Kumdo??

[JCM]

I came across this by accident: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYmWylvIkWs

Is this Kumdo?, seems like a lot of kata, and is a kata only exam too. The twirling and rolling around with the sword, (I am not sure if shinken or not, but you can still loos an eye) is a bit scary.

Does anyone know what this style is?

[NorthernKendoka]

It says "The Korean Haedong Gumdo Association" in the beginning so that would be my guess.

[JSchmidt]

I came across this by accident: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYmWylvIkWs

Is this Kumdo?, seems like a lot of kata, and is a kata only exam too. The twirling and rolling around with the sword, (I am not sure if shinken or not, but you can still loos an eye) is a bit scary.

Does anyone know what this style is?

It's Haedong Kumdo, probably the ultimate mcDojo sword art?. Had some legal battles in Korea, as they claimed it was the 'original kumdo' based on 'ancient Korean sword fighting".
Anyways. Reasonably established as a flashy style 'martial art'. If people enjoy it, I won't stop them.

[JCM]

Not critizising, just wondering. I always thought there was just one Kumdo (the one with no Sonkyo), so this wasn't a McDojo intended post. The only thing I would say about the video is that the guy does seem to be doing the Kata as bit of a regurgitation, the sense of zanshin or wathever you want to call it is missing, he could have used a bokken too (someone said this on the comments)

[bobdonny]

kumdo is to kendo

as

gumdo is to iaido

That is Gumbo
does that clear up?
(Haidong Gumdo is sometimes abbreviated to Gumbo)

as far as i know they have about 300members in ireland
http://www.haidong-gumdo.ie/

Ya, I know!!!!!

[hyuna]

does that clear up?

i don't think so, since i believe that the initial sound in 검도 can be romanized as either k or g, depending on the system used.

[JSchmidt]

kumdo is to kendo

as

gumdo is to iaido



Kumdo is gumdo. Gumdo is kumdo. I can't type hangul on my work machine, but it's the same hangul characters and hanja(kanji)
There's various pronunciation variations depending on where the consonant is. (I have happily forgotten most of them)

Jakob

[bobdonny]

ok, but this was explained to me by a korean student that was with our club :confused2

[JSchmidt]

I guess you could call Haedong Kumdo a form of iaido, but gumdo/kumdo both means the same as kendo: The way of the sword.

[hoonyistyle]

[quote=bobdonny;308119]

does that clear up?
[quote]

i.e. jikeiko = jigeiko

same thing~

[Tatu]

A bit flashy. I am not sure if that's the style or his interpretation of the style that he studies. Also, I mean no offense, and if you, the person in the video, are reading this I hope you passed and you continue to get stronger.
I have seen worst, hence Oar kata.

[rainmaker]

Kumdo = Gumdo
Jikeiko = jigeiko
Mr. Lee = Mr. Yi = Mr. Rhie = Mr. Rhee
Mr. Ro = Mr. Roh = Mr. Rho
Mr. Kim = Mr. Gim

hmmm what else ????

[quote=bobdonny;308119]

does that clear up?
[quote]

i.e. jikeiko = jigeiko

same thing~

[Oroshi]

I guess you could call Haedong Kumdo a form of iaido,
Please don't!

The Korean word for iaido is kuhapdo. Kuhapdo can have a 'Korean flavour' in a similar way to kumdo.

[JoonShik]

This is just Haedong Kumdo, as others have stated. I dont know anything about the history or anything about this art, but my dad would always say that "normal" kumdo/gumdo/kendo-ists will eat these guys up. I guess that's what was taught when to the students back in the early 70's in high school kumdo clubs.

[CH0ZEN]

It's funny but I went to a local Korean Chamber of Commerce meeting and they automatically assumed I practiced Kumdo when I told them I practiced Japanese Sword Fighting. I sensed some tension and wasn't really sure if that was a jab. To each his own.

[rainmaker]

Kuhapdo = iaido.

There are number of Iaido schools in Korea, including 無雙直傳英信流. 無雙直傳英信流 started in 1972 and in 1985, they set up Korean Kuhapdo Federation. Most Koreans already know that Kuhapdo is originated from Japan. Haedong Kumdo is not same as Iaido. I would say they are different Ryu....



Please don't!

The Korean word for iaido is kuhapdo. Kuhapdo can have a 'Korean flavour' in a similar way to kumdo.

[samurai80]

Its not iaido or kumdo. Its a made up "art" from the 70's. Its grown men pretend fighting with shinai. Its cutting things as long as it looks cool.

[ilporko]

'Grown men pretend fighting with shinais'?

I don't agree with this at all. The gyeuk gum, or step fight, is part of haidong gumdo (which I do). By far the largest part of the art are the kum bup, or forms (kata?). HDGD is about style, precision, control, balance, and not necessarily being first to hit the other guy.

Just a little off-topic stuff for those who think it's all dancing and twirling. Here's my warm-up for every one of my six lessons a week.

Stretching of all limbs, back, neck.
100 cheun myun pegi (centre head strike).
50 chwa-u pegi (same as left and right kote)
50 sam-dan pegi (head strike followed by left and right kote).
20 gwang-ja pegi (sam-dan pegi with heuri/ waist strike and two diagonal cuts to the shoulders).
1,000 cheun myun pegi.
skipping. 200 jumps in two minutes.
100 push-ups
50 push-ups on the tips of the fingers.
20 one-handed push-ups.
100 sit ups.

The rest of the lesson involves forms, technical work on stance and grip, unarmed combat especially with high kicks, and whee chota which is sparring with cutting (whee) or stabbing (chota) motions. In sparring the whole body is a target and we spar using bokken with no bogu apart from the ho-myeon or face mask.

You might rubbish the technique, but even so I've done the Korean style of kendo and saw a fair few people with sloppy technique. But I think as a physical exercise and something that requires discipline and committment, this is fine. Besides, most of us enjoy it.

[samurai80]

Its not iaido or kumdo. Its a made up "art" from the 70's. Its grown men pretend fighting with shinai. Its cutting things as long as it looks cool.

So you stretch before you pretend to fight.

[tango]

+rep!!!!!!!!!!!!

[i must spread some rep, etc.]

[ilporko]

So you stretch before you pretend to fight.

Gumdo is physically demanding, and is more than just stretching.

The jukdo/shinai/bamboo sword is used for gyeuk gum, or step fighting. The first thing my master said to me about gyeuk gum is that unlike kendo the whole body is a target. If gumdo is 'pretend' and kendo is 'real', why can't you hit someone in the chest or leg if the opportunity arises?

The master also mentioned that the gyeuk gum (your pretend fighting) is abstract and not real fighting. It's about skill and acrobatics; no-one thinks it's real. OK, here's a diversion (and a long post, sorry).

The first gyeuk gum is a two-person display, and for the attacker it goes knock the defender's sword to one side, then hit left neck, right neck, left knee, right neck, left neck, right knee, and left neck with a jump and kihap/kiai.

The second gyeuk gum is hit the sword to one side, head strike, right knee, left neck, right knee, and left neck with a jump and kihap.

Take your pretend fight and do gyeuk gum number one and two as the attacker, and then number two and one as the defender, in one continuous move. Oh, if you make a mistake, you might get a jukdo/shinai on the head.

There are 12 gyeuk gums. Also, there are 12 ssang-su kum bups, or two handed sword forms. Add in eight yedo kumbup, and 12 simsang kum bups. That's with the wooden sword. Now learn to fight with two swords, a six-foot-long two-handed sword, num chuks (spelling), unarmed combat, wheechota or cut-and-jab sparring, hapkido's thumbling and falling, unarmed combat at distance (mainly kicking and punching), and unarmed close-range combat in which the master grabs you by the neck, arm, or wherever, and you have to kick, head butt, punch, and poke your way free.

[ilporko]

Continued in case I lose this stuff (damn computers).

Let's look at one of those 12 ssang-su kumbups, the most basic set of forms using the wooden mokgum, which I think you kendo people call a bokken.

In the second ssang-su kum bup the sword is drawn from left to right, while the right foot is slid to 60 degree from the starting line, with the foot at 15 degrees to the left, while the left foot rests at 45 degrees to the starting line, with the left leg bent, and the right knee forward so that the skirt of the dobok/hakama hangs straight down. Your back is straight, eyes forward, left hand holding the scabbard (not that you would use one for a mokgum), and the right arm and sword are straight and horizontal, with the wrist up. The baldo, or drawing strike should be at 90 percent power when at the left of your body, and 45 percent power at the right.

From u-mako strike into u-sodosae, in whch the right foot slides three feet forward at 90 degrees to the starting line, with the right knee bent at 90 degrees. The left leg is slid behind the right one, so that the body drops at 45 degrres, like a plane landing. The left knee must be one-fist-size from the right leg, and one-fist size from the ground. The sword cuts at 30 degrees from the ehad, over the right shoulder, and across the opponent's eyes, before being brought to one-fist-size from tghe left hip, with the blade turned away from the user, and tilted at about 45 degrees.

There are 11 sodosaes, all with u or chwa mako, six turns, one jump, one chota, and one left-right uppercut in the second ssang-su kumbup, and all are as detailed as I described.

Can you remember all that? This is normal stuff, learned in the first month. Gumdo is about skill and art, not about 'fighting'. Neither is kendo about fighting either. If you want a fight to be 'real' take off your bogu, and fight with a katana.

[tango]

well... this is getting interesting real quickly....

should be good entertainment for the next day or so....

[mononokifool]

Continued in case I lose this stuff (damn computers).

Let's look at one of those 12 ssang-su kumbups, the most basic set of forms using the wooden mokgum, which I think you kendo people call a bokken.

In the second ssang-su kum bup the sword is drawn from left to right, while the right foot is slid to 60 degree from the starting line, with the foot at 15 degrees to the left, while the left foot rests at 45 degrees to the starting line, with the left leg bent, and the right knee forward so that the skirt of the dobok/hakama hangs straight down. Your back is straight, eyes forward, left hand holding the scabbard (not that you would use one for a mokgum), and the right arm and sword are straight and horizontal, with the wrist up. The baldo, or drawing strike should be at 90 percent power when at the left of your body, and 45 percent power at the right.

From u-mako strike into u-sodosae, in whch the right foot slides three feet forward at 90 degrees to the starting line, with the right knee bent at 90 degrees. The left leg is slid behind the right one, so that the body drops at 45 degrres, like a plane landing. The left knee must be one-fist-size from the right leg, and one-fist size from the ground. The sword cuts at 30 degrees from the ehad, over the right shoulder, and across the opponent's eyes, before being brought to one-fist-size from tghe left hip, with the blade turned away from the user, and tilted at about 45 degrees.

There are 11 sodosaes, all with u or chwa mako, six turns, one jump, one chota, and one left-right uppercut in the second ssang-su kumbup, and all are as detailed as I described.

Can you remember all that? This is normal stuff, learned in the first month. Gumdo is about skill and art, not about 'fighting'. Neither is kendo about fighting either. If you want a fight to be 'real' take off your bogu, and fight with a katana.
well i dont know what you call a real fight. but when someone is hitting me and i am trying my hardest to hit them back as well, or even stab them in the throat i call that a real fight. apparently kendo is just thought of differently, to most practitioners it still has that budo aspect, and yes most of us agree it is becoming increasingly more and more like a sport but its still budo to us. also can you post some videos of those whatever you call them, sounds like the opposite of something like iai were its all about not waisting energy, including jumping around.

[Landorph]

pplz.. That is Heidong Kumdo (or HeiDong Kendo) if u want to translate it.

Normal Kumdo in Korea is Kendo , (introduced by the Japanese during their occupation of Korea).
So's the likes of (Hapkido and aikido for that sense,)

Heidong Kumdo was created in the 70s, it's like a mixed martial arts with combination of Kendo and Iaido and Kenjitsu. (However the founders claim its entirely Korean).

Simply, The video u see is not normal Korean Kumdo. Korean Kumdo would be exactly the same as the one you practice .... just they count and Kiai in Korean terms.

Note: Kiai - (Men = Mori, Kote = Sumok, Do = Hori, & No Sonkyo) That is all.
However interestingly, Kendo in China and Taiwan Kiais in Chinese, based on original Kanji Pronounciations.
(Men = Mian, Kote = xiaosou, Do = Tuoen) etc etc.

So I now pose a question to you all. kendo is a martial art that you surpose to Kiai the target area you cut in your language.

The Japanese calls in Japanese, Koreans calls in Korean, Chinese Calls in Chinese, so why does all the Westerners Kiai in foreign language, jap/korean, but not their own? Why dont you people count numbers in english, call the cuts in english as well?

^_^ It'll be funny: (Head!, Small Forearm!, Waist!)

[samurai80]

Blah blah blah...some stuff about jumping around in circles. Blah blah blah, some dancing with a shinai, and a partner...

Can you remember all that? This is normal stuff, learned in the first month. Gumdo is about skill and art, not about 'fighting'. Neither is kendo about fighting either. If you want a fight to be 'real' take off your bogu, and fight with a katana.

So in the first month, you do like, a 50 "cut" coreographed thingy. In the first month of kendo, we learn a little bit of the rei involved, and if you're lucky, you can almost get your feet in the correct position, and maybe do something that looks close to a large men strike. You guys must be extremely gifted to jump around in circles AND know all those cuts in one month. Smell that? It smells like...like...

[samurai80]

In sparring the whole body is a target and we spar using bokken with no bogu apart from the ho-myeon or face mask.

You might rubbish the technique, but even so I've done the Korean style of kendo and saw a fair few people with sloppy technique. But I think as a physical exercise and something that requires discipline and committment, this is fine. Besides, most of us enjoy it.

Classic stuff there...classic.

[ilporko]

Classic stuff there...classic.

I meant that only the sodosae (sliding crouch) is learned in the first month. The rest of the stuff takes a lot longer, onbiously. I didn't mean to give the impression that someone can do all that in one month. I also meant that there is more to gumdo than using a shinai, and a lot of it involves a hell of a lot more skill than you seem to think there is in gumdo. Just because it's not kendo does not mean it's not useful, martial, or fighting.

Some people describe gumdo as 'dancing with a shinai/jukdo'. I've never understood that. I've done both kendo (Korean style) and gumdo, and there are a lot of common things, such as wrist, head, and waist strikes, and a lot of the stances. Gumdo was designed/made/thought up/discovered/whatever by guys who were kendo students.

For the poster who mentioend the videos of the ssang-sgu kum bups, I'll post some links another time, but gumdo IS a bit inefficient. That said, it's supposed to be mass-battle technique, the cuts are going to be bigger, and there will be more moving around.

And yes, we do spar as well, and beat each other a bit,including in the throat. We just don't use shinais or wear kendo-style bogu while sparring.

[mononokifool]

Some people describe gumdo as 'dancing with a shinai/jukdo'. I've never understood that. I've done both kendo (Korean style) and gumdo, and there are a lot of common things, such as wrist, head, and waist strikes, and a lot of the stances. Gumdo was designed/made/thought up/discovered/whatever by guys who were kendo students.
.
So is it based on kendo movement? kendo movement is only for kendo. watch some iaijustu/kenjutsu and you will see that they really arnt comparable

[absenteekendoka]

kumdo is to kendo

as

gumdo is to iaido

That is Gumbo
does that clear up?
(Haidong Gumdo is sometimes abbreviated to Gumbo)

as far as i know they have about 300members in ireland
http://www.haidong-gumdo.ie/

Ya, I know!!!!!


Why cant we have some Cajun Gumbo instead? Its the art of throwing bowls of spicy soup into your opponents eyes. :)

[ilporko]

So is it based on kendo movement? kendo movement is only for kendo. watch some iaijustu/kenjutsu and you will see that they really arnt comparable

I don't know about those other arts, so I'll have to take your word on this. I think gumdo is what kendo might be like if the whole body was a legitimate target, fights involved four to ten people, and the kendo was made a bit flashier and given a little bit of show-off-iness. Just a little, but look at the sword drawing/unsheathing in gumdo, and see if you think they would have a military benefit.

[Kenzan]

That is Gumbo


I prefer the shrimp flavored variety.

[ilporko]

. also can you post some videos of those whatever you call them, sounds like the opposite of something like iai were its all about not waisting energy, including jumping around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3ai-IYKajw&feature=related

This is more or less a slow demo of the first two sword forms. The cuts are a bit wide, but this video is essentially what we do in this video.

Oh, before people point out the jump in the second form, I think that was a little strange. I've been told that this is an older version of the form. The new jump is much more practical.

I'm working on a gumdo video (and I'm not pretending I'm an expert) so I'll put that up soon.

[bobdonny]

That is Gumbo?

[spartan voice] THIS IS GUMBO!!! [/spartan voice]

[ZEROtoNINE]

Kumdo = Kendo (with the exception - at some dojangs - of sonkyo)
Kuhapdo = Iaido (slightly different from MJER)
Hae Dong Kumdo = Made up Korean sword art (non-traditional, but there is much skill involved) This is not taught at regular Kumdo dojangs.

[mononokifool]

I don't know about those other arts, so I'll have to take your word on this. I think gumdo is what kendo might be like if the whole body was a legitimate target, fights involved four to ten people, and the kendo was made a bit flashier and given a little bit of show-off-iness. Just a little, but look at the sword drawing/unsheathing in gumdo, and see if you think they would have a military benefit.
the thing about Japanese swordsmanship is that its not hack and slash. You really woulnt be able to cut someone's leg of by just hitting it. So of course in kendo not all of the body is a target. also you have to consider bones. the reason we cut at the small forearm is because thats where the bones in the arm run parallel making it easier to cut through, and we cut at the stomach where we do because it is under the ribcage. Even in large combat you would not want your sword to be caught in the ribs.

Also about that video. It was a lot less flashy than i had imagined it would be so i stand corrected. But what exactly is it? Is it just cutting drills? It doesnt look like any kind of kata.

[ilporko]

the thing about Japanese swordsmanship is that its not hack and slash. You really woulnt be able to cut someone's leg of by just hitting it. So of course in kendo not all of the body is a target. also you have to consider bones. the reason we cut at the small forearm is because thats where the bones in the arm run parallel making it easier to cut through, and we cut at the stomach where we do because it is under the ribcage. Even in large combat you would not want your sword to be caught in the ribs.

Also about that video. It was a lot less flashy than i had imagined it would be so i stand corrected. But what exactly is it? Is it just cutting drills? It doesnt look like any kind of kata.

Good points. I should say that I enjoyed kendo when I did it, and mainl reason to switch to gumdo (well, only reason) for medical reasons that probably don't apply now. I would have no trouble going back to kendo if gumdo were not available when I leave this job.)

The 'whole body as a target' thing? Well, I can stab to the stomach in our sparring (with a padded weapon of course). I made the original point in the sense that 'real' is two guys in Japan in 1600 fighting with katanas, which is not possible nowadays. Some people I've talked to seem to think that kendo IS samurai-styled fighting exactly like it was back then.

As I understand the term kata it is a demonstration of strikes against 'imaginary' opponents, if I can use that term. We call these things forms, and I don't know if that means quite the same thing as kata does to you. Basically, the forms are practice runs for the movements needed in the cutting demonstrations. My master told me the other day that haidong gumdo is cutting, and nothing else, apart from choreographed fights, and sparring.

[Wesley Myers]

As I understand the term kata it is a demonstration of strikes against 'imaginary' opponents

Kendo kata are done with two people. One being the 'teacher' side and the other being the 'student' side.

Kendo waza (techniques) are also done with two people - no imaginary opponents.

Both practitioners have a very distinct and very intensive role to benefit the students (not just one person standing as an immobile target, shall we say).

[ilporko]

I think I should show the other side of haidong gumdo, which is very different to the first video I linked to.

The video with the student working on his own is a kum bup, or sword form. It's a cutting drill that is supposed to also show how one person couldd fight against multiple opponents.

Now look at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSoRE41uGDQ

The commentator calls the first part (the woman on her own) a kata, but that might be a mistake-especially if kata involve two people. There's some cutting, but near the end the two men fight with wooden swords.

That display (fighting) is one of the gyeuk gum, or step-fighting forms, which is probably the same as a kata in kendo. While I used to like it, and still think there is a lot of skill involved, I doubt the technique would really be useful in a fight. (Mind you, some people rubbish all of gumdo just because these gyeuk gum use wide cuts and tumbling.

And, before anyone here tries to be smart, the form of gumdo I do now (last two weeks) is beo-un wheechota haidong gumdo, in which we don't do the forms you see near the end of this video. Beo-un is all about the forms in the first video (one student on his/her own), cutting (I'll put a video on here tomorrow some time after I make it) and sparring. The sparring is a combination of muay thai and very tight stabbing and cutting (no circular motions at all). We spar in bogu, because of the kicking.

I'm having difficult getting a video of beo-un wheechota, because almsot no-one does it. I read somewhere that some crazy number, about two percent, of gumdo people do beo-un wheechota.

[mononokifool]

I think I should show the other side of haidong gumdo, which is very different to the first video I linked to.

The video with the student working on his own is a kum bup, or sword form. It's a cutting drill that is supposed to also show how one person couldd fight against multiple opponents.

Now look at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSoRE41uGDQ

The commentator calls the first part (the woman on her own) a kata, but that might be a mistake-especially if kata involve two people. There's some cutting, but near the end the two men fight with wooden swords.

That display (fighting) is one of the gyeuk gum, or step-fighting forms, which is probably the same as a kata in kendo. While I used to like it, and still think there is a lot of skill involved, I doubt the technique would really be useful in a fight. (Mind you, some people rubbish all of gumdo just because these gyeuk gum use wide cuts and tumbling.

And, before anyone here tries to be smart, the form of gumdo I do now (last two weeks) is beo-un wheechota haidong gumdo, in which we don't do the forms you see near the end of this video. Beo-un is all about the forms in the first video (one student on his/her own), cutting (I'll put a video on here tomorrow some time after I make it) and sparring. The sparring is a combination of muay thai and very tight stabbing and cutting (no circular motions at all). We spar in bogu, because of the kicking.

I'm having difficult getting a video of beo-un wheechota, because almsot no-one does it. I read somewhere that some crazy number, about two percent, of gumdo people do beo-un wheechota.


that was.....interesting.

[Kendoka_Han]

Stretching of all limbs, back, neck.
100 cheun myun pegi (centre head strike).
50 chwa-u pegi (same as left and right kote)
50 sam-dan pegi (head strike followed by left and right kote).
20 gwang-ja pegi (sam-dan pegi with heuri/ waist strike and two diagonal cuts to the shoulders).
1,000 cheun myun pegi.

OK, so a total of 1220 strikes or "Sword Cuts" to the opponents body. And, well...compare all of the above in same amount towards haya-suburi, and the actual scientifically genius HARDER forms given in Kendo kirikaeshi / Shikake Waza / Oji Waza!?

skipping. 200 jumps in two minutes.
100 push-ups
50 push-ups on the tips of the fingers.
20 one-handed push-ups.
100 sit ups.

So after all of the above sword cuts (do you do it with a suburito or regular light shinai?), you perform these effortlessly! Especially the 20 one-hand push ups :).........:rolleyes:

I am sure your resting heart beat is <50 bps. At best, I can do about half that (and about 2 one-hand push ups), because I am starting to become quite fit through kendo.

[ilporko]

OK,

So after all of the above sword cuts (do you do it with a suburito or regular light shinai?), you perform these effortlessly! Especially the 20 one-hand push ups :).........:rolleyes:

I am sure your resting heart beat is <50 bps. At best, I can do about half that (and about 2 one-hand push ups), because I am starting to become quite fit through kendo.

Don't be a smart-arse. In Korea kumdo, kendo, haidong gumdo, whatever are all seen as physically demanding. I've been tols bd kendoka that the Korean approach to kumdo/kendo produces high levels of fitness.

Now come on, are those sword cuts really so difficult? I'll grant you that the rest of the stuff is excrutiatingly painful, and also that I sweat constantly during every class. But experienced gumdoin (not me) are very, very fit.

[ne0r]

The point in kendo is that you don't do cuts just for the sake of fitness, but to perfect your technique. I can't imagine how 1,220 cuts would help your technique, in my opinion it would rather make your technique worse, but what do I know?

"Gumdo was designed/made/thought up/discovered/whatever by guys who were kendo students."
I am sorry, but I can't spot any connection to kendo.

"And yes, we do spar as well, and beat each other a bit,including in the throat. We just don't use shinais or wear kendo-style bogu while sparring."
You said that you spar with bokuto and without bogu. Are you insane?

"I think gumdo is what kendo might be like if the whole body was a legitimate target, fights involved four to ten people, and the kendo was made a bit flashier and given a little bit of show-off-iness."
1.) "a little bit of show-off-iness" : In kendo the humble mind is, I would dare to say, one core value. This is why I can't see any connection to kendo, because kendo's core values seem to have little meaning in haidong gumdo. Besides I don't like people that show off.

"The 'whole body as a target' thing? Well, I can stab to the stomach in our sparring (with a padded weapon of course)."
There is even a reason for this (besides practical aspects = bogu): Kendo's (and HDGD's) point isn't killing people, as you pointed out earlier. So there is no need of the whole body as a target. The cuts are reduced to a minimum because this way it is easier (in my humble opinion as I am quite unexperianced) to understand some core concepts of fighting.

[ZEROtoNINE]

No wonder some of you Kendo guys are biased against us Kumdo guys.

[ilporko]

Thanks for the replies, peeps (though sneeriness and BS can be put to one side).

"The point in kendo is that you don't do cuts just for the sake of fitness, but to perfect your technique".

It's purely a physical exercise. Technique is practised in different ways. One of the main parts of gumdo is the kum bup, which are very long (imho) drills that can involve many cuts. That's tiring, so we do 'body training' just for the physical strength needed for the kum bup.

"I am sorry, but I can't spot any connection to kendo."

Which video did you watch? In gumdo we slide our right foot, keep our feet in line, lift our left heel, and strike often to head, wrist, and waist. I did a little kendo, and think that sounds about the same-especially when considering that gumdo uses broader cust than kendo or iaido does.

"You said that you spar with bokuto and without bogu. Are you insane?"

There are two types of sparring in gumdo, and one of them could probably be called a 'kata' by you kendo folks. I think there was some confusion and a mix up because I didn't (and really still don't) understand kendo terms. When we have a mokgum (wooden sword) both people know what's coming next. When we have the freedom to do what we want, we use padded weapons. In fact, I think most kendo people would laugh at a gumdo sparring match. We call that type of match 'sports gumdo'.

"This is why I can't see any connection to kendo, because kendo's core values seem to have little meaning in haidong gumdo. Besides I don't like people that show off."

I think gumdo is more like playing to the gallery. Some of my friends came to a gyeup test (grading test in kendo?) and told me after wards that the first bit was Ok, but they didn't know anything about the art, so they couldn't tell if someone was doing well or not. At the end, the subumnin and a student gave a gyeuk gum (two players, shinai, no bogu, choreographed (spelling?)) demonstration, and my friends thought that was cool.

In fairness, it is impressive to non-MA people, because of the jumping. the twirling, the kihap/kiai, the swords, and music. I always found it an annoyance, because nothing there would really help me in my kumbup (cutting drills) and pegi bup (paper, bamboo, wood cutting).

Funny thing is, most non-gumdo people rubbish gumdo because of the gyeuk gum (demonstrations), but most gumdoin regard them as an extra, and addition, to the real business, and a chance to, in a way, entertain people like actors. Gumdoin curse and bitch during kumbup (there is nothing worse than doing 11 cuts properly, and then fucking up the last one), but in gyeuk gum we laugh and smile. It's not the main order of business, but we get judged on the basis of that's why we do the art.

"So there is no need of the whole body as a target. The cuts are reduced to a minimum because this way it is easier (in my humble opinion as I am quite unexperianced) to understand some core concepts of fighting."

I understand that. My original reply was in the context of gumdo not being 'real', according to another poster. I made the remark that in a 'real' fight, with no MA restrictions, and no concepts, and just fight for your life, if I have the opportunity to hit you o, say, the elbow, and affect your performance, so i can gain an advantage, I'll hit you on the elbow. I then said that kendo isn't 'real', because there are limitations which are intended to make it an art. It's still great, by the way.

That poster was referring to the gyeuk gum (demonstration) rather than sparring. Even we gumdoin call gyeuk gum 'abstract and unreal', as my subumnin said.

[ilporko]

Oh hell was that a long post.

[ne0r]

Nah, I said that I can't see a connection to kendo not because of the technique, but because I think that many of kendo's core values have little meaning in HDGD (humility, for example).

But unfortunately my opinion is biased and in the end I don't know enough about HDGD. But judging the demonstration on Euro Sport I wouldn't like HDGD.
The only thing that was said to us before a demonstration was "Make big cuts so the spectators can see something. And if you don't manage to make a good point perhaps let your aite hit you so that the spectators can see a clean hit." (something like that). If I get you right, in HDGD you have special choreographies for demonstration which don't really represent HDGD as a whole?

[ilporko]

"]Nah, I said that I can't see a connection to kendo not because of the technique, but because I think that many of kendo's core values have little meaning in HDGD (humility, for example)."

Having done both arts for about the same time, I'd agree with you on this. It saddens me a bit, and does take away from the art, that when I left my Korean kendo dojang and went to a gumdo one, I walked in, stopped dead, saluted the flag, bowed to the sabumnin, and said (roughly translated into English) 'The highest greetings to you all'. Everyone else just said 'Hi'.

The sabumnin told me that 'I' could do this if I wanted, but most people don't. Now, at every lesson, I salute the flag, bow to people, kneel and bow at the end of the lesson, and use polite terms when talking. Thankfully, in the new dojang, ritual formality is observed with savage precision. I feel like I've come home, so I'll give you that point about kendo.

"But unfortunately my opinion is biased and in the end I don't know enough about HDGD. But judging the demonstration on Euro Sport I wouldn't like HDGD."

Each to his or her own.

"The only thing that was said to us before a demonstration was "Make big cuts so the spectators can see something. And if you don't manage to make a good point perhaps let your aite hit you so that the spectators can see a clean hit." (something like that). If I get you right, in HDGD you have special choreographies for demonstration which don't really represent HDGD as a whole?"

I don't like the sound of that demonstration, but could see it happening. Mcdojo? Basically, there is the main cutting/drilling/forms aspect, and then the second part, with a different weapon (shinai) which is only used for that part. That's the demonstration stuff. I hope that they don't represent gumdo as a whole, because I'm on a hate-on for gumdo right now.

(OK, I'll explain why. I got to 4th gyup in five months in my first dojang, and was supposed to take 12 months to get to il dan (first dan). Then I went to this dojang, and the sabumnin/sensei told me I was the highest-ranked student in the class, so I should lead the warm-up. I declined his offer, and was ashamed of doing so, because this 6th gyup guy replaced me. There are two dans in the school, and one chap has been there two years to get to 6th gyup. I was so embarrased when this 10-year-old kid asked why I am 4th gyup and can't do a forward somersault and cut, when it is required for 6th gyup. He's 6th gyup. I asked the subumnin to give me 10th gyup again, because I realise I know fuck all about this art (and I'm drunk now!!). mcdojo for me?? I'm beginning to think so.

[ilporko]

If I can indulge my rant a bit further, let me say this. The worst yet, in this two-week eye-opening for me, was when the sabumnin raged at me today, saying 'No balance, no speed, no power. You are no good. Children are better than you'. So, we agreed that I do only physical training and ki-bon (the 20-odd most basic moves) until I'm able to start off again at 10th gyup, which the sabumnin says will be next year sometime.

[ne0r]

Hm, yeah, that's a bit strange.

Two-week eye-opening? What do you mean?

[ilporko]

I changed dojangs, and the new one is very different to the old one. In the old one, I was told I was doing well, and I was 4th gyup. In the new one, I asked the subumnin/sensei to give me 10th gyup, because I realised I'm nowhere near ready for this MA.

[Mosquite]

There was one thing that I spotted in your post ilporko: You do choreographed demonstrations with shinais and without bogu!? I have never seen choreographed demonstration with shinai (only bokken, iaito and katanas). I could understand that if you had bogus so you you could really hit the demonstarion partner but no...

While being a dancer I still don't accept Gumdo being an artistic thing even though all the music and choreographed shows. I think it is more like entertaiment not an art. I see it much like what happened to ethnic dances some time ago: Show dancers (I don't dislike them or anything like that) made show dance choreographs and putted ethnic music to them and then told they are ethnic dance and fulled the ethnic dance world with them...

[ilporko]

There was one thing that I spotted in your post ilporko: You do choreographed demonstrations with shinais and without bogu!? I could understand that if you had bogus so you you could really hit the demonstarion partner but no...

While being a dancer I still don't accept Gumdo being an artistic thing even though all the music and choreographed shows. I think it is more like entertaiment not an art. ...

Look at the second video I posted. Near the end two men seem to 'fight' with no bogu and while holding mukgum, which you call bokken. We can do that same type of thing with jukdo/shinai as well. I'd say I've seen about as many demonstration with jukdo as with mukgum.

We don't really hit the opponent because he/she isn't wearing hogo/bogu. Though, if you go to the official site of the world haidong gumdo federation (the mani body) you'll see that it's all up to the dojangs. Some dojangs do use hogu and jukdo, and have contact in certain areas, probably like in kendo. Most dojangs don't do that, and prefer choreographed demonstrations/entertainment/art/whatever you call them.

[ilporko]

No wonder some of you Kendo guys are biased against us Kumdo guys.

If you're doing kumdo, as in dae han kumdo, then it's Korean kendo. I do haidong gumdo/haedong kumdo, which is very different. I don't know why kendoka would be biased against you kumdoin. maybe it's because you post snide remarks on forums without explaining anything?

[mononokifool]

Honestly i think much of the bias stems from the animosity felt towards korea from japan. but as for haidong i can say i dont like it for its impracticality and because it almost tries to show off which is very opposite from JSA. Also i dont like it when exhibitions are made from what looks like JSA and a lot of people will presume that it is.

[ilporko]

Honestly Also i dont like it when exhibitions are made from what looks like JSA and a lot of people will presume that it is.

I agree with the Korea-Japan comment, and think some Koreans are just as to blame as the japanese are. That's why we have all this revisionist history stuff. The exhibitions/demonstrations are a part I like for the acrobatic/physical fitness side, and for a bit of fun, but yes, I agree with any kendoka who gets pissed off when gumdoin say gumdo is an ancient martial art of the sword... It's not. My gumdo friends/teachers and I don't pretend that it is, but some people do.

Are there kendo demonstrations of whatever you call a competitive match?

[Anonymous]

Honestly i think much of the bias stems from the animosity felt towards korea from japan. but as for haidong i can say i dont like it for its impracticality and because it almost tries to show off which is very opposite from JSA. Also i dont like it when exhibitions are made from what looks like JSA and a lot of people will presume that it is.


Theres that, and some of the retarded claims that kumdo is somehow older than kendo etc. etc.

[Anonymous]

Are there kendo demonstrations of whatever you call a competitive match?

There are plenty of examples of competitive matches on youtube...just don't pay too much attention to the mcdojo ones that show up in there too :p


edit: sorry for double post

[yoda-waza]

Doesn't the showmanship in these videos seem to be an unnecessary distraction added to the action only to appeal to a general audience whose attention span requires some thrilling visual spectacle complete with theatrical lighting and a percussive musical beat? I don't doubt the commitment, skill, strength and training behind these cutting demonstrations, but what really is its message beyond pure entertainment? As a "martial art" it seems so lost in translation.

[ilporko]

Lost in translation?

Yes. It is all that you describe. Just speaking from my point of view, I didn't like the gyeuk gum (these demonstrations), because they are always set to music, and are not martial art in any way. I'm utterly delighted that the dojang I'm at does not seem to use them (there's a language problem. When I ask the sabumnin if he trains us in them, he thinks I'm asking can I practise them in the 'free practice' time where we can do what we want).

Not that they are bad, but it's playing to the gallery, not quietly going about your work. I know that most non-MA people would like these gyeuk gum, but wouldn't like to watch me practising kum-ge dong-rim pal-song-sae, which is brutally difficult technique, but also amounts to one guy standing on one foot for ten minutes while holding a sword. But I prefer the pal-song sae to the demonstrations.

[mononokifool]

Are there kendo demonstrations of whatever you call a competitive match?
there are shiai's but they dont have demonstrations. iaido have demonstrations but they look like this http://youtube.com/watch?v=jJMR1fiUD4Y&feature=related
boring to most but we dont do this to please the crowds. no fancy dances or jumps, also no wasted movements.

[Kendoka_Han]

Don't be a smart-arse.

I am not being a smart-ass. I am talking from my own experience when I transformed from backyard "sword cuts" to proper kendo waza. I could easily do sword twirls, 2000 times compared to a PROPERLY based hard 100 haya-suburi cuts in conjunction with the rest of the body's movement.

All in all, a good 1 hours kendo warm up practice is equivalent to 3+ hours of backyard sword twirls. That is how tough kendo really is, or shall I say, PROPER SWORD TECHNIQUES are MUCH harder to perform physically.

I can create a video on 2 different days if you want. Video 1 will consist of me doing my old backyard gibberish 1500 sword cuts (also similar to your cuts), with a simple shinai or suburito. Video 2 on the next day will consist of me doing proper kendo suburi with a suburito, etc, and after about 250 cuts, I will perform pretty badly, and when I reach the 500th cut, I might as well not do any because any more will be useless.

Now come on, are those sword cuts really so difficult? I'll grant you that the rest of the stuff is excrutiatingly painful, and also that I sweat constantly during every class. But experienced gumdoin (not me) are very, very fit.

Give me a video of you doing 20 one hand push ups.....you must be extremely fit in the arm area :) Or extremely light body weight.

[bullet08]

here is a great way of making a pot gumbo (feeds 1 person for at least a week)... well.. i'm too drunk to go into detail.. but i'm planning to make a pot tomorrow.. if i remember.

which gumdo (kumdo) are you talking about? KKA Kumdo? or some other stuff? if it's KKA Kumdo, it's same as what most people here do. if it's that other stuff.. well, it's different. and depends on who you talk to, the reason why someone does kendo/kumdo will also change. but the basic idea is self cultivation.

talking about which.. i need get off my fat arse and start going back to dojo. not doing kendo for last 4-5 months made me really really lazy about going to dojo.

damn.. freaking english know how to make ale.. this ole peculiar kicks arse..

pete

i must be near drunk.. can type, but can't keep up which page i was reading.. anyway, it's not an reply to above post..

[ilporko]

:laugh:
All in all, a good 1 hours kendo warm up practice is equivalent to 3+ hours of backyard sword twirls. That is how tough kendo really is, or shall I say, PROPER SWORD TECHNIQUES are MUCH harder to perform physically.

Give me a video of you doing 20 one hand push ups.....you must be extremely fit in the arm area :) Or extremely light body weight.

1) We don't twirl the sword. We move it back, cut, back, and cut. I've done kendo, and there are a lot of similiar points between the cuts. if you are looking at those gumdo demonstrations with two guys twirling swords, you could read how I've said several times that I don't really like that.

2) A video? No.

[Anonymous]

here is a great way of making a pot gumbo (feeds 1 person for at least a week)... well.. i'm too drunk to go into detail.. but i'm planning to make a pot tomorrow.. if i remember.

which gumdo (kumdo) are you talking about? KKA Kumdo? or some other stuff? if it's KKA Kumdo, it's same as what most people here do. if it's that other stuff.. well, it's different. and depends on who you talk to, the reason why someone does kendo/kumdo will also change. but the basic idea is self cultivation.

talking about which.. i need get off my fat arse and start going back to dojo. not doing kendo for last 4-5 months made me really really lazy about going to dojo.

damn.. freaking english know how to make ale.. this ole peculiar kicks arse..

pete

i must be near drunk.. can type, but can't keep up which page i was reading.. anyway, it's not an reply to above post..



I may be drunk, but I'm pretty sure you haven't been doing kendo long enough to give any decent opinion on the subject.


Also, has anyone else ever attempted to do drunken keiko?

[Bokushingu]

Well...all I can say is that HDGK is not for me, but I not going to question it. I think if you are happy, ilporko then you should continue to train in it with 100% dedication. I also don't feel you have to explain your art, not saying that people have no right to question you, but you should continue feeling good aboout your art. I have come under the same scrutiny from my old boxing buddies who believed i threw away a promising career to play jedi, but i don't say anything to them except it's my choice & I'm happy. The same goes when a few European style fencer try to put me down for doing kendo...I just keep walking.

Just becareful when you say that certain things of your art are simular to or better than another art, because then you are compelled to defend statements. ^_^

[Anonymous]

I may be drunk, but I'm pretty sure you haven't been doing kendo long enough to give any decent opinion on the subject.


Also, has anyone else ever attempted to do drunken keiko?

shit wrong person quoted, that was meant for han.

I'll stop my internet for tonight now.

[Kendoka_Han]

:laugh:

:laugh:.....:rolleyes:

1) We don't twirl the sword.

So those are the wrong movies you linked us?

We move it back, cut, back, and cut.

Even though I am not an expert on the dynamics of proper sword cutting, I do have a basic knowledge on how its done....so therefore, how is this "back-and-forward" motion presented? How is the shinai held / moved when cutting forward?

I've done kendo

So have I! Finally :D......and I hope to continue it forever until death. Though I havent been to the dojo in about 2 months now....:(.....I will get back into it though...

and there are a lot of similiar points between the cuts.

I have seen the way they hold the swords, and its not correct from my understanding. Any kendoka or kenjutsu practitioner here can clarify.

if you are looking at those gumdo demonstrations with two guys twirling swords, you could read how I've said several times that I don't really like that.

"Dont really like that" inclines that you do, DO that. You twirl your sword when you perform in your practices. So therefore, why claim "we dont twirl swords"?

2) A video? No.

:laugh:......ok ok, thats fine by me. I will take your word for it that you can do 20 one handed push ups :)

[ilporko]

So those are the wrong movies you linked us?

I said that that the second video was gyeuk gum, which I don't like, and the first one was kumbup, which I do like, though his cuts were wide. I try (note I say try) to do a tight version of the first video (student on his own) and hate the second video.

Even though I am not an expert on the dynamics of proper sword cutting, I do have a basic knowledge on how its done....so therefore, how is this "back-and-forward" motion presented? How is the shinai held / moved when cutting forward?

Back means I bring the mukgum behind my head, and 'forward' means I hit the opponent. Surely you can understand that idea? If I'm hitting the same opponent several times I will go forward, and hit, back, and hit. In a straight line, over my head. Can you pretend you don't do this?

So have I! Finally :D......and I hope to continue it forever until death. Though I havent been to the dojo in about 2 months now....:(.....I will get back into it though...



I have seen the way they hold the swords, and its not correct from my understanding. Any kendoka or kenjutsu practitioner here can clarify.

In which form? Kumbup or gyeuk gum? I'd normally explain, but I'll leave it to you to tell me which you saw. One is shit, IMHO, but the other is good. Do your research, and tell me which you saw: kumbup or gyeuk gum.


"Dont really like that" inclines that you do, DO that. You twirl your sword when you perform in your practices. So therefore, why claim "we dont twirl swords"?

Eh? I may do it, one day a week, but the other four classes a week I don't do it. It's required for testing, so I do it, though I wish it wasn't part of my art. In fact, right now I am thinking of taking up kendo. haven't I made that clear enough to you folks, yet?

:laugh:......ok ok, thats fine by me. I will take your word for it that you can do 20 one handed push ups :)[/QUOTE]

Yes, you will.

[ne0r]

Han? I think you're a bit offensive, aren't you?
Let it go, he already said it: "In fact, right now I am thinking of taking up kendo.".

[ilporko]

Han? I think you're a bit offensive, aren't you?
Let it go, he already said it: "In fact, right now I am thinking of taking up kendo.".

I think/assume that the person saying 'In fact, right now I am thinking of taking up kendo' is me, because that's what I wrote. thanks for the support, if that's what it was intended as.

Now, let me be clear on something I would not normally say on an online forum. I was born with hydrocephalis, had major heart surgery, and an operation in my stomach. I wear glasses, and can see fuck all without them.

So, with poor vision, thus not being able to strike a target properly, with hydrocephalis, thus not being able to withstand a direct strike to the head, and with stomach problems, thus not being able to withstand a direct strike to the stomach, I unwillingly gave up kendo, which I love, and took up haidong gumdo on medical advice. I like gumdo, but a part of me longs for kendo, which I in all probabily can never do. Just because I settle on a softer version of my martial art, should I be sneered, insulted, and beltittled?

[mononokifool]

I think/assume that the person saying 'In fact, right now I am thinking of taking up kendo' is me, because that's what I wrote. thanks for the support, if that's what it was intended as.

Now, let me be clear on something I would not normally say on an online forum. I was born with hydrocephalis, had major heart surgery, and an operation in my stomach. I wear glasses, and can see fuck all without them.

So, with poor vision, thus not being able to strike a target properly, with hydrocephalis, thus not being able to withstand a direct strike to the head, and with stomach problems, thus not being able to withstand a direct strike to the stomach, I unwillingly gave up kendo, which I love, and took up haidong gumdo on medical advice. I like gumdo, but a part of me longs for kendo, which I in all probabily can never do. Just because I settle on a softer version of my martial art, should I be sneered, insulted, and beltittled?
you could always take up iaido

[ilporko]

you could always take up iaido


But what if I want the physical aspect of 'fighting'? I think I'll do haidong gumdo untyil I am physically fit, and then switch to kendo, and try again, this time better prepared.

[ne0r]

Hm, yeah either iaido or I would even try to seek advise from a sensei in kendo, maybe you'll be able to take up kendo anyhow?

You've been doing kendo for some time, have you been in bogu yet? Because I cannot imagine that kendo is "harder" than HDGD.
I don't know about that hydrocephalis thing, but with your men on you shouldn't have problems with hits to the head; maybe from time to time people will hit harder than necessary and thus hurt you, but there are always men-paddings.
Depending on your glasses you can wear them under your men (just like me) or order a special men from chibabogu.com that has groves in the uchiwa (that's the name, isn't it?) so glasses fit under it.
You shouldn't get any direct hits (even indirect ones) to your stomach in kendo, by the way.

[nonamehandle]

:laugh:.....:rolleyes:
.
.
.
:laugh:......ok ok, thats fine by me. I will take your word for it that you can do 20 one handed push ups :)

boy you are an obnoxious little creature aren't you?
if someone could steer me clear away from doing kendo, it would be you~

i remember from reading your early posts that people were quite rough with you here on the forum (and some still are now), but i hope that you don't consciously or unconsciously take your past experience to mean that you SHOULD do likewise to others; even if you had wanted people to be mean and rude to you (because of a martyr complex) so that what you are now doing might technically be a version of the golden rule, it fully violates the spirit of the golden rule.

i do not particularly like HDGD, but Ilporko seems to be a reasonable person and someone that i would not mind talking to. you on the other hand are doing kendo, but i would not want to be around your company. someone could be doing HDGD and be a likeable person and someone could be doing kendo and be an "arse"-you being the prime example of the latter.

i am hesitant on being even more critical of you only because there is a little amount of "guilt" i feel for the forumites having treated you badly: but then, sensing your views on religion, i sort of get the feeling that your character flaws were existent even before the rough handling you received here.


btw, the ogami itto quote, "The True way of the Warrior is to live, to die." should probably be read as "The True way of the Warrior is to live to die." (without the comma-i do not like to correct grammar on the internet, but in this case it is not the grammar i am correcting but the misconception of the quote.). i wonder if you similarly misread other TEXT...

[mononokifool]

But what if I want the physical aspect of 'fighting'? I think I'll do haidong gumdo untyil I am physically fit, and then switch to kendo, and try again, this time better prepared.

I can understand where you would think that iai is worse in this situation but your wrong. Being completely honest iaido is harder than kendo. I can do suburi all day but practicing my batto all day is way harder. Also if you do plan on getting back into kendo, and i think this is the most important aspect, your going to ruin your from with HG. Iai and kendo really complement each other and my kendo has gotten so much better as soon as i started doing iaido. By making cuts and such like i have seen in the videos you are honestly putting yourself behind despite you thinking you are better off. If you truly want to be ready to start kendo up again physically then grab a shinai and go do some tobi koby men every day and practice what waza you know.

Also remember the mentality is different as well, and I am warning you do not go into a kendo/iaido dojo doing your HG forms or twirling your sword. Go in there thinking that you dont know anything and you are a beginner. Good luck with your endeavors and i promise if you truly love the sword then a koryu is the place to be. Even seitei would be good if you want to try kendo again .

[ilporko]

You know what I love about this forum? People are helpful.

I like HDGD, but there are certain things I don't like. Permit me to explain, in the context of going back to a more martial art.

My weekly schedule:

Monday: Kumbup. One person. Many cuts.
Tuesday: Cutting. paper, bamboo, wood, candles.
Wednesday. Non-HDGD. Hapkido, taekwondo, taekyyon, takkyon moo sool.
Thursday: Sparring.
Friday: Physical training.
Saturday: Cutting and sparring.

Oh, and gyeuk gum have to be put in there too.

I love cutting and sparring. I don't like gyeuk gum (demonstrations). I don't understand Wednesday. I learn a little hapkido, and then it's a month before I learn it again. That's no good.

I want a physically demanding art that invovles some competition with opponents, swords, forms, and respect. I tried kendo, and left it on medical advice, but I recently asked my mother to post my hakama out here. I feel the old urge for kendo rising, and this time I'm not going to stop it.

Fuck HDGD. I think this discussion is pointless, despite the support I've received. I'm going back to kendo.

[ne0r]

Nah, you don't need to do any exercises before joining. Just make sure your health is ok (Which I believe is ok. I have seen so many people with health issues do kendo. There were even ones with only one arm or Henry Smalls, who has no legs). But monokifool is right: The cuts you practised in HG will probably differ from "kendo-cuts", so it could be a bit hard in the beginning.

[ne0r]

Hm, you seem very determined. I say that's very good^^

If you manage to do all that physically demanding stuff in HG, kendo will be no problem for you.

Good luck in your journey!

[ilporko]

Thanks NeOr.

Yeah the beginning will be difficult, but the way I look at it is that I left kendo (Korean kendo) to do HDGD for one reason ONLY: I was afraid of injury, and medical problems. I niw believe that my medical problems will be uninportant, provided I take care. My mother asked me if I was taking up that sword thingie, and in the context of someone whose life has been dominated by medical problems, I said no.

In the meantime I;ve been to Mt Everest, despite my doctor asking my mother to beg me to not go there. But, I say, the sight of the summit of Mt Everest rising in front of me, and the slow slog towards it, were the highlight of my life. Seeing Mt Everest, falling on my knees, screaming and crying before the summit, and realising that 12 months' work was finished was glorious. I put the same qork into my MA. I've a target, and I'll work towards it. As I said to my mother: I originally wanted to do kendo. I gave it up for medical reasons, but now I'm going back. If it kills me, at least I died trying to live my life my way. My mother isn't happy.

[nonamehandle]

As I said to my mother: I originally wanted to do kendo. I gave it up for medical reasons, but now I'm going back. If it kills me, at least I died trying ti live my life my way. My mother isn't happy.


Hey Ilporko!

most of the comments that you have received here are not from "senseis" or even experienced kenshis for that matter. nor are they knowledgeable on medical matters, or the particular medical reasons that you have. many are just starting kenshis, with experiences totaling less than 10 years. you should not base your decisions that touch on health from what people say here, no matter how helpful (or unhelpful) they seem. your doctor, mother, and senseis that can see you directly will be much more suited for that.

i think any responsible and mature kenshi would advise you in the same manner.

[ne0r]

Agreed.

>>>>>

[ilporko]

Thanks for the replies, peeps.

What I really want to know can't be answered by you guys, because a wrong answer could cause a stroke for me (which I've experienced) or a coma (which I've experienced) or even death.

When I speak to my doctor I want to be able to say 'These highly experienced people say kendo is safe'. I don't like gyeuk gum (demonstrations) and wonder why in HDGD we learn such moves, and never use them. The gyeuk gum (deomstration) are strange.

I want to return to kendo, but on the nasis that the first fumokomi (spelling?) does not put me in a coma. Of course I will go to my doctor, but I'm asking you guys what you think of a person with a delicate head doimg kendo.

[mononokifool]

you have to remember kendo is a contact sport. you will have bruises but mainly on your arms and right under your armpits

[Lady_Kitsune]

At least, in my case I had never been in a coma or anything cos of Kendo, only some bruises and some scratches, but nothing further than that

[Kaoru]

I think/assume that the person saying 'In fact, right now I am thinking of taking up kendo' is me, because that's what I wrote. thanks for the support, if that's what it was intended as.

Now, let me be clear on something I would not normally say on an online forum. I was born with hydrocephalis, had major heart surgery, and an operation in my stomach. I wear glasses, and can see fuck all without them.

So, with poor vision, thus not being able to strike a target properly, with hydrocephalis, thus not being able to withstand a direct strike to the head, and with stomach problems, thus not being able to withstand a direct strike to the stomach, I unwillingly gave up kendo, which I love, and took up haidong gumdo on medical advice. I like gumdo, but a part of me longs for kendo, which I in all probabily can never do. Just because I settle on a softer version of my martial art, should I be sneered, insulted, and beltittled?

I am going to go read the rest of this thread to catch up, but I couldn't help but notice this post right off.

Ok... if you mean you can't strike a target properly due to poor vision, I don't feel sorry for you. YOU COULD TOO!! Lame excuse... VERY lame excuse! Messing with me in terms of lack of vision is NOT a good idea, just to let you know... :)
'Cause if you try to complain about it, I'll just clobber you, because if I can do it, so can you! I actually was forced to take my glasses off at camp this past year because my face was so sweaty that they were falling off. And I can't see anything at all without them, and have to be led places. See, I'm legally blind in one eye with my glasses and blind in the other.(Btw, the legal def. of that is vision corrected w/glasses to 20/200 or worse, otherwise, you are not legally blind.) And, know what? I landed every single strike where I was supposed to. I can hear when I do and don't. The sound changes depending on where/how you strike. The only one I had a slight problem with at first, was doh, but I worked that one out.

So, stop with the "I can't strike a target correctly with bad vision," ok? I don't buy it! If you know your waza well, and practice hard enough, you can strike the target properly. I can land my strikes properly most of the time with and without my glasses and so could you if you bothered to try.

However, sometimes I have a bad day, like anyone else here, and can't do things the way I feel they should be done. I can miss, or, I strike a little off just like anyone, and at this point, I really can't blame it on bad vision because of the length I have trained now. That would be pretty lame and stupid. In my opinion, if you don't practice hard and make an extra effort in the dojo and in between practices at home, then it's YOUR fault you made a mistake. When you have bad vision, then you have to work extra hard to keep up with the rest of the sighted people.

At the beginning when I first started, yeah, I did have a lot of trouble at first with maai and striking in the correct spots due to my vision, but I figured out how to deal. Maai still does bedevil me at times though since I have no depth perception and have to mind it constantly!

In terms of not doing kendo... You CAN do kendo if you really WANT to. You do not have to wear bogu to enjoy it. You do as much as you can do, and don't do what you cannot do, to keep yourself safe.

If you want to do kendo, go do kendo! Nothing can stop you from doing kendo if you want to do it. If you can't get hit, so what? It's still fun to go against motodachi anyway. And, some motodachi are really fun. I had one who "fought" me in uchikomi geiko once. He circled me and wouldn't give an inch, and it felt like a real fight. It was loads of fun and I learned a lot even though I'm not in bogu yet.

Out of curiosity, why couldn't you get struck with the doh(huri) on? The doh is strong and protects. We don't spar without the armour on, ever. Have you really worn bogu at all? You'd know that if you did.

And, about the head, well, that's understandable.

I don't see why you couldn't wear the kote and doh though, and just fight minimally once you earned bogu, within the dojo. You couldn't do tournaments though.

Oh yeah... I have a heart condition too. But, I do kendo still. I just know my limits and most of the time, know when to stop.

I will be replying to your PM soon.

Kaoru

[ilporko]

[QUOTE=Kaoru;318301]

Ok... if you mean you can't strike a target properly due to poor vision, I don't feel sorry for you. YOU COULD TOO!! Lame excuse... VERY lame excuse! Messing with me in terms of lack of vision is NOT a good idea, just to let you know... :)

I mean poor vision in the sense that I aim for your head and hit your chest. I don't see in three dimensions. I sse in two dimensions. I can't catch a ball thrown at me. I have trouble opening a door. I walk with a sideways slant. I can't lift ne foot off the ground without falling to one side. My brain sees six pictures where your brain sees 2. It took me 16 years to write and to read a computer screen, and I still make mistakes as you can see (and I can't).

So, stop with the "I can't strike a target correctly with bad vision," ok? I don't buy it! If you know your waza well, and practice hard enough, you can strike the target properly. I can land my strikes properly most of the time
with and without my glasses and so could you if you bothered to try.

I spent 16 years needing a computer to write, and I have damn all control over my right arm. I want to have such control, but I don't. I struggle to write a letter. I'm worried that this level of disability will affect my kendo.


...When you have bad vision, then you have to work extra hard to keep up with the rest of the sighted people.

I've learned this over many years. I wonder if it will affect my ability to hit without causing too much damage. You seem to think not.



In terms of not doing kendo... You CAN do kendo if you really WANT to. You do not have to wear bogu to enjoy it. You do as much as you can do, and don't do what you cannot do, to keep yourself safe.

Is kendo not about sparring in bogu with shinai?

Related to this, what is 'motodachi'?

Out of curiosity, why couldn't you get struck with the doh(huri) on? The doh is strong and protects. We don't spar without the armour on, ever. Have you really worn bogu at all? You'd know that if you did.

I had a major-ish operation down there and am extremely sensitive to a hit there. If the bogy protects that area, that's fine.

And, about the head, well, that's understandable.

I don't see why you couldn't wear the kote and doh though

This is the kind of advice I'm looking for. People who have experienced similiar situations can help me.

Thanks for all the help Kaoru. It's really useful to get am idea of how other people with ... medical difficulties deal with kendo.

[Kendoka_Han]

I think/assume that the person saying 'In fact, right now I am thinking of taking up kendo' is me, because that's what I wrote. thanks for the support, if that's what it was intended as.

Now, let me be clear on something I would not normally say on an online forum. I was born with hydrocephalis, had major heart surgery, and an operation in my stomach. I wear glasses, and can see fuck all without them.

So, with poor vision, thus not being able to strike a target properly, with hydrocephalis, thus not being able to withstand a direct strike to the head, and with stomach problems, thus not being able to withstand a direct strike to the stomach, I unwillingly gave up kendo, which I love, and took up haidong gumdo on medical advice. I like gumdo, but a part of me longs for kendo, which I in all probabily can never do. Just because I settle on a softer version of my martial art, should I be sneered, insulted, and beltittled?

Why not take up traditional Kenjutsu or Iaido?

[ilporko]

Iaido is mostly cutting, right?

(Looking at Iado forum.)

[mononokifool]

Iaido is mostly cutting, right?

(Looking at Iado forum.)
iaido includes cutting called tameshigiri but iaido is composed of kata's. http://youtube.com/watch?v=jJMR1fiUD4Y I have posted this video already but its just a good example. there are many different styles though. people i think are mostly seitei,MJER, or MSR but im not sure.

[rainmaker]

Again, I don't think we should give you any advise on this. You need to go visit Kendo class and experience it yourself. And consult with sensei or doctors and ultimately, you will need to make decision. Kaoru really doesn't know your health problem so her advise is purely based on her own experience. Good luck !!!

[quote=Kaoru;318301]

Ok... if you mean you can't strike a target properly due to poor vision, I don't feel sorry for you. YOU COULD TOO!! Lame excuse... VERY lame excuse! Messing with me in terms of lack of vision is NOT a good idea, just to let you know... :)

I mean poor vision in the sense that I aim for your head and hit your chest. I don't see in three dimensions. I sse in two dimensions. I can't catch a ball thrown at me. I have trouble opening a door. I walk with a sideways slant. I can't lift ne foot off the ground without falling to one side. My brain sees six pictures where your brain sees 2. It took me 16 years to write and to read a computer screen, and I still make mistakes as you can see (and I can't).

So, stop with the "I can't strike a target correctly with bad vision," ok? I don't buy it! If you know your waza well, and practice hard enough, you can strike the target properly. I can land my strikes properly most of the time
with and without my glasses and so could you if you bothered to try.

I spent 16 years needing a computer to write, and I have damn all control over my right arm. I want to have such control, but I don't. I struggle to write a letter. I'm worried that this level of disability will affect my kendo.


...When you have bad vision, then you have to work extra hard to keep up with the rest of the sighted people.

I've learned this over many years. I wonder if it will affect my ability to hit without causing too much damage. You seem to think not.



In terms of not doing kendo... You CAN do kendo if you really WANT to. You do not have to wear bogu to enjoy it. You do as much as you can do, and don't do what you cannot do, to keep yourself safe.

Is kendo not about sparring in bogu with shinai?

Related to this, what is 'motodachi'?

Out of curiosity, why couldn't you get struck with the doh(huri) on? The doh is strong and protects. We don't spar without the armour on, ever. Have you really worn bogu at all? You'd know that if you did.

I had a major-ish operation down there and am extremely sensitive to a hit there. If the bogy protects that area, that's fine.

And, about the head, well, that's understandable.

I don't see why you couldn't wear the kote and doh though

This is the kind of advice I'm looking for. People who have experienced similiar situations can help me.

Thanks for all the help Kaoru. It's really useful to get am idea of how other people with ... medical difficulties deal with kendo.

[Charles Lockhar]

In terms of not doing kendo... You CAN do kendo if you really WANT to. You do not have to wear bogu to enjoy it. You do as much as you can do, and don't do what you cannot do, to keep yourself safe.

If you want to do kendo, go do kendo! Nothing can stop you from doing kendo if you want to do it. If you can't get hit, so what? It's still fun to go against motodachi anyway. And, some motodachi are really fun. I had one who "fought" me in uchikomi geiko once. He circled me and wouldn't give an inch, and it felt like a real fight. It was loads of fun and I learned a lot even though I'm not in bogu yet.


I don't mean to be a killjoy, or to discourage anybody, and these are all my opinions, which aren't worth much. And I'm a jerk, so...

I really believe that you get out of kendo what you put into it. And to me that means if you have health problems that will affect your kendo, you're going to get less out of it. And the more you can't do, the more you're going to miss out on, and if you're like me, the more frustration you're going to feel about it.

If you can't do shiai, then in my opinion, you're already getting a heavily dumbed down version of the kendo experience, and it's worth putting some real thought and consideration into whether that's what you want, and whether it it will work for you. There are many gratifying experiences to be had out there, possibly something else would work better for you.

If you really you can never receive men or do, and can't strike accurately because of a lack of depth perception and aren't ever able to compensate for it, well, it's not that you can't do kendo, as Carolyn mentioned, there are parts of kendo practice that you can do, if you can be "satisfied" with that limited set of practice, then sure, why not do kendo? But if that's not going to be enough for you, well, if it was me, I'd find something else to do with my time.

Out of curiosity, why couldn't you get struck with the doh(huri) on? The doh is strong and protects. We don't spar without the armour on, ever.Do strikes can and do miss (are they still do strikes?), and even with the do on, receiving a strong strike to the do still can have significant impact. I think that because it's so "well protected" compared to the kote or men, there's emphasis on striking the do harder and faster. I have had people really nail me in shiai, and I felt it, it hurt, not a lot, but if I'd had any health problems in that area it could have been significant.

Again, my advice is probably not relevant, so take it with huge grains of salt.

Have you really worn bogu at all? You'd know that if you did.
Yeah, you tell 'em how it is!

-Charles

[Charles Lockhar]

What I really want to know can't be answered by you guys, because a wrong answer could cause a stroke for me (which I've experienced) or a coma (which I've experienced) or even death.

When I speak to my doctor I want to be able to say 'These highly experienced people say kendo is safe'.

To me, these statements conflict. Significantly.

-Charles

[samurai80]

Yeah, you tell 'em how it is!

-Charles

I wish I had said that. +reppies

[Bokushingu]

ok you went from this...
Stretching of all limbs, back, neck.
100 cheun myun pegi (centre head strike).
50 chwa-u pegi (same as left and right kote)
50 sam-dan pegi (head strike followed by left and right kote).
20 gwang-ja pegi (sam-dan pegi with heuri/ waist strike and two diagonal cuts to the shoulders).
1,000 cheun myun pegi.
skipping. 200 jumps in two minutes.
100 push-ups
50 push-ups on the tips of the fingers.
20 one-handed push-ups.
100 sit ups.

The rest of the lesson involves forms, technical work on stance and grip, unarmed combat especially with high kicks, and whee chota which is sparring with cutting (whee) or stabbing (chota) motions. In sparring the whole body is a target and we spar using bokken with no bogu apart from the ho-myeon or face mask.



to this...
Now, let me be clear on something I would not normally say on an online forum. I was born with hydrocephalis, had major heart surgery, and an operation in my stomach. I wear glasses, and can see fuck all without them.

So, with poor vision, thus not being able to strike a target properly, with hydrocephalis, thus not being able to withstand a direct strike to the head, and with stomach problems, thus not being able to withstand a direct strike to the stomach, I unwillingly gave up kendo, which I love, and took up haidong gumdo on medical advice. I like gumdo, but a part of me longs for kendo, which I in all probabily can never do. Just because I settle on a softer version of my martial art, should I be sneered, insulted, and beltittled?


there are some statements that contradict each other about your health & physical capabilities. Furthermore why give up something you really like to criticsim on an online forum? Your earlier posts expressed passion for HDGD...then you just give it up? I have to admit I'm a beginner of kendo not even a shodan. I'm a healthcare worker but not a doctor. Stick to your guns and stay true to yourself...as I said before, you don't have to explain yourself unless you compare your art to other JSA's.

[ilporko]

ok there are some statements that contradict each other about your health & physical capabilities.

Not really. I have a fairly high level of stamina (IMHO), so I can do push ups and what not fairly well, if slowly.

Furthermore why give up something you really like to criticsim on an online forum? Your earlier posts expressed passion for HDGD...then you just give it up?

I've changed dojangs recently, and have doubts about my previous one. Those doubts extend to gumdo itself.

I only ever started gumdo because I was worried about hits to my head (the only significant medical reason not to do kendo/kumdo). Gumdo has the cutting, which I really like; forms, which I also like; and sparring, which I find surprisingly enjoyable.

Now, if I was sure I could spar safely, I would never have taken up gumdo, and would still be doing kumdo/kendo. Doing gumdo shows I can do more than I always assumed I could (even skipping is supposed to be impossible for me, but I can do it). I'm also finding that I spar in a kendo style. In fact, the other students and staff say my biggest problem is that my kendo/kumdo background is very obvious.


I think it's all about getting enough out of a martial art to justify doing it, as someone said already. I like sparring, dislike choreographed displays, and like the cutting and forms in gumdo. Korean kendo has some forms, a better (IMHO) form of sparring, but far less cutting (right?). If I do kendo, I'll miss the satisfaction of rattling off a sam-dan pegi or snapping wooden sheets with a clean, neat, cut. But if I do kendo, I get the sparring. I'm in two minds about this, going from kendo to gumdo and back again.

Stick to your guns and stay true to yourself...as I said before, you don't have to explain yourself unless you compare your art to other JSA's.

Message too short, blah blah blah.

[Mosquite]

Actually there is none cutting in kendo and very very little (or none) in iaido but if you like kendo sparring and forms and cutting practises why should you try to look for battojutsu. You could mainly practise kendo and then have a lesson or two battojutsu in a week. Only problem is that battojutsu dojos are pretty hard to find but good luck for looking for them.

[Kaoru]

Again, I don't think we should give you any advise on this. You need to go visit Kendo class and experience it yourself. And consult with sensei or doctors and ultimately, you will need to make decision. Kaoru really doesn't know your health problem so her advise is purely based on her own experience. Good luck !!!


He was originally talking about a VISION impairment, and he only came up with all that stuff after I told him that he CAN do those things if he REALLY wanted to and tried.

A person can always find a way around a vision problem if they WANT to and try. It is not just my own experience. Only an idiot would make such excuses not to at least try to do something just because they have a vision impairment. Also, any other severely vision impaired person would tell him the same thing in regard to bad vision and doing things, so it isn't just my own experience. I'm not the only one on the planet with a bad vision impairment.

And, I say he can learn to catch a ball and do the other stuff. They are NOT hard!! If I can do it, then so can he! Geez. I hate it when people cop out on the easy stuff.

However, the stuff he replied to me with, are NOT disabilities at all, as you will see in the next couple posts of mine. I did a little(understatement here!) research on hydrocephalus... :)

Kaoru

[ilporko]

He was originally talking about a VISION impairment, and he only came up with all that stuff after I told him that he CAN do those things if he REALLY wanted to and tried.

Only an idiot would make such excuses not to at least

[IAnd, I say he can learn to catch a ball and do the other stuff. They are NOT hard!! If I can do it, then so can he! Geez. I hate it when people cop out on the easy stuff.

However, the stuff he replied to me with, are NOT disabilities at all, as you will see in the next couple posts of mine. I did a little(understatement here!) research on hydrocephalus... :)

Kaoru

I said that I have had operations, mentioned the other stuff, and then said that my vision is affected. Anyway, here's my thinking behind this thread and the one on the medical requirements for kendo.

Kendo was my first martial art, though I stopped doing it because of worries about medical issues. I did HDGD because I thought it would be kind of the same, but more suitable to me. I found that I like some parts of HDGD, hate others, and really like two parts in particular.

I also found that cardio work is not a problem, as I can do that sort of stuff well. So, I started to think about going back to kendo, not because I hate HDGD, but because I would never have done it in the first place, if I could have stayed doing kendo.

I can't make a decision about kendo until I go back to Ireland, as I'll have to speak to my doctors there, and also want to avoid language problems here in Korea. That'll be in September at the earliest, so I have time to work on the basics, look at kendo, and decide whether this negativity towards gumdo is just because of some problems with the new dojang (no adult students, new style, massive language barrier, doubts about my old dojang, having to admit that my technique is so bad I need to relearn the basics) or really the start of my return to kendo. If I stay in Korea past September, I might change dojang to one with more adult members, better English, and so on. Then again, I might be able to work around these things with the sabumnin.

I'd leave it at that, but you strike me as being a bit rude here, Kaoru, so I'll point out a few things for you (and see what research you have to show to us).

Cardio work is not my problem; physical impacts might be. The left side of my abdomen, just at the waist, is sensitive to impacts, though not as much as before. I have to find out if I can stand up to hits there, which I expect would still be felt, even through the bogu.

My doctors have already said that the left side of my chest (not my ehart), just under my armpit, is sensitive to major impacts, and i should avoid being hit there. Mind you, they later said that they may be wrong about this. Opinions range from 'No problem' to 'Major disaster', and a full medical check is lined up for when I go home.

Strikes to the head are a problem. I've taken some, and even my local doctor agrees that I am far better off than was ever expected, but the fact remains: I'm regarded as an exception, and the usual opinion is that people in my position can't do kendo-type stuff. But again, I'm different in this regard, so the doctor most able to give an opinion left it as me needing a full medical exam before doing kendo (I asked about this last year).

Now, Kaoru, are you really going to tell me that the websites or books or whatever you looked at are going to give you more knowledge than that available to me, the surgeon who performed the operation in question, specialists, and two of the leading experts anywhere?

[Kaoru]

I said that I have had operations, mentioned the other stuff, and then said that my vision is affected. Anyway, here's my thinking behind this thread and the one on the medical requirements for kendo.

Kendo was my first martial art, though I stopped doing it because of worries about medical issues. I did HDGD because I thought it would be kind of the same, but more suitable to me. I found that I like some parts of HDGD, hate others, and really like two parts in particular.

I also found that cardio work is not a problem, as I can do that sort of stuff well. So, I started to think about going back to kendo, not because I hate HDGD, but because I would never have done it in the first place, if I could have stayed doing kendo.

I can't make a decision about kendo until I go back to Ireland, as I'll have to speak to my doctors there, and also want to avoid language problems here in Korea. That'll be in September at the earliest, so I have time to work on the basics, look at kendo, and decide whether this negativity towards gumdo is just because of some problems with the new dojang (no adult students, new style, massive language barrier, doubts about my old dojang, having to admit that my technique is so bad I need to relearn the basics) or really the start of my return to kendo. If I stay in Korea past September, I might change dojang to one with more adult members, better English, and so on. Then again, I might be able to work around these things with the sabumnin.

I'd leave it at that, but you strike me as being a bit rude here, Kaoru, so I'll point out a few things for you (and see what research you have to show to us).

Cardio work is not my problem; physical impacts might be. The left side of my abdomen, just at the waist, is sensitive to impacts, though not as much as before. I have to find out if I can stand up to hits there, which I expect would still be felt, even through the bogu.

My doctors have already said that the left side of my chest (not my ehart), just under my armpit, is sensitive to major impacts, and i should avoid being hit there. Mind you, they later said that they may be wrong about this. Opinions range from 'No problem' to 'Major disaster', and a full medical check is lined up for when I go home.

Strikes to the head are a problem. I've taken some, and even my local doctor agrees that I am far better off than was ever expected, but the fact remains: I'm regarded as an exception, and the usual opinion is that people in my position can't do kendo-type stuff. But again, I'm different in this regard, so the doctor most able to give an opinion left it as me needing a full medical exam before doing kendo (I asked about this last year).

Now, Kaoru, are you really going to tell me that the websites or books or whatever you looked at are going to give you more knowledge than that available to me, the surgeon who performed the operation in question, specialists, and two of the leading experts anywhere?

Your hydrocephalus was from birth and it would have been corrected right away, since it was congenital(from birth) or you'd have died or been brain damaged for life. Most people die from it, even if it is acquired(can occur at any age) hydrocephalus.

Doctors don't always give you complete information. You often have to do your own research to learn more about what you have. I have a lot of good information from very reliable sources as you'll see. Besides, when you were a baby, your parents got the info, not you. And, I'm not sure just how much you actually have read about it yourself.

The reason why I'm posting this, is because you posted a bunch of crap about how disabled you are, in response to my post. That's what I have a problem with. I think you just went too far in your disability claims. You may have been BORN with hydrocephalus, but if you never got it treated, as your "disabilities" suggest, that really are the symptoms of it, you'd be dead or at the very least, be very brain damaged as a result. But, since it is nearly always fatal if not treated, you'd definitely be dead. And, you'd not be using a sword or sparring with all those symptoms(they are not disabilities), I can promise you. You'd be a danger to yourself and others.

I think you forgot what you wrote to me, didn't you? Keep track of what you say please.

Oh, and so you know, hydrocephalus hasn't a thing to do with your side and your heart condition and I was not talking about that. For your info, I have a heart condition too. :) I have 2 things-a heart murmur and pulmonary arterial stenosis, which is the narrowing of the arteries in the heart. The narrowed arteries make it harder for blood to flow through the heart. And, it makes it harder to breathe when I do a lot. But, does that stop me? Nope! I just understand I have to be careful and know when to stop. That's hard sometimes though, when I DON'T want to stop. I'm kinda stubborn... I like practicing too much... But, I'm also not stupid and will stop, even though I won't want to.

I just want to point out a few things to you that ticked me off a bit because if you really were as disabled as you claimed in your response to me, you wouldn't be doing all the stuff you claim to do, and you'd not even be here, since they are not disabilities.

You may have a vision problem but I don't know that it is as bad as you say. You should know that double vision(seeing two things instead of one) is one of the symptoms of hydrocephalus and would go away once treated. There IS such thing as double vision that can occur by itself, but I believe that can be corrected with glasses. I remember reading somewhere about that.

I just would prefer that you didn't just toss out stuff and then contradict yourself.

Kaoru

[ilporko]

Hey Kaoru.

Where did I contradict myself in my posts?

My hydrocephalus was stopped without need of a shunt, meaning that the doctors didn't treat it. More precisely, the effects stopped before I received treatment. The damage caused was fairly extreme, but I'm not going into more details here. You said that hydrocephalus, if untreated, causes brian damage. Indeed it does, and as one doctor said, there is no medical explaination for why I recovered. (This was said to me, not just to my parents.)

Residual damage to the brain means that my blood vessels there are weakened, so repeated or major hits to the head are to be avoided. Is this true? Well, when I spin hin HDGD, I feel dizzy and often lose my balance-even for fairly simple moves. If I take a direct hit to the face, or move too quickly, my vision is distorted, right up to the point where I can't read or co-ordinate eye and hands.

So, yes, I think I have a need to be sure I can take meori and other head strikes, before I think about returning to kendo.

[ilporko]

My post, to which you replied with your points about vision. I include all four points at once (points being head, chest, abdomen/stomach, and vision).

Originally Posted by ilporko
I think/assume that the person saying 'In fact, right now I am thinking of taking up kendo' is me, because that's what I wrote. thanks for the support, if that's what it was intended as.

Now, let me be clear on something I would not normally say on an online forum. I was born with hydrocephalis, had major heart surgery, and an operation in my stomach. I wear glasses, and can see fuck all without them.

So, with poor vision, thus not being able to strike a target properly, with hydrocephalis, thus not being able to withstand a direct strike to the head, and with stomach problems, thus not being able to withstand a direct strike to the stomach, I unwillingly gave up kendo, which I love, and took up haidong gumdo on medical advice. I like gumdo, but a part of me longs for kendo, which I in all probabily can never do. Just because I settle on a softer version of my martial art, should I be sneered, insulted, and beltittled?

[corwyn]

ilporko: My suggestion is to do what you think is right. Follow the advice of your doctor(s), follow your mind, follow your heart. Don't Kaoru, or anyone else on an Internet forum, tell you what you can and can't do, what you should or should not do. Your health, your life, and your happiness are in your hands.

Perhaps you should go talk to your doctor (and maybe a doctor of sports medicine, as well) about what you want to do. Find out if it's safe. Or if there's anything you can do to make it safer for you. If there's anything you can do about your vision. Etc... And then you can make the decision of whether or not it's worth it to you, if you can afford it (beyond what insurance will pay), etc.

Just my $0.02.

[nonamehandle]

Your hydrocephalus was from birth and it would have been corrected right away...
.
.
.
Kaoru

wow...i feel disgusted after having read your post...just leave the guy alone and stop giving him your version of "friendly advice".

and to quote, "You don't need to waste your time writing me a 1000 word rebuke. Some neg rep will be just fine."


Ilporko,

save yourself some agony and don't bother replying to kaoru on this subject.

[tango]

ilporko...

two things...

1. if your doctors say you shouldn't be getting hit on the head, then forget about kendo.
I really have no idea how much of a strike would be "too much" for your head to take, but i know i've been hit *just* right several times and have seen stars. that's probably not the kind of hit your doctors would want you to take.

2. if you doctors say you shouldn't be getting hit just under the armpit on your left side, then forget about kendo.
Again, I don't know how much of a strike would be "too much" for that part of your body to take, but I can guarantee that if you start doing kendo [and manage to fully participate in every aspect of the class], you will get hit there and you will get his there HARD. In fact, I can virtually guarantee that you will take at least an accidental thrust directly into the armpit.

quite frankly, your medical issues make it sound as if contact sports in general are something you should avoid, and that most certainly includes kendo and kumdo.

[tango]

wow...i feel disgusted after having read your post...just leave the guy alone and stop giving him your version of "friendly advice".

and to quote, "You don't need to waste your time writing me a 1000 word rebuke. Some neg rep will be just fine."


Ilporko,

save yourself some agony and don't bother replying to kaoru on this subject.

i agree.
+rep

[Kaoru]

My post, to which you replied with your points about vision. I include all four points at once (points being head, chest, abdomen/stomach, and vision).

Originally Posted by ilporko
I think/assume that the person saying 'In fact, right now I am thinking of taking up kendo' is me, because that's what I wrote. thanks for the support, if that's what it was intended as.

Now, let me be clear on something I would not normally say on an online forum. I was born with hydrocephalis, had major heart surgery, and an operation in my stomach. I wear glasses, and can see fuck all without them.

So, with poor vision, thus not being able to strike a target properly, with hydrocephalis, thus not being able to withstand a direct strike to the head, and with stomach problems, thus not being able to withstand a direct strike to the stomach, I unwillingly gave up kendo, which I love, and took up haidong gumdo on medical advice. I like gumdo, but a part of me longs for kendo, which I in all probabily can never do. Just because I settle on a softer version of my martial art, should I be sneered, insulted, and beltittled?

No. I am referring this stuff that you wrote:


I mean poor vision in the sense that I aim for your head and hit your chest. I don't see in three dimensions. I sse in two dimensions. I can't catch a ball thrown at me.
I will address these easily learned things above in my next post. To me, this is just whining. Geez, I learned to do this stuff, and so can you. And, so you know, it's called a lack of depth perception. You don't really see literally in two dimensions but the world looks a little flatter. I have this too. That is not the same thing as double vision btw. Double vision is NOT seeing in 2 dimensions. It's seeing 2 of the same thing.

And, this is the stuff I was mainly referring to, that you wrote:


I have trouble opening a door. I walk with a sideways slant. I can't lift ne foot off the ground without falling to one side. My brain sees six pictures where your brain sees 2. It took me 16 years to write and to read a computer screen, and I still make mistakes as you can see (and I can't).

I spent 16 years needing a computer to write, and I have damn all control over my right arm. I want to have such control, but I don't. I struggle to write a letter. I'm worried that this level of disability will affect my kendo.
These are SYMPTOMS of hydrocephalus, not results of it. If you were really that messed up, you never could spar OR use a sword and do any of the stuff you said you do. You'd be a danger to yourself and others. And, you'd end up either dead or brain damaged if left untreated. Most likely dead, since it is nearly always fatal.

And then, you said this somewhere else:

My weekly schedule:

Monday: Kumbup. One person. Many cuts.
Tuesday: Cutting. paper, bamboo, wood, candles.
Wednesday. Non-HDGD. Hapkido, taekwondo, taekyyon, takkyon moo sool.
Thursday: Sparring.
Friday: Physical training.
Saturday: Cutting and sparring.

Oh, and gyeuk gum have to be put in there too.

I love cutting and sparring. I don't like gyeuk gum (demonstrations). I don't understand Wednesday. I learn a little hapkido, and then it's a month before I learn it again. That's no good.


That's what contradicts.

I have to finish my reply to that post of yours with this stuff in it.

Kaoru

[corwyn]

i agree.
+rep

That goes for me, too.

For anyone who doesn't already know, if you go to the "User CP" link at the top, and then "Buddy / Ignore Lists" from the menu on the left, you can add someone to your ignore list so that you don't ever have to see their posts. You have to explicitly click on a link for the post to become visible.

[tango]

Kaoru --- I think you've made your point and while Corwyn's suggestion is a good one, I don't use it.

You're beating a dead horse now.

You have a way of running off at the keyboard [as do I]...

Here is the question he needs answered:
I want to return to kendo, but on the nasis that the first fumokomi (spelling?) does not put me in a coma. Of course I will go to my doctor, but I'm asking you guys what you think of a person with a delicate head doimg kendo.

Wading through everything else that he's typing, this should be a simple answer from even a novice kenshi.
He doesn't need to be getting hit on the head. Inasmuch as he finds pleasure in doing some aspects of kendo [and he finds a teacher than can accomodate him], maybe he can do it. But full-on, normal kendo class with full participation and jigeiko --- FORGET IT.

That is all he needs to know.

[tango]

maybe all this other stuff that's getting on your nerves can be taken to PM? or email?

just a thought.

[Kaoru]

ilporko: My suggestion is to do what you think is right. Follow the advice of your doctor(s), follow your mind, follow your heart. Don't Kaoru, or anyone else on an Internet forum, tell you what you can and can't do, what you should or should not do. Your health, your life, and your happiness are in your hands.

Perhaps you should go talk to your doctor (and maybe a doctor of sports medicine, as well) about what you want to do. Find out if it's safe. Or if there's anything you can do to make it safer for you. If there's anything you can do about your vision. Etc... And then you can make the decision of whether or not it's worth it to you, if you can afford it (beyond what insurance will pay), etc.

Just my $0.02.

wow...i feel disgusted after having read your post...just leave the guy alone and stop giving him your version of "friendly advice".

and to quote, "You don't need to waste your time writing me a 1000 word rebuke. Some neg rep will be just fine."


Ilporko,

save yourself some agony and don't bother replying to kaoru on this subject.

i agree.
+rep

Look guys. I never told him NOT to listen to his doctor, not did I say he can get hit on the head or anything of the sort. Read my first post on the subject, then the others. In the first post I wrote, I told him he didn't have to wear the men if he couldn't and that he could do as much or as little as he felt he could do, and that even if he is not wearing not wearing bogu he can have a lot of fun still in kendo, without it.

I just don't like all the contradictions I am seeing and all the lame vision excuses as to how he can't do something. "Can't" is a dirty word if you ask me. How do you know you can't if you don't at least make an effort and try? Sometimes, it takes a long time to learn something. And then sometimes, you find out after all the trying, that it really is not possible. But most of the time, things are possible if one tries and works hard at it. Heck, if I made all those vision excuses I'd get nowhere in life. And, I certainly wouldn't be able to hit a straight men ever and do anything that requires hard work because of bad vision. Those of us with bad vision must work harder just to do what normal sighted people do.

If he doesn't like it, too bad. Other people with bad vision would say the same thing.

He has also handed out a lot of stuff that makes no sense, considering what he says he can do in terms of MA. That is what my complaint is. If he is that concerned, he needs to take a video to his doctor and ask, instead of saying a bunch of stuff.

That is exactly what I would do.

And, if you all don't like my posts, that is ok. :) Nobody has to agree with each other.

Kaoru

[ilporko]

. "Can't" is a dirty word if you ask me. How do you know you can't if you don't at least make an effort and try? Sometimes, it takes a long time to learn something.
Kaoru

Or, you try it, get a hit to the head, do some damage, and end up with a big medical bill. There is such a thing as being cautious.

Whoever answered my question about not taking a strike to the ehad is spot on. Full-on kendo might not be a good idea.

By the way, Kaoru, I really do have those difficulties, and the vision ones are not directly related to hydrocephalus. I listed my MA curriculum, but there's a big difference beetwene hitting air at a point that is sort of at head height, more or less, and hitting the right place. Anyway, the major issue is men to my head, and that's been addressed.

[mononokifool]

I agree with you kaoru, he says he is so sick but then goes to explain how much harder HDGD is than kendo? then ask if he can do kendo?

[Kaoru]

Kaoru --- I think you've made your point and while Corwyn's suggestion is a good one, I don't use it.

You're beating a dead horse now.

You have a way of running off at the keyboard [as do I]...


Yes, I can see that now that you mention it... Thank you.


Here is the question he needs answered:


Wading through everything else that he's typing, this should be a simple answer from even a novice kenshi.
I actually did answer that(He'd asked it in another