Attitude

[Mugen]

I'm in kendo since year and a half now (so not much), and I've noticed some interesting things i'd like to discuss

My kendo is said by people in my dojo to be pretty elegant, I mean this is not to be pretentious, it's true that all my efforts when training are to maintain a correct attitude, being serious, concentrated, respectuous. So i'd say is like trying to act like a perfect kenshi, or some like a samurai. I give many importance to that, till now I thought if I just had the correct attitude the rest would come with practice, taittoku you know.
But when practicing with high level motodachi i feel anguish not to be as good as i expect to be, so my attitude tends to vanish and i lose concentration and commit errors. even worse, these last months i didn't felt i learned anything new.

So i've really been thinking about that, am I maybe luring myself? because somehow that attitude is a bit of acting, since even if it's totaly what I believe in, I only behave like this in the dojo... so it's not really me I think. In the dojo i'm serious concentrated and so on, but once out, i don't, too much party, not study which is my obligation... so on
so can I continue advancing in kendo this way??? or is it limitating me?

thanks to reply to this post even if i normally don't like to expose personal things i thought it'll be interesting to share the experience

[samurai80]

When you don't do well, this is when you learn the most. Kendo comes after your other responsibilities. Don't try to behave as a "samurai". Just show up to practice, show rei, and focus on doing good kendo. What you describe as attitude is really just pride and ego. You'll get over it eventually, that's part of the struggle while advancing in kendo.

[nodachi]

There is also the major issue of who you want to be, who you see yourself as, and what you really are...

Striving towards certain values is good since you have a goal as to where you would like to be...

Seeing that you are falling short of your ideal vision is normal...

Most people are hardest on themselves, more so than your sensei probably is. It is because we want to become stronger that we push ourselves, although frequently we push ourselves too hard.

If you can recognize that you are not practicing at a level that matches your ideal, this is not so bad, as long as you continue to work towards that ideal and don't be too harsh on yourself. Progress will come with time if you are patient and work hard long enough to achieve it.

[Kagerou]

Well it seems like you're well and truly into kendo. Don't fall into the pit of "I suck, I'm not getting anywhere". Like the others said we rarely meet our own expectations. Just go out and do your best.

After every class try to write down the things you did right and the things you feel you need improve. If you consistently write the same things then it will show you where you should focus yourself.

If your kote strike is your best and you always get it then that probably means your neglecting something else. If you find you're always just out of range when you strike men spend some time on your footwork.

Go into keiko with a purpose.

[ben]

Some good replies already.

All I would like to add is that your sense of not quite measuring up to where you thought you were is, itself, a sign of a sincere desire to improve.

This 'discomfort' you feel is good. Examine it.

b

[enkorat]

I think this is a very difficult thing, and I empathize with you very much.

I think the difficult point to realize is that "rei" and correct attitude is "easy" when you're well rested, happy, not sweating, and ... "fresh". To paraphrase an American historical figure, its easy to be a "sunshine" kendoist.

When "rei" is hard is when in your heart you don't want to do anything related to rei. Whether because you've been beaten, particularly been beaten by methods you don't agree with, or when someone yells at you, or when an instructor has knocked you on your butt, or when you're tired, exhausted, distracted, or unhappy. When in your heart all you want to do is throw down your shinai and walk away and never come back, you master your reaction and move beyond that moment.

We are not perfect people, nor is bushido or the ideals that we pursue through kendo designed to make us perfect or to make us not feel anger, disappointment, frustration or bad emotions.

Its when those emotions smack you in the face during kendo that you have a strategy to deal with them in a constructive manner.

For me this is one of the hardest things that I've had to deal with in kendo, as I am a very emotional person.

Good luck

[Mugen]

thank you all very much for the answers
I've been thinking about, i'll follow the advises, noting why I do when finishing classes seems great idea, and that about pride hurt me, so it must be true i've to work that... I considered also the other points, finally maybe what i'm doing is a lac of respect, because i just realised i don't really do rei correctly because of real respect to other kendoka but just to show i work my kendo, and since rei is part of it... maybe that has to do with my personality
so thank you for the answers, i think what i have to do is just thinking less xD and practicing more, also not have fear of errors because it's true you learn more when you commit more
not easy to apply theory and being sincere, also kendo is so different that the other things i do in my life, it's just hard and painfull but extremelly satisfactory... maybe i give it too much importance cause of that, will try also to concentrate in my studies
thanks for the support, i needed it

[Reversal Super]

Regarding attitude, the two things to keep in mind are:
1) Kendo is a reflection of your character
2) Kendo is a way to improve yourself

When ego is a problem in kendo, it is often because people pursue kendo for ego-related reasons: they want to beat others, they want to impress others, etc. If instead you approach kendo with the mindset of simply improving yourself, ego is a non-issue. You do not lose face when you are struck, because by being struck you have learned something, and practice is always rewarding regardless of the outcome. Similarly, "rei" cannot be an act. If you think that your rei is just acting or "putting on a show", that is not rei, and there is no purpose in doing it except to fool others and improve your ego. Rather, you must genuinely feel respect and gratitute for your peers and instructors - especially when they strike you. Bowing, saying thank you, etc. are merely ways to express your respect and gratitude, so if you do not have the feeling, then there is no rei - there cannot be rei.

Another way to think about this: if you do things differently based on who is watching you, your attitude is wrong.

As always, IMHO.

[Mugen]

but isn't improving myself some kind of ego?? shouldn't I forget about amelliorate and just practice?? just because i feel satisfaction after?
also it's true, i know i really due respect for all that make kendo possible to me
if you do things differently based on who is watching you, your attitude is wrong - thx

[enkorat]

Well....

To do just "reiho" without the underlying intention of "reigi" isn't so good, I agree.

I think its normal to feel disappointed after having lost. "Losing" can mean very many different things, losing control of a situation, being beaten by a senior by a lot.

I think feeling this is a natural, normal part of kendo because its a natural normal part of being a considerate person. If you strive not to feel this disappointment at all, you eventually become a robot who only does kendo because its something to do. You have no purpose, motivation, or reason to improve. You also have no way of empathizing with your fellow kendoists when you see them in a tight spot, and you could become a cruel person.

I think the difference in attitude comes with how you deal with disappointment. If you say "it is the senior/sensei's fault and not my problem, and I don't need to improve", then I do think that its a question of protecting your pride, and not seeing the flaw within yourself.

I also think that thinking "I am a horrible person who is not worth doing
kendo" is also too much of a wrong attitude in the other way, because you don't believe in yourself. If you don't believe in yourself, your instruction, and your training, you will always lose.

I think the way to think about this is "wow, I lost, I don't like this feeling...why did I lose? What am I doing wrong? What do I change in order to reduce this from happening again?"

Believe me, in order to be a senior and having to be the person who shows them their flaw is also not an easy thing to do. Its not an easy thing to see the disappointment written in someone's face. It takes a lot of effort to actually show someone their flaws instead of just telling them.

Thats why I thank my seniors and instructors, because if they didn't care they wouldn't try.

Does that make sense?

[turboyoshi]

but isn't improving myself some kind of ego??

No, this is not the same kind of ego that we identify with arrogance. It's ok, and I would say even desirable, to think "I can do better than this" or "I can be stronger than I am today."

The trouble begins when you start comparing yourself to another person, rather than to your own past performance.

Focus on your own kendo = good ego.
Critisizing (or comparing yourself favorably to) someone else's kendo = bad ego.
Does that help?

sean

[Shazzanzzz]

Kendo should be fun. Do kendo if it's fun for you, don't do it if it's not.

I have a lot of fun losing points to people better than me, because it's like a light bulb lighting up over my head. I have fun competing with people around my level. I enjoying teaching my kohais also because when they improve, I get a sense of accomplishment.

I have seen a lot of people having problem with losing because they think of it as losing a fight/duel or something and take results of things too seriously. I mean, from your post, I think you're just talking about losing to your seniors in practice. It's nothing to feel bad about. They're supposed to beat you, hehe. Just learn from it. You would always rather that happens than losing in shiai to someone your level anyways.

[Reversal Super]

Perhaps my previous post was overly complicated; maybe this will simply things. When I practice kendo, what I care about is whether I am better than I was yesterday - or a month ago, or a year ago. I don't care at all whether I am better than X person, or whether I have won Y tournaments. Winning or losing doesn't mean anything except that, by striking the opponent I am showing them their opening or weakness, and by striking me, the opponent is instructing me in my weaknesses.

Think about what you're doing keiko for: are you trying to show others how good you are at kendo - or are you trying to learn something? Do you hesitate to practice with certain people because you feel embarassed or disappointed when you lose?

As for improving yourself vs. ego-building, the difference is subtle. For the former, we say, "I want to be better than I am now". For the latter, we say, "I want to be better than everyone else".

As always, IMHO.

[bobdonny]

but isn't improving myself some kind of ego??

No because, the more you learn the more you realise you know nothing.

You should never have a big ego, because you should never leave your dojo feeling like you know it all, or even a considerable amount! You should always leave with an area you need to work on, always.

[michaelm]

But when practicing with high level motodachi i feel anguish not to be as good as i expect to be...

Remember that it is also the senior's job to push the junior beyond his comfort zone. If that doesn't happen, then neither of you are improving.

-michael

[ne0r]

Many things to learn from this thread, also for me.

I also feel a bit disappointed after class when I didn't hit enough men or the men I hit were not how I imagined them (This situation occured to me very often, or even most of the practises in the last time). I try to think more about the men I landed even if they were not 100percently beautiful. But now I fear that because of this I might lack a bit of 'uncomfort' so that I don't work on myself enough. Hm, even though, honestly I think that I work enough on myself.
Oh, and about ego: I realize that I should think more about comparing my own performance to my former performance, not to other's. I'm still the "bad ego"-guy ;D

Many things to work on...

Have I confused anyone? xD Sorry to interrupt the thread, but I thought this would be a good opportunity to let others examine my attitude, too.

Besides, it is very interesting that you can/should use the feeling of discomfort to work on yourself. Didn't think about it that way yet.

[ne0r]

Hm, or to say this more concretely:

After practise, should I feel satisfied yet still be conscious of the fact that there is still a lot to work on, or simply feel unsatisfied/frustrated?

[enkorat]

Hm, or to say this more concretely:

After practise, should I feel satisfied yet still be conscious of the fact that there is still a lot to work on, or simply feel unsatisfied/frustrated?

I think its more like not to get complacent after a good day and keep going to practice, and not to get discouraged on a bad day, and keep going to practice.

[Reversal Super]

After practice, the only thing we should think about is what we learned, and what we need to work on. The only time we should feel disappointed is when we can't think of anything we learned, or anything specific to work on (not just a general feeling of, "I have to get better"), because that means we didn't practice diligently enough and therefore wasted not only our time, but our sensei's time. And there should never be any reason to feel satisfied; improvement is an endless road, and each step reveals only more steps in the distance.

As always, IMHO.

[Sparv]

The only time we should feel disappointed is when we can't think of anything we learned

I sometimes do not really try to improve my kendo when I practice. There can be many reasons: once I was quite sick, another i had an awfully bad day, and the last time I was just totally destroyed after a very hard rowing training. You surely know those days: it's when you have to push yourself really hard to put the bogu bag in your car. Those day I just enjoy kendo, and practice at my level without trying to improve: it's more doing what I can do more than doing something to get better.
I never feel disappointed after those training. i didn't learned anything, but it's better than un-learning because I didn't go, and I love kendo.
But 9,5/10 of the times I'm trying to work on something (uchi and footwork right now). I'm trying to be ready for shodan next year; i'm not sure I can do it, but I try!

[Reversal Super]

You can always improve something - kendo is not only technique. If you are physically 'destroyed', but you can maintain your spirit and hit straight, then we would call that an improvement. The more tired and weak you feel, the stronger your spirit and more focused your mind has to be to compensate. Practice is not just an activity - the very definition of 'practice' requires that you engage in the activity for the purpose of improvement. Without this aim to improve - in some way, any way - means that you cannot call it 'practice' anymore; it just becomes an activity, like washing dishes or playing video games.

As always, IMHO.

[Sparv]

You can always improve something - kendo is not only technique. If you are physically 'destroyed', but you can maintain your spirit and hit straight, then we would call that an improvement.

Hummmph... I'm gonna think about it. Are my "aimless" practice useful in the "spirit" way?

Lots to think about tonight... today's keiko, tomorrow's one and now this...

[enkorat]

I am going to say something rather odd...

Once we had a Japanese student who was in the business school here who had done kendo in high school. He was a nice guy with ferociously fast kendo, and I thought he was cool.

Just before going back to Japan at the end of year party, he said to us "I've learned to have fun doing kendo , doing it here with you guys"

So I took away from that exchange that you can also improve on enjoying a moment, and that enjoying kendo was an important part of the whole equation...

[ne0r]

This is what I thought about. I think that I tend to be caught up in details which are not always important and that somehow can destroy moments of pleasure, not only in kendo.

I also realized that sometimes I measure my succes by the number of hits I land in jigeiko... without thinking of the things I learned and the things I can do better. I think that I think too much about not important little things and do not reflect enough about the crucial parts.

Hm. Just wanted to spam you with an attempt of little self-analysis.

[Mugen]

thanks ne0r i was quite unconfortable jsut speaking about myself x)
and it's great to see others are in symilar situations, thank you all for your opinion
I finally though about all this, and i think my problem is I make kendo alone. I really see kendo as a budo, some way to improve yourself, not just a sport, not at all in fact. and i have the sensation i share this idea with a too little few people, these people i'm not sincere with because i think they see kendo like something cool to do, just because they saw it on anime... so i just ignore that and try to make my best even if they don't understand that (or at least that's what i think), and that's when i feel i'm being false. also, when i train with people i know they share my ideals is when i'm nervous, because i want them to see i'm not doing kendo just for the sport side.
so i think i should interact with people i train with, in order to work together for that, to show them even more my lacs, opinions and errors so they can correct me, that's why i started this thread i think

[ne0r]

Perhaps it only looks like the people only do kendo for the "sports-side"?

On the other hand, where are you training? I can imagine that especially younger people can have a more "sporty" attitude.

The only thing I relized about being nervous is that it doesn't really matter. "Keep on practising" and "More keiko" are good solutions for a whole lot of problems ;D Especially for people like me who tend to think too much (well, that's what I think about myself - I might be mistaken, of course).
By the way: Does kendo count as a religion?

[Gideon]

By the way: Does kendo count as a religion?

Sneaky! That could be a rather involved question for some - so if you really want to discuss it, a new thread might be in order - after a search for old threads on the topic. If you do go ahead with it - the flames section is likely to be the appropriate place judging by recent history.

[Shazzanzzz]

Does kendo count as a religion?

Short answer is no.

Daoist principles isn't religious at its core. It's philosophical.

Although I hope no kendo people are like this.... Human has a habbit of turning philosophy into beliefs into religion into superstition.

Are we idol worshipping when we bow down to a hachidan sensei? haha

[enkorat]

Well....

I'm going to offer a different view. Obviously you think that "sports kendo" is a bad thing, and that "pure kendo" is the way to go.

But let me ask you this then, and not to be confrontational about it. Only "improving yourself" could be seen as an incredibly selfish, self-centered and egotistical exercise. After all, it is a very very short road from "I'm here to improve myself", to "I'm only here for myself", to "I only care about myself"

A lot of people on this board have pointed out to me that the sports aspects of kendo is a very important part of the whole picture. Namely, having consideration towards your team mates (empathy from understanding everyone struggles with their own problems rather than schadenfreude or scorn, appreciation for another's success, and not feeling envy or jealousy), working together towards a common goal, helping each other during training, instilling a friendly rivalry so that all may improve, comraderie, understanding the idea behind winning and losing, and bringing together like-minded people to share in an activity.

If you think about it, we almost always practice Kendo together, and rarely is it a solitary activity.

Of course people can take things too far with sports, but the opposite extreme of "pure martial art" is not much fun either. Lots of very self centered, very holier than thou, isolated, unsocial people who believe that "fun" and "martial arts" are two words that should never be uttered in the same breath.

[Gideon]

+rep for using the word schadenfreude coherently in a sentence. For those, like myself who have no clue what schadenfreude means (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/schadenfreude).

[ne0r]

Sorry, enkorat, I can't give you any more reputation... ;D

If I could I would give it to you for this very well put thought on the sport and art aspect of kendo and of course also for the logical and orthographically correct use of "Schadenfreude" as opposed to, for example, the word "Shredenfreud" used by someone, who's name I won't tell (absenteekendoka).

[Reversal Super]

Enkorat, you have forgotten rei. The selfishness and self-centeredness that you are concerned with can only occur when there is no rei. Kendo without rei is not kendo - it is just hitting people with sticks.

Thus, I actually think it's a pretty incredible leap from "I'm here to improve myself" to "I only care about myself". Improving yourself isn't exclusive of anything else - in no way does improving yourself preclude caring about others, or having fun. You can improve yourself, improve others, and have fun, all at the same time. What I think makes Kendo (and sports, martial arts, etc.) different from mundane, everyday activities is that improvement is the focus. Whereas in other activities you can have fun without improvement, you cannot do that in kendo practice and still call it "kendo practice".

I think it's rather obvious to anyone who has practiced kendo for any meaningful length of time that kendo is built around community. It is axiomatic that you cannot learn kendo on your own, so the ability to improve yourself is tied directly to the willingness and ability of others to teach you and practice with you; in such a way, each practitioner relies on others and is similarly relied upon, and in this way we all improve together, as one community. You cannot practice kendo with the aim to improve yourself without simultaneously assuming the responsibility of improving others - the very act of practicing with your best ability allows others to learn from you as you learn from them. It is, then, our responsibility to strive for improvement - not at the detriment of others, but for the benefit of ourselves, others, and the community as a whole. A community of people who do not improve achieves nothing. As a result, I think that not striving to improve is as much a disservice to the community and the art as simply not participating.

In short, I think that as long as we keep the feeling of respect and gratitude towards others (rei), and focus on improving ourselves, everything else naturally falls into place.

As always, IMHO

[enkorat]

Of course I agree with your assessment that kendo without rei is "hitting people with sticks"

In essence I was trying to elucidate the extremes of both positions, since "sport" was being deried I chose to look at the same extreme in the other direction.

Believe me that I really do believe in rei, and the idea of kendo as michi and the philosophical underpinnings of kendo.

But there are some, usually under the banner of "pure martial art" who scoff the whole ideology of "do", sport and indeed "rei" as a "wholly modern Japanese invention/insertion" representing an "viewpoint of orthodoxy" "bent on moving true martial arts as represented by 'bujutsu', into a modern sport system of "budo".

I know people who look at martial arts from the wholly self centered perspective of "this is my journey and I am only here for myself". I don't agree with this view much, but I wanted to highlight that there are both points of view represented here.

[Mugen]

so the point is improving with others that share the same goal keeping in mind it's your own individual work to improve, that's why, cause they follow the same path you empathyse and show respect (so that's rei), and cause you too work for it must show the best of you (such as being competitive, the sport side)
ain't it?

[hyuna]

In essence I was trying to elucidate the extremes of both positions, since "sport" was being deried I chose to look at the same extreme in the other direction.

I regret to say that I've known a few people that I think did not have any concern for helping others and were, instead, rather self-absorbed in their practice.

However, the majority of those people by far were sports-minded, not "budo"-minded.

The problem is that you cannot see in the shiai-jo who is concerned for the wellfare of the dojo as a whole and who is not. Sometimes people view teaching and helping beginners as a waste of time that could otherwise be spent improving their ability to score ippon in shiai. And it's true, you develop more skill practicing with sensei than teaching a beginner reiho.

In my opinion, the problem with "pure martial arts" is not the kind of arrogance that you described. I think the best thing about the competitive mindset is that it is very honest and direct. In the end, one person wins and one person loses and it has everything to do with hard practical things and not theory or principle. I think the problem is that without competition, it is easy, for example, to start to believe that chudan always beats jodan because water beats fire. Having jodan sometimes win keeps us honest in a way that academics and theorticians don't have to be. The kamae example is a little arcane, but I think the same point applies in many ways when it comes to our "shoulds" and "oughts."

[Kagerou]

And it's true, you develop more skill practicing with sensei than teaching a beginner reiho.


Really? I'd say you don't truly understand something until you can teach it.
Also, I've had lots of beginners (karate) come up with some pretty good ideas and explanations that you don't often hear.

Just my 2yen

[hyuna]

Really? I'd say you don't truly understand something until you can teach it.
I agree with you.

However, while the angle of the hem of my hakama and the angle of my ritsurei might be very carefully examined in shinsa, I have never found that it has had much effect on my shiai performance. Of course, the care that goes into these things affect my shiai performance, but that's quite beside the point since the same level of care goes into it regardless of who I am talking to (or not talking to, as the case may be).

That's just my experience.

[enkorat]

Okay, so since I've been trying to avoid saying it outright I guess I'll state my viewpoint more plainly, because I think we're having fun arguing over the same side.

I think that in a very broad sense, in order to get the most out of kendo, in the end it boils down to things like

1. Honesty. Not just "I cannot tell a lie" sort of way, but honesty towards others and yourself in training. Not in an esoteric way either, more like being honest when someone gets a point on you, and accepting that the person got the point on you, and not immediately start making excuses like "oh he's being more shiai oriented." Things like when something bad happens, being honest about it and admitting to yourself that you just got you ass handed to you, instead of hiding behind something... The reverse is sort of true for some people. When you win, its okay to feel good about it, instead of saying "oh he let me win".

2. Some sort of combination of empathy/respect/compassion/humility. Its not like the touchy feely psychology word, or some public service propaganda advertisement that tells you to give up your bus seat for the old lady who's standing, and its not just "rei" as in the bow or the reiho as in the degree of the bow. Behind all the fancy bowing eventually is the idea that we're all sort of in the same road and we all have to climb over the same hills. One day you're the one at the bottom of the hill climbing, and there are people ahead of you either cheering you on or (more traditionally) yelling at you to go faster, and one day you're the one looking down the hill doing the yelling and cheering. And then you think "oh wow I've come really far" looking down the hill, and then you turn around and go "oh well I have a long way still to go"

My sensei, when he saw someone (like me) struggle over a particular metaphorical hill didn't berate me for being weak or not trying hard enough. All he said was "its hard isn't it?". That moment to me represents something in Kendo that I can't really describe with words very well. I wish I had that sort of way of conveying gravity. Maybe I should talk less.

3. I think the last idea is the hardest, and that relates to how very limited we are influencing training of others. Kendo is about self improvement, or more broadly just "getting better" at "something". And that "something" is very individual and changes across different people and different goals. But in my opinion a lot of the "self" improvement comes from the fact that the only true influence we have over people is with ourselves. In my experience, we have very little true influence on the direction of other people's decisions and lives.

This sounds maybe cynical, depressing, or maybe buddhist. It might sound like a big deal, but say when that girl step in front of you in the line up line and you know you out rank her (ie. the thread about "a question of rank")... does it really matter to your kendo?

Now I'm not saying that any of these things should be taken to extremes. I'm not sure that all of them apply outside of kendo. If you're being outright abused or defrauded, I don't think its appropriate to apply the idea of "I should ignore it and focus on my own training" Sometimes "rei" and "compassion" restrains "honesty". Can you really end practice by going up to your sensei and saying "wow you really sucked today, are you feeling well?" No... that would be bad.

I guess its my fault for trying to distill it down to one or two factors. Upon reflection, I'm not sure it is. I don't know if we can call it "sport" attitude, "budo attitude", "orthodox attitude", "true attitude". Attitude in Kendo is more than one thing.

I feel like I'm saying a lot of words and not really sure if I'm making a clear point....

Maybe I should just say "mmm....its very difficult, yes?"

[ne0r]

Hehe. I think you have done quite a hard job in describing what you think. Yes, this is very difficult; I think so, too.

In the end I think words don't matter. I believe we all know the feeling and the points you are describing, otherwise, would we do kendo? Hm, perhaps there are some that would.

Hm. Too much thinking, need more keiko...

[Mugen]

In the end I think words don't matter
Yes, i think too, words are limitating the ideas we're transmiting, but anyway you can "feel" what you mean
i'm impacient to train this afternoon and see if all that reflection has changed my kendo

[ne0r]

Good luck and have fun!