Chivalry in keiko?

[gordonpatti]

I was wondering what the general opinion is on the place of "chivalry" during free sparring. That is how much kindness to show to one's opponent. How much of one's strength should one use and how much consideration for their comfort and safety (in terms of small bruises, nothing serious) one should have for his/her opponent? And when a man fights a woman, does he not use as much force as he would on another man? I realize how sexist this sounds but I have a younger sister whom I would like men to take it easy on during practice and not fight as forcefully as they would against me. And I apologize to any women that I have offended. I would like everyone's opinions on this matter.

[Kagerou]

In my experience if you beat on someone, someone else will beat on you.

It has nothing to do with chivalry...which in my opinion is as dead as the knights that followed that code.

It's about have normal human decency and not treating your friends like target dummies.

[ahmed61086]

I believe in total domination of all opponents. Especially of those who are of the weaker sex.















J/K :laugh:

[chainz]

in my short experience you may use a little bit chivary but no everybody uses it true beat someone esle before beat you, it happened to me once, when fighting awoman you may reducethe impact or the strengh of your hit expecially the men hit, i did once to a fellow kendoka and she feel kind deazy my hit was way to hard, and that moment i start using my body and half of the force of my arms to get a nice,clean impact, for the bruses unles people practice lot you gonna get lots bruses expecially w] kote or dou hits.
many people misses kote and do hits I have many bruses to prove it jejeje!

[Anime12478]

I think that the principles of chivalry do exist in some form these days, or at least in the US if you look beyond popular media. But I don't think it exists in the same form that we think of in Kendo, or at least for the purposes you are thinking of.

I understand your concern for people to not overpower your little sister during keiko, but I am pretty sure she knows what she can and cannot take. So if there is a problem, she'd probably voice those concerns to you, if not the person she's fighting against. Some people do hit harder than others during keiko and that's just one of those facts about Kendo, but it's up to the individual person to decide whether or not they will use muscle to potentially cause injury.

If someone were to hold back because of your sex or physical appearance, I'd feel pretty miffed about that. Experience is okay, but not based on how someone looks. Similar events happened to me throughout my life and still happens today and it tends to disturb me a bit if it seems unreasonable. So doing so might be a detriment to someone's kendo then just going all out.

[nonamehandle]

Yes

I do tailor my kendo according to the opponent that i am facing. in practice, i use less physical aspect when facing kenshis who are less physically adept; this often (but not always) includes woman, children, and older kenshis...including senseis. as others have pointed it out, i think of it not as "chivalry", but as something that a decent person does. you probably meant to be understood in that manner as well i think.

[Anonymous]

I just try not to hurt the other person, but I still won't go easy on anyone because I sure as hell am not expecting, or wanting anyone to go easy on me.

[Bokushingu]

the term chivalry is very broad but complex. To me it's kind of like Budo. It's hard for me to understand. But I think you can do your best against any opponent no matter the gender, age, size, whatever so long as you thoughts are pure.

[JCM]

I think the best thing I heard on the subject regarding someone going hard on a lady was "is waza, not violence". I am not going to be as physical against a lady or a much lighter guy (gender doesn't make a difference), but try to use more finesse and speed. I try to watch my tai-tari to avoid knocking anyone over. I think one has to be careful with people smaller in height, is easy to accidentally punch the mengane after cutting men, we all know how unpleasant that is.

I have also seen ladies that use gender as a free license too (exaggerating falls, very poor and painful tsukis, etc...), that is just as bad as pounding on weaker people.

However, if you are a lady or a small guy who goes hard on someone and try to wrestle them in tsuba zeriai I think is reasonable for you to expect a respond in kind, without excesses of course. I know women who are very physical and can pull it off, I have to say I enjoy fencing them.

[Martch]

Inow women who are very physical and can pull it off, I have to say I enjoy fencing them.

I watched a shiai recently where a large bloke was fighting a small woman, and he shoved her onto the floor on more than one occasion. This wasn't a taiatari, it was a shove. He got a shinai thrust under his men and across his throat for his troubles and had to take time out to check for damage. Everyone felt so sorry for him.

[Raindrop]

And I apologize to any women that I have offended. I would like everyone's opinions on this matter.


No need to apologize for something as factual as nature. :) It's a simple fact that we women are generally physically weaker than men. We're simply smaller and have less muscle mass, that is normal physics. Guys are generally stronger. No sexism in that. In karate for example when I spar with a guy who has arms twice the size of mine, then of course I'm the one who's gonne end up with swollen, blue bruises the next day and not he. :3

And eventhough I'm far from being in Bogu yet, I don't want to be beaten senseless by someone just cause they think they need to give me as hard a beating as a guy twice my size. That wouldn't help me and my Kendo at all.

I don't care if it's called chivalry, common decency and simply being nice, fact is that you should always adapt your Kendo (any budo style actually) to your opponent during training. Of course help him/her improve by raising the bar, but don't use the other person as a punching bag, that serves absolutely no purpose and helps neither you, nor the other person.

I don't want guys to hold back, just don't make such a hard impact. You can have good kendo without the big ouch factor (little ouch factor is allowed xD ).

[JCM]

I watched a shiai recently where a large bloke was fighting a small woman, and he shoved her onto the floor on more than one occasion. This wasn't a taiatari, it was a shove. He got a shinai thrust under his men and across his throat for his troubles and had to take time out to check for damage. Everyone felt so sorry for him.


mmh, I wonder if I was there too, was it like two weeks ago?. The tsuki got the audience clapping...

[Martch]

It's entirely likely, it happened in Dublin. I loved the fact she successfully disguised it as tsuki and got away with it. Respect!

[Manuka]

I do not think "chivalry" has much to do with it. I think it is more correct kendo, or not.
In kendo the goal is to strike a specific target with the shinai through technique and speed.
Not to knock your opponent over, that is sumo, a different sport.
Hitting too hard indicates poor Tenouchi, lack of control of your shinai, as does hitting anywhere except the specified target areas, or striking with any part of the shinai other than the monouchi.
Kendo uses a shinai not a bludgeon. The action is always described as a "cut", not a beat down, chop, whack.

With correct kendo you should not have to change because the opponent is big, small, old, male, female, or whatever.

In a different post on whether to take it easy on an opponent, Neil corrected me when I stated that you should always do your best. Neil's point was that keiko should be tempered by the difference in skill. So the weaker player learns something other than just losing all the time. The stronger player also learns by teaching. Nothing like teaching to show how much you do not know.

[JCM]

It's entirely likely, it happened in Dublin. I loved the fact she successfully disguised it as tsuki and got away with it. Respect!

It was the most emotional match I have been present at, everyone watching got right into it. It was like a David and Goliath thing, it was great to see the audience showing all that decorum and encouragement.

For the record, I wouldn't like to anger that lady (specially given her grade) she can turn into a serious bundle of pain and punishment. This is what I was talking about on my earlier post, watching a lady with that amount of determination and strenght despite her size is inspiring.

Oh, and disguise or not, I don't think the referees would have been too willing to caution her, given all the punishment she received beforehand

[turboyoshi]

It was the most emotional match I have been present at, everyone watching got right into it.

Got youtube? :smiley: I can't help but be curious now...

sean

[enkorat]

No need to apologize for something as factual as nature. :) It's a simple fact that we women are generally physically weaker than men. We're simply smaller and have less muscle mass, that is normal physics. Guys are generally stronger.

Pffffttt....

Women are generally smaller, faster, and have smaller target areas so they're harder to hit....

Can't tell you how many times I've seen the "oh I am girl! Heeeheee! <cute smile>"

...followed by a bloodcurdling kiai and "BAM!" and the flags go up, and then said girl goes "oh look! I won! Heeeheee!"

Its a trap I tell you...

[bobdonny]

Regarding Initial question, there is no standard answer.

Your purest kendo reflects yourself as a person. Therefore how you act in real life is reflected in your kendo. Im not sure you can change that even if you tried cept over a very long time.

Dont foget the tennents of Budo (and kendo / hakama pleats) that we all should aim for.

Jin: benevolence
Gi: honor or justice
Rei: courtesy and etiquette
Chi: wisdom, intellligence
Shin: sincerity
Chu: loyalty
Koh: piety

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think in the keiko situation you have to ask yourself how much you are learning by pushing around the weaker opponent, and how much they are learning in that situation.

[enkorat]

Joking aside, I would recommend reading the following:

http://www.kendo.org.uk/pmwiki.php/Main/Attitudestojigeiko

Particularly section 5 and 6 in part 2. It is a very well written article.

[Ignatz]

I think that if you think in terms of how hard you hit, you have a fundamental misunderstanding.
You are probably slow, too.

[JCM]

I think that if you think in terms of how hard you hit, you have a fundamental misunderstanding.
You are probably slow, too.

Sorry Iggy, what post is that in answer to?, getting confused....

[Raindrop]

Pffffttt....

Women are generally smaller, faster, and have smaller target areas so they're harder to hit....

Can't tell you how many times I've seen the "oh I am girl! Heeeheee! <cute smile>"

...followed by a bloodcurdling kiai and "BAM!" and the flags go up, and then said girl goes "oh look! I won! Heeeheee!"

Its a trap I tell you...

I have no idea what you're talking about... *cute smile* :cheeky:

[Fonsz]

This is a nice one if ever I saw one. No zanshin here he got clobbered without knowing it.:eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvfgVj-IAsg

[Gideon]

Doesn't the idea of chivilry imply that the person whom you're going up against is weaker/worse/unworthy of your time etc etc, in all respects? I may have a distorted notion of the concept of chivilry, but it doesn't make much sense when there is something to learn from everyone we have keiko with.

No, I don't mean to grant unlimited license to beat up on someone smaller or newer - but then, your question as to chivilry really digs for an answer to a deeper question - what is the relationship between people doing keiko supposed to be like?

[ghostdancer]

The trouble with getting "over enthusiastic" when practicing with some one smaller and weaker (not necessarily less skilled ) is that sooner or later probably sooner you will get a slap off someone far more skilled than you.


only done it once, the lady concerned handed me a beating, she simply went up a gear and knocked the cra*p out of me. by then end (only about 5 mins) seemed like a lot lot longer
Simply put, i could not defend my self, and considering i am about a foot taller and outweigh her by about 100lb, not good, really not good

She did not really hurt me (well only my pride) just very, very firmly put me back in my place. I know i did not give her the respect her grade required

For some reason my Sensei and the Sempai found it highly amusing

Any way the lesson was well learned,
Respect is a the heart of "chivalry", and at the heart of kendo as well
Just remember no matter how good or how "bad" you think you are theres always someone better out there

[turboyoshi]

Doesn't the idea of chivilry imply that the person whom you're going up against is weaker/worse/unworthy of your time etc etc, in all respects?

Ah the feministas got you reprogrammed already. :)
I see chivalry as being appropriately respectful. There's no "unworthiness" implied, at least not from me and not from anyone I know.

If you are practicing with someone who is that much weaker than you, it gives you an opportunity to work on waza you wouldn't be able to use against a stronger person. You can still teach and learn with your partner. You can still focus your best efforts and make your partner feel like you are still working hard so they don't feel like they're wasting your time. This is proper chivalry, imo.

sean

[Gideon]

I think what you've described turboyoshi, is actually substantially more liberal than the actual notion of 'chivalry (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chivalry)'.

So we can recharacterize the term chivalry in modern terms, but then it is no longer chivalry. Especially in the south, it's more like... genteelness. Even in the idea of genteelness, there's been a fair amount of 'feministas reprogramming' that distinguishes your 'proper chivalry' from the more commonly understood use of the term - see multiple instances of literature and even the post earlier that inexorably links the use of the term chivalry to knights and their actions during midevil times.

As a personal aside, when you have absent/poor models for a father figure and strong women in your family - one of whom raised three boys on her own - one tends to question certain societal constructs that would otherwise lessen an individual's worth while exalting another. At the end of the day, everyone still retains their dignity as a human. What you do with that dignity is another thing entirely. ;)

All that said, I don't think any of this really has much to do with how you approach keiko. Although I'm still learning, I would assume that kendo has its own internal definitions as to how to approach a practice that is very kendo and very, very little midevil knighthood. Sure there may be some similarities, but if you're looking for an answer to a kendo question - especially the one as to how you should approach an aspect of kendo training; kendo (read: sensei) is probably the proper source for the answer. Frankly, I still don't understand how I'm supposed to act during ji-keiko. Sometimes I treat it too much like shiai, sometimes too much like kakarigeiko, sometimes just too bloodly lazy. I bet the more I ask/listen to my sensei/sempai, and the more I do it, the answer will come - maybe. :)

Cheers

[nysamurai]

Also to the original question;

What goes around, comes around. I'd like to think of the "chivelry" being suggested as simply translated to "respect" for all. If you give respect, you'll get respect in return. Bullying an opponent to demonstrate what a bad-ass you are is just foolishness; some days you get the bear, and some days the bear gets you. Ones fighting should always be adjusted according to the circumstance; from all out when you suddenly realize that you're out there with someone who is clearly better than you are that day, to moderate when it is you who have the clear advantage. We fight to win. It's a sport. But sportsmanship, chivelry, and respect have their place.

[Ignatz]

Sorry Iggy, what post is that in answer to?, getting confused....

Post #1.

If you are thinking "Should I not hit this person as hard as I hit someone else (he-man that I am" you might be more suited to seal hunting rather than kendo.

People who play kendo like it is a seal hunt are not very good at kendo and are usually slow too.

So if you "normal" kendo is smash and bash, you are focused on the wrong thing.

[Charles Lockhar]

Post #1.

If you are thinking "Should I not hit this person as hard as I hit someone else (he-man that I am" you might be more suited to seal hunting rather than kendo.

People who play kendo like it is a seal hunt are not very good at kendo and are usually slow too.

So if you "normal" kendo is smash and bash, you are focused on the wrong thing.

I am unfortunately sober this morning, and therefore am having comprehension problems. Are you being critical of the idea that a person should hit everybody the same, and that should be as hard as possible, or are you being critical of the idea you should be selective in how much force should be applied depending on the recipient?

-Charles

[Gessho]

I just try not to hurt the other person, but I still won't go easy on anyone because I sure as hell am not expecting, or wanting anyone to go easy on me.

I agree. I think if you find yourself wacking away with abandon then you have stepped away from the world kendo and into a mild form of cage fighting.

Sometimes I find myself taking it easy with women but then I remind myself that they have a right to be treated as serious kenshi like anyone else. As long as I stick to the best kendo that I can do there is no problem.

[JByrd]

It isn't surprising to me that lot of people find the issue of showing respect to one's opponent in keiko somewhat confusing, given that it is happening in the context of striking them. Even the sheer aggression involved in making a chance to strike doesn't fit with our usual notions of how we show respect to other people.

Tough opponents can build us up the fastest, or tear us down just as fast. The right level of intensity can help us strengthen our ability to withstand pressure and intimidation, but too much can dampen people's enthusiasm, and even make them quit. It seems oxymoronic, but a really good ass-kicking needs to be delivered in the most delicate and sensitive way.

I like to think of my dojo mates as if we are a small army unit in training. We will need to rely on each other in combat, so our primary training goal is to build everyone up as much as possible. If the toughest guy treats his fellow soldiers like the enemy, and beats them to a pulp in training, he'll have to face the real enemy all alone.

[enkorat]

Yes I think that this is a very difficult issue to resolve, partly I think because there is quite a bit of cultural differences coming into play.

The traditional concept of training in kendo is that as a beginner, we feel as if we're being thrashed around and being abused, particularly if we haven't grown up in an traditional Japanese/Asian environment.

For some people who don't make the realization that this was actually carefully calibrated pushing on the part of the senior, the idea the beginner comes away with is that its a carte blanche for abuse. The awful part is watching the beginner then go and abuse a lower ranking kohai.

And it doesn't help that watching correct kendo looks extremely violent to an outsider.

I think that we have all been taken to our limit by our instructors on numerous occasions. To beginners watching me fight with an instructor and being instructed in the traditional manner, it might look very abusive, particularly if they're not really aware of whats going on.

I think that its important to accept that a sensei will always seek to push a student regardless of what size or gender they are to their limit, and that part of being an instructor is comprehending where that limit lies for each student. Therefore an instructor will never "take it easy" on a student, within the context of the student's limits.

On the idea of fighting a person around my level, I don't normally think about "taking it easy" at all. I do take stock of my opponent and shift my strategies around, but things like playing sumo during kendo isn't about "taking it easy" but rather in my opinion doing bad kendo. So is clubbing your opponent. Regardless of whether or not your opponent is a child or a big hulking man, clubbing with the right hand is bad kendo. With much younger children, yes I do consciously think about being lighter in my cuts, but for example with a young teenage shodan I practice with, I really can't "take it easy" because he'll just beat me.

Men get all hung up on their muscles and their size, but we have bigger target areas and we have to use a heavier shinai. Women and children have smaller target areas and use lighter shinais, and favor different techniques than adult men do. Bigger opponents can be seen coming from a mile away, and smaller person or woman's issoku itto is a bigger opponent's chikama. Women tend to be faster, more level-headed than men, and on the whole have better endurance than most men I know.

But also, sometimes you have to experience bad kendo in order to learn how to deal with it. In a perfect world people won't try to pull crap on you while you're doing kendo, but sometimes, you fight someone who isn't quite playing as nicely as you do. And what then, roll over? Go home and cry? Lose your cool and sweep the legs?

So in the end always "going easy" I think hurts us in the long run. I'm not advocating a throwdown Cobra-kai kinda mentality, but I do think that we need to always fight sincerely.

[Anonymous]

I should find some way of having excellent seal hunt kendo...

[Ignatz]

I am unfortunately sober this morning, and therefore am having comprehension problems. Are you being critical of the idea that a person should hit everybody the same, and that should be as hard as possible, or are you being critical of the idea you should be selective in how much force should be applied depending on the recipient?

-Charles

If you are focusing on hitting as hard as possible, your kendo will not be good. So if you lose the idea that you are killing a baby seal you will not have to be selective.
In all my years of playing kendo I have never played anybody who hit as hard as possible that was any good.
On the other hand I have played really good people who didn't hit particularly hard but raised a nice welt.

[Charles Lockhar]

The trouble with getting "over enthusiastic" when practicing with some one smaller and weaker (not necessarily less skilled ) is that sooner or later probably sooner you will get a slap off someone far more skilled than you.

Probably this is going to make me sound dumb, but I'm not sure I'd even recognize a "beat down" intended to make a point if I received one. I'm just not that clever.

If during shiai keiko people are/were trying to give me a bit of a pounding to get it through that I'm hitting too hard, I think they'd be underestimating my oafishness.

-Charles

[Charles Lockhar]

If you are focusing on hitting as hard as possible, your kendo will not be good. So if you lose the idea that you are killing a baby seal you will not have to be selective.
In all my years of playing kendo I have never played anybody who hit as hard as possible that was any good.
On the other hand I have played really good people who didn't hit particularly hard but raised a nice welt.

I get ya, and agree. Thanks.

-Charles

[Paikea]

Kendo is like sex - if it feels violent, you're doing it wrong.

[nodachi]

Practice at a SKILL LEVEL that allows you AND your partner to learn. Practice with an appropriate amount of force to do techniques correctly and safely. Hurting your dojo mates and others only makes less people to practice kendo with.

[Ignatz]

If you are the higher level then you should go to you partner's level and then a little more.
It will benefit both of you.

[gordonpatti]

But how do you help benefit a training partner that is both much more advanced than you and much more experienced? I am third kyu and almost everyone else in my club is shodan or higher. How can I practice so that they learn from fighting me too? Thanks.

[JCM]

Actually, is not you who should worry about that, just concentrate on doing your best basic Kendo and fencing to a 100% of your ability. Those senior to you are responsible for the rest

[nodachi]

But how do you help benefit a training partner that is both much more advanced than you and much more experienced? I am third kyu and almost everyone else in my club is shodan or higher. How can I practice so that they learn from fighting me too? Thanks.

To add to JCM's thoughts, the person on the higher end can choose to focus on techniques that they are weaker at, they can practice controlling the flow of the jigeiko and work on manipulating the other person, and the act of learning how to do "teaching kendo" is tricky to learn all on its own. When they hit you is an opportunity for you to think about why you are "losing". Just pounding someone into the ground teaches nothing. Attacking at good teaching opportunities can really help the lower person to improve because their weak points are being exploited. So there is a lot for the more advanced person to work on, but they should be responsible for choosing what they need work on because you have enough to think about.

[kurisu]

Kendo is like sex - if it feels violent, you're doing it wrong.

Unless of course, you are in to that kind of thing...

[Toshiro Mifune]

"Taking it easy" doesn't have to mean being lazy or losing your strong spirit. You can keep pressure or strong seme then win first and then attack. Which will help you more then always just trying to beat women or newbies with your speed or power. You won't have speed or power forever so it is important to use your brain. But one should be aware of their own strength when facing women or children so they don't unintentionally hurt them. Safety First!

[Fonsz]

"Taking it easy" doesn't have to mean being lazy or losing your strong spirit. You can keep pressure or strong seme then win first and then attack. Which will help you more then always just trying to beat women or newbies with your speed or power. You won't have speed or power forever so it is important to use your brain. But one should be aware of their own strength when facing women or children so they don't unintentionally hurt them. Safety First!
Hear! hear! But what if the women and children are running circles around you?:eek:

[manjisan]

Hear! hear! But what if the women and children are running circles around you?:eek:

Do you mean that they are that much better that you would have to resort to using brute strength just to get an upper hand?(this is just question) Or are they just really quick that they literally move around in circles, because that would be kind of funny, but impractical in a fight.

[Fonsz]

Do you mean that they are that much better that you would have to resort to using brute strength just to get an upper hand?(this is just question) Or are they just really quick that they literally move around in circles, because that would be kind of funny, but impractical in a fight.
Not really BRUTE strength but properly adjusted brute force. And well timed, but then again if they're better then your toast. Or toasted as long as you don't behave like a tosser.:eek:

[gordonpatti]

If one is a lighter smaller fighter does it make sense for them to move in circular patterns around an opponent? In kendo we can only get points if we attack them from the front so does circling around someone make sense? And how about a bigger fighter using this strategy? Does anyone do this in keiko?

[Sparv]

If one is a lighter smaller fighter does it make sense for them to move in circular patterns around an opponent? In kendo we can only get points if we attack them from the front so does circling around someone make sense? And how about a bigger fighter using this strategy? Does anyone do this in keiko?

I read in another thread that against a nito user, moving laterally to the opposite side of your opponent's short shinai can be useful. I tryed it thursday against our local "nitoist" to gain a short break from the pressure. One step or two makes a big difference. (keep in mind that he is a third dan and that I'm a non-ranked beginner). I also read somewhere in the forums that the circular moves might be use to slowly change the distance, which is a key point when you're shorter than your opponent (I'm 30cm shorter than another kenshi of the dojo).

[enkorat]

If one is a lighter smaller fighter does it make sense for them to move in circular patterns around an opponent? In kendo we can only get points if we attack them from the front so does circling around someone make sense? And how about a bigger fighter using this strategy? Does anyone do this in keiko?

Three words:

Kata Number Two

That is all.

[JCM]

Three words:

Kata Number Two

That is all.

Just to add to enkorat's post (since you seem to be starting off), regardless of the direction your are moving you must always keep center, YOUR center. In Kata number two we move to the side in a circular motion, but we keep pointing the tip of the sword towards our opponent, his sword is not pointing towards us anymore (he has lost the center, and you have it).

Is hard to explain, I hope it makes sense

[enkorat]

Oh! This is appropriate for this thread...

My kata number two story:

I was at a tournament before I was testing for ikkyu. I walked into the ring during teams fights and thought...

"Oh! Its a girl! A small girl! This is going to be easy(ier)!"

We come out of sonkyo and I think to myself "strong center strong center!"

She looks at me, pretty much does the principles of kata #2 on me in the first 15 seconds of the match, and effortlessly hands me my ass on a platter, with finesse, grace, and style. I lose in less than a minute, having scored no points.

After the match, I had a burst of uncharacteristically chauvanistic (and very adolescent) voice whining within me...

"I can't believe... I just lost... to a girl!"

After discussing the match with a senior and asking why I lost, during practice for a month or so we worked on applying the principles of kata #2 in shiai, and I learned how to both see the strategy and start to learn how to counteract it.

A year and a half later I was volunteering for the national tournament, and I turned around and saw the girl that I lost to carrying the sign for her regional federation into the national tournament.

Needless to say I had one of those enlightenment moments where the pieces all fit together suddenly, and I went away a slightly humbler, more wise person.