Kendo: Martial art or martial sport?

[gordonpatti]

I realize that this has probably been discussed many times but I would like to know if there is a definite answer out there and what other kendokas think?

I think of kendo as a martial art, but most people think that because it uses a point system and is a more recent martial art (what, about 150 years?). Also, most people seem to think that unlike karate or jujitsu we don't have a definite ideology or practical.

What do you guys think?

[ShinKenshi]

I realize that this has probably been discussed many times...Search through the threads and you'll find many discussions on this subject.


...most people seem to think that unlike karate or jujitsu we don't have a definite ideology or practical.Those people then aren't aware of the concepts of kendo as published by the All Japan Kendo Federation.

Yes we use a point system in tournaments but what other martial art that has tournaments doesn't? It's true that kendo doesn't exactly have a "practical application" in terms of self defense but I don't think people practice kendo for that purpose. We practice it to develop ourselves into better people and learn to have an unshakable resolve. In a way, comparing kendo to jujitsu or karate is a bit like comparing apples to oranges. While all are martial arts, kendo was created with a different purpose in mind.

[yoda-waza]

The sport of competitive kendo involves a point system but that one aspect is not at the core of kendo as a martial art. 'Art' is a vague western translation of the 'do' in kendo wherein the ultimate heart of its value resides. To practice kendo is to struggle to become a better person, not to just learn sword combat or score points.

There is no point system to measure a persons worth.

[absenteekendoka]

It is a martial art...it is a sport....it is many things to many people. Vague yes, true yes.

[Neil Gendzwill]

It's a dessert topping and a floor wax.

[rfoxmich]

Is kendo a martial art or a sport?
Yes.

[gordonpatti]

I realize that it is a difficult question to answer but what is the criterion for a martial art? And a martial sport? What distinguishes the two and how are the people that practice them different?

[Sparv]

I'll write her my shallow thoughts, and I hope that wiser than me will help me precise them.

In kendo, I work on wazas, my stamina, muscular force and so on: that's a sport.

It comes from a military background: it's martial

I try to defeat my opponent's mind (as a beginner, I'm more trying not to be defeated actually): it's definitely martial. BTW, tennis is also a martial sport from this point of view.

BUT the "perfect kendo mind" is a calm and clear one, and the first aim in keiko/shiai/shinsa is to improve our kendo. We are not trying to be the best, but to be better. That's an art!

Conclusion: like rfoxmich said, yes is a very good answer IMO.

Moral of the story: I love it and I don't care if it is an art, a sport or a potato.

[Steve Bishop]

I realize that it is a difficult question to answer but what is the criterion for a martial art? And a martial sport? What distinguishes the two and how are the people that practice them different?

Very tricky...kendo as a sport has boundaries, a point-scoring procedure, rules and referees to adjudicate on these rules whereas "kenjutsu" did (does) not and a "kendo" (as practiced post WW2) falls somewhere in between to emulate the methodological and ethical characteristics of the "justu" while training in tactics and methodology for the sport.

In a way there's no question to answer since all three can have very different approaches...I'm confused now too!

[Ignatz]

This is a question usually raised by people who have minimal understanding of kendo.

[ne0r]

Hm. From a mathematical point of view:

Kendo = Sport united with Art united with Martial
Kendo != (is not) Sport intersected with Art intersected with Martial

I think this is what Neil wanted to say.

Oh, and all this doesn't actually matter, I think. What will it help you to categorize whether Kendo is a martial art or a martial sport?

[ne0r]

Hm. I realized that's not really true, it's kind of both, intersection and union.

[pgsmith]

What do you guys think?
Since you asked, I think it doesn't make a rat's patootie what you call it. Martial art, martial sport, whackity-whack with funny stick thingy, it's the act that's important, not the words. If you enjoy the practice, do it. If not, do something else. If anyone is overly worried about semantics, they obviously aren't practicing anywhere near hard enough!

Heh, you had to ask didn't you! :D

[enkorat]

I realize that this has probably been discussed many times

Yes, it has been discussed many times, by many people over every generation of kendo, not just here. I've found that Noma Hiyashi's take on this argument in "the Kendo Reader" is a particularly elegant argument.



but I would like to know if there is a definite answer out there and what other kendokas think?


There is no definitive answer. Every person's answer to your question will be highly personal and the formation of that particular answer will help define what you expect out of kendo, and what your priorities are.



I think of kendo as a martial art, but most people think that because it uses a point system and is a more recent martial art (what, about 150 years?).


This is a very vague statement. What do you mean by "martial art"? Who do you mean when you reference "most people"? Other kendoists? Other martial artists? Lay people? Beginners? Kodansha?

Moreover what do you mean by "recent" martial art? At what age does a martial move from "new" to "old"? When did "kendo" begin? In the 1700s with the invention of the shinai? At the committee meeting in the early part of the 20th century? After World War II? Is Kendo "newer" than Judo? Jujitsu? Krav Maga? Taebo? Kenpo? English Longbow archery? Aikido? Which Aikido?

Does being older make it "better"? Are you asking us if a "sport" is "better" or "worse" than an "art"?



Also, most people seem to think that unlike karate or jujitsu we don't have a definite ideology or practical.


Which school of karate are you referring to? Shotokan? Chito-ryu? Goju-ryu? Isshin-ryu? Shuri-ryu? Kyokushinkai? Wado? Seido Jukou? What school of jujutsu are you referring to? Brazilian? German? Sambo? Judo? Small Circle? Shorinji kan?

Definate ideology? Practical? How do you define "practical" in the sense of an activity?



What do you guys think?

I think that either you are a beginner just starting to look at these issues and making fairly vague, unsupported claims that reflect a beginner's understanding of kendo, or you are someone who is deliberately trying to start a flamewar, either for fun or for edification of your already established viewpoint.

[bobdonny]

............ stuff..................

I think that either you are a beginner just starting to look at these issues and making fairly vague, unsupported claims that reflect a beginner's understanding of kendo, or you are someone who is deliberately trying to start a flamewar, either for fun or for edification of your already established viewpoint.

A bit unnecessary! You almost take it personally.

Remember, there is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers!

[Nayuta]

I think you should consider what martial art is and what martial sport is.
Word itself is not important. Your understanding is the most important, because word is only definition defined by word.

[hl1978]

Yes, it has been discussed many times, by many people over every generation of kendo, not just here. I've found that Noma Hiyashi's take on this argument in "the Kendo Reader" is a particularly elegant argument.

I am in absolute agreement with that. That document is chock full of useful information, some of which seems to be forgotten today.


www.osi.uio.no/kendo/pdf/Noma.pdf

The above is a copy of the kendo reader.

[enkorat]

A bit unnecessary! You almost take it personally.

Remember, there is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers!

Perhaps. On the other hand the user did ask "what do you guys think", and the user had a very low post count. Maybe I have become more easily suspicious after reading through many threads on this forum of the same type, particularly of those people who start threads in the guise of a novice and then revealing later that this was not the case.

I gave an honest, direct, and unambiguously clear answer after trying to look though the surface of a situation. That is what I have been taught in the course of my training in Kendo. If I offended you in my more than usual directness, I apologize.

[Jiyoui]

Search through the threads and you'll find many discussions on this subject.

Those people then aren't aware of the concepts of kendo as published by the All Japan Kendo Federation.

Yes we use a point system in tournaments but what other martial art that has tournaments doesn't? It's true that kendo doesn't exactly have a "practical application" in terms of self defense but I don't think people practice kendo for that purpose. We practice it to develop ourselves into better people and learn to have an unshakable resolve. In a way, comparing kendo to jujitsu or karate is a bit like comparing apples to oranges. While all are martial arts, kendo was created with a different purpose in mind.

Kinda just felt like throwing this out there for no particular reason.....

People who learn the skills of football (either one) don't do it because there's some practical application either. They do it because they enjoy it in one way or another.

Same can be said about kendo. We do it because it's kendo.

[bobdonny]

Perhaps. On the other hand the user did ask "what do you guys think", and the user had a very low post count. Maybe I have become more easily suspicious after reading through many threads on this forum of the same type, particularly of those people who start threads in the guise of a novice and then revealing later that this was not the case.

I gave an honest, direct, and unambiguously clear answer after trying to look though the surface of a situation. That is what I have been taught in the course of my training in Kendo. If I offended you in my more than usual directness, I apologize.

No need to apologize, we all had low post counts once.

[Tosa Samurai]

A bit unnecessary! You almost take it personally.

Remember, there is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers!

yeah i agree with that

but i think of kendo as a way to sharpen what skills i have like other stated to make you a strong pillar of resolve to negate fear from your mind and to sharpen your awareness thats what i see i also do iai and if you do both usually it helps at least thats what i found to be true some people just suck at most things what ya gonna do <<< not implying to anyone posting here not an attack

[gordonpatti]

How many kendo practitioners would actually feel comfortable dueling with actual swords? (Obviously no one would be comfortable being in a duel) but do you feel like you could preform well in a combat situation with a real katana? This question does not apply to any iaito or kenjutsu practitioners.

[kurisu]

How many kendo practitioners would actually feel comfortable dueling with actual swords? (Obviously no one would be comfortable being in a duel) but do you feel like you could preform well in a combat situation with a real katana? This question does not apply to any iaito or kenjutsu practitioners.

Against who? Someone with as many years training? I think I would do OK.
Someone with no or little training? I would probably do better against.
I think kendo could give you enough experience that you wouldn't even need a sword to defeat someone. A bokken against a real sword would work.

The more years I train, the more confindence I would have.

[shred_lord]

I did have a large sarcastic post, but instead I'll just say this:


Kendo doesn't fit into pigeon-holes

[bobdonny]

How many kendo practitioners would actually feel comfortable dueling with actual swords? well the text book answer is the weapon is inconsequential, as it is only an extension of yourself. but that said i do feel waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more pressure doing kata with habika.

[ewanwalker_2001]

As soon as I saw the name of the thread I thought 'Pah, it's neither.' However actually looking into the thread I see there's a bit more to it than I first thought. Although let me say this which was my original thought, 'Kendo is an educational sport.' According to Hiroshi Ozawa in Kendo: The Definitive Guide 'the AJKF was formed on the principal of Kendo not as a martial art but as an educational sport' and not a martial art OR martial sport.

My two er.... pence...

[Koffein]

How many kendo practitioners would actually feel comfortable dueling with actual swords? (Obviously no one would be comfortable being in a duel) but do you feel like you could preform well in a combat situation with a real katana? This question does not apply to any iaito or kenjutsu practitioners.

.........23

[un hartim]

Looking your answers and having thought a while about this, I am realizing that Kendo is what you want. Depending on your approach it could be either a martial art or a sport, one of them or both at the same time. But it is up to any kendo-ka. You can practise kendo to find a balance in yourself, build up your spirit, get that military discipline, know how to use a weapon, just this, or, on the other hand, you can be crazy about shiai, get a point, win a taikai.

Kendo is what you do every time in your dojo. This is my thought.

At this moment, there is not an answer. Maybe, in the future, it becomes a sport, likewise Olympic Judo, maybe not.

And, definitely, there is not stupid question, there are silly answers

[Martino]

During the shimpaning component of the Summer camp last year one of the sensei made a good point. (I really wish I was better a recalling people names).

First there was kendo and then the rules were added.
In Sports you have the rules and you play to them.

What he was say was that in kendo rules are there to act as guidelines for what is consider good correct Kendo,
In sports (at the top level) you try to take advantage of the rules to push them to their limits.

The FIK do not want to have rules for every little and possible situation because that will lead to people playing to the rules rather than practising kendo.

The rules are there as guidelines not barriers.
It may be subtle, but to me this is the difference between a sport and a martial art.

[Jiyoui]

It depends the person.
If you want it to be a sport, then its a sport
If you want it to be a martial art, then its an martial art
Let it be whatever you want it to be.

But in the end, kendo is a martial art. Period. End of discussion

[Kagerou]

I did have a large sarcastic post, but instead I'll just say this:


Kendo doesn't fit into pigeon-holes

Agreed and I'd just like to add a bit of wisdom from Chidokan paraphrased just a little for this situation:

Why are you arguing about this and not training? No Excuses!

[Kenzan]

http://www.mtv.com/games/video_games/images/promoimages/d/dime/wacky_sports_games/outlaw_golf_2.jpg

:D

[Kenzan]

I'm all for the sporty marital (http://www.mtv.com/games/video_games/images/promoimages/d/dime/wacky_sports_games/outlaw_golf_2.jpg)arts.

:D

[Kendoka_Han]

It's true that kendo doesn't exactly have a "practical application" in terms of self defense

I am pretty sure, that a well-trained kendoka will be able to defend him/her-self with no problems.....in a real life situation of regards to having a stick or sword or shinai or bokken, etc (99.9% likely to win the fight) or not (debatable what happens).

[Kagerou]

I'm all for the sporty marital (http://www.mtv.com/games/video_games/images/promoimages/d/dime/wacky_sports_games/outlaw_golf_2.jpg)arts.

:D

I might accept that one if she were real and you had a chance :eek:

[Shazzanzzz]

I would say people that are very good at kendo would not be very good at fighting with a real sword against someone, unless they actually study sword fighting also.
But that said, I would say kendo is much more closer to the idea of martial arts than actually learning how to kill someone with a sword. Any shaolin monk would tell you. They and their doctrine tell them to study martial arts to improve their mental and physical fitness... ie for sport. They don't learn to beat up someone or to kill someone.
The idea of martial arts actually apply much more to people who play sports than people who learn martial arts to learn how to fight.
Sports is a progression of humanity toward becoming a more civilized existence. Kendo as you know now has taken part in that progression. Sport itself isn't bad. It's the money and fame involved that gets to people. But you can also take that as a mental thing you have to overcome.
News to people that's learning kendo to learn how to kill someone with a sword. News flash! It's the 21st century.
And to the same people, learning how to fight is not the point of martial arts, and not the point of kendo. So, stop calling yourself martial artists.

[Kenzan]

I might accept that one if she were real and you had a chance :eek:

You'd be surprised what a bottle of Cold Duck can do.
:D

[absenteekendoka]

It's a dessert topping and a floor wax.

Still laughing!! Nearly fell off my chair at the office!! Many rep points to you :)

[ShinKenshi]

I am pretty sure, that a well-trained kendoka will be able to defend him/her-self with no problems.....in a real life situation of regards to having a stick or sword or shinai or bokken, etc (99.9% likely to win the fight) or not (debatable what happens).Say you're being accosted by a knife-wielding thug who's got you by your shirt collar and you're up against a wall. I for one would give they guy my wallet and live another day. That aside, I don't think a kendoka would do well in a sudden fight (bare-knuckles and all) unless they've had some grappling training (ie. judo, aikido) or other hand-to-hand based martial arts, such as karate (non-McDojo variety).

[absenteekendoka]

Hmmm, the best way to win a fight is to avoid confrontation in the first place. Win without using your (metaphorical) sword...simply by never having drawn it. Live like your always ready to draw it.

Practical application in a real life situation? Where you'll never have a weapon handy....I guess some one attacks you ........use fumikomi.......just dont be there :) They come at you again......strong kiai as they go by...perhaps help them on their way with a gentle push? Suddenly this seems to be an Aikido post? A strong kiai can really freeze some people in their tracks...others not so much :)

I really stress people need to be able to defend themselves if they're ever attacked, especially women, but Kendo isn't really the best choice in this regard. It does however give you confidence and a certain bearing after you've done it for a while that would seem to make 'bullies' leave you alone. Seen it with a lot of kids over the years at the dojo....come in afraid of their shadow........always getting picked on, and after a few months of Kendo they carry themselves so confidently that people just stop picking on them.

Real world situations never go the way you train in most martial arts, making a number of them more or less 'ineffective'. Most fights seem to end up with some one on the ground being struck and tryng to get up and away or just cover.......very rarely do you ever see someone get attacked and its a stand up affair. My advice is generally to RUN or simply try to avoid the situation altogether. :)

Never understimate the value of groundwork :) But like I said...........normally if i could offer any advice its just not to get into a tight spot to begin with.

[Kenzan]

Say you're being accosted by a knife-wielding thug who's got you by your shirt collar and you're up against a wall. I for one would give they guy my wallet and live another day. That aside, I don't think a kendoka would do well in a sudden fight (bare-knuckles and all) unless they've had some grappling training (ie. judo, aikido) or other hand-to-hand based martial arts, such as karate (non-McDojo variety).

For just such Emergencies, I have spent a lifetime practicing the ancient art of the most powerful combat (http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1610764/2/istockphoto_1610764_from_the_womb.jpg) technique of all.

My training involves various esoteric foods (http://www.narysta.com/Ramen/KungFuChickRaw.jpg),
-and when all else fails, I will resort to my ultimate secret weapon (http://userimage.movietome.com/user_images/blog/4/3/20225081381405618458484703100934/blog.jpg).

[mingshi]

If you have a problem choosing among martial arts, self-defence skills and sports, why not pick up rifle shooting instead? Well it's a sport and you can defend yourself...

[hl1978]

.
News to people that's learning kendo to learn how to kill someone with a sword. News flash! It's the 21st century.

If you listen to the peak oil theorists, it might be a very good reason to learn kendo if the world breaks down into a mad max like future :P


And to the same people, learning how to fight is not the point of martial arts, and not the point of kendo. So, stop calling yourself martial artists.

Noma Hisashi says a bit to the opposite, to counter your shaolin monk example. It is less about learning technique, but more the seriousness of how you treat the actual encounter, which he feels is necessary for one to truly pursue kendo to benefit ones self and society.


No, within Kendo there is something to be sought of much greater value, something of profound spiritual significance. But to learn of this significance one cannot bypass the original function of Kendo as Bujutsu i.e. "to destroy the enemy and protect oneself." It is only through a deadly earnest razor edged course of Kendo training that one can truly experience the lofty way towards spiritual understanding.

and later

,... I do not want it to be appear that I do not acknowledge the excellent attributes that sport has to offer, not only from the physical aspect but also the spiritual aim. It is just that Budo was devised for and deployed in situations where ones life itself was at risk. For this crucial reason it differs greatly from sport and it is in this point that the true value of Budo is to be found. Therefore, I must emphasize strongly that if one ignores the original function of Kendo as Bujustsu, where life and death are held in balance, then one greatly diminishes the value of kendo. Although it is quite alright to view Kendo in the light of physical exercise and character cultivation, if any situation one forgets the primary rule of Bujustu one will not be able to comprehend the true meaning of kendo. As was said earlier, in the present age there are practically no opportunities for mortal combat with a sword (shinken shobu). If that is the case how is one to come even close to experiencing the mental state of shinken shobu, of brining Kendo to life as Bujutsu? The answer is to attach great importance to the outcome of one to one engagements (shohai) In Budo, shohai must be held in the highest regards. Questions of shohai may have to be set aside for purposes of instruction and son by shohai is the difference between life and death, be it with the real sword or shinai. It is vital to realize that to be defeated means that ones life is lost.

[ne0r]

I think what Noma means is just that you should approach jigeiko with seriousness like in a life-death situation, so you can truly find the essence of budo. In my opinion (which is in fact quite vague as I haven't concerned myself so much with Noma's reader) his point is more about pushing yourself to the limit, etc. But he doesn't state that you should practise kendo to be able to defend yourself or use it anywhere else than in the dojo.

Edit:
Sorry, just realized you were saying quite the same^^

But, back to the shaolin monk example, I think it is more about not fighting outside the dojo; that hasn't to do so much with Noma's point which is about how to approach a fight in the dojo.

[ne0r]

Oh, you could say that Noma advised to look at kendo not only from the sports side. That's also in it.

[Black Knight]

Perhaps, for those of us in the USA, this question was definitively asnwered by our most senior practicioners and teachers in the January 2008 AUSKF newsletter:

"A. Committee Recommendation to
Adopt Proposed Mission Statement.

A report was submitted by committee
chairman Norman K. Otani and
committee member Walter Hashimoto,
indicating that significant research had
been undertaken and completed of
various organization mission statements.
It was the committee recommendation
that the following AUSKF Mission
Statement be approved:

'Kendo is a martial art that fosters the
building of physical, mental, spiritual and
moral values through diligent, persistent,
disciplined practice done with courtesy
and respect.
“In addition, the goal of the All United
States Kendo Federation is to develop a
social and humanistic consciousness that
will enhance the values of family,
community, society, and our nation.'

The AUSKF board of directors
unanimously approved the above Mission
Statement."

The AUSKF says kendo is a martial art. I agree for many reasons, including those articulated by Noma sensei, but there it is from our governing body.

[Paikea]

You'd be surprised what a bottle of Cold Duck can do.
:DGirls like that are looking for Cristal. You're gonna need a better job.

Jenny sounds like she's been communing with Che Guevara again...

[enkorat]

Personally, when I have to describe these things, I use the boolean operator "and" rather than "or".

I usually start out by saying "kendo is a martial art and modern sport". It keeps people asking questions and keeps others in the know relatively happy.

After all, both statements independently are true to a certain degree, and it keeps discussion levels down and we're able to practice more.

Besides, that way an older guy who's in kendo for self improvement and health can practice with a kid who wants to be the next champion, and both get what they want out of it, and get a little of what the other person wants to get out of it at the same time. Regardless of the abstract motivation, they're both getting floor time, both getting an opportunity to practice.

After all, isn't it far more important that we have places to practice kendo with qualified and good senseis and decent dojomates and actually get up and do something than to get hung up over semantics and end up sitting in a chair?

[Kenzan]

Girls like that are looking for Cristal.


A.) Most people don't know the difference.

B.) By the time they would figure out it wasn't, I'd be enjoying a post-coital Ham sammich.

:evil:

[ne0r]

Nice post Enkorat.

I think why people (like myself some time ago) struggle with the sport aspects of kendo is because they don't want to accept that kendo has become quite impractical as a sword-art (i.e. you cannot really wield a katana as a kendoka).
I think kendo as sport gives us great advantages, especially jigeiko and shiai. We practise to use our skills directly in shiai/jigeiko and this makes kendo a lot more practical than for instance kenjutsu (which I would consider a martial art; calling kenjutsu a sport may not be really adequate).

[Charles Lockhar]

I think this question is a lot like like the "Why do we train?" question. This one answer to that question, which I thought was completely correct, went something like "wasting time on asking the question as to why you train in kendo indicates a lack of maturity. You train because you do. Don't waste your time asking why."

I think the "what is kendo?" question is pretty much along that same line of thinking.

The implied lack of practical aspects in kendo I will respond to. I have trained in aikido, judo, and jujitsu (Gracie), of all those I find kendo to have the most practical application in my life, by far. Every aspect of kendo training has had some positive impact on me, whereas the other things I practiced were much narrower in scope and benefited me far less. Some of those other things were just plain detrimental.

-Charles

[ne0r]

Oh, very interesting.

I think it is like this: The martial art/sport -question leads to the practicability-question, this again leads to the "why practise kendo"-question. I don't know about the "what is kendo"-question, though, never thought into that direction; it seems quite obvious to me, isn't it?
If you first get to know kendo as "japanese fencing" or "art of the samurai", learning that you're not exactly learning what the samurai did (and in fact kendo is even quite different, I'd say) can be like losing the basis for all your learning. So "why practise kendo" can be a quite difficult question in the beginning.

Well, as a person that cannot call itself mature, I don't think your answer is a very good one, Charles. ("wasting time on asking the question as to why you train in kendo indicates a lack of maturity. You train because you do. Don't waste your time asking why.")
It can be seen, indeed, as a waste of time, but you will only realize that afterwards. And if you realized this, it isn't a waste of time anymore, isn't it? There are some questions one needs to ask. Like we say in Poland: Jak sie nie wywrucisz, to sie nie nauczysz. That means: If you don't stumble and fall at first, you're not gonna learn it.

[Jiyoui]

Oh, very interesting.

I think it is like this: The martial art/sport -question leads to the practicability-question, this again leads to the "why practise kendo"-question. I don't know about the "what is kendo"-question, though, never thought into that direction; it seems quite obvious to me, isn't it?
If you first get to know kendo as "japanese fencing" or "art of the samurai", learning that you're not exactly learning what the samurai did (and in fact kendo is even quite different, I'd say) can be like losing the basis for all your learning. So "why practise kendo" can be a quite difficult question in the beginning.

Well, as a person that cannot call itself mature, I don't think your answer is a very good one, Charles. ("wasting time on asking the question as to why you train in kendo indicates a lack of maturity. You train because you do. Don't waste your time asking why.")
It can be seen, indeed, as a waste of time, but you will only realize that afterwards. And if you realized this, it isn't a waste of time anymore, isn't it? There are some questions one needs to ask. Like we say in Poland: Jak sie nie wywrucisz, to sie nie nauczysz. That means: If you don't stumble and fall at first, you're not gonna learn it.

hmmmmmmmmmmmm



Why was I born? Why should I carry on living? Why do I have to work? And so on. This line of
thought is not necessarily meaningless but if we try hard to seek answers, “Why do it?”, then our
doubts and confusion will only increase, resulting in an unmanageable situation. Honen Shonin
(1133-1212) founder of the Jodo sect of Buddhism is reco rded to have said, “Just continue
single-mindedly with the invocation as a shortcut to nirvana”.

Again surely it must be said that there can be nothing more detrimental to our endeavours than to
consider as most correct our own shallow and immature ideas and to decide for ourselves all the
answers to the question “Why do it?” During ones years of immaturity, one must be especially
careful not to become a victim of ones own dogmatic attitude. When ones ideas and thoughts
seem incomplete seek the opinion of others or else just follow the instruction given by those who
are senior to oneself. This must surely be the correct path.

It is the same with the question “Why practice Kendo?” Does one refuse to practice Kendo
because this cannot easily be answered? Eve n if one enquired deeply into finding an answer to
this problem one would find it a most difficult problem to solve. Even if the problem could be
partially solved, ones answer will not necessarily amount to anything of real significance.

[ne0r]

Hm, thanks. I forgot that Noma had a chapter about this in his reader.

Well, it seems that I thought too much :)

[Charles Lockhar]

If you first get to know kendo as "japanese fencing" or "art of the samurai", learning that you're not exactly learning what the samurai did (and in fact kendo is even quite different, I'd say) can be like losing the basis for all your learning. So "why practise kendo" can be a quite difficult question in the beginning.

Hopefully I won't get fired upon too heavily for wandering off topic...

You know, I can relate to what you're saying all too well. I came to kendo from SMR jo, which, the way my teacher instructs, has a strong sword component ("You're a swordsman who happens to be carrying a staff today..."). I started under Quintin Chambers in 1997. I'd never heard of it, or anything about koryu, I'd basically been told by a friend that Quintin taught some really good stuff, so I went and watched him, liked what he was teaching, and started. I probably trained for a couple of years before I heard anything about koryu, and during that time I wouldn't have been able to tell you the name of what it was that I was training in, just "this is my jo. There are many like it, but this one is mine..."

I started kendo in 2004, and the first two years of training were really hard, I kept trying to make it a more dynamic, freestyle version of the swordsmanship I'd learned in SMR. I went through a lot of difficulty trying to impose on it what I thought it should be, rather than accepting it as it's own thing. It took me two years to start opening up to just letting it be kendo. And then it was like starting all over again from the very beginning.

Funny thing is, at that point when I just accepted it on it's own, I really started seeing a lot more similarity between the results of my SMR training and my kendo training. Not really in terms of technique, but in terms of what I just smash together as "the brainy stuff."

That said, I don't think my jo training ever helped my kendo, but I am convinced that my kendo training has done a lot for improving my jo.


Like we say in Poland: Jak sie nie wywrucisz, to sie nie nauczysz. That means: If you don't stumble and fall at first, you're not gonna learn it.I like that ;o)

-Charles

[enkorat]

Well.......

I respect Noma Hayashi very much, and I have read his reader and appreciate it very much.

On the other hand, I'm not sure if I agree with some of his logic.

In profession and training, I am in graduate school in order to become a scientist. And at the core of any research scientist, and perhaps any researcher, is the question of "why". The pursuit of understanding, of comprehension, of enlarging the sum total of human knowledge in some small way, is a motivating factor for myself and many of my colleagues.

And in some ways, Kendo is a refuge from the great uncertainty I face within my professional career, where I can simply set aside questions of "why" and follow the ideas of my senior. In doing so I can act instead of being paralyzed by over-analysis and uncertainty. And during practice it is a wonderful moment to be unburdened by thinking.

However, even within Kendo, it is an important part of training (ie. mental, moral and spiritual training referenced by our mission statement) to at least reflect upon the issue of "why", balanced by the understanding that answers don't always come right away, and a particular answer may change as one matures.

I agree it is a mark of "immaturity". But perhaps that may sound harsh with negative connotations, so perhaps we can say "a beginners mind". We didn't always walk into Kendo training with a fixed idea of what kendo was going to be. I certainly had preconceptions and prejudices (ie. I had already judged before beginning training), but through experience, both through training and through interacting with others in training, those views changed and continue to evolve.

I think eventually, we all have to come to some sort of personal understanding as to why we do Kendo. It becomes a very personal question... "what do I gain from doing Kendo?" If we don't answer this question, or avoid answering this question, there is no underlying motivation for doing Kendo in the first place.

[ne0r]

Charles, what you said confirms my (little, naive) idea of what kendo is all about and what has stayed with kendo through hundreds of years: "the brainy stuff". I think that in kendo we don't use koryu waza anymore (koryu means "old school", doesn't it?) , but we use the same mindset because this is what deserves to be preserved through generations. (Just an idea)

But unfortunately I don't know a lot about the mindset itself xD

"I think eventually, we all have to come to some sort of personal understanding as to why we do Kendo. It becomes a very personal question... "what do I gain from doing Kendo?" If we don't answer this question, or avoid answering this question, there is no underlying motivation for doing Kendo in the first place."
Well said. I think the answer to this question grows with the years... For example: level one: fun; level two: friends/community; ...