I believe you are not reading what I have said in its full context. First of all - I definitely recognize that many members here possess a mastery and understanding of kendo far beyond what I can ever aspire to; hence I clarified my intentions on "not wanting to disparage anyone" before I made my first statement. Perhaps you are right and I should have said, "at my level of kendo..." With that, my apologies to everyone. :)

My next point about not judging a shinai by it's "name", or "type", or category - that is not to say that all shinai are the same. Of course, all shinai are unique, and every shinai you'll ever encounter will have a different weight distribution, thickness, etc. That much I understand - of course, if that were not true, why would people classify shinai into different types in the first place? In other words, JP, and I don't mean to sound condescending, yes, I understand what general physical characteristics constitute each type of shinai, and how, for example, a koto is different from a dobari.

You accurately pointed out yourself that using a different shinai will not suddenly transform a shodan into a godan. That much I agree with; it was perhaps one of the main points I wished to stress. About different shinai lending themselves to different styles of kendo....I would respond to that assertion with much skepticism.

You're right - handling different shinai will result in different comfort levels - but should you limit the style of kendo you play to whatever shinai you are using? This notion of bending my game to the will of my shinai is somewhat uncomforting. I don't believe in allowing the mere physical characteristics of a piece of lumber to dictate how I ought to play my kendo. Kendo style and technique vary from person to person - it is an element inherent in YOU as a result of your hard training and study; it is not an end-result spelled out my the particular shinai in your hand.

You said, "no one is going to use a koto shinai for a big enormous men uchi". Is this really true? I'd like to hear what everyone else has to say. Does this mean you can only execute large waza when, say, using a dobari? Perhaps the implications are a bit unsound.

In that sense, I would hesitate against saying something like, "different shinai require different skill sets". The ultimate question is whether a particular shinai is right for you - even if you're not a big fan of big waza, perhaps you'll find a koto sometime that feels great to your grip, and that you feel good playing with. If that's the case, you've found a favorite shinai. If you go around looking for shinai "types" to fit your particular "style" - I think this mindset would greatly limit the types of shinai you'd experiment with and the different styles of kendo play you'd explore.

"I understand what you are trying to say.. some people like what they like because they have never tried anything else".... that is somewhat inaccurate. Never did I mention people's particular preference as a result of lack of alternatives. I'm saying that people should "like" whatever shinai they prefer not because it has a certain name or it belongs to a certain category of shinai, but because they truly feel that is the right match for them, at the particular moment. In that sense, sometimes you may prefer one thing while at other times you prefer another...just like yourself: you like koto in practice but dobari in intense shiai conditions.

Hope that clarifies things a bit, JP.

[tetsuoxb]

To me, a shinai is a real sword, not a piece of lumber. To me, kendo is not a sport, it is martial art.

Now, I understand that there are _many_ people that disagree with me on this, but I do feel this way and it colors the way that I look at shinai.

Since to me, a shinai is a real sword, I treat different type of shinai as different types of swords.

I agree that each shinai is unique, but the categories of shinai exist because shinais classified under them fit the general mold of this grouping.

I do think different shinais lead to different style of kendo, the sword is the extention of a kendokas mind and body.. ki ken tai ichi. However, it is smart to understand the strength and weaknesses of all 3 things for them to be truly one. You _CAN_ execute extremely large waza with a koto, but just by the laws of physics, it requires more strength. Some people may enjoy the extra power needed to throw a big waza with something weighted way down towards the tip, however, some may not. From a physics standpoint, dobari shinais are easier to do big waza with. You can do small, you can do big, you can do fast, you can do slow with _ANY_ type of shinai. Yet, you have to admit that physical characteristics of a shinai lend themselves to one side or the other. In this, you are right, I cast a net a bit too wide... if your kendo is strong enough to stay the same no matter what the tool, then it is truly beautiful kendo. I envy that kind of shinai control and seme. I am at a place in my training where the advantages or disadvantages of a certain type of shinai are something I like to take advantage of. I don't advocate limiting your kendo either, but it is important to know the limits of your kendo. I don't have the speed and control I would like to handle a koto in a shiai condition. Every fraction of a second counts. So I know that there is my limit, so I switch to dobari, which mentally and physically makes me "Feel" faster. I may still be slow, but I feel more as one.

I personally feel that knowing everything you can about the three essential elements of kendo, your spirit, your body, and your sword must always be kept in mind. I really respect your desire to keep your kendo the same no matter what you are using, and in this point I think it is best we agree to disagree. You are right, if a particular shinai (say a Koto for big waza) is what feels best, then by all means you have found your favorite shinai. I just don't think that saying shinais should not be catagorized, and that someone should try many different types of shinai is very realisitc in the area I live. Most people like a certain STYLE of shinai.. now a shinai might exist that they like outside of this style.. but the style catagories are helpful I feel. It would be very expensive for those without a local budoya to try shinais without having a decent idea of how they will behave.

I think we agree on many more points that we disagree on, and I don't want you to feel that I am flaming you at all. Hopefully I have made myself more clear, because your reply made your position very clear and I thank you for your clarity.

I look forward to your reply. This discussion is quite entertaining.

[tetsuoxb]

I PASSED THE EDIT LIMIT SO I WANT TO SAY ONE LAST THING:

"To me, a shinai is a real sword, not a piece of lumber. To me, kendo is not a sport, it is martial art."

This is not aimed at one particular person. It is aimed at explaining my mindset and how it differs from the many kendoka who view kendo as a martial sport. I don't view them differently, I just wanted to let everyone know how I approach kendo before I replied.

Please take no offense at my comments, none was intended, and I did not realize they may possibly be inflammatory until I had reread the entirety of my post in context with Olaf's. Again, gomen nasai. I am prone to moments of temporary stupidity.

[cklin]

Geez, people keep apologizing for their own opinions...

Olaf wrote:

>You said, "no one is going to use a koto shinai for a big
>enormous men uchi". Is this really true? I'd like to hear what
>everyone else has to say. Does this mean you can only execute
>large waza when, say, using a dobari? Perhaps the implications
>are a bit unsound.

I believe this to be untrue about koto. It is true that koto-style shinai are weighted towards the tip, but this would mean they are MORE conducive to big waza, not LESS.

If you want to analyze the physics of it vs a dobari, you can generate much more torque with a koto (because it has a longer moment arm) than with a dobari, using the same amt of force. So to generate the same torque, you use less force, which means big swings with a koto are easier.

If the physics don't convince you, then think about this. Old sensei always tell young students to swing big, to do big waza, right? Old sensei almost always play with big waza (i.e., not shiai waza), right? What kind of shinai do old sensei like to use? Koto.

If one type of shinai changes the way one plays so drastically, then it is an indication of only one thing -- not enough back muscle strength. This can only be changed thru much suburi.

By JP's own admission, the shinai is an extension of the kendoka's mind and body. So if it is such an extension, how can it's weight or balance impinge on the kendoka so much that the character of the his/her kendo changes? If this is occurs, how can one allow this to continue to happen???

It's interesting that my short remark has sparked such a debate. My point was: a shinai is a shinai is a shinai. That's all.

But since JP has brought it up, I will argue that a shinai is not a sword. If it were meant to be the complete equivalent of a sword, then they would have saya and all those tsuka and tsuba fittings. What a shinai is, is an approximation of a sword and as such, this reality should be taken as is. I want to point out that just because it's an approximation of a sword doesn't automatically detract from the "martialness" of kendo and add to its "sportiness".

Of course people can have preferences as to the type of shinai they use. But, Olaf has fleshed out my original point very well -- the struggle is for one to find one's own kendo style, not for one to find a shinai that will complement a particular style. In doing so, the shinai ceases being an approximation of a sword and becomes a full-fledged crutch.

[olaf]

cklin: "In doing so, the shinai ceases being an approximation of a sword and becomes a full-fledged crutch."

Bingo. Very eloquently put.

JP: "I look forward to your reply. This discussion is quite entertaining."

Let us first take some time and digest all that's been said here...wow.

[stakenaka]

Wow... I started this poll because I was curious what type of balance people prefer. :)

I guess I wanted to add my two cents: like cklin, I believe that the shinai is not a sword. I think of it as a "training sword". Shinken (real blades) are EXTREMELY difficult to maintain, requiring one to constantly oil the blade: removing the oil before use, cleaning and reoiling before putting it away, and reoiling the blade once every 1-3 months depending on the humidity. If you have problems properly maintaining a shinai, then you have no business owning a shinken.

[ben]

*Phew!* I get up in the morning and I'm greeted by this...! :0

I ain't even gonna buy into all of the above, but to answer Shinyaxyz: Yeah, I know some very highly ranked sensei use short shinai. Some, like you say, want to use one that's the same length as a sword. The difference is they're usually pretty heavy. (see Akatsuki's website for some pics of interesting custom orders). Toda-sensei who visited Melbourne this year uses a shorter shinai but it weighs well over 600 grams. Chiba-sensei of Tokyo Police does the same (I think he gets them shortened to a specific length, not to a standard size). I don't really know much about this practice though. I mean, I only learned there were different kinds of shinais last year!

BTW, what do mean by "make a copy" of a shinai? I'm curious!

b

[tetsuoxb]

It is funny how people keep apologizing.. I think it is because no one wants to offend anyone else, only get there point across. I kind of like it.

Cklin, your post is quite interesting... im going to comment on the points that most interest me.

I sold back my physics books (the famed halliday/resnick et.al) because I am moving overseas and a new edition is "in the works". No need to have to buy it twice without getting anything out of it. So please excuse me if any of my math and equations to go with this argument are wrong. However, the discussion of torque in the topic of dobari versus koto is interesting.

There are many many pivots involved in the motion of moving your shinai.. shoulders, elbows, ect.
I will use an X to denote the center of mass of the different shinais. These are approximations

(====|===X=============> DOBARI
(====|=======X=========> KOTO

Now, we are moving the kensen, so it isnt a matter of torque so much (where you are right, there is more torque by the equation R X F) as it is a matter of rotation and inertia. When the center of mass is closer to the center of rotation as below... it is much easier to swing. A koto shinai is futher out, hence the rotational velocity is slower. Now, it isnt a huge amount, so you couldn't spin in a chair holding both shinais and see a big difference, but it is there.
/
0 /
|--x
|
|\

The equation for swinging a shinai, at constant strength in a uniform big circle is Rotational Inertia (I) times angular velocity (w) is equal to angular momentum. Now, since angular momentum is conserved (if both shinais are of equal weight and you are swinging them at the same speed) you are presented with the following analogy. Now, if a shinais center of mass is closer in, the rotational inertia goes DOWN, conversely angular velocity goes UP. So, the closer the center of mass of the shinai to the faster you can swing it. To prove this, I present you a great little example from the University of Florida's Physics department.

http://www.phys.ufl.edu/~phy2048/2048lecnotes/12_ang_mom_cons/quickies.pdf

It is the first question on the quickies.. and describes a figure skater spinning... now, she is spinning on a different axis than a shinai would spin, but she and the shinai are both spinning in the same manner, since the shinai is really an extension of the arm in this case. The rotational inertial differences also make the change in direction at the top of your swing a little harder because the force you have to apply is greater. More complicated math would follow if I had any inkling that anyone actually cared :-D

"If the physics don't convince you, then think about this. Old sensei always tell young students to swing big, to do big waza, right? Old sensei almost always play with big waza (i.e., not shiai waza), right? What kind of shinai do old sensei like to use? Koto."

No disagreement there. But they are a class apart from the kendo I am talking about. They have impeccable control, and strong (not necessarily physically) everything else.

"By JP's own admission, the shinai is an extension of the kendoka's mind and body. So if it is such an extension, how can it's weight or balance impinge on the kendoka so much that the character of the his/her kendo changes? If this is occurs, how can one allow this to continue to happen???"

I completely agree with you here. I have been unclear in seeming to advocate that one change their kendo based on the shinai. But then again, why ignore the obvious characteristics of certain types of shinai? You can do everything with any type of shinai, and shinai is a shinai is a shinai. But not all shinai are equal. Hence this thread.

As far as the whole is a shinai a sword, it may not be a sword, but we really should treat it as such. That is how I feel.

Good conversation. Maybe I'll write a paper on it when I return from Japan, and resume my computer science studies.

[olaf]

In 30 words or less, what were the ASCII diagrams and physics supposed to say? Can someone translate?

The math lingo has never liked me much. :)

You said: "No disagreement there. But they are a class apart from the kendo I am talking about. They have impeccable control, and strong (not necessarily physically) everything else. "

Does that mean the old and more experienced sensei can defy the laws of physics?! :)

[cklin]

Hrm... seems like I've forgotten some of Physics 101... how embarassing...! :P

Despite my obviously incorrect physics, I still disagree that a koto is not conducive to big waza. In fact, maybe your physical explanation gives me an argument there -- koto actually FORCES you to do things big.

What do you mean by "treating a shinai as a sword"? Do you do chiburi with a shinai? Do you osame like you had a saya? When people say "one should treat a shinai like a sword," they mean that you shouldn't just treat it like a piece scrap wood -- you don't step on it, you don't throw it around. My "lumber is lumber" comment was intended to downplay the importance of different types of shinai, rather than to advocate casual treatment of shinai in general.

[cklin]

Ben: I think the discussion on length was in reference to the length of the tsukagawa, not the actual length of the shinai...? If I'm wrong then I've misunderstood a few msgs in the thread.

As to Toda-sensei using a shorter shinai -- well, he plays nito, so the long shinai is supposed to be shorter than a standard 39 (it's a 37, I believe).

[tetsuoxb]

Translation:
You can swing a dobari shinai faster.

And no, sensei dont break the laws of physics, but through experience and training they use the laws to their advantage in my eyes.

No unneccessary movements, quick actions, control of the shinai, and strength in the proper muscle groups all help them handle koto shinais. In a discussion of kotos at practice the other day, I was sitting by quietly while the two senpai (both testing for 4th dan soon) were discussing the differences of the shinai. One said and I quote "chokuto is very much about tip work". We all know that old sensei have incredible tenouchi, and the increased torque that cklin was talking about makes koto shinai's incredibly "active" tip complimentary to their style.

[olaf]

Originally posted by tetsuoxb Translation:
You can swing a dobari shinai faster

Yes, your arms and hands can swing a dobari faster than a koto because it feels lighter - less of the weight is on the tip.

BUT... what's important when you play kendo is not what the butt of the shinai is doing but what the TIP is doing. All the action takes place at the shinai's tip. With a dobari, you feel that you're swinging much faster because you have more control on the handle end of the shinai, but the actual shinai motion is pretty much the same.

So in other words, your waza should not speed up noticibly even when you switch to a dobari shinai. Much of the difference is either psychological, or a misinterpretation of what your hands are feeling. Right?

[tetsuoxb]

cklin,

"My "lumber is lumber" comment was intended to downplay the importance of different types of shinai, rather than to advocate casual treatment of shinai in general."

Pardon my misinterpretation of your comment. I thought you were of the more casual view of the shinai, and I see that you agree with me in that position. No, I don't osame like a saya, but I do several little things to try to keep the spirit of the shinai as a sword alive. I don't leave extra shinai out of the bag, I don't allow a shinai to rest against a wall in a manner a real sword would not (many people seem to like putting the tsuka against the wall and the kensen against the floor), always making sure that the tsuru is pointed in the right direction during seiza.... This kind of thing was drilled into me as a beginner, so I keep to it today. I am glad that you agree that shinai should be treated with care.

I will agree to disagree on the importance of classifications. I think they are needed for people who can't go to a local budoya and start swinging til they find something right.

Good thread though.

[tetsuoxb]

Originally posted by olaf


Yes, your arms and hands can swing a dobari faster than a koto because it feels lighter - less of the weight is on the tip.

BUT... what's important when you play kendo is not what the butt of the shinai is doing but what the TIP is doing. All the action takes place at the shinai's tip. With a dobari, you feel that you're swinging much faster because you have more control on the handle end of the shinai, but the actual shinai motion is pretty much the same.

So in other words, your waza should not speed up noticibly even when you switch to a dobari shinai. Much of the difference is either psychological, or a misinterpretation of what your hands are feeling. Right?

Interesting point.. that I kinda touched on when talking about sensei and koto shinais.... because of the torque being placed on the koto's tip, the shinai is swinging slower, but the "head speed" (to borrow a golf/baseball term) is actually faster. This comes into play when you have killer tenouchi, because you can apply it in such a manner as to maximize the effectiveness of the koto. I have not developed this kind of tenouchi... which is why I practice with koto, to strength myself with the shinai try things to improve my tenouchi. Being a right handed american, tenouchi is one thing (of many) I can definetely improve on.

Dobari is moving faster as a whole shinai, not just at the butt... so you physically arrive with more the shinai at the time of impact.

This segway's into what cklin was saying about torque again.. from a physics aspect, sensei probably perfer Koto because the torque being applied to the shinai (especially the whipping motion that occurs at the top of the swing) makes the kensen arrive at the target faster than a dobari.. but only the kensen. Take a look at some pictures of a shinai flexing, and here is the torque differences. Due to the elasticity of bamboo, you are physically snapping the tip forward on a Koto more so than on a Dobari. So you are right and you are wrong in the same sense... for someone who can manipulate the tip a Koto will be faster because of torque..... if on the other hand you can't quite get the tip to make up for the inertial differences, dobari is faster.

Which goes back to why certain shinais are different than others and sometimes Lumber is not Lumber... LOL

[Shinyaxyz]

BEN>>


Wow, this thread became a physics class....

Anyway, this is the message basically for BEN and who are interested to read.

To make a copy of the shinai means I will measure the length, diameter, weight, and other features of shinai and order a custom-made. It costs from $40 and up, but we have to order in Japan. In this way, we can create our own style.

Actually, I ordered new shinai recently.
It weighs about 700g with 36 tsuka.
The first day, I barely hit large me...... after two weeks, I could hit do first time. Well, I'm learning something out of it. But, kakarigeiko and kirikaeshi are really tough.

BUT, when my teacher gave me the shinai, he told me:
Choosing our own shinai is really important in kendo, but kendo is not an exercise of hitting others by shinai, but hitting others' heart by our heart. No matter how we can do ki-ken-tai no icchi, it is just a violent strike if it doesn't reach his/her heart.

It's deep, but I want to understand this sometime.

[ben]

Shinya, thanks for your reply. Now I understand how you copy a shinai. Whoah 700g, that's heavy! I recently got my first madake shinai, koto style. I think it weighs about 600 grams. After the first training with it I had sharp pain in my left triceps. I can't do very fast techniques with it like sashi-men, but when I do get a point, it really goes "BOOM"! It's very interesting: because I am not very muscular (63 kg) I cannot swing such a heavy shinai for very advanced or tricky techniques. All I can do is sho-men. Warui-koto ja nai ka?

What your teacher said is so true! Even though a cut has nearly all aspects of yuko-datotsu, if it doesn't cut "right through", it's not a complete cut. This is why good shimpan are so important, because they must be able to make this distinction, otherwise shiai is just about hitting. My technique is not so good, but I understand these sort of things.

Gambarimasho

:)

b

[Shinyaxyz]

Ben>

Yap, I feel the same feeling from my strike, if I really hit strait with the heavy shinai.

But, it's really difficult. Even when I practice with beginners, I really have to read the maai and do seme. Otherwise, it's always waste strike. When I start at the point I usually feel it's the timing for aimen, that's too late. I really have to anticipate how my opponents will move in another second..... this is kinda good practice.

Haaaa~~~~ more practice, practice.......

[olaf]

To put an end to my babbling in this particular thread, I will say this much: all shinai are equal, but some are more equal than others.

:P

[tetsuoxb]

Originally posted by olaf
To put an end to my babbling in this particular thread, I will say this much: all shinai are equal, but some are more equal than others.

:P

Well said.

[alexpollijr]

Fair enough

[eddiez]

Most of my shinai are dobari, but if I'm honest with myself, I haven't really had a preference. Dobari, standard, whatever....I find that my practice is more impacted by my own attitude and state of mind than the shape of the wood. I do enjoy trying different shinai's (I am a guy and, hence, like to play with toys), but the shinai itself hasn't made a difference in my practice. I have both kicked butt, and been severely clobbered, using different shinais.

[Sup]

my favorite type? hmmm..

ones with SMOOTH grips. Otherwise I get more blisters :D

[KhawMengLee]

Okay, I just got two shinais from japan. A present.

One is a Dobari and the other I'm not sure.

The pic is here:http://www.moribudo.co.jp/shinaimei.htm

Its the one on the right. What kinda shinai is it and which one?

The description is here:

http://www.moribudo.co.jp/ef-kawaraban1.htm

PEACE
Meng

[akihiro]

KhawMengLee:

Looks like a kotoh to me. Nice shinai! I'm envious.

There was a series of articles in Kendo Nippon a number of years ago that featured Mr. Yamaguchi and his shinais. The amount of time it takes to make one shinai the old fashioned way is amazing.

[KhawMengLee]

Thanx

I'm rotating between shinais to season them. I'll be using that one this week...heh

Spent a couple of hours taking them apart, sanding down, oiling and tightening the fittings...heh...sore hands.

Kinda like, fine tuning a new car...

MENG

[amatsuda]

My Current Favorite Shinai are both E-Bogu.com's shinai.

Musha Shinai (Dobari) http://www.e-bogu.com/muscomshin.html and Hyoei Shinai (Dobari) http://www.e-bogu.com/hycomshin.html

Both are well balanced and durable.

The tsuka of their new ISSHO Shinai is a little too thick for my hands...

amatsuda

[Confound]

Originally posted by Shinyaxyz
Koto and Chokuto is the same type of shinai, I believe.
ThOne shinai cost about 100yen, which is really expensive.



dude... 100 yen is less than a dollar american. you mean 10,000 yen, which is less then 100 american dollars, but it has the same weight within this economy. (The exact is about 120,000 yen for $100 usd)

c

[tetsuoxb]

I am 100% sure shinya just made a typo..... He was definetely talking about ichiman en and not hyaku en.

but wouldn't it be great to be able to purchase shinai from a hyaku en ya?

Also to be exact about things.. the yen is at 121.1 to the dollar at 952pm US EDT. So 12100 yen to a franklin.

[olaf]

Well, tetsuoxb, if you really wanted to be precise about exchange rates, could you really trade at 121.1 to 1? Not unless you're a big bank or institutional forex trader. Most retail banks in the U.S.A, I reckon, would offer you something near 115.

:)

[KATSUJIN]

i normally use a standard round grip shinai......i have also used the oval grip or katana handle shinai....pretty good actually....nice feeling...i have used dobari big grip before...just abit unusual for me..........i think i prefer standard round grip or katana grip.....

[scbang]

I thought Dobari would help me hit fast men but after getting used to Hasegawa CF39( Standard I guess ) I find a bit more weight toward tip gives me more rythm. Haven't tried Koto style yet.

Do you all buy Shinai thru Web? Isn't shipping half the price of Shinai?

SC