taitari?

[ghostdancer]

just found this on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UmJ0F0c-YQ&feature=related

now my question is apart from do you reckon that hurt?
is was it legal, deliberate or an accident

[bobdonny]

legal and deliberate, and god did it hurt (i reackon)

[ne0r]

I don't think it was deliberate. That's why we are told to do taiatari with your hands in chudan-no-kamae height.

Oh, and yes, I think it hurt.

[AlexM]

Definitely deliberate and it's not taiatari technically. Harada wanted to cancel a possible point or maybe send an intimidating message or just take advantage of Miyazaki being a bit lazy after the strike.

Legal? ummmm.... I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that kind of a push (and I have been) but then again it's a bad idea to leave yourself so open. It would have been up to the judges' discretion to give hansoku or not. They didn't deem it necessary so in that sense it was "legal", since legality is defined by whatever the shimpan deem to be legal or not :).

[Anonymous]

i found that amusing because thats exactly what my sensei was telling me would happen if i went in with my hands up like that...

[ghostdancer]

i found that amusing because thats exactly what my sensei was telling me would happen if i went in with my hands up like that...

As a matter of fact mine too, a rather graphic example thou aint it

[Badger]

Of course it hurt, the guy couldn't bloody stand up!

[Anonymous]

As a matter of fact mine too, a rather graphic example thou aint it

Well he demonstrated it on me, and showed us some other really mean stuff you could do to someone who went in like that.

[manjisan]

Well he demonstrated it on me, and showed us some other really mean stuff you could do to someone who went in like that.

Did you piss off your sensei?

[Anonymous]

No, I just volunteered to be a guinea pig, and I just love learning all those really nasty things you can do to people if they piss you off during keiko...

[manjisan]

No, I just volunteered to be a guinea pig, and I just love learning all those really nasty things you can do to people if they piss you off during keiko...

True, but in tournaments, the judges usually look down on such behaviour so only use it if you are willing to loose the match but get even with the person you are fighting.

[Anonymous]

I could care less about winning, just being able to kick some ass is good enough for me :p

[mashu19]

yeah its legal, and deliberate, and oh i feel their pain.

though on it being leagl or not. even if it is ok to do without getting a penalty or something, theres 2 parts to it. the mean thing to do and the right / respectfu thing to do. i think this comes into kendo alot, you get your pushes and shovers and you get the nice clean players. i prefer not to push cause i find it doesnt really achieve anything. also youll find judges and spectators alike will like the clean kendo over the pushing kendo.

this being said you can do it, and sadly people do, but its not respectful to your opponent. you gotta remember that with out them, you cant play kendo. so you should be nice to them, even though you are fighting.

[chainz]

yes legal but i don't think deliberated, they guy propicious the hit with he needed to cover himself; taitarin exercise teach u da to hit the arms as soon as the hit to the men was deliverated, we were practiced that last night, u need to procted yourself , sometimes they hit you on the face and it really hurts,

[bobdonny]

my friend puched an 8th dan hanshi in the face/mengane like that.... it was not deliberate and you could tell (thankfully so could the sensei~ ;) ) but in shiai that was deliberate, i may also do the same if some fool came running at me with his arms in the air.

[Usagi San]

But did you noticed that even after a splash like that HE KEPT THE SHINAI THE WHOLE TIME IN HIS HAND?
But I think that was just a side show moment of that fight.
Moments later he (Miyazaki) executed one of the best, most beautiful counter-attacks I've ever seen against a katate-tsuki of Harada.
And won the combat.

Eiga is great but Miyazaki rules.

[ghostdancer]

But did you noticed that even after a splash like that HE KEPT THE SHINAI THE WHOLE TIME IN HIS HAND?
But I think that was just a side show moment of that fight.
Moments later he (Miyazaki) executed one of the best, most beautiful counter-attacks I've ever seen against a katate-tsuki of Harada.
And won the combat.

Eiga is great but Miyazaki rules.

now i would be interested to see a vid of that, anyone got it please ?

[Raindrop]

Wow, I agree, a really nice example for us noobs why we need to keep our arms in men position until we're at a save distance again. When you see the slowmotion you can really tell he pulled up his arms and totally exposed himself. Our sensei told us this weekend to not pull up the shinai after a strike, and now I know why.

Btw, ouch! Yep, that must have REALLY hurt, mainly on his back, though. I think the fall knocked the air out of him.

[JoDuncan]

Some rolling techniques used in aikido / judo would be very helpful in cases like that.

[JSchmidt]

Some rolling techniques used in aikido / judo would be very helpful in cases like that.

Hah, I got hansoku for rolling out of the way last time I tried. (Silliest call ever)

[Mugu]

i found that amusing because thats exactly what my sensei was telling me would happen if i went in with my hands up like that...

Some sensei calls that "Turtle-waza" - at least mine does...

[turboyoshi]

When you see the slowmotion you can really tell he pulled up his arms and totally exposed himself.

This probably a case of, we're at a stage where it's not ok for us to emulate the higher ranks. Hmm, I'm assuming Miyazaki sensei knows what he's doing so I can't really critisize it. I've seen a lot of this happening in the youtube vids of the higher ranking sensei so there must be a reason they do it.

Look at some of the related vids. Eiga sensei does it in the vid where he got shoved almost out of the ring, then again in the tsuki-kote-men combo.

Is this a demonstration of sute-mi?

sean

[Charles Lockhar]

observation and a question:

One of the other guys at my dojo comes in like that arms high, and while I outweigh him by about 70 pounds, he's taller, about 6'2" or so (I'm 5'10"), and coming in like that has a lot more force for some reason than when he comes in "properly" (arms extended). Or maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Anyway, wrt the video, white was coming in pretty good, if red hadn't toppled him, it seems like white could have pushed him out, or at least pushed him close enough to the edge to have an advantage. Does that sound correct?

-Charles

[chainz]

that's true, what charles lockhard said, if you don't protect yourself you may hit the ground

[mashu19]

But did you noticed that even after a splash like that HE KEPT THE SHINAI THE WHOLE TIME IN HIS HAND?


He would have got a penalty if he let go, that`s why he held it i think. Still amazing that he didn`t drop it.

[nonamehandle]

Hah, I got hansoku for rolling out of the way last time I tried. (Silliest call ever)

yeah seems like a silly call. you sure it wasn't some other reason? dropping shinai, mooning the opponent as you rolled (bad sportsmanship) :laugh:, etc? either way, in your situation, i would choose to roll even with an hansoku; landing badly really strains the body (landing correctly over time also strains the body).

i am surprised that miyazaki didn't use any techniques to cushion his fall. kudos for him holding onto his shinai, but in all honesty, nearly all the kenshis that i have seen taken a fall have also held onto their shinais.

[Usagi San]

He would have got a penalty if he let go, that`s why he held it i think (...)

A penalty? Yeah... never thought about it. He probably was like:
"Oh man, I'm gonna smash myself in the middle of this beautiful Budokan floor... hum, just in case, I better don't let go of my shinai, you know? These shinpam might very well give me an hansoku..."

or was it more like:
"Oh sh!t, the world is upside-down, can't see, can't move, feel like a f..ing turtle.... but HEY, look: I kept my shinai, ehehe, just in case they want to hansoku me, you know?"

Fear of a penalty... yeah absolutely.

[mashu19]

A penalty? Yeah... never thought about it. He probably was like:
"Oh man, I'm gonna smash myself in the middle of this beautiful Budokan floor... hum, just in case, I better don't let go of my shinai, you know? These shinpam might very well give me an hansoku..."

or was it more like:
"Oh sh!t, the world is upside-down, can't see, can't move, feel like a f..ing turtle.... but HEY, look: I kept my shinai, ehehe, just in case they want to hansoku me, you know?"

Fear of a penalty... yeah absolutely.

I dont think fear of a penalty kept him holding the shinai, but more of a sub concious thing telling him not to let go. Every time i`ve fallen over i`ve always held on to it. Just a sub concious thought that makes you hold　on, not a fear of penalty.

[yoda-waza]

I've been there twice. All you post-match video experts can criticize Miyazaki's posture all you want but someday there will be come that occasion when you too will be stretching out for that men strike that lands just lands short and, in that same hands-up position - held only for only an eye-blink instant - your opponent bowls you over. It happens even to those at the highest levels of competition. Of course, none of you sideline experts would ever do that yourself because your sensei has told you not to. Care to tell that to Miyazaki's face?

I didn't think so.

[ghostdancer]

I've been there twice. All you post-match video experts can criticize Miyazaki's posture all you want but someday there will be come that occasion when you too will be stretching out for that men strike that lands just lands short and, in that same hands-up position - held only for only an eye-blink instant - your opponent bowls you over. It happens even to those at the highest levels of competition. Of course, none of you sideline experts would ever do that yourself because your sensei has told you not to. Care to tell that to Miyazaki's face?

I didn't think so.

Do you think he might demonstrate how easy it is to make that mistake in a personal sort of way then? as a sort of object lesson sort of thing

[XH XR6]

This sort of thing occurs at my club all the time. occasionaly members have been penalised in tournaments. They way it was explained is that it's a full contact martial art, some just make more contact.

Ben

[Yakov Macak]

Doesn't anybody think this is dangerous? What seem to have happened is that a player going full flight has been punched in the face by a player fully braced. It seems to me that the risk of neck or back injury on impact or of concussion or fractured skull when the player's head hits the floor is quite high. As a shinpan, if I thought that a player had done this deliberately I would be pushing for disqualification. As players, shinpans and instructors we have a duty of care to each other or those under our control, and to deliberately take such an action or allow it breaches that duty, in my view. I wonder what the verdict would be if a player who suffered a serious injury in such circumstances took legal action against the opponent and those in charge. In Australia, I would not be surprised if the judgement went against those who committed or allowed such an action. (I am not a lawyer by the way)

Personally, if I thought someone was trying to do this to me deliberately, it would cease to be a kendo match and become something much more personal.

Looking forward to further opinions!

[ghostdancer]

of course it dangerous, it a Martial Art !
its meant to be dangerous
The two players in the video are exemplary kenshi of impeccable skills and know exactly what they are doing, as do the shimpan, as one of the previous posters pointed out Mr Miyzaki got up and won the contest "Moments later he (Miyazaki) executed one of the best, most beautiful counter-attacks I've ever seen against a katate-tsuki of Harada."

its a rough art, you will get damaged at some point bruises and relatively common deal with it

Oh and welcome to the forums

[Paikea]

Doesn't anybody think this is dangerous? Clearly. I'm not partial to marbles, cards or cucumber sandwiches and tea, so I do this.

Personally, if I thought someone was trying to do this to me deliberately, it would cease to be a kendo match and become something much more personal.Like, you'd go and punch somebody out? Personally, I'd learn something about balance and being vulnerable when my hands are high.

Legal action? Unthinkable.

[Fred27]

just found this on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UmJ0F0c-YQ&feature=related

now my question is apart from do you reckon that hurt?
is was it legal, deliberate or an accident

Jebus! Thats a kendo taiatari? I'd like to try that one! :D

[Obukan_dude]

Clearly. I'm not partial to marbles, cards or cucumber sandwiches and tea, so I do this.
Something about "Finding and controlling the little monster within you", correct? ;)
Speaking of monsters, how're the beginner's classes coming along?

[Paikea]

PM's my man, PM's....must not reveal secret beer-induced kendo ramblings on Internet.

[Theodore]

Like, you'd go and punch somebody out? .

Not during the taikai, that's what the parking lot is for. :ermm:

[theorganmouse]

Has he done it again? I know when it happened to me I was damn certain it wouldn't happen again skull and hard floor make for a painful colision

[CH0ZEN]

I looked at the video and perhaps it was a heat of the moment type lapse in judgment? I'm not sure though as some of our sensei use a higher taiatari, when we lift our hands to teach us how vulnerable and off-balance we truly are in that position.

[Usagi San]

I looked at the video and perhaps it was a heat of the moment type lapse in judgment?(...)

I agree with you. I see it more as a "get out of here" push :cool:. A little energetic one maybe, but not like he really wants to harm his opponent.
And it was an All Japan semi-final :eek:, so it must have been a moment a little tense for both kenshi... just a little I'd guess.

[007]

I always have big guys bull rushing me like that in tournaments, trying to push me out or something... now I know what to do. :laugh:
p.s. so is this really ok or not? my words up there depends heavily on the answer.

[chainz]

i found this taitari on the web for a san-dan exam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1hdDT5-RMU
when i come to a test should be hard the taitari or the should be more focus on shiai and techniques
'cause this guy run out the other guy

[Anonymous]

I always have big guys bull rushing me like that in tournaments, trying to push me out or something... now I know what to do. :laugh:
p.s. so is this really ok or not? my words up there depends heavily on the answer.


From what I was told is that if the dude is just rushing in like that just knocking him on his ass is alright, but going up to the person and doing it is a no-no.

[chainz]

it seems that, he tried debana kote, i guess he could use his right shoulder to stop him

[Yakov Macak]

Thanks for the welcome, however I must say that I am disappointed with the level of discussion and disagree with what has been said:

“Kendo is dangerous, and it is meant to be that way”: - Do you really mean that? So actions with a significant risk of injury to the opponent are part of the game? The yoko men to the ear, the tsuki under the men, or to the upper chest or shoulder, the do cut to the elbow are all OK? I don’t think you can really defend that argument. We all accept that these things can happen unintentionally occasionally, but if they start to happen too often, then someone is being careless or worse.

Kendo is not dangerous, nor is it meant to be. It is actually very safe compared to most contact sports - consider the injury rate in games like Australian Rules football, rugby league, soccer, lacrosse, ice hockey (I don’t really know about gridiron), and there is no comparison. Of course in most of these sports there are rules designed to protect the head and neck of the participants simply because the risks of serious injury are unacceptable.

Remarks about cucumber sandwiches etc are not really arguments, just cheap shots, and not worthy of reply.

If I felt that someone was deliberately trying to injure another player, or being reckless with their safety, I would say that they have abused the trust and respect between opponents, which to me is part of the spirit of Kendo. I see this sort of action as similar to sliding into base with your spikes up, throwing a bean ball, bowling a 'beamer' in cricket, a head high tackle in rugby etc, or a deliberately late tackle in soccer. These are all well outside the rules because of the high risk of causing injury. When they occur, particularly among skilled players, they are interpreted as deliberate attempts to put people out of the game by injuring them. Is that how we want Kendo to develop? As an instructor I could not allow that person to practise at my Club, and as a shinpan or administrator, I could not allow that attitude to creep into my competition or organization.

“Legal action? – unthinkable” Have a look at the BKA Website and all their Risk Management and Health and Safety measures. They haven’t introduced these for the fun of it. I believe in the USA waivers are often used (I really don’t know anything about the US legal system). In Australia we are told that a waiver does not relieve the responsible person or body of the duty of care to their members, or of the liability if something goes wrong.

“p.s. so is this really ok or not?” My answer is no, as explained above. However there is absolutely nothing wrong with correct tai-atari as shown in the 3 dan grading video in my view.

Having watched the video a few more times, I cant really tell whether the action is deliberate or involuntary, although I think at that level you would expect the player to be able to control their reactions in that situation. I understand that the judgement was considered to reflect the shinpan’s belief that it was unintentional.

I repeat my opinion that the forces operating in this situation (neck and upper spine on initial contact, head on floor when landing) pose an unacceptable risk of serious injury to the participants. I'm not talking about a few bruises here, or being knocked over when receiving a correct tai-atari, and I am somewhat concerned that some people seem to think that this action is a legitimate or admirable way of practising Kendo.

Sorry to be so wordy, but I feel that this is an important issue, and worth exploring a bit.

[H.Sandsleth]

Imo this video shows Harada losing his cool and doing something that he knew would at least have an unpleasant outcome. And shinpan did nothing... I think Macak has a good point here. If stuff like this is tolerated, we need gear that will protect the spine and back of the head. Not all people bowl over and recover as gracefully as Miyazaki.

[Paikea]

...
Remarks about cucumber sandwiches etc are not really arguments, just cheap shots, and not worthy of reply.

I did not mean it to be that way. I do believe that kendo is inherently an energetic, risky activity, and in a spirited shiai things happen. If one is not prepared to accept that, then they should consider doing something else. I've been put on my butt several times by sensei and others, I didn't sue anybody. I shook it off, got back up and got back into the fight - just like we see here.


If I felt that someone was deliberately trying to injure another player, or being reckless with their safety, I would say that they have abused the trust and respect between opponents, which to me is part of the spirit of Kendo. I see this sort of action as similar to sliding into base with your spikes up, throwing a bean ball, bowling a 'beamer' in cricket, a head high tackle in rugby etc, or a deliberately late tackle in soccer. These are all well outside the rules because of the high risk of causing injury. When they occur, particularly among skilled players, they are interpreted as deliberate attempts to put people out of the game by injuring them. Is that how we want Kendo to develop? As an instructor I could not allow that person to practise at my Club, and as a shinpan or administrator, I could not allow that attitude to creep into my competition or organization.
Clearly you and many others see this particular situation differently. Clearly, the shimpan did not see the intent to harm and they are the ultimate authority, are they not? Attempting to read intent into a video after the fact seems like armchair quarterbacking to me.


“Legal action? – unthinkable” Have a look at the BKA Website and all their Risk Management and Health and Safety measures. They haven’t introduced these for the fun of it. I believe in the USA waivers are often used (I really don’t know anything about the US legal system). In Australia we are told that a waiver does not relieve the responsible person or body of the duty of care to their members, or of the liability if something goes wrong.
Yes we use a waiver - but unless the conduct goes to the malicious intent to harm - and here I believe it did not, then I believe the participants have already accepted the risk of injury in the course of the activity and that a suggestion to call in the lawyers is just not kendo. Obviously, you (and at least Ben) feel differently.

I found the suggestion that there might have to be some physical rekoning after the shiai was over to be really questionable.


Sorry to be so wordy, but I feel that this is an important issue, and worth exploring a bit.I also feel that safety is an important issue, and I regret that my response was taken the way it was.

[ben]

I agree that this happens from time to time. But you can't say that it is good kendo. It is sometimes used as a training or motivational tool, but only in the dojo. It is not a shiai waza.

Look at Harada's hands: they clearly strike Miyazaki with considerable force, in the throat and face. Perhaps if Harada had his hands near his hara and had achieved the same effect just with a sharp hip action we could fault Miyazaki for being unbalanced. But there is no-one who can receive a two-fisted strike to the face whilst moving forward as fast as Miyazaki was and remain standing. Or perhaps there are, if that is a technique that they are trained to expect and deal with (Sumo springs to mind). It proves nothing and achieves nothing. There was no intent to turn that into a point-scoring waza on Harada's part. He just wanted to put Miyazaki on the floor. IMHO this technique is on par with ashi-barai.

Of course Miyazaki knew just to deal with it and move on. Once he'd got his breath back he probably used it as motivation to win. Not in anger so much as that it was a clear sign of self-doubt from Harada. Miyazaki would have felt, I think, that the next point would be his.

b

PS - These shinpan are the best of the best, but caught in an extraordinary circumstance I think they made the wrong decision. I would love to know what the debriefing session was like after this taikai. Maybe one day I'll get to ask Fukumoto sensei about it.

[mashu19]

I agree that this happens from time to time. But you can't say that it is good kendo. It is sometimes used as a training or motivational tool, but only in the dojo. It is not a shiai waza.

Look at Harada's hands: they clearly strike Miyazaki with considerable force, in the throat and face. Perhaps if Harada had his hands near his hara and had achieved the same effect just with a sharp hip action we could fault Miyazaki for being unbalanced. But there is no-one who can receive a two-fisted strike to the face whilst moving forward as fast as Miyazaki was and remain standing. Or perhaps there are, if that is a technique that they are trained to expect and deal with (Sumo springs to mind). It proves nothing and achieves nothing. There was no intent to turn that into a point-scoring waza on Harada's part. He just wanted to put Miyazaki on the floor. IMHO this technique is on par with ashi-barai.

Of course Miyazaki knew just to deal with it and move on. Once he'd got his breath back he probably used it as motivation to win. Not in anger so much as that it was a clear sign of self-doubt from Harada. Miyazaki would have felt, I think, that the next point would be his.

b

PS - These shinpan are the best of the best, but caught in an extraordinary circumstance I think they made the wrong decision. I would love to know what the debriefing session was like after this taikai. Maybe one day I'll get to ask Fukumoto sensei about it.

I agree 100% with you here. In the video Harada clearly had his elbows bent, then as Miyazaki comes in, Haradas arms straighten and his hands hit Miyazaki in the upper throat. This seriously isnt kendo. It can happen and someone get knocked over or trip. But this isnt a simple lose of balance.

This should be illegal, but its sad that its not. Seriously if you want to play kendo you have to remember your oppenent. Without them you cant play. So its a shame Harada couldnt even show that respect. Funny though how after it all he still went on to lose.

[Jiyoui]

I would still have to say that kendo carry it's inherent risks. Yes, "Kendo" is not dangerous, but the practice of Kendo can be dangerous. There's a distinct difference between what is kendo and what is being done that is kendo. There are always risks associated with an activity that is "inherently an energetic" (Paikea).
Compared with other contact sports, as Macak pointed out, kendo is considered to be more reserved in terms of contact but the spirit of competition is as livly as ever. I think that this spirit is what causes these sort of "dangers" in such activities.

"If I felt that someone was deliberately trying to injure another player, or being reckless with their safety, I would say that they have abused the trust and respect between opponents, which to me is part of the spirit of Kendo....."
-Yakov Macak

I would have to completely agree on this statement. Nothing more to be said.

Many of us here have examined the clip and have been trying to find the intent behind the shove and I think that is the most important point to point out. We all know that in the end, it is the intent that you have in your heart, behind ever move that you make, that makes every move important in kendo.
I would hope that Harada did not have the intent of actually causing "harm" (intentional shoving or not) when he shoved Miyazaki, and I think that is the most important thing we have to keep in mind.

[Paikea]

I agree that this happens from time to time. But you can't say that it is good kendo.I agree with that, 100%.


PS - These shinpan are the best of the best, but caught in an extraordinary circumstance I think they made the wrong decision. I would love to know what the debriefing session was like after this taikai. Maybe one day I'll get to ask Fukumoto sensei about it.I'd love to hear about that if it ever comes to pass. Personally, I honestly don't think Harada was in the "intent to harm" mindset. I think he was trying to break Miyazaki's spirit, and it seriously backfired.

[turboyoshi]

I asked a question (see #22) about why high ranking sensei might be raising their hands so high and it seems to have been overlooked. Some people on here seem to think it's a mistake but after seeing several other vids where Miyazaki and Eiga do this, I think there must be something else.

Then just recently, cyber dojo put up a q&a page that has this answer:

For example, you keep your hands above your head because you are too close to your opponent so you cannot take chudan to show zanshin.

Does this seem reasonable? Anyone else care to weigh in on this issue?

sean

[jmarsten]

Imo this video shows Harada losing his cool and doing something that he knew would at least have an unpleasant outcome. And shinpan did nothing... I think Macak has a good point here. If stuff like this is tolerated, we need gear that will protect the spine and back of the head. Not all people bowl over and recover as gracefully as Miyazaki.

It is a relatively easy thing to do, just push up under their arms. It is a rather stupid thing to do because you could really hurt someone badly and for what, to keep from losing a point? To show what a tough guy you are?
We teach everyone to look at their toes if they're going down so they don't crack their skull on the floor.
I only see a few people in our neighborhood doing these sorts of "technique" nowadays. About 20 years ago it was very common to see this clotheslining technique as well as the left fist to the face in tsubazerai.

Obviously the legal ramifications on injury vary and in the US it is different in each state but by and large unless you can prove malice on the part of the senshu and negligence on the part of the shinpan you don't have much of a case.

[Mokujin77]

Watched the original vid. Ouch! You can almost see the air leaving his lungs as he hits the deck. :eek:

Just a quick side note to this thread: What is the deal regarding taiatari? I was told it was frowned upon these days. Is it still considered acceptable to give your opponent a hefty body-check to open them up for attack?

[JoDuncan]

Whenever Japanese kenshi have come to visit us I have been blown away at just how strong they come in for tai atari. I'm used to always reducing the force (big lenny doesn't want to crush the little uns) but these guys... BAYM! Nearly take your head off if you aren't on the ball.

I think it's probably good for us newbs to encourage going forward... but not like the video shown, i'd expect to get my ass handed to me if i did anyhting like that.

[Koki]

Last time I checked, Kendo is still a martial art... not a dance...So Harada shoved Miyazaki... big deal! He shouldn't have raised his arms up in the first place.

One time I fumikomi right on one of my opponent's left foot and tore his toe nail. He was complaining to the sensei that I was too rough. Sensei asked "Should you just stand there if a train is coming right at you?"

Then I was also taught that after hitting the men my fists should go straight forward into the opponent's men, and that I should always have a killing spirit... It's not child's play, kill or be killed.

I think kendoka outside Japan tend to romaticize the art too much. Before you get to the mental activities of kendo, you have to work on your physical activities first. So don't expect mudansha and yudansha to play kendo like hachidan.

[always_learning]

Last time I checked, Kendo is still a martial art... not a dance...So Harada shoved Miyazaki... big deal! He shouldn't have raised his arms up in the first place.

One time I fumikomi right on one of my opponent's left foot and tore his toe nail. He was complaining to the sensei that I was too rough. Sensei asked "Should you just stand there if a train is coming right at you?"

Then I was also taught that after hitting the men my fists should go straight forward into the opponent's men, and that I should always have a killing spirit... It's not child's play, kill or be killed.

I think kendoka outside Japan tend to romaticize the art too much. Before you get to the mental activities of kendo, you have to work on your physical activities first. So don't expect mudansha and yudansha to play kendo like hachidan.

Agreed it is quite physical in Japan, no so much that if they see that you have become wrong footed they will push just to see you fall, but a all out agresive taitari to get you on the backfoot and defensive is all part of training.

I am always being told NOT TO LIFT MY HANDS AND SHINAI UP AFTER A STRIKE, as I see it its almost as slicing through them going forward to the point that your shinais tsuba hits their men. The key point is that you are not clubbing down on a harp seal but with a lot of tenouchi the top of there men is tapped and you are almost slicing through as you are moving forward (cutting forward). At the end your hands are then in a position to perform a strong taitari on the upper dou mune. Thus with your arms a slightly bent and fists on there dou mune you absolutely have the center line and control.

One older nanadan at my club has a "wicked" men, taitari from the upper dou mune, hiki, tsuki, lovely straight back and flowing yet decisive movements, a thing of beauty to watch and soul destroying thing to receive.